Lenihan and noonan unite to tackle "begrudgers" calling for further paycuts for TDS

jonsnow

Great to finally see a bit of crossparty support for our poor beleaguered political classes.Pensioners are apparently shocked by a TDs lowly stipend:eek:

So L'oreal Lenihan still unrepentant.I don,t know what hes blabbing on about to be honest.Once you,ve bankrupted the country its pretty self evident that you haven,t done a very good job.How he can defend his still enormous salary given his awful job performance and the ease with which he cuts the pay of vulnerable people is beyond me.

And Noonan appears to be if anything even more detached from reality if thats possible.I guess we cant expect any real change to our political system so just some deckchair rearranging.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1210/1224285193774.html

Lenihan criticises 'begrudgery' over Taoiseach's salary cut


MINISTER for Finance Brian Lenihan criticised the “begrudgery” towards the decision to cut the Taoiseach’s salary by €14,000, the Tánaiste’s by €11,000 and Ministers’ pay by €10,000.

Mr Lenihan said he could not let that begrudgery go unchallenged.

“Let me be clear, governing this country is a difficult and complex job, both in good times and in the very bad times we are experiencing now. Those who do carry out these tasks in the public interest should have an appropriate payment for it.”

Mr Lenihan was introducing legislation to give effect to those cuts and to the €1 drop in the minimum wage to €7.65 along with the 4 per cent reduction in public sector pay.

He also said that a number of departmental secretaries general whose salary would otherwise have exceeded the Taoiseach, have volunteered to take an additional reduction in their pay to bring them into line with Brian Cowen’s salary.

Mr Lenihan hit out at some sections of the media that promoted the view, he said, that “no public servant, including office holders, should be paid a salary that reflects the burdens of their jobs”.

Fine Gael spokesman Michael Noonan said no government would have moral authority, after introducing cuts in payments to blind persons, carer’s allowance, widows’ pensions and allowances to the disabled, if they had not touched their own pay.

The pay of TDs, he said, had been cut by 28 per cent in the past two years.

It was not correct, as the public seemed to believe because it had not been included in the Minister’s speech, that TDs were unaffected by the Budget.

A new PRSI rate of 4 per cent would apply to the pay of all TDs, and, when this was taken with the decision already made to abolish increments to those who had qualified for them, the loss would be about €10,000.

“Some deputies, if elected to the next Dáil, will certainly receive €10,000 less than they are receiving at present after the cuts,” he added.

“There are issues here as well, and I wonder what the future generation of deputies will do.”

Current take-home pay seemed to be about €4,000 monthly for TDs, depending on their tax, said Mr Noonan.

“If another €10,000 per annum is taken out in March or April, after the general election, they will be going home with €3,200 or €3,300, which seems tight enough for deputies with families at expensive ages in secondary school and for whom they will need to pay fees in university,” he added.

“I am not beating my own drum: thank God, my adult children are now self-sufficient and are off the payroll for the time being at least.

“However, I know many of my colleagues have very heavy personal expenses.”

Last week, said Mr Noonan, one of his colleagues had to meet about 300 pensioners, who challenged him on his pay.

“He produced a payslip from his pocket, and they were absolutely amazed that a gross salary of approximately €8,000 ended up being slightly less than €4,000 in his case,” he added.

“There was no more argument when he showed it around. He advised a group of us that we should never go out without a payslip in our pockets.”

later12

I know it is not a popular thing to say, but actually I understand where Michael Noonan is coming from on this one. I think that it would be wrong to suggest that deputies' pay, as it currently stands is disproportionately generous.
It is a high profile career which everybody signs up for - nobody is denying that.
However, the level of personal and sometimes vitriolic attacks on deputies and their integrity is at an all new low and i am not sure that is something they all signed up for.
What they did all sign up for, in part, was the salary, and that has been seriously reduced both through taxation and pay cuts, like the rest of the population. It would be wrong to deny that they are not sharing the pain of their equivalent earning counterparts in private industry. It would also be wrong to suggest that they are all enjoying some high profile celebrity lifestyle who sleep on bundles of cash and drink champagne for breakfast.
To put it into perspective, I, as I'm sure we all do, know people who work in far less demanding roles with less responsibility, earning similar wages to our current batch of Dail deputies.

Having said all of that, I do think that our recently gaffe prone minister for Finance has a bit of a nerve to speak out like this, considering his pay packet is still extremely generous compared to minimum wage rates and he can have no understanding of the pain being felt by that kind of earner.

donkey balls

later10 wrote: »

I know it is not a popular thing to say, but actually I understand where Michael Noonan is coming from on this one. I think that it would be wrong to suggest that deputies' pay, as it currently stands is disproportionately generous.
It is a high profile career which everybody signs up for - nobody is denying that.
However, the level of personal and sometimes vitriolic attacks on deputies and their integrity is at an all new low and i am not sure that is something they all signed up for.
What they did all sign up for, in part, was the salary, and that has been seriously reduced both through taxation and pay cuts, like the rest of the population. It would be wrong to deny that they are not sharing the pain of their equivalent earning counterparts in private industry. It would also be wrong to suggest that they are all enjoying some high profile celebrity lifestyle who sleep on bundles of cash and drink champagne for breakfast.
To put it into perspective, I, as I'm sure we all do, know people who work in far less demanding roles with less responsibility, earning similar wages to our current batch of Dail deputies.

Having said all of that, I do think that our recently gaffe prone minister for Finance has a bit of a nerve to speak out like this, considering his pay packet is still extremely generous compared to minimum wage rates and he can have no understanding of the pain being felt by that kind of earner.

Tell me your taking the mick with the above post, I know people working in the private sector who have more responsibilty than any TD could ever have earning in and around the same salary.
Except for unvouched expenses and in the private sector if you f**k up the buck stops at you, I have yet to see a TD/minister take responsiblity for there actions,As for them having to pay for 3rd level fees for their children what about the people who are on short time or had a major drop in salary trying to pay for their childrens education wether it be primary/secoundary/third level.;)

sollar

Well what ever way they want to dress it up they are paid better than german, uk, french, swedish etc politicians and have no business being so.

flutered

no mention of unvouched expenses, if they cannot send their kids to collage what chance have the lower incomed.

Mr.Micro

I think it would have gone down an awful lot better with the public if Lenny had cut TD's salary by a good 10% despite the fact of there being only about 160 of them or so......as Tesco says "every little helps". So it has not gone down well that TD's keep their big salaries intact and cut the poor.

€14000, and €10,000 cuts for the Taoiseach and Ministers means nothing as these sums come off the upper rates of their pay and would go in tax anyway so they will probably still get the same net salary. I think it is incredible that Lenny and Biffo et al went on and on about this budget to make savings but they keep their own money intact. The hypocrisy is truly breath taking, then again we have not got to this stage in financial ruin because of wise or just Fianna Failure decisions.

Bob the Builder

later10 wrote: »

I know it is not a popular thing to say, but actually I understand where Michael Noonan is coming from on this one. I think that it would be wrong to suggest that deputies' pay, as it currently stands is disproportionately generous.
It is a high profile career which everybody signs up for - nobody is denying that.
However, the level of personal and sometimes vitriolic attacks on deputies and their integrity is at an all new low and i am not sure that is something they all signed up for.
What they did all sign up for, in part, was the salary, and that has been seriously reduced both through taxation and pay cuts, like the rest of the population. It would be wrong to deny that they are not sharing the pain of their equivalent earning counterparts in private industry. It would also be wrong to suggest that they are all enjoying some high profile celebrity lifestyle who sleep on bundles of cash and drink champagne for breakfast.
To put it into perspective, I, as I'm sure we all do, know people who work in far less demanding roles with less responsibility, earning similar wages to our current batch of Dail deputies.

You gotta be kidding me..?

Mister men

I do begrudge them. They should feel lucky to have a job.

pigeonbutler

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I think it would have gone down an awful lot better with the public if Lenny had cut TD's salary by a good 10% despite the fact of there being only about 160 of them or so......as Tesco says "every little helps". So it has not gone down well that TD's keep their big salaries intact and cut the poor.

€14000, and €10,000 cuts for the Taoiseach and Ministers means nothing as these sums come off the upper rates of their pay and would go in tax anyway so they will probably still get the same net salary. I think it is incredible that Lenny and Biffo et al went on and on about this budget to make savings but they keep their own money intact. The hypocrisy is truly breath taking, then again we have not got to this stage in financial ruin because of wise or just Fianna Failure decisions.

It's slightly disturbing how little people understand about tax.... 14k less salary for the Taoiseach means a a little over 7k of a deduction in take home pay given our 52% marginal rate. How someone could earn less and have the same take home pay is totally baffling

Mr.Micro

pigeonbutler wrote: »

It's slightly disturbing how little people understand about tax.... 14k less salary for the Taoiseach means a a little over 7k of a deduction in take home pay given our 52% marginal rate. How someone could earn less and have the same take home pay is totally baffling

7K less big deal from his bloated salary I am sure he will make it up somewhere.....it does not lessen my point and he is not taking 14K from his net pay.

Liam Byrne

jonsnow wrote: »

“If another €10,000 per annum is taken out in March or April, after the general election, they will be going home with €3,200 or €3,300, which seems tight enough for deputies with families at expensive ages in secondary school and for whom they will need to pay fees in university,” he added.

I have better things to do than read any more waffle and spin from Lenihan, but I'm stunned at Noonan!

Does he really think that €3,200 a month - NET - isn't enough to live on ? :eek:

I've just lost respect and hope.

later12

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I have better things to do than read any more waffle and spin from Lenihan, but I'm stunned at Noonan!

Does he really think that €3,200 a month - NET - isn't enough to live on ? :eek:

I've just lost respect and hope.

My parents had 3 of us in college at one stage... all in different universities costing them about 600 euro per week - and that's just in rent and living costs, not student fees or tickets home, etc. Combined, they would have been on similar or higher wages to a TD - and they seriously struggled. I don't know how they did it and still managed to run their own lives, cars, bills etc.
I realsie there are people on social welfare etc on far worse cases but is not a lot of money if you are trying to support your kids, educate and provide for them - especially in cases like this where you are not entitled to grants or any significant social support.

Sir Oxman

An adequate wage pertaining to the level of responsibility the job entails is fair.

It's the attendant UNVOUCHED expenses, clocking on money and stipends for sitting on committes that make me sick. Oh, and the extremely generous golden handhsakes and pensions which weren't mentioned by Sir Lie-a-lot and Mr Noonan.

By the way, I think a majority of TDs elected to stay on unvouched expenses, it's a little lower than vouched but the very fact they do not need to provide receipts for expenses says it all to me.

And with most jobs comes accountability - in the real world

RDM_83 again

later10 wrote: »

all in different universities costing them about 600 euro per week - and that's just in rent and accomodation.

You must have stayed in some seriously nice accommodation for a student (that or central London) cos with me and my siblings never paid more than 130 at the very max and that spans a more than a decade in dublin between us. But I do get what you on about about the cost to parents.

IMO they should look at the take home pay of MP's and the focus put on their expenses, especially as the Irish minimum wage now reaches close to parity with the UK

NewHillel

gambiaman wrote: »

An adequate wage pertaining to the level of responsibility the job entails is fair.

It's the attendant UNVOUCHED expenses, clocking on money and stipends for sitting on committes that make me sick. Oh, and the extremely generous golden handhsakes and pensions which weren't mentioned by Sir Lie-a-lot and Mr Noonan.

By the way, I think a majority of TDs elected to stay on unvouched expenses, it's a little lower than vouched but the very fact they do not need to provide receipts for expenses says it all to me.

And with most jobs comes accountability - in the real world

I agree with all of the above. I don't think that the basic salary is that excessive, we do want high calibre public representatives, after all. Its all the perks, not to mention double jobbing in some cases, that are over the top. There is simply no excuse for the level of expenses, or the add-ons for doing work that should be part of their basic job description. As for the termination payments...:(

later12

RDM_83 again wrote: »

You must have stayed in some seriously nice accommodation for a student (that or central London) cos with me and my siblings never paid more than 130 at the very max and that spans a more than a decade in dublin between us. But I do get what you on about about the cost to parents.

Yes sorry that was a typo, I meant 600 euro per week for three kids to cover all rental and living costs - though this did not cover unforeseen expenditure like books and materials, tickets, student registration fees, and so on.

Elevator

its not their wages as much as their flippin expenses!!

the bloody cheek

imme

The thread title is a bit misleading OP. They didn't unite to agree or disagree on anything. They are of the same opinion on something.

I think TD's should be paid appropriately that's all.
The real problem is that we have too many TD's.

For a country of our size we don't need 166 TD's, we have at least 50 too manuy for a country with a population of our size.

Less TD's will I believe mean better quality TD's.

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I have better things to do than read any more waffle and spin from Lenihan, but I'm stunned at Noonan!

Does he really think that €3,200 a month - NET - isn't enough to live on ? :eek:

I've just lost respect and hope.

What does your quote mean?
Will this thread affect the way you vote in the next election?

Liam Byrne

Wide Road wrote: »

What does your quote mean?
Will this thread affect the way you vote in the next election?

Possibly.

Noonan has been very strong on realism in terms of how most normal people (those who aren't long-term social welfare leeches and those who aren't making more than €50,000) have been shafted by FF to pay the bills of those who got greedy and gambled.

However if Noonan reckons that someone can't live on €3,200 - net - then he's a little out of step, particularly when that statement doesn't factor in the phenomenal "expense" regime.

The only saving grace is that if he believes someone can't live on that, then it might filter down to us ordinary folk.

So it's skewed my opinion of him, definitely, but he may still have a point given the cost of living combined with taxes and stealth taxes in this country.

Liam Byrne

imme wrote: »

Less TD's will I believe mean better quality TD's.

Only if the system is reformed. Less TDs in a corrupt setup where dynasties and dodgy people gain/are given priority will mean less decent TDs while the others thrive.

Einhard

I don't think it's the affront that some people claim that our TDs should be paid well. There was a man on the Frontline last week who claimed that the Taoiseach and ministers should reduce their salaries to €500 a week, which would put them just above the minimum wage. Obviously an idiotic suggestion, but one that gets a surprising amount of support out there. Also, TDs work extremely hard for what they earn. I was listening to Pat Kenny last week, and they were talking about the ridiculous demands made on TDs, with people calling on Christmas Day demanding that their pipes be fixed etc. Obviously there needs to be a complete overhaul of the system to stamp out such things, but one can't blame TDs for working within the system as it currently stands, ie responding to the wishes and demands of those who vote them in. It's untrue and unfair therefore to state that TDs are lazy, sit on their arse all day etc. If yht local TD doesn;t run and jump and respond to the demands of his constituents, then he won't be TD for long more.

Which brings me to my second, quick, point- they aren't lucy to have jobs as someone claimed. They all went through a process of election which is far more rigorous and demanding that any application process I even went through for a job. I don't see how it can be claimed, in a democratic society, that a member of Parliament, is "lucky2 to have their seat.

Having said all that, the extra-salary renumeration of TDs and senators is far too high, and it's this I think that stokes most resentment. I heard a pensions expert outline recently that a minister, retiring at 50 after 10 years service, would cost the taxpayer €6.8 million in pension payments. That equates to a state contribution of €36k every month of that ten years. Now that's obscene. As is the concept of unvouched expenses, and the myriad other claims that can be out in without proper scrutiny.

So, my 10c in a nutshell- TDs salaries aren't as inordinately high as some people claim, but expenses and pensions are way out of sync and need substantial reform.

Einhard

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Only if the system is reformed. Less TDs in a corrupt setup where dynasties and dodgy people gain/are given priority will mean less decent TDs while the others thrive.

Dynasties thrive because people vote for them.

jimmycrackcorm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Does he really think that €3,200 a month - NET - isn't enough to live on ? :eek:

It's not a huge gap when you consider what some families are getting on S/W income support when you factor in rent allowance etc.

Nobody is rich on a take-home pay of €3200.

Einhard

Liam Byrne wrote: »

However if Noonan reckons that someone can't live on €3,200 - net - then he's a little out of step, particularly when that statement doesn't factor in the phenomenal "expense" regime.

The only saving grace is that if he believes someone can't live on that, then it might filter down to us ordinary folk.

So it's skewed my opinion of him, definitely, but he may still have a point given the cost of living combined with taxes and stealth taxes in this country.

Of course it's possible to live on €3,200 net a month. But I think Noonan's point is that it's not the obscene amount that some people would make out. Also, it's a fairly large reduction on what they were previously getting. I don't think it's unreasonable to point out that TDs have taken substantial cuts to their wages. Of course, it's also entirely reasonable to point out that their pensions and expenses arrangements are still far too generous.

robbyvibes

While they are better paid compared to UK,French,Swedish,German,Spanish,Italian..etc

I think we can all agree, they are doing a spectacular job and Irish people should reward performance with an adequate salary.

anything less than €3000 a week would be an insult quite frankly.
you know, it's not easy putting your kids through college on a measly wage.

I thought the celtic tiger had seen an end to the irish begrudger, alas it is alive and well..

rightwingdub

They should have their pay cut by at least 20% and Cowen and his cabinet should have taken pay cuts of 52%. Come on the EU/IMF they should force radical surgery on the public sector and what our politicians are eraning especially. Its called fiscal rectitude.

beagle001

The crap Lenihan spouted about Cowen taking home a net of 90,000,the figure was supposed to sound reassuring,this is after his massive pension costs are taken out not to mention free reign of travel and expenses.
Sure he could just bank that and not have to touch it!
Ohh I forgot its those large mortgages on the investment properties that they have to pay back.

Liam Byrne

Einhard wrote: »

Of course it's possible to live on €3,200 net a month. But I think Noonan's point is that it's not the obscene amount that some people would make out.

It is when they're doing a ****e job and costing us an additional €22,000 per person.

Name one TD who has been worth that amount over the past 10 years ?

NewHillel

Einhard wrote: »

Of course it's possible to live on €3,200 net a month. But I think Noonan's point is that it's not the obscene amount that some people would make out. Also, it's a fairly large reduction on what they were previously getting. I don't think it's unreasonable to point out that TDs have taken substantial cuts to their wages. Of course, it's also entirely reasonable to point out that their pensions and expenses arrangements are still far too generous.

I agree with Michael Noonan, on this - its not an obscent amount. We don't want to get to a level where people of ambition and good repute no longer want to get elected. That would not help us, in any way. There are plenty other issues to be tackled, starting with unvouched expenses, walking about money and allowances for work that should form part of the basic job description.

Liam Byrne

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Nobody is rich on a take-home pay of €3200.

I'd be damn happy with that amount.

Einhard

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd be damn happy with that amount.

But that's not what he said. It's not an obscene amount to pay a member of a national parliament.