legitimate reasons

firefly08

I've been curious about this for a while: as we all know, you have to supply a reason for owning a gun when you apply for a license. Is there a list of acceptable reasons written down in legislation somewhere? Or is it just a matter of what the Guards find acceptable? Or is it the case that any legal purpose is sufficient?

kildare.17hmr

target shooting, hunting, vermin control. dont think there is any other reason you would need a gun in ireland

dCorbus

To be flippant about this, your reason is your reason and it must be a good reason.:rolleyes::D

There are "reasons" mentioned in the Commissioners Guidelines.

The primary main reasons for having a firearm are pretty obvious I would have thought:

1. Target Shooting at an Authorised Range / Club
2. Vermin Control
3. Hunting

(And maybe....4. Humane Dispatch for a Knacker / Vet / etc., but I think that comes under another "authorisation" other than the FAC, but I may be wrong on that)

Pretty much everyone intending to own a firearm falls (or should fall) under at least one (if not more) of the above categories. If you don't, I cannot see any other legitimate and lawful reason why you'd need a firearm?

firefly08

If you don't, I cannot see any other legitimate and lawful reason why you'd need a firearm?

This is exactly what I'm asking about - are "legitimate" and "lawful" the same thing? That is to say, is any lawful reason automatically acceptable for a license application?

For example: presumably, if hunting became illegal, then the next guy who writes "hunting" as his reason for wanting to own a firearm is going to be refused. Is that correct?

I am just curious to know how the law works in this regard.

johnner1

dCorbus wrote: »

To be flippant about this, your reason is your reason and it must be a good reason.:rolleyes::D


(And maybe....4. Humane Dispatch for a Knacker :

Defending ones property was the first thing i taught of when i read this, i taught for was (of):p:D

kildare.17hmr

firefly08 wrote: »

For example: presumably, if hunting became illegal, then the next guy who writes "hunting" as his reason for wanting to own a firearm is going to be refused. Is that correct?

yes exactly. its very simple really, where are you going wit this?

firefly08

where are you going wit this?

Not going anywhere in particular - as I said, I am curious. I was hoping someone could tell me "there's a list of reasons defined in Section n of such-and-such and Act", or "the reasons are defined in the Garda licensing guidlines" or "the Superintendent makes them up as he goes along" or something along those lines.

For example, I've seen it mentioned a few times lately, here and in publications linked to from here, that some people want to own a handgun so that they can meet certain legal requirements to hunt abroad. I believe this was offered as an argument in a license appeal although I could have read that incorrectly. To my mind, with no Irish law prohibiting Irish residents from hunting abroad, that is a lawful reason for wanting to own a gun. Is it legitimate, bearing in mind that there's no such requirement for hunters in Ireland?

Another reason behind my asking this is that I've seen the argument used by the Guards once or twice in appeals that they are "not satisfied the firearm in question is the only one suitable for xyz" (paraphrasing here). That tends to contradict the notion that any lawful purpose is also a legitimate purpose for licensing, at least in the eyes of the Guards, or those Guards.

dCorbus

Seriously? I have to ask.



What do you think?

For example: presumably, if hunting became illegal, then the next guy who writes "hunting" as his reason for wanting to own a firearm is going to be refused. Is that correct?

Let's look at your scenario: Hunting is made illegal (God Forbid) and a lad puts down on his FAC application that his reason for using the rifle is to carry out an illegal act.......

......and you need to ask for an answer to that one?

Hmmmmm, let me just surmise what the result of that application would be....

a) Licence Refusal
b) Visit from the NPWS / Gardai / etc
c) Prompt Commit to the National Mental Hospital for just being so f**king stupid as to put down an illegal act as your "good reason" for owning a firearm
d) All of the above

Jeez, this one takes the biscuit TBH.

Or are you really that confused?

dCorbus

Are we just talking about handguns for hunting purposes now?

Read the Commissioners Guidelines (if you have not done so already). It's an informative read, I hear.

I think I see where you're going with this. If you'd like to licence a centrefire pistol to hunt overseas, I'd suggest you start saving and hire a good lawyer.

firefly08

presumably: adv (sentence modifier) one presumes or supposes that

pre·sum·a·ble: adj. That can be presumed or taken for granted; reasonable as a supposition

Overreacting a little perhaps?

I think I see where you're going with this

If anyone thinks I'm "going anywhere" with this, other than what I've already asked, there's no need to reply at all, since you have definitely misunderstood me - no disrespect intended to anyone. I have gone so far as to give examples of the kind of answers I was looking for - if that doesn't clarify what I'm asking, then I give up.

It wasn't me!

dCorbus wrote: »

If you'd like to licence a centrefire pistol to hunt overseas, I'd suggest you start saving and hire a good lawyer.

If you didn't own one before November 2008, then you can save your money as the law expressly states that no application for any restricted short firearm will be considered unless licensed before then to the applicant in question. In such a case, your reason is absolutely irrelevant. Your application will not be considered one way or another.

dCorbus

Is there a list of acceptable reasons written down in legislation somewhere?

Not directly in the legislation AFAIK but this matter is dealt with in some detail in the previously mentioned Commissioners Guidelines.

Or is it just a matter of what the Guards find acceptable?

AFAIK, in principle and in reality, it is a matter of what either the Super or Chief Super finds acceptable (as the Designated Person - depending on whether its an application for a restricted or non-restricted firearm).

Or is it the case that any legal purpose is sufficient?

That should be the case - although it may be "legal" to target shoot in Ireland but if you're not a member of an authorised range/club, that "reason" may not apply in your case.

Or....

another example, although it may be "legal" to hunt in Ireland, if you don't have the requisite permissions etc, that "reason" may not apply in your case.




You seem to have put some thought into this - but I'm not sure that the earliest posts didn't already address your question.

To take the analogies further, whilst it may be "legal" in another jurisdiction to use a particular firearm for a particular use, that would not necessarily allow you to licence that firearm in Ireland. There have been well-publicized cases (one in particular I think) where the applicant wished to licence a firearm of a calibre far larger than anything needed for hunting in Ireland or which may be used on a range in Ireland (not 100% on the details of that case): and they were granted their licence that time around......

To my mind, with no Irish law prohibiting Irish residents from hunting abroad, that is a lawful reason for wanting to own a gun.

No, but that does not necessarily mean that you can licence such a gun in Ireland for use outside of Ireland. It can and has been done AFAIK, but again your "good reason" would have to be assessed. And in the case I mentioned above, I understand that the limitations on using such a firearm in Ireland are very strictly curtailed.

This particular matter is also specifically addressed in the Commissioners Guidelines.

Hope that is all of more use to you.

Before you accuse me of overreacting (which yes, I was TBH, but for "dramatic effect" ), could I ask you have you read the Legislation and the Commissioners Guidelines and all the other bits flashing in big red letters at the top of the forum?;):D

firefly08

could I ask you have you read the Legislation and the Commissioners Guidelines and all the other bits flashing in big red letters at the top of the forum

I have skimmed them in the past - but couldn't remember if they contained what I was looking for this time around. I thought someone might know. But I'll read them again.

Hope that is all of more use to you.

It is! Thanks.

I was TBH, but for "dramatic effect"

Bananaman

I don't understand the thought process that leads you to seek what the allowed reasons are in advance.

If you want a firearm for a reason - lets say for splitting logs - then you put that down on your application form and send it in.

The Gardai will make a determination as to whether or not it is the 'only tool suited to the purpose' and in that case may well come back and advise you to go buy an awl and hammer or an axe.

If however, your reason is hunting - you put that down on your form - provide all the other relevant information and send it it. The Gardai will most likely license the firearm provided you meet all the criteria and the firearm is suitable - e.g. no need for a .50 for a bit of bunny bashing.

If, on the other hand - you just want a firearm - coz you think it would be cool - and therefore look to find a list of reasons you would be allowed have it - simply so you can specify one to get through the process and then not use it for the purpose for which it was licensed. - then you are hauling the urea.

If you do not have a reason - then you should not be looking for a firearm.

B'Man