For god's sake slow down, it's not a race track

dirtynosebeps

the reason i'm starting this thread is to ask you all to slow down.the other day i saw a driver weaving through cars like theres no tomorrow. the way he was driving i'm surprised he didn't kill anyone.
since the snow eased last week i've noticed most drivers are back to their usual ways of speeding. in case you dont watch or listen to the news theres still lots of black ice and driving conditions are still the same.
D A N G E R O U S.

afatbollix

ehhh some people have the skill to drive quicker than you in snow + slippy conditions...

Get over it.

dirtynosebeps

afatbollix wrote: »

ehhh some people have the skill to drive quicker than you in snow + slippy conditions...

Get over it.

all well and good till you hit the brakes and the only thing going to stop you once you hit ice is an act of god. in hind sight i suppose i should've expected this type of reply and no doubt there'll be more like it. theres no skill in speeding in icy conditions only stupidity. the only skill out there is driving safely and have consideration for other road users.

Cookie_Monster

just drive to the conditions, if the roads are clear do the speed limit, if they are icy drive at a speed you feel comfortable at and can also react and stop appropriately.

don't break lights just cos its snowy
don't drive in the "fast" (overtaking) lane unless you are actually overtaking something
don't take chances
don't plod along at 20 blocking everyone because you are too nervous to properly control a car in these conditions

pdbhp

afatbollix wrote: »

ehhh some people have the skill to drive quicker than you in snow + slippy conditions...

Get over it.

True many peoples reactions are better than others. I'm looking at you old people!

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

all well and good till you hit the brakes and the only thing going to stop you once you hit ice is an act of god. in hind sight i suppose i should've expected this type of reply and no doubt there'll be more like it. theres no skill in speeding in icy conditions only stupidity. the only skill out there is driving safely and have consideration for other road users.

Anybody applying the brakes in this weather is an idiot, there's only one sure fire way to drive and thats in a high gear with plenty of gears to drop which will slow you down sufficiently enough to a safe speed for braking.
As for consideration for other road users, if they're not capable of understanding the dynamics of a vehicle in such conditions and aware of faster moving traffic then they should not be allowed out on the public roads

Cookie_Monster

pdbhp wrote: »

Anybody applying the brakes in this weather is an idiot, there's only one sure fire way to drive and thats in a high gear with plenty of gears to drop which will slow you down sufficiently enough to a safe speed for braking.

gears to go, brakes to slow.

brakes are there for a reason and should be used to slow the car. Modern engines are not designed for engine braking and using the clutch to slow yourself down is a major no no.

Proper controlled braking, even on ice should still be possible when combined with proper observation and understanding the cars reaction to road conditions and an obvious allowance of more space.

Fighting Irish

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

all well and good till you hit the brakes and the only thing going to stop you once you hit ice is an act of god. in hind sight i suppose i should've expected this type of reply and no doubt there'll be more like it. theres no skill in speeding in icy conditions only stupidity. the only skill out there is driving safely and have consideration for other road users.

I agree with what you're saying but you've no idea what kind of tyres people have on their cars

dfx-

afatbollix wrote: »

ehhh some people have the skill to drive quicker than you in snow + slippy conditions...

Get over it.

And some people only find out whether they actually have the skill they think they do afterwards

corktina

other side of coin:
I had the misfortune to follow an unaccompanied L driver at 25 km/h whilst she did a good job of licking the wndscreen....

Yes there is Ice out there, but if YOU are THAT terrified STAY HOME...

murphyaii

l drivers, women in general, old people, tractors and taxis
oh, and people who drive yaris cars and 1.2 litre engine cars about 8-10 years old
as for the rest of us usually lads between 18-40 we all drive quicker
as well as bmw drivers.
i understand the black ice as this morning i drove from laois on the new bypass for 10 miles going 40kmph stuck behind a old lad driving a YARIS!!
could have roadraged him but done so from shouting at my windscreen at him
took me 2.5 hours to work in dublin today, the longest it has ever taken me.:mad:

schemingbohemia

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

just drive to the conditions, if the roads are clear do the speed limit, if they are icy drive at a speed you feel comfortable at and can also react and stop appropriately.

That's just stupid advice, you can't see the black ice so driving on secondary roads especially at the speed limit is foolish.

LookBehindYou

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

gears to go, brakes to slow.

brakes are there for a reason and should be used to slow the car. Modern engines are not designed for engine braking and using the clutch to slow yourself down is a major no no.

Proper controlled braking, even on ice should still be possible when combined with proper observation and understanding the cars reaction to road conditions and an obvious allowance of more space.

I DISAGREE with your statement.

Gears are the best way to control your car or bike, assisted by smooth braking if needed.
Smooth driving and anticipation is needed to drive safely and will avoid having to use your brake.

ardmacha

just drive to the conditions, if the roads are clear do the speed limit,

How can you tell if there is ice or not?

AlekSmart

Ehhh some people have the skill to drive quicker than you in snow + slippy conditions...

Get over it.

Skills to drive "quicker" in any given conditions are in plentiful abundance throughout the country right now.

However,driving skills of themselves are only complimentary to a whole shed-full of other less commonplace ones such as continuous assessment of prevailing conditions and equally,an ability to recognize and accept that other road users may not be as fantastically capable as oneself ?

Cookie_Monster

schemingbohemia wrote: »

you can't see the black ice so driving on secondary roads especially at the speed limit is foolish.

clearly, that's a given. however if you are driving the same roads twice a day all week you will know a lot about their condition and watching the cars in front of you and how they move on the road will tell you a lot too. easy to know what the roads are like in your local area if you are on them frequently

LookBehindYou wrote: »

I DISAGREE with your statement.

Gears are the best way to control your car or bike, assisted by smooth braking if needed.
Smooth driving and anticipation is needed to drive safely and will avoid having to use your brake.

disagree all you want, brakes are for braking, gears are for driving. taking your foot off the accel in gear to slow down naturally is grand, changing down gears to slow the car using the clutch is stupid, dangerous and will fail you a driving test.

you might want to try this forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=909
you may learn to use your car's controls properly

bmaxi

I have to agree with a lot of the comments here. I was an HGV driver for a long time and I consider myself a competent and confident but not cocky, driver. Most of the problems I've seen over the past couple of weeks have been caused by people who should not have ventured out at all. Stop, start, skid, slide, getting more and more panicky by the minute and causing problems for other road users, including Emergency Services, ploughs and gritters.
Clear your car of snow and demist your windows before setting off, let your engine warm up so your choke is not driving the car and forcing you to brake
Drive the car out to suit the conditions, get into as high a gear as possible keep well back from the car in front and lay off the brakes. In hilly parts, leave extra space from the car in front so you don't have to slow too much and lose momentum for the upward slope.
Sudden jerky movements of throttle and brakes are only asking for trouble so drive as steadily as possible and above all, if you don't think you can manage this, stay off the road.

Juwwi

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

clearly, that's a given. however if you are driving the same roads twice a day all week you will know a lot about their condition and watching the cars in front of you and how they move on the road will tell you a lot too. easy to know what the roads are like in your local area if you are on them frequently



disagree all you want, brakes are for braking, gears are for driving. taking your foot off the accel in gear to slow down naturally is grand, changing down gears to slow the car using the clutch is stupid, dangerous and will fail you a driving test.

you might want to try this forum: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=909
you may learn to use your car's controls properly

You are 100% wrong,in icy weather the less you use your breaks the better.
And why the hell are you talking about driving tests when people are talking about the best way to handle the conditions ,who mentioned driving tests.

pdbhp

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

gears to go, brakes to slow.

Wrong!. Gears to go and gears to slow down in slippy conditions. The accelerator is the only really necessary tool in snowy/icy conditions. Now this requires skill and finess on both the throttle and the clutch, so anybody not experinced or skillful enough should not be allowed out on the road at all including when it's good weather out.

pdbhp

robbie1977 wrote: »

You are 100% wrong,in icy weather the less you use your breaks the better.
And why the hell are you talking about driving tests when people are talking about the best way to handle the conditions ,who mentioned driving tests.

What he said!

foggy_lad

murphyaii wrote: »

l drivers, women in general, old people, tractors and taxis
oh, and people who drive yaris cars and 1.2 litre engine cars about 8-10 years old
as for the rest of us usually lads between 18-40 we all drive quicker
as well as bmw drivers.
i understand the black ice as this morning i drove from laois on the new bypass for 10 miles going 40kmph stuck behind a old lad driving a YARIS!!
could have roadraged him but done so from shouting at my windscreen at him
took me 2.5 hours to work in dublin today, the longest it has ever taken me.:mad:

If you are such a good driver in a good big engined car you should have just passed the auld lad in his Yaris:)

mollzer

murphyaii wrote: »

l drivers, women in general, old people, tractors and taxis
oh, and people who drive yaris cars and 1.2 litre engine cars about 8-10 years old
as for the rest of us usually lads between 18-40 we all drive quicker
as well as bmw drivers.
i understand the black ice as this morning i drove from laois on the new bypass for 10 miles going 40kmph stuck behind a old lad driving a YARIS!!
could have roadraged him but done so from shouting at my windscreen at him
took me 2.5 hours to work in dublin today, the longest it has ever taken me.:mad:

Feel your pain (about slow commutes these days), but turn your post around and just look at the statistics about who die the most in car crashes,and usually because of speeding.
That old lad in the Yaris wants to live a bit longer. Glad you didnt 'roadrage' him.

AlekSmart

That old lad in the Yaris wants to live a bit longer.

There`s also just a possibility that that oul lad in order to become an oul lad in the first place may well have seen it before and bought the T-Shirt.....that`s why he`s old in the first place......:)

BostonB

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

gears to go, brakes to slow. brakes are there for a reason and should be used to slow the car. Modern engines are not designed for engine braking and using the clutch to slow yourself down is a major no no. ...

Why? (on the modern engines and engine braking, not the clutch part)

How can you avoid it. As soon as you ease off the accelerator you're engine braking. Its impossible to drive at a constant speed in a city for example, you are constantly on/off the gas, you don't hop on and off the brake and in and out of neutral. Its has neligible effect on the clutch. IMO. Unless your down shifting before hand. Thats just doing it wrong, and will wear out your clutch. If on a long constant descent, doing engine braking would save your brakes, where you don't want your brakes to fail. We don't have many of those kind of hills here though.

Down shifting isn't needed though. So I don't agree with the wiki on this part. Cheaper to change brakes than the clutch. Which is why you don't down shift and wear it out.

Engine braking passively reduces wear on brakes and helps a driver maintain control of the vehicle. Active use of engine braking (shifting into a lower gear) is advantageous when it is necessary to control speed while driving down very steep and long slopes. It should be applied before regular disk or drum brakes have been used, leaving the brakes available to make emergency stops. The desired speed is maintained by using engine braking to counteract the gravitational acceleration.
Improper engine braking technique can cause the wheels to skid (also called shift-locking), especially on slippery surfaces such as ice or snow, as a result of too much deceleration. As in a skid caused by over-braking, the vehicle will not regain traction until the wheels are allowed to turn more quickly; the driver must reduce engine braking (shifting back up) to regain traction.

Engine braking is intrinsically available in non-hybrid vehicles with gasoline-powered internal combustion engines, regardless of transmission type. In almost all cases, it is active when the foot is lifted off the accelerator, the transmission is not in neutral, the clutch is engaged and a freewheel is not engaged.
In hybrid electric vehicles like the Toyota Prius, engine braking is simulated by the computer software to match the feel of a traditional automatic transmission. For long downhill runs, the "B" mode acts like a lower gear, using higher RPMs in the internal combustion engine to waste energy, preventing the battery from becoming overcharged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_braking

Lapin

afatbollix wrote: »

ehhh some people have the skill to drive quicker than you in snow + slippy conditions...

Get over it.

This is quite possibly the most ill thought out, unhelpful, shít stirring and idiotic comment I have ever seen on Boards.ie.

Cookie_Monster

BostonB wrote: »

Why? (on the modern engines and engine braking, not the clutch part)

modern engines rev much much freer than older ones and so will simply rev higher than normal if using them to brake. Not nearly as effective as before, though still useful. Anyway people on here are advocating not using your brakes at all, which is just insane, especially if slowing from higher speeds which means down shifting which means increased clutch wear and/or sudden decel as you let the clutch in giving no warning to anyone around you.

Don't forget you brake lights are not connected to your engine so if only slowing using engine braking and down shifting, you are giving no visual signal of your slowing down. So you should be giving hand signals while doing this also, which no one does either.

Proper, gentle use of the brakes is the easiest and safest way to slow down, not just for yourself but those around driving relying on the visual signals of what you are doing.

Cookie_Monster

Lapin wrote: »

This is quite possibly the most ill thought out, unhelpful, shít stirring and idiotic comment I have ever seen on Boards.ie.

why, there were plenty of idiots out driving around at 20pkh on roads capable of much higher speed because the have neither the skill nor the confidence to control a car in those conditions.

Those people are just as dangerous to come across as the lunatics speeding around the place.

kippy

afatbollix wrote: »

ehhh some people have the skill to drive quicker than you in snow + slippy conditions...

Get over it.

That's been the attitude of many of those I have seen in the ditch or worse in the last few weeks.

Typical.

No doubt some have better "skills" than others however I'd like to see:
1. Where they learned these skills.
2. What tests they have passed.
3. What magical powers they possess to stop dead on ice given an obstacle.

Stark

LookBehindYou wrote: »

I DISAGREE with your statement.

Gears are the best way to control your car or bike, assisted by smooth braking if needed.
Smooth driving and anticipation is needed to drive safely and will avoid having to use your brake.

Even for traffic lights?

Antomus Prime

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

disagree all you want, brakes are for braking, gears are for driving. taking your foot off the accel in gear to slow down naturally is grand, changing down gears to slow the car using the clutch is stupid, dangerous and will fail you a driving test.

Yes using gears to slow down will not go down well in a driving test but this topic isn't about a driving test, it's about driving in extreme weather conditions. Anybody with experience in driving in snow/ice will know that the safest way to stop/slow down is to go down the gears while applying light brakes.... If you just hit the brakes your causeing extra forward momentum and increasing the risk of skidding/sliding. By using the gears and clutch you're actually forcing the engine and drive train to slow down, meaning you have more chance of stopping the car without skidding.

But I do take on board that you're generally not supposed to use the gears/clutch to brake but in this weather it's the safest and most efficient way to stop the car

Stark

dirtynosebeps wrote: »

the reason i'm starting this thread is to ask you all to slow down.the other day i saw a driver weaving through cars like theres no tomorrow. the way he was driving i'm surprised he didn't kill anyone.
since the snow eased last week i've noticed most drivers are back to their usual ways of speeding. in case you dont watch or listen to the news theres still lots of black ice and driving conditions are still the same.
D A N G E R O U S.

I wonder if he was the guy on Crimecall last night weaving through people in freezing fog who the Gardaí had to let speed away because some numpty decided to block their unmarked car from getting past him in the overtaking lane. Needless to say the Gardaí were none too impressed with the numpty's policing efforts.

BostonB

anthonyk.is wrote: »

Yes using gears to slow down will not go down well in a driving test but this topic isn't about a driving test, it's about driving in extreme weather conditions. Anybody with experience in driving in snow/ice will know that the safest way to stop/slow down is to go down the gears while applying light brakes.... If you just hit the brakes your causeing extra forward momentum and increasing the risk of skidding/sliding. By using the gears and clutch you're actually forcing the engine and drive train to slow down, meaning you have more chance of stopping the car without skidding.

But I do take on board that you're generally not supposed to use the gears/clutch to brake but in this weather it's the safest and most efficient way to stop the car

I don't think its that black and white though.

The idea of not using the brakes is not to skid. Taking the foot off the gas will be a much more gentle deceleration. But if you have to stop quicker than that. A modern ABS will probably top quicker than human controlled braking even on ice. Any tests I've seen seem to suggest that. I assume therefore that ABS would also stop you quicker on ice than engine braking, using the clutch or not. Also it may depend how good you're ABS is. I assume its better in new cars than when it first came out.

TBH I've one car with ABS and one that hasn't. I haven't notice much of a difference tbh. Probably tyres and weight are making more of a difference.

Antomus Prime

BostonB wrote: »

I don't think its that black and white though.

The idea of not using the brakes is not to skid. Taking the foot off the gas will be a much more gentle deceleration. But if you have to stop quicker than that. A modern ABS will probably top quicker than human controlled braking even on ice. Any tests I've seen seem to suggest that. I assume therefore that ABS would also stop you quicker on ice than engine braking, using the clutch or not. Also it may depend how good you're ABS is. I assume its better in new cars than when it first came out.

TBH I've one car with ABS and one that hasn't. I haven't notice much of a difference tbh. Probably tyres and weight are making more of a difference.

In my experience ABS does f**k all in the kind of conditions we had ever the last few weeks, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm rite, just anytime i've ventured out in the snow or ice it's always been safer and more efficient to brake with the engine cause if you hit the brakes you're gonna skid or spin the car.

Stark

I've found that when leaving the same space to brake as when slowing down using the gears, that it was fine. You feel a shudder coming from the brake pedal as the ABS kicks in early which feels a little like you're skidding but I don't remember ever not being in control of the car.

deman

afatbollix wrote: »

ehhh some people think they have the skill to drive quicker than you in snow + slippy conditions...

Get over it.

FYP

Stark

Or maybe they're one of the few Irish drivers who don't drive around all winter on hard rubber summer tyres.

BostonB

anthonyk.is wrote: »

In my experience ABS does f**k all in the kind of conditions we had ever the last few weeks, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm rite, just anytime i've ventured out in the snow or ice it's always been safer and more efficient to brake with the engine cause if you hit the brakes you're gonna skid or spin the car.

Well I got around not using the brakes as much as possible just fine. Took it very easy and any little slides or skids were easily corrected. I didn't have problem using the brakes gently either though.

That said you can avoid all the fools by not driving at all!

Capt'n Midnight

pdbhp wrote: »

True many peoples reactions are better than others. I'm looking at you old people!

Don't get me started on risk compensation. But yes I do know drivers who believe that because they think they have fast reactions they can get away with less observation, not the sort of person you want on ice.

In slippery conditions allow an 8 second gap to the car in front. Also be alert for the twinkle of frost on the road.

If you are going faster than everyone else, maybe they know something you don't. (this applies all year round)

If are holding up a lot of traffic then pull in to let them pass - I would love to see people getting done for obstruction (if you don't feel the conditions are safe you don't have a right to block everyone else)

Antomus Prime

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If are holding up a lot of traffic then pull in to let them pass - I would love to see people getting done for obstruction (if you don't feel the conditions are safe you don't have a right to block everyone else)

I've said this for years, nothing worse then being stuck behind someone doing 40 in an 80 zone just because they aren't confident enough. I'm sympathetic with learner drivers though, everyone had to learn at some stage, but if you're holding the traffic up then pull in and let them pass you!!!!!