Noonan hands Lenihan his arse on a plate

Sir Oxman

Primetime, Dec 7th.

I've always wondered why Lenihan is noted for rarely engaging in live public debate with his opponents, now I know why.
A more inept defence of his budget it would be hard to imagine.

Tonight proves why - Noonan absolutely hammered him on €40 p.w. being taken off new minimum wage earners and more than likely a lot of existing ones (MoF reply - well, at least they'll have a job), €90m savings on hitting carers/widows/disabled whilst all OAPs for the second budget get a bye to the next round (we all know why), PS reform kicked down the road etc etc


It should be up on RTE Player within the day or it's repeated at 04:30am tomorrow morning on RTE1

toobeyshaw

I never thought I'd say it but I thought Noonan came across (relatively) well on his comments in the Dail today and also on Primetime. Lenihan has lost all credibility in my eyes now.

flutered

noonan was akin to a fisherman expertly using a filleting knife.

Ulysses Gaze

Lenihan, finally, exposed on TV as inept and incompetent to an appalling degree for everyone to see. His performance tonight shows why he is the worst Finance Minister in Europe. Hasn't a notion about what he is talking about.

Torpedos his chances of leading FF now, although who they have to take over? Hardly fill you with confidence.

I'd still doubt this will have quite the enormous impact in terms of seats as some on other forums seem to suggest.

Noonan filleted Ahern in 2002 at the leaders debate and it did little good for FG. Factor in the 'Ah sure poor Brian is sick' sympathy vote and the impact may not be as great.

Still, if it comes to an IMF/ECB re-negotiation of terms related to the bailout, I know I'd want someone cool, calm and collected like Noonan talking to Chopra and co.

dixiefly

Totally agree, I couldnt believe how bad Lenihan was....well I can believe it. I used to think Lenihan was good but have recently come to the realisation that it is alll waffle.

Unfortunately for him tonight he couldnt even waffle.

gandalf

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Still, if it comes to an IMF/ECB re-negotiation of terms related to the bailout, I know I'd want someone cool, calm and collected like Noonan talking to Chopra and co.

Don't forget he has Richard Bruton to back him up as well. I think our only hope for a decent Government is a majority FG one. God help us if Joan Burton is part of the team re-negotiating the bailout because we will get nowhere.

I didn't see this interview but I will make an attempt to watch it tomorrow but if Lenihan did say that "well, at least they'll have a job" then I think that says an awful lot about the thought process going on in the upper echelons of Fianna Fail. They have been in power for far too long.

SB-08

I was delighted to finally see Lenihan show up for the waffling moron he is. I have been beyond sick of him walking all over interviewers for so long now and getting away with his nonsense simply due to the interviewers not having broad enough knowledge regarding the economy. Finally he came up against someone who possess a considerebly greater knowledge of economic issues and is far more competenent - Michael Noonan - and he is verbally destroyed with ease and with very little effort by Noonan. Noonan could have gone even further and really stuck the knife in, especially after Lenny's appalling comment "well they have a job" in defense of cutting the lower paid - but let Lenny dig his own hole whilst pointing out in a calm way how laughable Lenny's plans are. I loved the part regarding the €90M when Lenny wasn't even aware of such an figure of his own department - surely he would have had such info prepared? Unreal. He is finally being shown up for the waffling gobsheen most people with common sense knew he was all along. Hopefully he doesn become FF leader now and is further exposed during the election by Noonan and all those naive people who are sitll under the illusion that Lenny is a great FM and was unlucky to inherit such a damaged economy as a result of Bertie and Clowen - totally ignoring the facts that his descisions along the way have made this situation as awful as it currently is.

The only problem with Lenny being leader in the campaign is that he would still eat Enda Kenny alive in a debate - because he knows far more about the economy and is shout down and make people look totally wrong even if they are correct.

I loved Noonan this evening when he asked Lenny if he was beaten up by a third child on his way to school. His 'wit' is much appreciated at a time like this.:D

Dempo1

Indeed Noonan has been a breath of fresh air since his return, i particularly enjoyed him putting that Buffoon Paul Gogarty in his place during his budget response in the dail. Pretty meek looking Lenihan tonight on prime time. I am just worried Labour and Fine Gaels bickering may cause difficulties in forming a new government. Cowen seems to be on fire all of a sudden but its a little to late in the day for waking up!

Soldie

gandalf wrote: »

Don't forget he has Richard Bruton to back him up as well. I think our only hope for a decent Government is a majority FG one. God help us if Joan Burton is part of the team re-negotiating the bailout because we will get nowhere.

I'd actually prefer to see a Fine Gael/Fianna Fáil coalition than a Fine Gael/Labour coalition; the differences between Fine Gael and Labour are too great, and Labour's cozy relationship with the unions gives me the heebie-jeebies.

gandalf

There is no way that Fianna Fail should be allowed into Government for a long time to come or ever again. They have done far more damage than any prescribed terrorist organisations ever have to this country and its citizens.

Liam Byrne

Soldie wrote: »

I'd actually prefer to see a Fine Gael/Fianna Fáil coalition than a Fine Gael/Labour coalition; the differences between Fine Gael and Labour are too great, and Labour's cozy relationship with the unions gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Do you really think that FG could keep FF's corruption and self-interest reined in ? :eek:

If FG go into coalition with FF then I'm definitely emigrating and washing my hands of all ties and all hope for this country until such time as all current members of Dáil Eireann are dead and buried and a complete overhaul of all forms of ethics and fairness are revised and written into law with a statutory punishment of jail for putting their own or their party's interest ahead of the people of this country.

lugha

I think I must have been watching a different debate? (Though I’ll concede, drink has been taken ). Noonan certainly did well and Lenihan’s “they still have jobs” comment was a bit of a clanger. But given the severity of the budget and the fact that Noonan could choose his points of attack, I didn’t think it was quite the mauling that everyone else seems to thing it was.

Still, FF out! :P

Amazotheamazing

Noonan's lazarus-esque comeback over the past few months have been something to behold, how did he manage to bring FG to the brink of extinction in 2002? We'd have a very different Ireland today if FG had done better in 2002 under Noonan but the voters rejected them in their droves. Strange how the circle turns.

Soldie

gandalf wrote: »

There is no way that Fianna Fail should be allowed into Government for a long time to come or ever again. They have done far more damage than any prescribed terrorist organisations ever have to this country and its citizens.

I have as much contempt for Fianna Fáil as the next person, but a Fine Gael/Labour coalition would not benefit the country as the differences between them would hinder decision-making.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

I think our only hope for a decent Government is a majority FG one. God help us if Joan Burton is part of the team re-negotiating the bailout because we will get nowhere.

Soldie wrote: »

I have as much contempt for Fianna Fáil as the next person, but a Fine Gael/Labour coalition would not benefit the country as the differences between them would hinder decision-making.

You did read what I posted earlier in this thread didn't you ?

However every other political entity in the Dail now or in the future would have to make an extra "special" effort to destroy the economy in the manner Fianna Fail have over subsequent Governments (with collaboration from the extinct PD's and soon to be extinct Greens).

Stabshauptmann

gandalf wrote: »

There is no way that Fianna Fail should be allowed into Government for a long time to come or ever again. They have done far more damage than any prescribed terrorist organisations ever have to this country and its citizens.

hyperbole much?

Yup Noonan did a great job. But he also did an amazing job in the leaders debate in 2002. The major improvement I recognise is that in 2002 he was seen as too smart. He was smug and superior, and some even said vicious. He was softly spoken today, very very good.

My personal feeling on the budget:
I agree that there is a point beyond which it has been proven that increasing the higher rate actually has a negative impact.
I agree that it is only fair to take more people into the tax system.
And I believe that both the dole and minimum wage are too high. As someone who comfortably lived on 100 a week in 2007, I dont see why single ppl with no dependants should have been paid twice that.

I feel though that attacking the carers, widows, and blind is appalling. And was a bit surprised to hear Noonan admit that his alternative would be to reduce the PS, numbers and wages! That will cost 'em votes, but hey, it might get him mine.

PeterIanStaker

He did a good job, but what annoyed me was the Collins quote at the end.

I :rolleyes: rolleyed in real life.

This civil war tripe is why the country has been ruined decade after decade.

Sponge Bob

The debate is here at 16 mins in

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1086559

mossyc123

That's convinced me now.
FG overall majority is the best way forward.
Noonan has only been in Finance since the summer yet had every fact and figure on the tip of his tongue.
Lost count of the amount of times he could have torn Lenihan to shreds, but didn't feel the need to, didn't even raise his voice once.
Have never seen Lenihan even remotely flustered but he looked worried tonight.

DB10

FG are a joke, how on earth can they possibly think cutting 30,000 public sector jobs and slashing pay once again, is a good idea.

That is triple the amount of job losses FF are delivering now ffs! It is absolutely scandalous, and a disgusting tactic due to the lower number of 1/6th of the workforce in the public sector, ie they are bullying their way through and targeting the little guy.

Well let me tell you now, anyway voting for FG in this election have no right to complain about understaffed hospitals, corners being cut, poor service and quality in the public sector which are every day needs.

I dread to think what the hospitals in this country will look like with FG in charge, the are already a complete mess and closures all over the place. It will be akin to a third world country.

loldog

toobeyshaw wrote: »

I never thought I'd say it but I thought Noonan came across (relatively) well on his comments in the Dail today and also on Primetime. Lenihan has lost all credibility in my eyes now.

Yet the voters flatly rejected him when he ran for Taoiseach. How strange in hindsight.

.

lebowsky

DB10 wrote: »

Well let me tell you now, anyway voting for FG in this election have no right to complain about understaffed hospitals, corners being cut, poor service and quality in the public sector which are every day needs.

I dread to think what the hospitals in this country will look like with FG in charge, the are already a complete mess and closures all over the place. It will be akin to a third world country.

What have the public sector done with their increased expenditure since 2000?
Absolutely silch

This is pure scare tactics, if in doubt cry wolf about front line services. You don't see any banners saying "save our bureaucracy"

thebman

DB10 wrote: »

FG are a joke, how on earth can they possibly think cutting 30,000 public sector jobs and slashing pay once again, is a good idea.

Yeah its not like we are 20 billion in the red or anything.

Idbatterim

just listening to this now, noonan just made the point & i have made this point before myself many times on boards, if the PS are going to be protected, then all other sectors of society will suffer. I don't care what way anyone wants to spin that!

DB10

thebman wrote: »

Yeah its not like we are 20 billion in the red or anything.

:rolleyes:

Oh great, sure we might as abolish the hospitals altogether then. Who cares about the consequences. I mean we owe some money , hospitals don't matter anymore so.

DB10

Idbatterim wrote: »

just listening to this now, noonan just made the point & i have made this point before myself many times on boards, if the PS are going to be protected, then all other sectors of society will suffer. I don't care what way anyone wants to spin that!

If you haven't been in a hospital recently, I suggest you see what it's like. And now FG want to hammer it more into the ground at the danger of many peoples lives.

Just so they can attract the majority voters. As was said by Pat Rabbitte today, it's all good saying you're not in the public sector.

But you are in the public and if anything it will affect normal people more than most.

Idbatterim

Welfare rates here are unsustainable whatever way you want to spin it, and Lenihan keeps repeating it, but it is true! Fair play Michael Noonan, thats all I can say!

thebman

DB10 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Oh great, sure we might as abolish the hospitals altogether then. Who cares about the consequences. I mean we owe some money , hospitals don't matter anymore so.

Your ignoring that public services may be working hard and to capacity but it doesn't mean they are working efficiently.

There are massive reforms possible that will make less staff as productive as the existing staff levels.

Or are you suggesting the public sector is working at maximum efficiency?

scientific1982

toobeyshaw wrote: »

I never thought I'd say it but I thought Noonan came across (relatively) well on his comments in the Dail today and also on Primetime. Lenihan has lost all credibility in my eyes now.

He didnt come across "relatively" well, he was spot on. Lenihan got thrashed.

scientific1982

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

hyperbole much?

Yup Noonan did a great job. But he also did an amazing job in the leaders debate in 2002. The major improvement I recognise is that in 2002 he was seen as too smart. He was smug and superior, and some even said vicious. He was softly spoken today, very very good.

My personal feeling on the budget:
I agree that there is a point beyond which it has been proven that increasing the higher rate actually has a negative impact.
I agree that it is only fair to take more people into the tax system.
And I believe that both the dole and minimum wage are too high. As someone who comfortably lived on 100 a week in 2007, I dont see why single ppl with no dependants should have been paid twice that.

I feel though that attacking the carers, widows, and blind is appalling. And was a bit surprised to hear Noonan admit that his alternative would be to reduce the PS, numbers and wages! That will cost 'em votes, but hey, it might get him mine.

I agree. I think the dole for single people should have been hit a lot more than it was. Its far too high.

scientific1982

DB10 wrote: »

FG are a joke, how on earth can they possibly think cutting 30,000 public sector jobs and slashing pay once again, is a good idea.

That is triple the amount of job losses FF are delivering now ffs! It is absolutely scandalous, and a disgusting tactic due to the lower number of 1/6th of the workforce in the public sector, ie they are bullying their way through and targeting the little guy.

Well let me tell you now, anyway voting for FG in this election have no right to complain about understaffed hospitals, corners being cut, poor service and quality in the public sector which are every day needs.

I dread to think what the hospitals in this country will look like with FG in charge, the are already a complete mess and closures all over the place. It will be akin to a third world country.

No. We have FF to thank for that. And radical reform of the public sector is badly needed. Its the private sector, not the public sector that funds this country.

Tragedy

Just watched it.
****ing disgusted at Irish Journalism today, waffle waffle waffle rabble rabble social weflare cut rabble rabble rabble.
Focused on social welfare cuts and pretty much nothing else.

I don't see Lenihan being destroyed, Noonan does well but there's no-one coming out on top.

How many people on this thread actually watched it, rather than saw what they wanted to see?

Welfare needed to be cut(but not in carers/disability). Income tax bands needed to be widened. Lenihan points most of this out and defends it.

I receive €14,000 in welfare a year(BTEA+Rent Allowance). Minimum wage is how much, just under €18,000?
I don't have a medical card, but that has to have an intangible benefit of €500-€1000 a year.

Why the fúck would people be getting off social welfare?

PomBear

Noonan did ok showed opposition but could have done a whole lot better. Pretty poor politician imo.

Also, he was a pretty poor minister when he had his choice.

Ellian

Dempo1 wrote: »

Indeed Noonan has been a breath of fresh air since his return, i particularly enjoyed him putting that Buffoon Paul Gogarty in his place during his budget response in the dail. Pretty meek looking Lenihan tonight on prime time. I am just worried Labour and Fine Gaels bickering may cause difficulties in forming a new government. Cowen seems to be on fire all of a sudden but its a little to late in the day for waking up!

I was listening to that bit over and over trying to figure out what Gogarty said - I think it was just before someone else said "tomorrow isn't today". Any idea what he said??

newmug

DB10 wrote: »

Well let me tell you now, anyway voting for FG in this election have no right to complain about understaffed hospitals, corners being cut, poor service and quality in the public sector which are every day needs.

And just what do you think the public services are like at the moment? Are you having a laugh? I was in Romania over the summer, a far poorer country than Ireland, and I can tell you my eyes were opened! Trains run on time, police actually call out when you ring them, there was no chaos in the hospitals, local politics wasnt all about who you're related to! This in a country thats only 20 years out of communism, where you still see donkeys and carts on the roads?

I can guarantee you, with the state of our public sector, we wont be losing much.

newmug

Tragedy wrote: »

I receive €14,000 in welfare a year(BTEA+Rent Allowance). Minimum wage is how much, just under €18,000?
I don't have a medical card, but that has to have an intangible benefit of €500-€1000 a year.

Why the fúck would people be getting off social welfare?

Exactly! Dole should be E100 per week. Then people would appreciate their E18,000:mad:

Panrich

DB10 wrote: »

FG are a joke, how on earth can they possibly think cutting 30,000 public sector jobs and slashing pay once again, is a good idea.

That is triple the amount of job losses FF are delivering now ffs! It is absolutely scandalous, and a disgusting tactic due to the lower number of 1/6th of the workforce in the public sector, ie they are bullying their way through and targeting the little guy.

Well let me tell you now, anyway voting for FG in this election have no right to complain about understaffed hospitals, corners being cut, poor service and quality in the public sector which are every day needs.

I dread to think what the hospitals in this country will look like with FG in charge, the are already a complete mess and closures all over the place. It will be akin to a third world country.

The example that stays with me is that there are over 2000 people employed in HR alone within the HSE. Their boss Sean McGrath has admitted that they could do the job with less than 800. That is one example of how the public sector has been run in this country. We abolish all the regional health boards but employ all the staff in the new umbrella authority without taking advantage of any economies of scale or duplication of function or effort. Madness.

gandalf

Watched it last night before I hit the sack (thanks for the link). I wouldn't say that Noonan handed Lenihan his ass, it would be more accurate to say Noonan let Lenihan hang himself on his own rope or bullsh!t in this case.

Noonan certainly has improved from the performance he gave in 2002. He is more assured, calm and less arrogant. He also knows what he is talking about which clearly is not the case with the worst Finance Minister in Europe.

Buford T Justice

DB10 wrote: »

FG are a joke, how on earth can they possibly think cutting 30,000 public sector jobs and slashing pay once again, is a good idea.

That is triple the amount of job losses FF are delivering now ffs! It is absolutely scandalous, and a disgusting tactic due to the lower number of 1/6th of the workforce in the public sector, ie they are bullying their way through and targeting the little guy.

Well let me tell you now, anyway voting for FG in this election have no right to complain about understaffed hospitals, corners being cut, poor service and quality in the public sector which are every day needs.

I dread to think what the hospitals in this country will look like with FG in charge, the are already a complete mess and closures all over the place. It will be akin to a third world country.

The health service in this country is the most remarkably inefficient service ever known to man. FF abolished the regional boards to create the 'executive' that they have now, which would normally mean that there would be job losses through amalgamation. Not so. Not one person lost their job within the HSE. FF never bothered their arse to manage them correctly, and they were effectively given the free reign to lose the run of themselves, which they have done very well.

Any time there was a problem, FF just threw more money at it, because they had the cash, and it was easier. I firmly believe that they created the laziness, and allowed it to spread by their own greed and incompetence.

Typically, when there are cuts, they will attack the front line services like they always do, no mention of the over-paid and underworked tea makers sittin in their offices twiddling their thumbs

FG are offering to reform this, amongst other things like all the quango's that are out there.

Are you suggesting that we cannot operate successfully without these sort of people?

spirityboy

the minister for bankruptcy, I mean finance was asked on Prime Time on last night does he think it fair that someone earning minimum wage pay over €2000 in cuts because of the reduction in the minimum wage by €1 per hour while someone earning €80K pay just over €1500. He was asked the same question two or three times and his answer “sure he has a job doesn’t he” not the best answer in the world

BlaasForRafa

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Noonan's lazarus-esque comeback over the past few months have been something to behold, how did he manage to bring FG to the brink of extinction in 2002? We'd have a very different Ireland today if FG had done better in 2002 under Noonan but the voters rejected them in their droves. Strange how the circle turns.

FG couldn't really compete with FF's giveaway budgets of 2001/2. Remember the SSIA? 25% extra money on your investment over the life of the next parliament (2002-07), that was a fairly huge bribe and a lot of people fell for it.

FF have form for that kind of cynicism too, the 1977 giveaway budget is the one that got the country into massive trouble during the 70's/80's. It prompted this broadcast from Haughey in 1980 which is eerily similar to some of Lenihans denouncements yesterday of the mcreevy/cowen overspending of the noughties

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-bSKsVDr_M

scr123

The ABFF are getting carried away again. Never saw Lenihan so relaxed. If any member of the Opposition could not get a few punches in below the belt on the day the toughest Budget ever was announced they would be a lot more stupid than usual, and thats hard to achieve ! We are in a heavy deflationery spiral to bring the economy under control and knocking 1 Euro off the minimum wage is designed to highlight that need for deflation. Its more symbolic than anything else and Noonan is fully aware of this. Very few people are on the min wage and its mainly for young people doing part time work. The few employers paying full time staff such low money shouldnt be in business anyway and are exploiting people.
Anyone noticed when the Opposition are asked will they restore the 1 Euro ?
The reduction in the min wage like the removal of the medical cards for the over70's are clear messages that deflation is absolutely necessary. If the ABFF and many in FF had any knowledge of economics they would know fear is the best tool when embarking on a period of deflation.

As I like to say, people can play politics all they like but economics rules the world !

BlaasForRafa

scr123 wrote: »

The ABFF are getting carried away again.

How were things in the cumann last night?

jmayo

toobeyshaw wrote: »

I never thought I'd say it but I thought Noonan came across (relatively) well on his comments in the Dail today and also on Primetime. Lenihan has lost all credibility in my eyes now.

Ahh FFS did he have any credibility before this ?
Ehhh No.

DB10 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Oh great, sure we might as abolish the hospitals altogether then. Who cares about the consequences. I mean we owe some money , hospitals don't matter anymore so.

Much hyperbole. :rolleyes:
The health system worked as well before the HSE bureaucracy was added and before all the middle management was added.
So less of the bullsh** and trying to claim that job cuts in the health service would result in hospital closures.
Job cuts in the right place could mean decreased costs and even more money to be spent on actual extra front line staff.

DB10 wrote: »

If you haven't been in a hospital recently, I suggest you see what it's like. And now FG want to hammer it more into the ground at the danger of many peoples lives.

Yeah ever ring a public hospital and try and talk to HSE admin staff ?
Compare that to dealing with a private hospital, they are an effing disgrace.

Again we have the scare tactics. :rolleyes:
The hospitals have been doing quiet a job at putting patient lives at risk without FG.
Or have we forgotten all the scandals where hospital staff fu**ed up yet nothing ever happened to them ?

flutered

As I like to say, people can play politics all they like but economics rules the world ![/QUOTE]

unfortunately ff never understood them, why did the eu dunce have to hire alan aherne, why did he have to visit mc williams in the late and early hours, why the fcuk did he not hire him and get rid of aherne, in any walk of this life the best tool anyone can have at their disposal is common sense, a rather scarce commodity in this goverment methinks.

scr123

flutered wrote: »

As I like to say, people can play politics all they like but economics rules the world !

unfortunately ff never understood them, why did the eu dunce have to hire alan aherne, why did he have to visit mc williams in the late and early hours, why the fcuk did he not hire him and get rid of aherne, in any walk of this life the best tool anyone can have at their disposal is common sense, a rather scarce commodity in this goverment methinks.[/QUOTE]


And you think the ABFF have what it takes ? Explain how they lost the last 6 elections and find out if they have had any luck locating brains and commonsense. They are on the way to government and time is running out on them.
The ABFF should also do a crash course in dealing with people like me when they arrive in government. Revenge can be sweet

Prediction, there will be a lot of name changes on message boards when the ABFF take over !

BlaasForRafa

scr123 wrote: »

The ABFF should also do a crash course in dealing with people like me when they arrive in government. Revenge can be sweet

Prediction, there will be a lot of name changes on message boards when the ABFF take over !

Its because of the party before country attitudes of people like you that the government is as utterly rotten as it is and a major cause for why the country has been brought as low as it has in the last few years.

jpb1974

I cringed when Lenihan, when asked, stated that he was proud of this budget.

This after Noonan taking him to the cleaners on cuts to carers, widows, blind people etc.

It was a really pathetic budget... lazy & lethargic as usual. Based on yesterday's proposals those that can afford to pay more seem to be paying proportionately less than those on lower incomes.

Pensioners dodge the bullet again... because the government are afraid of them.

What I like about Noonan is his calm & composed manner. He delivers his message very effectively. He tore Lenihan to shreds last night without having to go Pat Rabitte v. Pat Carey (which I enjoyed too for different reasons).

T runner

gandalf wrote: »

There is no way that Fianna Fail should be allowed into Government for a long time to come or ever again. They have done far more damage than any prescribed terrorist organisations ever have to this country and its citizens.

Can you clarify exactly what you mean by that please? Surely human life is more important than income at the end of the day.

20Cent

Noonan has been playing a blinder recently. He was excellent in that debate he showed Lenny up for what he is, a waste of space. The point about widows and carers handed Lenny the rope to hang himself. For 90m he's cut the most vulnerable, a few cents on something else would have covered it.

Sponge Bob

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Typically, when there are cuts, they will attack the front line services like they always do, no mention of the over-paid and underworked tea makers sittin in their offices twiddling their thumbs

Our local GAA club could not survive without the nice woman in the admin job in the HSE who does all the emails / photocopying / admin from her office in Galway.

Please think about the effect on the front line of the GAA if she is gotten rid of