Incorrect LED sign and intercom station announcements on trains.

Run_to_da_hills

Twice I have been on the Dart recently where the approaching station announcement and LED signs in the carriages were out of synchro.

Coming into Blackrock this evening the approaching station was "Sandycove" according to the LED sign and announcement. It seems to be more prevalent on the Toyku units.

Who is responsible for this? Is there a way of contacting the driver to correct this or at least switch it off?

Grand for most of us but could be confusing to the elderly or those not familiar with the line .

loyatemu

don't know how often you travel on the Dart but I would say the PIS displays are wrong or off at least 50% of the time. You'd think it'd be an easy enough thing to get right (especially given the non-complexity of our network) but not for Irish Rail and they don't care either.

Theres a very lengthy thread on the RUI message board tracking inaccurate displays - on diesel trains they're often hilariously inaccurate, trains for Drogheda displaying "Farranfore" etc..

Run_to_da_hills

loyatemu wrote: »

don't know how often you travel on the Dart but I would say the PIS displays are wrong or off at least 50% of the time. You'd think it'd be an easy enough thing to get right (especially given the non-complexity of our network) but not for Irish Rail and they don't care either.

Theres a very lengthy thread on the RUI message board tracking inaccurate displays - on diesel trains they're often hilariously inaccurate, trains for Drogheda displaying "Farranfore" etc..

I use the Dart quite a bit, probably down to where I was sitting in the carriage or if I had my Ipod on.

ClovenHoof

loyatemu wrote: »

don't know how often you travel on the Dart but I would say the PIS displays are wrong or off at least 50% of the time.

The afternoon train into Sligo the other day had "Waterford" on the LED destination board as it pulled into Mulligar Station as it arrived in Sligo I looked at the LED board and it had been changed to "Westport".

It has gone beyond a joke at this stage. Are they set by the driver or are they somekind of software which is key'd in from a central point?

Cookie_Monster

time to go back to issuing a4 pages and markers perhaps :pac:

highlydebased

I'd imagine its set/controlled by the driver. But many of them probably dont care- similar to bus drivers who dont bother setting the number/route properly on the bus.

KC61

It's a software issue apparently - nothing to do with the drivers.

Run_to_da_hills

I have decided to edit the title as one poster pointed out, its not just a problem on Darts.

Neon-Circles wrote: »

I'd imagine its set/controlled by the driver. But many of them probably dont care- similar to bus drivers who dont bother setting the number/route properly on the bus.

They are probably looking for more money to do it. :pac:

KC61 wrote: »

It's a software issue apparently - nothing to do with the drivers.

They should switch the damn thing off, as simple as that.

loyatemu

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They should switch the damn thing off, as simple as that.

I suspect the drivers have to key in what "route" they are driving and the software does the rest - not sure if it uses GPS or track circuits to determine location but it seems to get easily confused. As you say, the drivers should be aware of what it is doing and if it is wrong they should reset it or turn it off.

I've frequently seen trains pulling up to 2 seperate platforms in Connolly both displaying the same destination at the same time (usually "Maynooth"). For a non-regular user of the trains, this is worse than no information, its disastrously confusing.

Run_to_da_hills

Perhaps re introduce the larger billboard size station signs again so people can see clearly when they arrive at their destination..

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Perhaps re introduce the larger billboard size station signs again so people can see clearly when they arrive at their destination..

not much good to you if you got on the "Maynooth" train to Sligo though...

ClovenHoof

KC61 wrote: »

It's a software issue apparently - nothing to do with the drivers.

Well if that is the case they then should be switched off and a simple name card placed into the window?

highlydebased

If its a software issue why is it not being sorted? This has been ongoing for years in the case of 29000's. I'm sure its only a small issue. Sake!

Breezer

KC61 wrote: »

It's a software issue apparently - nothing to do with the drivers.

But presumably the software is designed for this sole purpose? How on earth was it brought to market with a bug in it that effectively completely stops it working? Moreover, why did Irish Rail buy it if that was the case, and how much did it cost?

Cookie_Monster

Breezer wrote: »

But presumably the software is designed for this sole purpose?
How on earth was it brought to market with a bug in it that effectively completely stops it working?
Moreover, why did Irish Rail buy it if that was the case, and how much did it cost?

presumably its a reasonably specific piece of software the manufacturer uses

These thing can happen, but should be quickly and easily fixed by manufacturer with patching releases

if it was unknow what could they have done about it? they should of course have insisted on full tech support as part of the package, but somehow I doubt they did.

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

time to go back to issuing a4 pages and markers perhaps :pac:

or the chalk and write destination on a few of the cars like used to happen with the old mark 3 coaches

Breezer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

presumably its a reasonably specific piece of software the manufacturer uses

This is my point: it's a specific piece of software, designed to do one job, and it can't do it, meaning it's pretty useless.

These thing can happen, but should be quickly and easily fixed by manufacturer with patching releases

if it was unknow what could they have done about it? they should of course have insisted on full tech support as part of the package, but somehow I doubt they did.

Exactly. I'm not suggesting Irish Rail should be omniscient, but I would've thought this would have come to light when testing the units. It has certainly come to light at this stage, and the problem isn't new, so it should certainly have been fixed under contractual obligations as you say.

Alun

Breezer wrote: »

This is my point: it's a specific piece of software, designed to do one job, and it can't do it, meaning it's pretty useless.

But we haven't established that it actually is a s/w problem though, have we? My money is on operator error to be honest.

Jehuty42

It probably works as suggested, the driver enters the route(the ID you see on IE's realtime page) (or, more likely, the driver just turns it on and it reads the ID from the signalling equipment), which is a list of destinations with some location info. As the train moves, the software updates the displays. The software would need an input of human read-able strings for names of destinations to match to its internal representation of destinations.

I suspect the problem is because this input to the software is wrong- the list of destinations is probably badly formatted or missing entries and out of date. So when the software tries to access and show the name of its destination from a location that should(from a human's point of view, semantically) have the string "Maynooth", that position in the input is actually "Carlow" or something since the list doesn't have the same number or order of destinations that the software expects. Not drivers or manufacturer at fault, but whoever maintains this software within IE- the software worked fine on delivery, but hasn't been fed the right data as new stations come on stream or are removed, as routes are changed. Garbage in, garbage out.

Cookie_Monster

Alun wrote: »

But we haven't established that it actually is a s/w problem though, have we? My money is on operator error to be honest.

the frontal display are likely the drivers fault, the internal DART ones would be software based on location rather than driver input I would imagine

Rashers72

The real question is can you find someone in Irish Rail who either cares, or commits to fixing it. Customer Service in Irish Rail has hit rock bottom recently. No announcements during delays, and never any staff on the platforms when you need them.
I have been using Irish trains for the past 20 years, and can safely say that despite the millions invested in recent years, the customer is now so far down the list, it is saddening. Forget about all the PR guys on the radio saying how great Irish Rail is, talk to daily users, and get the truth!:mad:

Alun

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the frontal display are likely the drivers fault, the internal DART ones would be software based on location rather than driver input I would imagine

Mostly what I see is that the locations displayed are in the right order, they're just out of synch by a stop or two which suggests to me that someone (i.e. the driver) has initialized the system incorrectly by, for example, entering the wrong current location at the start of a run or maybe forgetting to do it at all until after a stop or two and then initializing it too late. I'm just guessing really, nothing to back up that assertion.

Carawaystick

I used to get a train in Balbriggan that said it was going to Castleconnell ( & as Gaeilge freisin)
I was on a train last Tuesday, that was over an hour late leaving Pearse. as we eventually left Connolly heading northbound, the magic man on the announcements said "the next station is Tara Street"

I've seen the internal displays display the words backwords
ekil siht
and the also the sentences backwords
siht ekil


Also saw a sign in tara st this evening saying Darts had a 69% punctuality record for the time before 11th November.

BenShermin

In Poland the outside of most train carriages have a slot where a wooden tile showing train information is displayed. In my experience I've never seen this information to be wrong or misleading. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

Irish Rail really need to look at National Rail (UK) in operating modern PIS, I've honestly never been on a train in the UK showing the wrong information. I've been on trains where the system has broke down, however the conductor or driver has always just turned the system off and reverted to the old human announcement system when this happens. How bloody hard is it to do that?

kingshankly

Alun wrote: »

But we haven't established that it actually is a s/w problem though, have we? My money is on operator error to be honest.

i will take that bet thank you very much

Run_to_da_hills

BenShermin wrote: »

In Poland the outside of most train carriages have a slot where a wooden tile showing train information is displayed. In my experience I've never seen this information to be wrong or misleading. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

FS do similar.

KC61

As I said above - it is a software issue - nothing to do with drivers.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

As I said above - it is a software issue - nothing to do with drivers.

proof / source?

KC61

Do you have to doubt everything?

This was done to death on Rail Users website - there is a flaw with the 29k software hence the crazy destinations that appear such as Campile or Castleconnell.

What the problem is solving it I don't know - but there is a software problem.

And as Kingshankly is a train driver I would think he knows what is talking about.

kingshankly

every train journey be it passenger freight empty has a train Id (so you can be contacted via radio) when you enter your Id in the radio the computer on the 29s SHOULD recognize this journey when activated.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Do you have to doubt everything?

no, but if you post 1 line statements claiming to know without any kind of backup I think I have the right to ask. especially since you do it so often yet have nothing to do with CIE apart from being a passenger.

goingnowhere

Its actually a hardware problem of defective hardware combined with poor software design which leaves it unable to cope with faults

That said this gem defies all logical explanation

mroftalp eht dna niart eht neewteb pag eht dnim esaelp niart eht gnivael sregnessaP .pots lanif eht si sihT .adehgorD si noitats txen ehT

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no, but if you post 1 line statements claiming to know without any kind of backup I think I have the right to ask. especially since you do it so often yet have nothing to do with CIE apart from being a passenger.

Which I don't - I work in the private sector in a completely different industry.

However I do read all the other transport related websites and I have had 25 years + observing public transport in Ireland, which does offer me perhaps a wider scope than some posters here.

As a general comment (I emphasise general), it is very easy to pick the staff as a target but quite often it isn't their fault and there are underlying problems behind issues such as this.

I just find that some people here tend to immediately leap to what they consider are obvious conclusions, when if they bothered to perhaps sit back and consider the situation and perhaps do a little research then they wouldn't make these mistakes.

I guess the old maxim less haste, more speed springs to mind......

loyatemu

the fault where it lists a whole bunch of unconnected stations, or lists the stations backwards is clearly a software bug.

Much more common though is where system starts off ok but gets stuck at a particular station and stays there, which appears to be a problem with the GPS or track circuit mechanism, or where it is still displaying the info from the previous journey (ie a train heading from Howth still displaying "This is a northbound train to Howth)

Whatever the issue there must be some onus on the driver to check the information displayed is correct and if it isn't reset the system or turn it off. There is no excuse for pulling into a station with a Wexford-bound train and the display showing "Maynooth".

KC61

As an observation on that - a display could be correct when the driver sets it - he is not going to be aware if it is incorrect subsequent to that.

You're right though - if it isn't working it should be switched off, but someone needs to tell the driver as he can't see the display!

loyatemu

KC61 wrote: »

he can't see the display!

really?? there's 2 displays in every carriage and external displays on the front back and sides of the train, but there's no display in the cab where the actual control system is?

Run_to_da_hills

It wouldn't take much for CIE to fit a small observation display in the cab for the driver to monitor.

KC61

loyatemu wrote: »

really?? there's 2 displays in every carriage and external displays on the front back and sides of the train, but there's no display in the cab where the actual control system is?

He can see the ID that he has input (which would be correct) but not the actual displays as far as I'm aware - he'd have to get off the train to see them which given many trains start in a yard is a tad difficult.

It's the on-screen displays that are coming up incorrect - not the inputting.

loyatemu

KC61 wrote: »

He can see the ID that he has input (which would be correct) but not the actual displays as far as I'm aware - he'd have to get off the train to see them which given many trains start in a yard is a tad difficult.

terrible system design if that is the case.

testicle

KC61 wrote: »

I have had 25 years + observing public transport in Ireland, which does offer me perhaps a wider scope than some posters here.

the_syco

Personally, the most often f**k up is when the train thinks it's going the opposite direction. It gets one stop correct, and the rest... meh. I treat it like the bus: look at the signs, and know where to jump off, or ask someone who doesn't look like a junkie about a certain stop.

KC61

testicle wrote: »

Ha ha. Thanks very much, but there is no need to be insulting!

My interest is in the business of public transport in Ireland rather than standing at the ends of platforms.

Some people seem to think that because one has an interest in public transport that it means one of the following:
1) You must work for the transport company
2) You must have some professional involvement
3) You must be a trainspotter

None of the above are true - I am a customer like most posters here. I certainly do make regular contact with various bodies involved in the industry (local authorities, NTA, transport companies) in that capacity (a customer) but that does not make me anything more than someone who is interested in the industry.

Perhaps you might think before you post in future and show a little more tolerance towards fellow posters - I'm certainly not going to descend to that level of abuse.

shamwari

I've noticed the apparent "re-emergence" of certain people and comments in C&T which I thought we were once rid of. I hope (and say) with the greatest of respect to all concerned, that the moderators deal appropriately with this. It's a sad world when you can't offer any kind of considered, educated or informed opinion without being insulted with the short of crap like above.

-Chris-

shamwari wrote: »

I've noticed the apparent "re-emergence" of certain people and comments in C&T which I thought we were once rid of. I hope (and say) with the greatest of respect to all concerned, that the moderators deal appropriately with this. It's a sad world when you can't offer any kind of considered, educated or informed opinion without being insulted with the short of crap like above.

I'm sure if you were properly offended by it, you'd have reported the post.

It's dealt with, let's move on.

As for "re-emergence" of certain people and comments - same thing, report it and it'll be dealt with as appropriate. No point giving out on thread.

I've seen this being done on an ICR, the driver keys in the train ID and the PIS is set accordingly. The driver can hear the announcements in the cab while the train is moving and I'm pretty sure the diagnostics screen shows what is on the displays at the time.

It can happen where the driver fails to enter the train ID correctly, in this case I'd say the wrong info would be sent to the PIS. However I don't know if it would cause your train to claim it's going from Dublin to Westport via Rathmore and Wellingtonbridge! Failing to enter the correct ID causes problems with the train radio so I don't think it's a common error.