Willow as a lesbian

nyarlothothep

I thought the decision to turn her into a lesbian was a bad one, it just didn't fit her history. I think it would have worked if she became a lesbian in a rebound kind of way following the fallout with Oz and then quickly changed back. In addition I found that her witch phase was again at odds with what she was originally about. She should have been a computer programmer instead who solved problems through coding magic.

Handsome Bob

I did feel that it was something that came out of nowhere. I would of liked it if they just described Tara and Willow as two people who just fell in love rather than Willow being fully gay. I mean all her life she pined after men such as Xander, Oz and some others without a hint of ever by sexually attracted to women. I felt that her relationship with that girl in the final season was really forced too.

nyarlothothep

Interesting, strangely enough there is an episode where vamp willow from an alternate reality is bi-sexual. She gets brought into the original "good" universe when anya performs a spell with Willow to restore the "evil" universe so she can be re-instated as a vengeance demon. Willow remarks to the scooby gang that vamp willow is like her except "evil" and "kinda gay" and something along the lines of it not related to being a vampire. Angel is about to say that actually turning into a vampire accentuates latent aspects to ones persona but he stops short when he realizes he may offend Willow and everyone else under the tense circumstances. So Willows gayness was already suggested early on in the second/third season. Ultimately I thought the lesbian relationship thing was different for a mainstream US tv show, but I think it would have been more in keeping with the character if she was bi or just getting revenge on Oz. But yeah I think things really declined quite a bit in the last 2 or 3 seasons when it got too dark. Half the appeal of Buffy was the p1sstaking element which I felt they lost, there were too many montage endings with the characters reacting to a given event which got a bit corny after a while.

Faith

Joss said that he was always planning to make either Willow or Xander gay. I never bought into Willow being gay though, and I have to say that I hated her relationship with Tara. Willow and Oz were an amazing couple, but I just didn't feel it with Tara.

I agree with LZ that the relationship with the potential felt forced.

nyarlothothep

I think the character of Tara and the actress who played her weren't great, although millions of fans would disagree, when they killed off her character there was a huge influx of irate letters. I don't think there was any need to make any of the characters gay, they could have just brought in a new addition and made them gay instead.

Handsome Bob

Hated Tara in Season 4, mainly because I felt that the pacing of the storyline was all wrong. But by the time she died in Season 6, I really liked her character. She was a rock for both Buffy and Willow.

Earthhorse

The real problem with this was that Joss had originally planned to have a central role for Oz in season 4 but the actor decided to leave because he wasn't getting enough screentime (I don't mean that in an egotistical way, he was sort of like a permanent extra that season and you can see why he'd want something more substantial). Anyway, this left Joss in a bit of a picle and I think he took a really lazy way out of it (thought I love the man*); Willow wakes up one day and is gay. That's basically what happened. Pretty poor and difficult to believe. Something like that is fundamental to a character even if the show wasn't about sexuality per se. It's hard to feel like it's the old Willow (because it isn't the old Willow really) when the change is so sudden.

*Foreshadowing?!? :eek:

Handsome Bob

Earthhorse wrote: »

The real problem with this was that Joss had originally planned to have a central role for Oz in season 4 but the actor decided to leave because he wasn't getting enough screentime (I don't mean that in an egotistical way, he was sort of like a permanent extra that season and you can see why he'd want something more substantial). Anyway, this left Joss in a bit of a picle and I think he took a really lazy way out of it (thought I love the man*); Willow wakes up one day and is gay. That's basically what happened. Pretty poor and difficult to believe. Something like that is fundamental to a character even if the show wasn't about sexuality per se. It's hard to feel like it's the old Willow (because it isn't the old Willow really) when the change is so sudden.

*Foreshadowing?!? :eek:

I never knew Seth wanted out! It makes sense though, I mean Seth was just a glorified extra in Season 3. TBH I never understood why Seth was in the credits for Season 3 yet Amber never got that for Season 5/6.

But I do think Joss was always toying with turning one of the Scoobies gay, he was just unsure between Willow and Xander.

Earthhorse

Yup, and it may even have worked. Joss could have written the transition very skillfully. Instead he literally "made" one of the characters gay.

Think I read that about Seth on the Buffy stuff on IMDB or else on that Onion AV thing where the guy watches Buffy and Angel on DVD years after they were broadcast. It's interesting watch people come up with excuses for what you personally consider to be awful writing decisions. :pac:

Handsome Bob

Earthhorse wrote: »

Yup, and it may even have worked. Joss could have written the transition very skillfully. Instead he literally "made" one of the characters gay.

Think I read that about Seth on the Buffy stuff on IMDB or else on that Onion AV thing where the guy watches Buffy and Angel on DVD years after they were broadcast. It's interesting watch people come up with excuses for what you personally consider to be awful writing decisions. :pac:

I know exactly what you mean, it's a general problem I have with the writing of Buffy and Willow. I think the likes of Riley and Tara were good characters, but they became serious love interests way too quickly. In the case of Willow, Oz left and she was brokenhearted, then out of nowhere she falls in love with Tara. Then after Tara bites the dust, she starts a somewhat serious relationship with Kennedy. I don't think Joss understands the concept of a slow burner. :P

Earthhorse

He did. Or does. If I remember correctly he backed off a little from control of Season 4 to focus his efforts on Angel.

Morlar

It always seemed like she resorted to lesbianism out of an unrequited love or some kind of esteem issues, which would be a dis-service to lesbians in general. It didn't sit well with me either, there was an element of voyeurism about the whole willow + Tara thing imo.

iguana

Willow being gay, or at least bisexual, was foreshadowed in season 3. In Dopplegangerland Vamp Willow got all "cosy" with her. And after she got away from her Willow said, "That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil and skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay."

I think, though it would have made a lot more sense for her to have been bisexual. She loved Xander for most of her life and was in love with and clearly sexually attracted to Oz. I initially didn't like Tara, but came to love her in season 6 when she started standing up to Willow about changing her memory.

I HATED Kennedey. She was a bratty little cow with no redeeming qualities. I could have dealt with her if she'd been a bit of a fling for Willow to help her move on after Tara's death. But I could never buy her as Willows true love.

iguana

LZ5by5 wrote: »

TBH I never understood why Seth was in the credits for Season 3 yet Amber never got that for Season 5/6.

Amber Benson was in the credits in season 6 episode Seeing Red. It was a master-stroke as after she's just been promoted her character's death was more unbelievably shocking.

Being in the credits is a financial thing more than artistic. Seth Green was very famous in the late 90s. As a main character he would earn a lot more money and be entitled to more royalties. He just obviously had a much better agent than Benson.

Tar.Aldarion

It never really worked like with oz, not as believable. She shouldn't have just switched to girls completely. Would have liked more magic in it without it going mental though

Dull and Boring

Oz was such a likeable character, and to go from him to Tara who was just annoying particularly early on, I didn't like it.

That was the same problem I had with Riley, Buffy moved from Angel to him (not directly but in terms of big relationships). I need time to heal before characters move on:P

nyarlothothep

Actually I was thinking about starting a thread about how Oz disasterously broke up with Willow but thought I'd be spamming the forum. I think that yes, he was a likeable character to an extent but he was an asshole in the way in which he broke up with her, first off sleeping with some random music chick the first chance he got, who turned out to be an agressive bully, then he dictates how the break up conversation with Willow will go, like he has any right to after his actions? Then when they break him out of the initiative, Willow says some really eloquent insightful stuff about always waiting for him in some part of her psyche and Oz just replies tough sh1t b1tch I gotta go, I mean seriously, if I was Oz I wouldn't have dumped her. Did this precipitate in her going out with Tara as a kind of extreme rebound (as in the male gender having treated her so badly made her completely reject it completely)? I don't know, all I do know is that Tara became a fairly cool character in her own right (granted she was a bit annoying initially). However the kennedy relationship was lame, should have made her bisexual rather than strictly gay ,it would have made more sense as Willow was a person of extremes, for example in season 6. I can see now why she became a misanthropic invincible mega witch intent on destroying the world, she got pushed around so much that it unleashed years of pent up fury.

Angel was quite rude to everyone.

Dull and Boring

It is a while since I have seen that series, but did Oz not cheat when he was a wolf so he couldn't actually remember it happening?

Also Willow had already cheated on him before with Xander

nyarlothothep

I never knew that. I think Oz was pretty much cheating on her wholesale and using the werewolf thing as an excuse. Seems that according to the logic of the plot it was a serious breach of trust.

Dull and Boring

Oh sorry, hope I haven't ruined anything too much for you if you haven't seen all the series. I am re-watching it atm, still as good as first time around since I have forgotten a lot of the small story lines.

Anyway, from what I remember Oz had this inherent attraction to Veruca because they were both wolves but he tried not to cheat I thought, and didn't remember once it had happened. Did it happen again after that first time? I can't remember.

For me he still left as a likeable character.

S.M.B.

BtVS was consistently guilty of odd "leaps of faith" with characters like the willow\lesbian one. The show was never going to work as a full on character piece (although at times when it was focused on character dev it was done quite well).

iguana

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I never knew that. I think Oz was pretty much cheating on her wholesale and using the werewolf thing as an excuse. Seems that according to the logic of the plot it was a serious breach of trust.

Were you watching the same show? Verruca pursued Oz who was only ever interested in her because his wolf self could sense hers. They only ever slept together while wolves, when Oz locked her up with him so she couldn't go on rampage. Oz (as a wolf) brutally killed Verruca when she threatened Willow. Then Oz left as he knew he couldn't go on letting the Wolf have any control over him and hurting those he loved. He told Willow he only ever loved her.

ilovejames

I thought it was so funny when Oz found out Willow had turned lesbian when he could smell Willow all over Tara :eek:

Dull and Boring

ilovejames wrote: »

I thought it was so funny when Oz found out Willow had turned lesbian when he could smell Willow all over Tara :eek:

I just saw that episode the other night:D He jumped to that conclusion very quickly I thought, she smelled like Willow so they must be lesbians:p

I am watching that series atm and even watching it again I still think it came out of nowhere. Perhaps they were limited about what they could/decided to show and so they couldn't do a first kiss etc like in other instances. They hopped from being friends to in a relationship very quickly.

norrie rugger

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I know exactly what you mean, it's a general problem I have with the writing of Buffy and Willow. I think the likes of Riley and Tara were good characters, but they became serious love interests way too quickly. In the case of Willow, Oz left and she was brokenhearted, then out of nowhere she falls in love with Tara. Then after Tara bites the dust, she starts a somewhat serious relationship with Kennedy. I don't think Joss understands the concept of a slow burner. :P

Very good slow burner between Mal and Inara

iguana

Dull and Boring wrote: »

Perhaps they were limited about what they could/decided to show and so they couldn't do a first kiss etc like in other instances.

Willow and Tara's first kiss, in S5 episode - The Body, was the first lesbian couple kiss on US network television. Up until Willow and Tara there had been a very small number of shows that had featured two women kissing but it was always a straight character having 1 kiss out of curiosity (read as a ratings grabber).

Warner Brothers were massively opposed to Willow and Tara having any physical relationship on screen. Marti Noxon said about it "you can show girls kissing once, but you can't show them kissing twice ... because the second time, it means that they liked it" The WB had all sorts of arbitrary rules on their relationship. Their first kiss was "buried" as it happened in the episode where Joyce has just died and WB only agreed to leave the scene is as Whedon threatened to walk if they cut it, and they were allowed shoot the girls on a bed but only over the covers and fully clothed. It wasn't until S6, when Buffy moved to UPN that the restrictions were lifted.

Dull and Boring

iguana wrote: »

Willow and Tara's first kiss, in S5 episode - The Body, was the first lesbian couple kiss on US network television. Up until Willow and Tara there had been a very small number of shows that had featured two women kissing but it was always a straight character having 1 kiss out of curiosity (read as a ratings grabber).

Warner Brothers were massively opposed to Willow and Tara having any physical relationship on screen. Marti Noxon said about it "you can show girls kissing once, but you can't show them kissing twice ... because the second time, it means that they liked it" The WB had all sorts of arbitrary rules on their relationship. Their first kiss was "buried" as it happened in the episode where Joyce has just died and they were allowed shoot the girls on a bed but only over the covers and fully clothed. It wasn't until S6, when Buffy moved to UPN that the restrictions were lifted.

Thanks for that iguana. I couldn't remember them having a first kiss. It is a while since I seen that series. I am just re-watching series 4 and it seems like something that should have happened in the build up to their relationship as it would have if they weren't lesbians.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know that, interesting. Hard to believe it was such a big deal.

iguana

Dull and Boring wrote: »

Thanks for that iguana. I couldn't remember them having a first kiss. It is a while since I seen that series. I am just re-watching series 4 and it seems like something that should have happened in the build up to their relationship as it would have if they weren't lesbians.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know that, interesting. Hard to believe it was such a big deal.

Yeah, I absolutely never had a clue that their first kiss was that late into the series until I was looking up the first ever gay kiss on tv a few years back. It's actually so weird as US tv seems to be about 20 years behind UK tv in this regard. Whedon said that when they decided to shoot the first kiss they had to do it in a way that it wouldn't be noticeable and Willow and Tara were an established couple who were living together for nearly a year at the time. So he didn't want it to attract attention.

Sadly as Willow and Tara were the first ever long-term lesbian couple on tv they obviously got a lot of flak for that from homophobes. But also when they decided to kill Tara, just after they had their first scenes in bed together, as they were accused of making lesbian sex = death parallels. Which is unfair considering the first straight sex ever seen on the show resulted in the girl losing her virginity to a man who becomes sadistically evil, threatens her friends, kills their pets and girlfriend, tries to destroy her relationship with her mother and repeatedly tries to bring about the apocalypse, forcing her to eventually kill him.

The Mad Hatter

norrie rugger wrote: »

Very good slow burner between Mal and Inara

There was an unfilmed script for an episode called Dead or Alive which hints at a romance developing between Simon and Inara for a little while, I guess distracting both of them from their "main" love interests for a series or so.

Kimia

Willow being gay was foreshadowed as Iguana said well before she actually came out or started a relationship with Tara.

I don't think she should have been portrayed as gay though. I think it would have made more sense if she had been more gender-neutral and it's the person who she finds attractive, not the fact that they are a man or a woman. I think that would have been more in line with her Wiccan beliefs and the way her personality changes throughout the series.