The Guardian speaks of Irish public sector pay

Tim Robbins

Public sector pay is an old chestnut around here. However, a different angle as now the Guardian are on to it...

GUARDIAN wrote:

Ireland's 'morbidly obese cats' and runaway public sector pay

David Cameron thinks public sector is run by 'fat cats' he should look at Ireland where public salaries have remained untouched even with the arrival of the IMF

In June this year, the UK government released the names of 171 public servants who were earning more than £150,000.

John Fingleton, the head of the Office of Fair Trading was the top earner on £259,999 with NHS chief executive David Nicholson, in second place on £255,000. Hold that figure in your head for a moment.

Public sector pay is under attack in the UK as it is in Ireland - on Friday, Eric Pickles, the local government secretary, insisted that he will no longer tolerate salaries higher than David Cameron's basic pay of £142,500.

But if the UK public sector is full of "fat cats", the Irish public sector is full of "morbidly obese cats".

Tomorrow the Irish public face the most austere budget in the nation's history and public sector pay and pensions is at last on the agenda. But it is highly unlikely there will be any cuts that see top earners taking home less than the prime minister.

So back to Fingleton's pay of £255,000. It's not like for like, but the following will give you a flavour of the runaway public sector pay in Ireland.
Runaway pay won't be really tackled in Ireland

The highest paid public sector boss in Ireland takes home a staggering €752,568 (£637,000) – that is Electricity Supply Board chief, Padraig McManus. The average salary at the ESB is €70,000 - making them the highest paid electricity workers in the world.

The second highest paid public sector boss is Declan Collier, the head of the Dublin Airport Authority who is on a package worth €568,100 while the head of An Post is on €500,000 and the head of the forestry commission, Coillte is on a tidy €417,000.

In fact, so much financial cholesterol is coursing through the veins of the Irish public and semi-state sector, a report earlier this summer found that 66 public servants in Ireland receive more than €500,000 each including 37 judges, the head of the controversial National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, and the head of the National Treasury Management Agency, which looks after the country's public finances.

Pay at the upper echelons of the public sector escaped anything but cursory attention in the four-year plan when it was published 10 days ago because it is such a political hot potato.

The government now seems to have grasped the nettle with reports it will cap public sector pay at €250,000.

But it is unlikely to have any immediate impact as it won't include anyone who's under contract at the moment, so it could be some years and some governments down the line before it is implemented. And by then, the country could be further under the water.
Will the government be brave and cut the tail?

So will this government or opposition parties on arrival in the Dail next year be brave enough to cut the tail off and invite the bosses of the semi-state and state sectors to take a voluntary cut now?

It would be an extremely image-unconscious semi-state chief executive who would turn around and say: "No, I'll take you to court on that."
Listen!

Today the head of Bord Gais John Mullins told RTE he would be happy to work for €250,000. He currently takes home a package of €394,000.

"My basic salary is just above 250 at this point in time I'm unsure whether the 250,000 is a total package cap or whether it's basic salary.

I would do the job for €250,000 … I have 24 months to go and if it has to be capped it has to be capped," Mullins told Morning Ireland.

But it isn't just fat cat salaries in the public sector that is an issue – it is the perks and benefits of workers throughout the system and the fact that neither the four-year plan, the budget or the IMF have tackled the controversial Croke Park Agreement which guarantees public sector pay levels. The IMF will intervene later in 2011 if efficiencies haven't been achieved through reforms, but there is a feeling again not nearly enough mettle is being shown at political level.

Readers in the UK might be shocked to hear that some public sector workers still get paid 30 minutes a week "banking time" to pay in cheques, even though salaries have been paid electronically for an aeon.

Or that some civil servants are entitled to two "privilege" leave days which were originally introduced back in the 1940s to allow them travel back to Dublin from the country after a bank holiday weekend when the trip might have taken a day.

Or that there was controversy last week that some civil servants could avail of a half-paid day's leave for Christmas shopping.

Or that a concert pianist was getting €225,000 for part-time positions as a director and teacher with the Royal Irish Academy of Music.

Or that workers in semi-state owned firms including Aer Lingus and Eircom were given a 15% stake in the company by the architect of the Celtic Tiger, Bertie "spend, spend, spend" Ahern.

Debate in the UK on public sector pay is way ahead of Ireland. David Cameron last week received the interim report from Will Hutton who suggests linking top earners salary with those of the lowest to stop the "arms race" in public pay getting out of control.

The review found there were about 20,000 public-sector employees earning more than £117,000, while average salaries for executives were £200,000 for heads of universities, £150,000 for NHS Hospital Trust chief executives, £117,000 for local authority chiefs, £170,000 for four-star generals and £160,000 for permanent secretaries in government departments.

Income Data Services in the UK, an independent body which tracks private and public sector pay, in the UK, said today there were only "handfuls of individuals" in the public sector who earn 20 times the lowest paid.

"One possible perverse effect of the Hutton report is that some organisations might look at this pay review and decided to increase the salaries of the top executives," said Ken Mulhearne, editor of the IDS Pay Report.

The government is likely to announce it will cap public sector and semi-sector salaries to €250,000, but there has to be a more systemic approach which will tackle civil service, politicians pay and semi-state pay.
Some Irish v UK Salaries

UK: Prime minister David Cameron - £142,500.
Ireland: Taoiseach Brian Cowen - €228,446 (£193,250.01)
Who's on top? Ireland

UK: NHS chief executive David Nicolson - £255,000
Ireland: HSE chief executive Cathal Magee – salary of €322,000 (£272,390.43)
Who's on top? Ireland

Department of finance
UK: Treasury permanent secretary, Sir Nicholas Macpherson £175,000
Ireland: Department of finance's secretary general, Kevin Cardiff €228,446 (£193,250.01)
Who's on top? Ireland

An Post
UK: Royal Mail managing director Mark Middleton £154,999
Ireland: An Post chief executive Donal Connell €500,000 (£423,097.31)
Who's on top? Ireland

Top 10 earners in the Irish public sector (state and semi-state)

1. Head of ESB: €752,568
2. Head of Dublin Airport Authority: €568,100
3. Head of An Post: €500,000
4. Head of Coillte, the forestry commission €417,000
5. Head of Voluntary Health Insurance: €412,003
6. Head of Bord Gais: €394,000
7. Head of Bord na Mona (turf energy agency): €392,000
8. Head of RTE: (TV): €326,000
9. Head of CIE (transport): €252,416
10. Head of Health Services Executive: €335,913

So what do we think?
What does the head of TV3 ger? I doubt it's 326K?

ei.sdraob

If THE LEFTIE newspaper thinks that our public servants pay is "morbidly obese"

the one has to really start to wonder, no?

Tim Robbins

ei.sdraob wrote: »

If THE LEFTIE newspaper thinks that our public servants pay is "morbidly obese"

the one has to really start to wonder, no?

The head of the ESB on 750 thousand?

No wonder why peoples' bills are so expensive....

Gumbo

i know the UK is a much cheaper place to live, but our top earners dont deserve that much.

ei.sdraob

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The head of the ESB on 750 thousand?

No wonder why peoples' bills are so expensive....

That and the "regulator" deliberately fixing prices high in order to give the windmill farms a subsidy, as they would not be viable otherwise.

Now that I think of it in all my time in the ESB HQ I never seen the guy about the place, hmmm....

kceire wrote: »

i know the UK is a much cheaper place to live, but our top earners dont deserve that much.

wages and cost of living are directly related and feed into each other

rumour

Amazing it will take foreign pressure to sort this out.

I hope Cameron, Merkel, Sarkozy and Oli Rehn get a good read of this today and know where their fund is really going to.

Roll on the nine months of PS reform. They haven't a chance at reform because of their collective stupidity. Then the tap will be turned off. FF have cleverly (but not honourably) manoeuvred this problem to the next government.

I'm thinking it may not be so bad with a labour government. They'll be exposed and crushed very quickly. This is probably the only way to secure real reform in Ireland the labour and union ideology being exposed clearly for what it is, a load of nonsense that cannot be delivered.

yop

As long as the banks are going to be ok, Oli Rein etc won't give a sh*T, if Ireland Inc continues to pay out this level to them muppets all it means is that Irelands debt will be greater and we will owe even more to the EU, pushing ourselves towards bust.

No one will change them boys salaries, its a clic, sown up and the rest of us stew.

ToxicPaddy

Unfortunately it seems that the country is still being run by the mafia that is the public sector and its Unions who have brought the country to a standstill by its industrial action.. blue flu, passport office go slow etc..

The fact remains, that any Gov in power will have to bow to these lot because they are constantly holding the country to ransom and demanding ridiculous pay packages as if its their God given right to do so.. :mad: :rolleyes:

rumour

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

Unfortunately it seems that the country is still being run by the mafia that is the public sector and its Unions who have brought the country to a standstill by its industrial action.. blue flu, passport office go slow etc..

The fact remains, that any Gov in power will have to bow to these lot because they are constantly holding the country to ransom and demanding ridiculous pay packages as if its their God given right to do so.. :mad: :rolleyes:

You're right. The crux of the problem is our governments inability to go at them. Solution join government and the unions (rather like what Bertie did) by voting labour. Then they are all in the one place.

EU and IMF have the money and can confront the problem directly as it is not fragmented. labour and the Unions will then be hamstrung by what they can deliver to people with nowhere to go. Finally they will be exposed for what they are.

Unfortunately this has a few consequences.

1. We will have a few more years of pain before we even start to get better, never mind being healthy again.
2. There is a distinct possibility the Irish will revert to blaming EU & IMF preferring to be victims and completely ignore their resposibility. Consequenece is we are likley to form little cliques to resist authority and repeat our history all over again.

The second one concerns me the most.

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

i know the UK is a much cheaper place to live, but our top earners dont deserve that much.

I spent 7 years living in Wiltshire and I didn't find it was a much cheaper place to leave.....there were marginal savings definitely, but certainly not substantial.

swampgas

sarumite wrote: »

I spent 7 years living in Wiltshire and I didn't find it was a much cheaper place to leave.....there were marginal savings definitely, but certainly not substantial.

There seems to be a big disconnect between those who have lived overseas for any length of time and those who have only lived in Ireland. I have lived in Canada, Australia, and the UK for years at a time, and have had shorter stints in other countries too.

Tax was generally reasonably high compared to current rates in Ireland, and there were many other charges as well - in the UK for example, I was paying £1600 per annum in council charges - and that didn't include the water charges. In Canada I was paying over 50% deductions in total from my gross salary, and I wasn't particularly well paid.

I still had a reasonably good standard of living everywhere I lived, but there seems to be huge misconception among those who have not lived abroad about what "reasonable taxation" actually means.

spider guardian

the head of coillte on €417000?! for sitting around watching trees grow?

And semi-state workers earning on average of €130 more than their private-sector counterparts (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/semistate-staff-earn-euro130-more-a-week-than-private-sector-2355229.html), for the privilege of more job security and perks!

It's actually taken a severe financial crisis for these salaries to be capped, was there ever going to be any other outcome given the waste that is going on.

RichardAnd

rumour wrote: »

You're right. The crux of the problem is our governments inability to go at them. Solution join government and the unions (rather like what Bertie did) by voting labour. Then they are all in the one place.

EU and IMF have the money and can confront the problem directly as it is not fragmented. labour and the Unions will then be hamstrung by what they can deliver to people with nowhere to go. Finally they will be exposed for what they are.

Unfortunately this has a few consequences.

1. We will have a few more years of pain before we even start to get better, never mind being healthy again.
2. There is a distinct possibility the Irish will revert to blaming EU & IMF preferring to be victims and completely ignore their resposibility. Consequenece is we are likley to form little cliques to resist authority and repeat our history all over again.

The second one concerns me the most.

And the latter is most likely what we will get. For the last two years, we've blamed FF, the Bankers and their concomitants without looking at a deeper problem; Irish greed, laziness and inability to adapt.

Sadly, this whole mess will probably be blamed on the IMF and not one lesson will be learned. In another 20-30 years, we'll all be back on the boards trading the blame for our next recession.

Sizzler

It gets better! The new rules they are bringing in wont effect the people who are already getting these top dollar salaries are unaffected.

The fact that the govt wont put a knife through these obvious savings speaks volumes for their inepititude and still doing their best to look after the boys.

Farcical.

doc_17

I can never figure that out. How come there are contractual reasons why they can't cut the pay of the head men at the semi-states while there seems to be no problem cutting the pay of 300k PS workers overnight?

Wait til the judges take the case that new entrants (ie new judges) are being discriminated against.

I've askeds this before but might as well ask again now...Do newly elected TDs get 10% less the same way new teachers and gaurds are getting?

dissed doc

doc_17 wrote: »

I can never figure that out. How come there are contractual reasons why they can't cut the pay of the head men at the semi-states while there seems to be no problem cutting the pay of 300k PS workers overnight?

Wait til the judges take the case that new entrants (ie new judges) are being discriminated against.

I've askeds this before but might as well ask again now...Do newly elected TDs get 10% less the same way new teachers and gaurds are getting?

RTE is a Pravda-esque mouthpiece of the government. They need it onside. The phrase "contractual reasons" is no different to "it's a matter for the HSE".

Like you said, the government enforced new contract terms unilaterally on all the other state employees.

cson

There is only one word to describe the disparity between the respective heads of the Post Office: Insane.

Over 300% more than the UK? :eek:

The. Mind. Boggles.

RGS

Whilst i agree that the salaries of the CEO'S in the irish semi states are OTT but the article in the Guardian is factually incorrect, especially in relation to An Post and the Royal Mail.

"UK: Royal Mail managing director Mark Middleton £154,999
Ireland: An Post chief executive Donal Connell €500,000 (£423,097.31)"

Moya Greene is the CEO of the Royal Mail who is paid £500,000 per year. She was appointed earlie this year.
She replaced Adam Crozier who was earning close to a million pounds sterling a year.

Head The Wall

ei.sdraob wrote: »

That and the "regulator" deliberately fixing prices high in order to give the windmill farms a subsidy, as they would not be viable otherwise.

I have posted about this before but the bulk (around 70%) of the PSO levy goes to two ESB peat plants, the third privately owned peat plant only gets around 4% even though it has roughly the same capacity. Very little actually goes towards renewable energies.

It all seems to be feed it's way back into the ESB unfortunately

MrMatisse

I think sometimes the huge salaries at the top are used to bash people on lower wages.

Browney7

This was discussed over on the main politics forum.

Semi State salaries need to seriously be looked at but they are not part of the public sector. No pension levy and no pay formal pay freezes I think.

Euroland

All public sector salaries should be capped at 100,000 euros per annum. Those who don't like it - get lost and let the others work on such salary.

Gumbo

Browney7 wrote: »

This was discussed over on the main politics forum.

Semi State salaries need to seriously be looked at but they are not part of the public sector. No pension levy and no pay formal pay freezes I think.

No pension levy correct.
ESB have a salary freeze the last 2 years and for the foreseeable future. (based on admin side/non-technical, shes earning mid 20's)

doc_17

Euroland wrote: »

All public sector salaries should be capped at 100,000 euros per annum. Those who don't like it - get lost and let the others work on such salary.

Yeah paying administrators 100k+ is wrong. But consider this. A world class surgeon is told by Ireland: here you go 100k take it or leave it. Now after his substantial taxes he'd be left with 60k. He might not accept that so he leaves. Would you like the out of work waitress to pick up the slack and scalpel? And start cutting into you?

Browney7

kceire wrote: »

No pension levy correct.
ESB have a salary freeze the last 2 years and for the foreseeable future. (based on admin side/non-technical, shes earning mid 20's)

Thanks for that. Wasn't sure about pay freezes.

gizmo555

doc_17 wrote: »

Yeah paying administrators 100k+ is wrong. But consider this. A world class surgeon is told by Ireland: here you go 100k take it or leave it. Now after his substantial taxes he'd be left with 60k. He might not accept that so he leaves. Would you like the out of work waitress to pick up the slack and scalpel? And start cutting into you?

The long-negotiated [medical] consultants’ contract introduced in 2008 allows for changed work practices that are and will continue to result in improved patient care. This contract agreed starting salaries for Irish consultants two to three times those of their English or Swedish counterparts . . .

Bringing consultants pay in line with their European equivalents could yield over €150 million each year. In addition, as Anthony Staines proposed on the pages of this paper just a month ago (October 2nd, 2010), levying dual-practising consultants for 50 per cent of their private earnings could bring in another €175 million.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1108/1224282865526.html

What is the justification for paying consultants here up to three times as much as in England or Sweden? Do we get healthcare that is two to three times better as a result?

ei.sdraob

gizmo555 wrote: »

What is the justification for paying consultants here up to three times as much as in England or Sweden? Do we get healthcare that is two to three times better as a result?

They would otherwise move elsewhere where they get paid more .... .... er no :P

Euroland

doc_17 wrote: »

Yeah paying administrators 100k+ is wrong. But consider this. A world class surgeon is told by Ireland: here you go 100k take it or leave it. Now after his substantial taxes he'd be left with 60k. He might not accept that so he leaves. Would you like the out of work waitress to pick up the slack and scalpel? And start cutting into you?

Let's be clear, Ireland doesn't have world class surgeons, and never will. The current health care system is on a level with the poorest 3rd world countries. So everyone who wants the job would have to adjust to the reality. Otherwise would be replaced by the doctors/surgeons from Eastern Europe, which would be very happy to work on salaries within the 50-100K Euro a year range.

Mountjoy Mugger

kceire wrote: »

ESB have a salary freeze the last 2 years and for the foreseeable future.

Are you sure?

http://www.corkindependent.com/local-news/local-news/calls-for-esb-to-freeze-3.5-per-cent-pay-increase-/

Freeze only agreed in August according to this article.

RobbieTheRobber

Euroland wrote: »

Let's be clear, Ireland doesn't have world class surgeons, and never will. The current health care system is on a level with the poorest 3rd world countries. So everyone who wants the job would have to adjust to the reality. Otherwise would be replaced by the doctors/surgeons from Eastern Europe, which would be very happy to work on salaries within the 50-100K Euro a year range.

3rd world?

Yes there is mismanagment yes there are problems with the structure of our public sector organisations but there is no need to go over the top here.

I think the WHO (World Health Organisation) ranks us in the top 20 in the world.
http://www.orthocuban.com/2009/08/top-world-healthcare-systems/

I cant find a link on the actual WHO site but I will get back to you when I do

Euroland

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

3rd world?

Yes there is mismanagment yes there are problems with the structure of our public sector organisations but there is no need to go over the top here.

I think the WHO (World Health Organisation) ranks us in the top 20 in the world.
http://www.orthocuban.com/2009/08/top-world-healthcare-systems/

I cant find a link on the actual WHO site but I will get back to you when I do

It is not about the rankings. It is about the knowledge our GPs/doctors/consultants possess. They already became the laughing stock of Europe, and beyond.

RobbieTheRobber

Euroland wrote: »

It is not about the rankings. It is about the knowledge our GPs/doctors/consultants possess. They already became the laughing stock of Europe, and beyond.

I dont accept that, I believe our doctors are valued. One of the reasons for our ranking in the WHO list is the capability of our medical staff from nurses to doctors.

Can you give some evidence that suggest they are not valued?

Rodin

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

3rd world?

Yes there is mismanagment yes there are problems with the structure of our public sector organisations but there is no need to go over the top here.

I think the WHO (World Health Organisation) ranks us in the top 20 in the world.
http://www.orthocuban.com/2009/08/top-world-healthcare-systems/

I cant find a link on the actual WHO site but I will get back to you when I do

On what basis do you doubt the skill level of Irish surgeons?

keithclancy

Euroland wrote: »

It is not about the rankings. It is about the knowledge our GPs/doctors/consultants possess. They already became the laughing stock of Europe, and beyond.

What exactly are you basing this on ?

Gumbo

Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »

Are you sure?

http://www.corkindependent.com/local-news/local-news/calls-for-esb-to-freeze-3.5-per-cent-pay-increase-/

Freeze only agreed in August according to this article.

yes, they were told 2 years ago that all pay increases were stopped and all bonus payments stopped.
the link you posted shows the 3.5% that was the Towards 2016 agreed pay increases that were stopped also, which were also stopped in the Public Sector, but if you recall, AIB gave their staff their 3.5% increase.

The Muppet

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The highest paid public sector boss in Ireland takes home a staggering €752,568 (£637,000) – that is Electricity Supply Board chief, Padraig McManus. The average salary at the ESB is €70,000 - making them the highest paid electricity workers in the world.

spider guardian wrote: »

(http://www.independent.ie/national-news/semistate-staff-earn-euro130-more-a-week-than-private-sector-2355229.html),
The largest national workplace survey ever compiled reveals average weekly earnings of workers in enterprises like the ESB and Bord Gais are €808.83, compared with €792.32 in the public sector and €678.35 in the private sector.

Someone needs to brush up on their maths or research skills. € 808.83 a week does not add up to €70000 a year.

Euroland

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I dont accept that, I believe our doctors are valued. One of the reasons for our ranking in the WHO list is the capability of our medical staff from nurses to doctors.

Can you give some evidence that suggest they are not valued?

You just have to travel more and have experience living in several countries. Believe me, despite reasonably good medical equipment, our GPs/doctors/consultants have poor knowledge relatively to their colleagues in other countries, but charge significantly more. Many of them don’t even deserve 50K Euro salaries. Just one example, about a year ago I went to a local GP with my child. The GP listened my words, barely looked at my child and said “I would have to look into my book, establish diagnose, and find what medications I could give to your son”. She didn’t’ make any checks on him and she didn’t know either diagnose or had any medications in mind. And for that “service” I had to pay over 50 Euros. Come on, I could establish diagnose myself with the help of Google and find the right medications there without paying hefty fee. If I pay the money I want to pay it for a special knowledge the doctors suppose to posses and not for her reading a basic medical book. And this is just one of many similar cases experienced by my family. Similar stories I regularly hear from all of my friends.

beeno67

Euroland wrote: »

All public sector salaries should be capped at 100,000 euros per annum. Those who don't like it - get lost and let the others work on such salary.

This is nonsense unless all pay is reduced by a similar percentage. It is purely an election slogan for political parties with no knowledge of economics. It is simply to stir the masses.

"Who should pay for the mess we are in?"
Daft Lefties answer: Someone else:rolleyes:

beeno67

gizmo555 wrote: »

What is the justification for paying consultants here up to three times as much as in England or Sweden? Do we get healthcare that is two to three times better as a result?

They dont earn 2 to 3 times what their UK counterparts earn. A consultant in Ireland earns about €175,000 a year. A UK consultant earns a basic of €120,000 but they then earn extra for meeting targets (most of the targets are easily met). Meeting these targets can add upto €90,000 extra to the basic pay bringing UK consultants pay way above Irish levels to €210,000. Add to this Irish consultants have to pay a 9.5% pension levy that UK consultants do not bringing their equivalent pay to €159,000. So it is the UK consultant that can earn much more than the Irish one.

Euroland

beeno67 wrote: »

This is nonsense unless all pay is reduced by a similar percentage. It is purely an election slogan for political parties with no knowledge of economics. It is simply to stir the masses.

"Who should pay for the mess we are in?"
Daft Lefties answer: Someone else:rolleyes:

Yes, some of those salaries as well have to be adjusted, but in most of the cases not by the same percentage.

PrincessLola

Ah now, in fairness lads Brian Cowen doesn't get the White House:rolleyes:

This is actually hilarious when you consider that the Guardian is a bleeding-heart utter left wing paper :pac:

beeno67

PrincessLola wrote: »

Ah now, in fairness lads Brian Cowen doesn't get the White House:rolleyes:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/opulent-phoenix-park-lodge-is--set-to-become-fortress-cowen-1378987.html

RobbieTheRobber

Euroland wrote: »

You just have to travel more and have experience living in several countries. Believe me, despite reasonably good medical equipment, our GPs/doctors/consultants have poor knowledge relatively to their colleagues in other countries, but charge significantly more. Many of them don’t even deserve 50K Euro salaries. Just one example, about a year ago I went to a local GP with my child. The GP listened my words, barely looked at my child and said “I would have to look into my book, establish diagnose, and find what medications I could give to your son”. She didn’t’ make any checks on him and she didn’t know either diagnose or had any medications in mind. And for that “service” I had to pay over 50 Euros. Come on, I could establish diagnose myself with the help of Google and find the right medications there without paying hefty fee. If I pay the money I want to pay it for a special knowledge the doctors suppose to posses and not for her reading a basic medical book. And this is just one of many similar cases experienced by my family. Similar stories I regularly hear from all of my friends.

I am absolutely sick of this answer "You just have to travel more" I have travalled as i would assume have the people who make up the WHO and they like me deem the irish medical service suitable. The WHO would also be considered the experts in this area, where as you are giving me a sky one type summary based on nothing more than your casual observations.

One bad doctor does not make a bad system, i suggest if you have a problem with that doctor you change!

If you have some verifiable facts to indicate that irish Doctors/nurses are not sufficently trained can you please raise it now!

doc_17

The race to the bottom is never pretty.

femur61

Some friends of mine who both worked in the NHS secured consultant jobs here, to say they were flabbergasted with their pay is an understatement. I have worked as a NHS nurse more efficient system, poorer wages than here, better conditions and better experience in the UK. TBH wages were a huge factor in drawing me here even with all the cut backs still better off than my counterparts in the UK.

RobbieTheRobber

femur61 wrote: »

Some friends of mine who both worked in the NHS secured consultant jobs here, to say they were flabbergasted with their pay is an understatement. I have worked as a NHS nurse more efficient system, poorer wages than here, better conditions and better experience in the UK. TBH wages were a huge factor in drawing me here even with all the cut backs still better off than my counterparts in the UK.

We all know at this stage that esspecially in the HSE costs are out of hand.

What are your feelings about the quality and education of irish health workers?