Magnetic Window Contact with 2 switchs

The Sponge

I need to get a magnetic window/door contact with two separate switchs. One is for the alarm and the other is controling the heating. So obviously there will have to be 4 terminals within the device.

Any ideas where I can pick up a load of these? I'm going to need at least 20.

Thanks

KoolKid

Never seen them. What panel are you using & what exactly are you trying to do?

The Sponge

Not sure what panel is being used yet, either way the panel is irrelevant. I'm just going to need one switch on the contact for the intruder alarm like most panels.

A different cable will also be used to control a heating system which is controlled by a bus system (KNX). This will send a signal (0 Bit value) that will switch off the valve for the rad in that room if the window opens.

Its looking like I'll just have to use 2 separate contacts side by side. Either way if you could point me in the right direction I would really appreciate it!

Thanks

KoolKid

Is this a new system?
If so the panel is relevant. Using a panel like the SigNET you could use a single contact to do both jobs. Using cause & effect you could get different contacts/zones to switch individual outputs.

The Sponge

This is not a new system! This is 2 different systems. The alarm can be bog standard.

There will be one pair coming from the alarm panel. 12v or so

There will be a seperate device (1 fold PBI) 29v connected to a bus line controling the manifold outlet for the rad in that room.

I am looking for a window/door contact that has 2 switchs in it.

The bus system (KNX) is seperate to the alarm system

Thanks again

KoolKid

I have never seen such a thing.
Just trying to offer some alternatives.

The Sponge

I appreciate that, I'm assuming you specialise in alarms, do you know the number of a decent alarm wholesaler?

KoolKid

The Sponge wrote: »

do you know the number of a decent alarm wholesaler?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055956748

DublinDilbert

I know you would like a neat solution, but it's probably best to keep them as separate systems. What happens in two years time when someone comes to fix the alarm, they might mess up the bms system.

If you do want two switches in the same package, get a standard n/o reed contact and add a second reed switch between the spare terminals. You can get miniture reed switches in radionics...

Mike2006

I think I might have what you need with a single set of contacts. You would need to double up on the contacts to make it work the way you want it to.

If you like, PM me your name and address and i will post one of them to you FOC and you can try it out...

I bought about 30 or 40 of these and ended up not using them...

Mike.

KoolKid

Trying to find an easier option for you here.
You say 20 contacts. Does the unit need to identify 1-20 individually or could you have the alarm tell it , say , zone 1 ,2 3, or 4 has opened?

knx

You don't necessarily need two separate contacts. Are you using any logic or facility panels in your system..

The Sponge

Not 100% sure what you mean by logic, I'm still only learning about KNX even though its my specialty but on a big project where everything is done the same.

I am switching a PBI that will be sending a telegram to the KNX panel which is going to switch an actuator that will control a motorized valve. I would like to keep this separate to the alarm. I would like to have the alarm wired in, rather than using the knx logic to switch it. However I think I can see what you mean.

The Alarm Panel is Separate to the KNX panel Just for those who are still not sure what I'm trying to do. That is why I would like to get a magnetic contact with 2 commons and 2 outgoings.

Thanks all for the help.

The Sponge

koolkid wrote: »

Trying to find an easier option for you here.
You say 20 contacts. Does the unit need to identify 1-20 individually or could you have the alarm tell it , say , zone 1 ,2 3, or 4 has opened?

I would not be fully up to speed on alarms, but I think there will be a max of 4 zones but then again I don't know. This is simply my friends house of which is in construction right now. These 20 contacts are for all the windows and doors. I don't know what goes on in the panel. All I know is I'm running 1 alarm cable to each window and door back to where the alarm panel is going. The alarm teci will look after that. There will be a seperate Cat-5 run into the contact controling a PBI (Push Button Interface)

KoolKid

If an open/close pair for each zone of alarm contacts is enough then you could use relays in the panel to get 2 outputs from the same set of contacts.

knx

Ok I'm gonna suggest something similar to koolkid but using knx devices. I would run all my window contacts back to some auxiliary contacts (knx devices). Two 8 gangs and a 4 gang for instance, is gonna be a lot cheaper than twenty 1 gang inputs. Then you can use a regular switch actuator to close the zones on the alarm panel. This also means that any knx presence detectors can be used to trigger the alarm. Not to sure about En 50131 compliance or if you are even bothered about it but I'm sure koolkid can clear that up. You could mount the devices in a box with tamper detection maybe. The more I think about it theres no need for any logic because once the alarm is unset the switch actuator will have no effect.

Hope you understand what I mean..

The Sponge

I understand everything you mean except the auxiliary contacts. Obviously these aux contacts would be extra low voltage. I'm a sparks and I'm use to the mains contactors from when I worked in the industry.

I certainly like the sound of using actuators rather than pbi's. The questions is how would they recieve a 1/0 bit value to open/close the contacts on the actuators.

When I look at the price of those KNX Push-button interfaces and the 8 fold actuators it might be more sensible to do this.

We're gonna need a very large panel for this house!!!! :rolleyes:

knx

I'm sorry what I mean is binary inputs not auxiliary contacts. Din rail version of the push button interface. No voltage is required. You connect both sides of the window contact to the a,b 1,2 or whatever of each channel. So you would be lookin at 2 x 8 gang and 1 x 4 gang binary input. The size of the switch actuator will depend on how many zones you want to have on the alarm.

So you set up group addresses for each heating zone and each alarm zone. In zones where both heating and alarm have to be switched I would set up the alarm switching as normal same as a lighting circuit for example and then use the acknowledgement telegram to switch the heating in that zone. The acknowledgement is basically sending a 1 bit telegram to the bus as well so no problem in using it this way. You just need to make sure that the value you send has the desired effect on the recieving group address. This would be configured in the parameters of both devices. Any zone where you only have to consider either heating or alarm then you can have your binary input channel control only the switching actuator or the heating actuator. When you have your group addresses set up and the appropriate communication objects enabled it will be clear enough what needs to be linked.

Your better off doing it this way if you are using knx anyway. If you ever want to integrate any kind of visualisation or client software you will have much more to play with.

I'm a sparks myself by the way. In my house I have 3 x 96 mod boards in the utility room for circuit protection and switching the electrical loads. An 18 mod in the attic and 12 mod in the cylinder cupboard for heating control. And another 12 mod in the attic for interfacing with the cctv dvr and multiroom setup (my next little project)..So yes you will be needing a large board.

The Sponge

Wow sounds cool, when I'll get time I'll be wiring up my own house to do the same but for the mean time I have to study in my free time. Working full time with an english comapny that specialises with KNX / Dali so my schedule is packed as well as doing all this investigation for a house that isn't even mine :mad:

I'd like to get back to you at some stage later on for some more tips If thats ok?

In the mean time thanks for all your help ( )

knx

No bother pm for my email address..

Dg_

knx wrote: »

In my house I have 3 x 96 mod boards in the utility room for circuit protection and switching the electrical loads. An 18 mod in the attic and 12 mod in the cylinder cupboard for heating control. And another 12 mod in the attic for interfacing with the cctv dvr and multiroom setup (my next little project)..So yes you will be needing a large board.

Whats the running cost of all that equipment or what load is it taking ?

knx

It is a standard 12kva connection. The electrical loads are no bigger than any standard house. The bus system is powered by a 29 volt 640mA power supply but is only drawing about 320mA I reckon because the power supply is oversized.

The large capacity in the panel is because everything has a dedicated circuit with it's own rcbo or mcb. Also every circuit is switched from the panel so there is a bit of equipment in it for that. There are a a couple of empty rails as well for a surge protector and mains conditioner when I come across such devices at sensible money..