'Off-the-road' vehicle tax exemption to be scrapped

Absurdum

THE “OFF-THE-ROAD” vehicle tax exemption is to be scrapped, according to Transport Minister Noel Dempsey.
He claims that the exemption, which allows vehicle owners to avoid back tax on a vehicle if they can sign a declaration in a Garda station that it has been off the road since it was last taxed, is costing the State up to €75m per year.
Mr Dempsey claims that there is “significant evidence” that some owners are fradulently declaring their vehicle was off the road when it wasn’t, reports today’s Irish Times. He said:
The news system means if you have a car, it has to be taxed.
The Irish Road Haulage Association has criticised the scrapping of the exemption, saying that some of their members had vehicles off the road because there was no business for them. The association suggested an alternative tax system in that situation. Hauliers should instead be allowed to buy tax purely for the days it has a vehicle on the road.
http://jrnl.ie/53741

Yet another reason why motor tax should be scrapped and instead put onto the price of fuel.

cloneslad

This is a disgrace, fair enough if some people are taking advantage of it, but many more are taking advantage of social welfare and that's not being done away with, the government still seems to be hanging around and they are costing us more than €75 with their incompetence.


I have my car parked up since the end of feb (taxed until april) cos I am living in Korea, why the hell should I have to pay to tax my car when it's not being used what-so-ever?? The price they stick on fuel is high enough too, as is the cost of my tax €333 for a 1.4??

Sort out those taking advantage and don't go punishing everyone else, is it not enough that we taxpayers are going to be paying for their crap in many other ways for the next god knows how long??

These guys are having a f**kin' laugh!

BronsonTB

What a balls!!!!

For those that genuinely only use a classic car for 6 months a year this is crazy....And I mean classic not vintage(48) tax....so having to pay a full years tax at the full rate for 20+ year old car is just unfair...full stop....

gyppo

Another classic piss-poorly thought out initiative by our resident assholes in state.

I have an '85 merc w123 that i use or 6 months of the year, and tax for 6 months of the year. Thats 477E that I pay to the state.

If they expect 860E instead, well then they can whistle for it, and rather than pay it, I'll either sell the car or break it.

So, thats 477E gone that you would have got from me, Mr Dempsey.

Smart plan alright.

Guy:Incognito

Overreaction and poor journalism imo. There will have to be a system for off the road vehicles. I'd be willing to bet large sums of money there will be a system in place, most likely along the lines of the uk system of declaring it's off the road straight away when it goes off the road.

gyppo

Stekelly wrote: »

Overreaction and poor journalism imo. There will have to be a system for off the road vehicles. I'd be willing to bet large sums of money there will be a system in place, most likely along the lines of the uk system of declaring it's off the road straight away when it goes off the road.

That would be the smart way to do things.

When have the present halfwits done anything smart lately?...........

cloneslad

Stekelly wrote: »

Overreaction and poor journalism imo. There will have to be a system for off the road vehicles. I'd be willing to bet large sums of money there will be a system in place, most likely along the lines of the uk system of declaring it's off the road straight away when it goes off the road.

I went into the tax office before leaving to tell them my car would be off the road from feb 28th or so and that it wouldn't be on the road again until sometime around april/may 2011. They looked at me like I had two heads.....surely they should have something in place to keep track of it.

Yours is a good idea. Cars should be declared off the road straight away, not after a few months when someone decides that they have gotten away without paying for a while and now think they best get it paid for the future months before getting caught.

Guy:Incognito

gyppo wrote: »

That would be the smart way to do things.

When have the present halfwits done anything smart lately?...........

When have posters here thought logically instead of losing the plot based on some journalists half baked opinions on his interpretation of what a minister said....

charlie1966

I would have to agree with Stekelly. There will most likely be a system whereby the owner of an off the road vehicle will have to declare it off the road from the start of that period. This will allow the new Garda camera tech to immediately detect if a vehicle being driven has paid their road tax or not.

Guy:Incognito

cloneslad wrote: »

I went into the tax office before leaving to tell them my car would be off the road from feb 28th or so and that it wouldn't be on the road again until sometime around april/may 2011. They looked at me like I had two heads.....surely they should have something in place to keep track of it.
.

The system as it stands is based on you filling in the form next time you wish to tax it. Thats whats being changed. I guarentee it wont be just done away with with nothing to replace it. There are plenty of reasons acar will be off the road and there will be a system to declare it as such.

As Charlie alluded to above, I dobt it's a coincidence this has come in shortly after ANPR has been fitted to Garda cars. As it is now I'd say the Gards have the camera system flashing like the engine management light on a VW every time they drive down the road only to be met with "but Gard I only just have it back on the road, I have the form ready to go here" . Changing the system will mean any car thats on the road without tax will be immediately braking the law.

Owen

There's going to have to be a SORN declaration like there is in the UK. They should also think about the price of taxing older vehicles. If they gave anything up to 2 litres a break and cut the tax say to 350 a year, they'd probably have a lot more money in the bank, rather than the people out there not able to stomach 600+ in the current climate, and unable to change their car to a smaller one for the same reasons.

Ardennes1944

ugh.

Bumpstop

If it was any other country, I would say yes a reporters over reaction, look at the shambles of nct centres and classic car imports.

But the politicians in charge here who live in their own world, would have got this advise from some half baked lobby group.

Why don't they catch these fraudsters, instead of penalising car enthusiasts and other groups.

Most people who have a summer driver aren't rich they use their skills and time to usually keep two, cheap to buy cars going, and do this despite being hassled by green people who don't understand, and greedy politicians.

After the budget there probably won't be any ordinary people able to be car enthusiasts, so it won't matter.

Rant over, my two cents ! Airfix model, anyone ?

Every car in a forecourt would have to be taxed if that article is correct, lol, retarded.

Absurdum

No mention of any exemption system in the Irish Times which is what the article I posted is based on. Remember, the likes of Noel Dempsey has had his fat arse driven around at our expense for the last 13 years, do you really expect him to do something sensible for motorists?

Guy:Incognito

Absurdum wrote: »

No mention of any exemption system in the Irish Times which is what the article I posted is based on. Remember, the likes of Noel Dempsey has had his fat arse driven around at our expense for the last 13 years, do you really expect him to do something sensible for motorists?

It's not about sensible for motorists or moaning about politicians. A system with no off the road declaration wouldnt work. There will be a system.

gyppo

Stekelly wrote: »

When have posters here thought logically instead of losing the plot based on some journalists half baked opinions on his interpretation of what a minister said....

Please forgive my outburst. The politicians in this country know exactly what they are doing at all times, and the people of this country can rest easy in their beds, secure in this knowledge.

/sarcasm

Of course there needs to be more thought put into this process, and a system similar to that in the uk could work.
However, I would not be confident in the ability of this present government to organise the teddy bears picnic, let alone put a process like the one you mentioned in place.
My money is on some half-arsed scheme being put in place that is half thought-out, and will probably cost more to implement that the amount of revenue it generates. Its happened before, and will happen again.

JimmyCrackCorn

PaintDoctor wrote: »

There's going to have to be a SORN declaration like there is in the UK. They should also think about the price of taxing older vehicles. If they gave anything up to 2 litres a break and cut the tax say to 350 a year, they'd probably have a lot more money in the bank, rather than the people out there not able to stomach 600+ in the current climate, and unable to change their car to a smaller one for the same reasons.

Thats not too bad. I have two cars one thats been off the road now for over 6 months.

Thanks, Panic over

Voodoomelon

As much as I'm against this, most people take the piss with the whole "off the road" loophole.

Granted, there should be some system for legitimately off the road vehicles, i've no idea how you'd implement it, but I'd well believe it costs the state tens of millions of euro.

Owen

Course, we could always go back to the chestnut of 'put the tax into the fuel' which seems to always win praise around here. That way, cars are ALWAYS taxed.

MagicMarker

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Course, we could always go back to the chestnut of 'put the tax into the fuel' which seems to always win praise around here. That way, cars are ALWAYS taxed.

Cars that are being driven are always taxed. If you're not driving then you won't be buying fuel.

Absurdum

MagicMarker wrote: »

Cars that are being driven are always taxed. If you're not driving then you won't be buying fuel.

and you can have a couple of V8s outside the door, take the bus and save the planet

hiscan

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Course, we could always go back to the chestnut of 'put the tax into the fuel' which seems to always win praise around here. That way, cars are ALWAYS taxed.

On the border Counties would it then make it cheaper to buy your fuel in the North?

mistermouse

The Irish Times Article quotes the Minister as saying if you own a car it has to be taxed. I'd imagine they will bring it in and eventually have to have a rethink.

Its rediculious that a car garaged or genuinely off the road should be subject to a no value for money tax thats rather punitive in the first place, this on top of a doubling of Carbon Tax that will come in soon.

Anyone who votes Green party should be banned from driving and the party will hopefully annialated this election along with the inept Fianna Fail.

Owen

There's always flaws, but there's a world of cars out there not taxed at the moment - which means there's also flaws in the current system. I think it's a fairer overall system - those who use the roads more, damage the roads more, pay more tax.

Currently, I know one guy with a 911 who pays 1300 tax. It's an old car, but not old enough for classic tax. He does about 1000 miles a year. Why does he pay that money for his car, when a rep doing 30/40k miles a year in a 318d pays 156 euro a year tax?

-Corkie-

Voodoomelon wrote: »

As much as I'm against this, most people take the piss with the whole "off the road" loophole.

Granted, there should be some system for legitimately off the road vehicles, i've no idea how you'd implement it, but I'd well believe it costs the state tens of millions of euro.

AFAIK 75 million..

Hooch

Voodoomelon wrote: »

As much as I'm against this, most people take the piss with the whole "off the road" loophole.

Granted, there should be some system for legitimately off the road vehicles, i've no idea how you'd implement it, but I'd well believe it costs the state tens of millions of euro.

I've said it before.....there should be a proper system in place.

IE - If your putting your car off the road you must call to a Garda station and sign a declaration. That declaration is forwarded by AGS to Motor tax office and warnings are placed on the cars PULSE profile so that if the owner is using it, ANPR is activated to say "off the road/no tax" or a vehicle check by a Garda flashes a warning. Then to put it back on the road have another declaration signed. Loosing the off the road exemption is going to stop people paying car tax....not encourage it.

Simples.......but then again Ireland isnt that simple!! Another half arsed idea

Max_Damage

Well, if the people in this country had any balls, they would boycott the tax.

I've two cars (the Micra and Escort Mk3), both in storage, and if those clowns think they're going to expect me to cough up money while those cars sit in a garage, they've another thing coming.

Our man in Havana

How the hell are they going to enforce it?

Bumpstop

They would probably enforce it like in England.
If you have a car registered to you, and it's not on record as taxed, or not on SORN. You just get a fine popped through the post.

Our man in Havana

That will be fun esp with all the cars that were unoffically scrapped years ago that are now chicken houses, buried in fields etc.

There will be farmers getting letters about cars from 20 years ago.

galwaytt

nice guy always wrote: »

I've said it before.....there should be a proper system in place.

IE - If your putting your car off the road you must call to a Garda station and sign a declaration. That declaration is forwarded by AGS to Motor tax office and warnings are placed on the cars PULSE profile so that if the owner is using it, ANPR is activated to say "off the road/no tax" or a vehicle check by a Garda flashes a warning. Then to put it back on the road have another declaration signed. Loosing the off the road exemption is going to stop people paying car tax....not encourage it.

Simples.......but then again Ireland isnt that simple!! Another half arsed idea

Sorry, but no, we don't need a system, and you're right about this measure reducing the no's of taxed cars, not increasing them..

Why do i need to tell 'you' - i.e., the system - that it's not taxed ? Doesn't do that already ? If not, what does it do ?

Why should I spend MY time, which is no less valuable than yours btw, queuing up to tell you that I'm NOT going to do something ?
Can I waste your time by telling you I'm NOT going to park on a double-yellow ?

Secondly, inventing ANY kind of SORN system, to either justify, or be justified by, the existence of ANPR is just an exercise in creating work for no benefit. Not to mention the millions wasted in doing so. It is counter-productivity of the highest order.

So, why not a simple system, that is self-administering ? One that, just by dint of there being a car on the road, motoring ahead of you, you know IS taxed ? Gosh - how to do that ? Doh - PUT THE TAX ON THE FUEL. If it's moving, it's taxed. Then you, as GTC, can put your energies into something more akin to actual policing: poor driving, speeding, RTA management, stuff I'd be delighted to see GTC doing, not merely acting a Revenue agent. It would be good for you, and good for us.

Bureauracy for the sake of it is, frankly, bull****.

There's another element: what about all the foreign reg cars/vans/trucks ? They'll still get off scott-free, I suppose. With a fuel tax, they'd have been garnered, too.

Sorry, I have great respect for GTC generally, but not on this one. Sledgehammer to kill a fly - and the issue is not the fly, but the rotting corpse it's on.

Voodoomelon

You should have your own column galwaytt.

Senna

Bumpstop wrote: »

If you have a car registered to you, and it's not on record as taxed, or not on SORN. You just get a fine popped through the post.

I'm sure i have a few cars registered to me but lying in a scrapyard, seen i cant remember the reg's, do i just wait on a fine;)

Bumpstop

No thats just the way it works in England. God knows what system they would dream up here. If indeed any.

CharlieCroker

In an ideal world, I'd have road tax integrated into the price of fuel. As a side effect, this would encourage more people to buy fuel efficient cars while enthusiasts can still buy their V8's if they want.

As for Galways issue with having to go into a garda station, most people I know tax their cars online. Why not just have an option on the website when you log on to declare your car as SORN. Would actually take less effort than putting in your laser card details. Then when you want to put it back on the road, go to the garda station and get the form stamped as happens today.

bladebrew

it is a ridiculous system, i know plenty of people who have completly abused it, ie. tax runs out in april, drive around too lazy to pay the tax then in november get a form signed saying the car was off the road, and save a fortune,

it is rewarding lazy idiots,

Bumpstop

If your driving around England, You will see private contract vans parked here and there, with a large telescopic mast and maybe 6 anpr cameras.

Amongst other things, these are to catch vehicles on SORN being driven on the road.

The actuall difference is they make laws and then enforce them.

Over here we just make laws. Then when they get abused there is a knee jerk reaction, some taxation, and everyone suffers, and usually not the offenders in the first place.

galwaytt

Bumpstop wrote: »

If your driving around England, You will see private contract vans parked here and there, with a large telescopic mast and maybe 6 anpr cameras.

Amongst other things, these are to catch vehicles on SORN being driven on the road.

The actuall difference is they make laws and then enforce them.

Over here we just make laws. Then when they get abused there is a knee jerk reaction, some taxation, and everyone suffers, and usually not the offenders in the first place.

...exactly: so even if we do the 'same' thing: we won't do it well, and it'll all be for nought.......except the unlucky few who get made an example of.

Seweryn

galwaytt wrote: »

Sorry, but no, we don't need a system, and you're right about this measure reducing the no's of taxed cars, not increasing them..

Why do i need to tell 'you' - i.e., the system - that it's not taxed ? Doesn't do that already ? If not, what does it do ?

Why should I spend MY time, which is no less valuable than yours btw, queuing up to tell you that I'm NOT going to do something ?
Can I waste your time by telling you I'm NOT going to park on a double-yellow ?

Secondly, inventing ANY kind of SORN system, to either justify, or be justified by, the existence of ANPR is just an exercise in creating work for no benefit. Not to mention the millions wasted in doing so. It is counter-productivity of the highest order.

So, why not a simple system, that is self-administering ? One that, just by dint of there being a car on the road, motoring ahead of you, you know IS taxed ? Gosh - how to do that ? Doh - PUT THE TAX ON THE FUEL. If it's moving, it's taxed. Then you, as GTC, can put your energies into something more akin to actual policing: poor driving, speeding, RTA management, stuff I'd be delighted to see GTC doing, not merely acting a Revenue agent. It would be good for you, and good for us.

Bureauracy for the sake of it is, frankly, bull****.

There's another element: what about all the foreign reg cars/vans/trucks ? They'll still get off scott-free, I suppose. With a fuel tax, they'd have been garnered, too.

Sorry, I have great respect for GTC generally, but not on this one. Sledgehammer to kill a fly - and the issue is not the fly, but the rotting corpse it's on.

John, I can't agree more. The fuel only taxation system works fine in other countries like France or Poland. People drive what they like (whatever they can afford to put the fuel into) and it is brilliant. Second hand cars are more valuable over there as well.

The only small problem I can see is the electric cars. If there is significant increase of these on our roads I bet you they will do something with your ESB bills ...

tommyhaas

Mr Dempsey claims that there is “significant evidence” that some owners are fradulently declaring their vehicle was off the road when it wasn’t

So for this reason they're scrapping the exemption. Thats like scrapping the social welfare system because there is ''sufficient evidence'' that some are fradulently claimimg it, its bullsh!t

I spend 6mths+ a year at sea, and hence tax the car for the 3mths at a time, and leave it untaxed for the next 3mth. There's not a chance Im paying road tax on a car thats sitting in the drive for that period. The current system could work fine if proper evidence was required before the declaration was signed

Guy:Incognito

tommyhaas wrote: »

So for this reason they're scrapping the exemption. Thats like scrapping the social welfare system because there is ''sufficient evidence'' that some are fradulently claimimg it, its bullsh!t

No, it'd be like scrapping motor tax because people are abusing the system and thats not whats happening.

Seweryn

Bumpstop wrote: »

They would probably enforce it like in England.
If you have a car registered to you, and it's not on record as taxed, or not on SORN. You just get a fine popped through the post.

I believe you can ignore the fine if you sold your car abroad .

ART6

Yes, let's put the motor tax on fuel instead. Fuel that we already pay excise duty on, and then VAT on the net price plus duty. Alternatively let's ask another question. Why the hell should we pay their taxes and stealth taxes on things we already own that were bought with already taxed income?

Oh, I know most other countries do it too, but does that make it right or honest? In my humble view it just shows that politicians in general are just as deceitful and self-serving as are ours. Instead let us have a tax system where there is no such thing as "excise duty" (another stealth tax), no such thing as motor tax or property tax, and all taxes are raised from income tax, corporation tax, and VAT. Then the public would know what their so-called government is really costing them.

I suspect the result would shock people to their core, and that's why no Irish politician would ever consider such a move.

Dord

I don't agree with taxing the fuel. That'd screw over classic car owners and as someone mentioned previously electric cars wouldn't have to pay it.

Our man in Havana

Easy solution would be that electric cars would still have to pay tax.

Voodoomelon

Dord wrote: »

I don't agree with taxing the fuel. That'd screw over classic car owners and as someone mentioned previously electric cars wouldn't have to pay it.

How does that screw classic owners? If you did 1000 miles a year in your classic and assuming you did 20MPG with a 20c per litre hike, you'd only be paying €40-€50 in tax.

Tea drinker

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Why dont they just change the only tax website where you can use your online pin to then SORN your car. Then they have a record of it and if you get caught out on the roads then its your own fault. Wouldn't take a huge amount of effort to do it.

ah but sure, ah but sure ad nauseum
Gettin like an african dictatorship. Gettin MORE like an African distatorship I mean
I spend most of my time out of the country. I now have a choice to burn my car, or the tax office.





joking joking...

Esel

Dord wrote: »

I don't agree with taxing the fuel. That'd screw over classic car owners and as someone mentioned previously electric cars wouldn't have to pay it.

What Voodoomelon said. And let the hair-dryer car owners have something to crow about...

Absurdum

Dord wrote: »

as someone mentioned previously electric cars wouldn't have to pay it.

seeing them on the hard shoulder holding a plug with a forlorn face is enough imo

Backard_Pell

this is a joke, I spend half my time in North America. Makes me want to get an address in Northern Ireland now; by the way, is this the same guy who took the government jet to Derry and had his f**king merc follow him up so as to chauffeur him to some meeting in Donegal, at some huge expense. Too little too late minister, you are all but a voice from the past. By the way, thanks buddy, your f**king party has us the laughing stock of US and half of Europe