Irish people are idiots. Therefore...

Denerick

... Fianna Fáil will win at least 30% of the vote. They achieved around 20% of the vote in the latest by election, and I think this will be their general low point. Irish people are idiots lets not forget. When cute little Patso returns from the Dáil he'll point out 'I stopped them lowering the pension, I brought that extension for the local school' And the locals will lap it all up and vote for FF in significant numbers. Family links, civil war shíte, all of it will come to the fore. We'll hear about how aunti Bessie met De Valera 60,000 years ago and swore never to vote against Fianna Fáil. We'll hear from our neighbours that Fianna Fáil is in their blood, like a bloody football team. We'll have to endure all of this.

Which is why I find it amusing when so many on these boards castigate FF in such strong terms. FF just reflect the darkness at the heart of this mé fein society, which cares only about its little manor in the middle of nowhere. If you're going to criticise FF, you're going to have to criticise their voters, which means taking a long look in the mirror as opposed to constantly finding scapegoats in order for you to abdicate your personal responsibility.

SamSamSammy

lots of people looking for someone to blame for having less money so the government is the obvious target.....can't see them getting back in.

zig

Denerick: This is true, you see the problem with these kind of forums is, people forget there's a whole life and way of thinking outside them so they presume the whole country is going to march to the polling stations and proudly deny their FF TD a hint of a seat. Unforunately this is very much not the case. The system needs to abolished, simple as.

I still don't think theyve a chance of getting in though.

deise go deo

More likely is antuie bessie, The Former Life long FF voter, not voting FF because poor little Jimmy(her Grandson;)) is on the dole and Biffo is the one responciple for it.

thebman

zig wrote: »

Denerick: This is true, you see the problem with these kind of forums is, people forget there's a whole life and way of thinking outside them so they presume the whole country is going to march to the polling stations and proudly deny their FF TD a hint of a seat. Unforunately this is very much not the case. The system needs to abolished, simple as.

I still don't think theyve a chance of getting in though.

Well people can also read opinion polls which suggest that 30% is extremely optimistic for the government given they haven't even introduced the budget yet.

sirromo

... Fianna Fáil will win at least 30% of the vote.

Maybe 30% of Fianna Fail TDs are good people who don't deserve to be blamed for the decisions made by the government?

Bullseye1

If your TD you Vote with your party. Agreed with OP assessment for the most part. It will probably take another 50 years to get away from the civil war politics we are currently in. How many people in this country are independent voters? I suspect they are still in the vast majority.

zig

thebman wrote: »

Well people can also read opinion polls which suggest that 30% is extremely optimistic for the government given they haven't even introduced the budget yet.

True enough I suppose

zig

sirromo wrote: »

Maybe 30% of Fianna Fail TDs are good people who don't deserve to be blamed for the decisions made by the government?

They represent the government, they completely deserved to be blamed. They chose to support the government by being a part of it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Laminations

I wont be lectured to about idiocy from a FF hasbeen. Some Irish people are indeed idiots

Denerick

Laminations wrote: »

I wont be lectured to about idiocy from a FF hasbeen. Some Irish people are indeed idiots

Stop making this case unless you're prepared to offer proof. otherwise you are only substantiating my first post.

Denerick

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The vital difference there is that this was a new candidate. When TDs from FF seek re-election all the clientalism and parochialism will win the day and they will do surprisingly well. I'm wagering that it will be at least 30% nationwide.

Plazaman

I don't thinks Irish people are idiots but certainly they're apathetic. For the last 3 or 4 governments it's the older people who have elected them as young people just don't care or are too lazy to get out and vote. But to be fair, I notice how each successive government like to hold elections midweek specifically so students can't vote in their hometowns. I have worked as a poll clerk at many elections/referendums and it is the Over 50's that are the majority who vote and vote like sheep for the same political party (regardless of performance) because they've always done it and so has their father and their fathers father etc.

There should be a concerted effort from this very day to apply pressure that the next election is on a weekend and that students, young people and people in general are urged to vote and get a decent % turnout. If you don't vote, you've no business commenting on the system.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Denerick

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I know, I've been making the case for years now that this is not an exclusively FF problem, but a political one. Or as I put it a while back 'All politicians pander to idiots. FF are just better at it than others'. The likes of Laminations illustrate very well what is wrong with politics in this country.

Scofflaw

On the other hand, it was also a mid-term by-election for an unpopular government, and one that was only held as a result of the actions taken by Pearse Doherty.

I'd expect that effect to last if the election is soon enough, but I'd also expect people to act slightly differently when the question of who runs the country is what's being voted on.

cordially,
Scofflaw

delonglad

Plazaman wrote: »

I don't thinks Irish people are idiots but certainly they're apathetic. For the last 3 or 4 governments it's the older people who have elected them as young people just don't care or are too lazy to get out and vote. But to be fair, I notice how each successive government like to hold elections midweek specifically so students can't vote in their hometowns. I have worked as a poll clerk at many elections/referendums and it is the Over 50's that are the majority who vote and vote like sheep for the same political party (regardless of performance) because they've always done it and so has their father and their fathers father etc.

There should be a concerted effort from this very day to apply pressure that the next election is on a weekend and that students, young people and people in general are urged to vote and get a decent % turnout. If you don't vote, you've no business commenting on the system.

Students can vote by post at a Garda station as far as I know.

Most young people don't give a fiddlers about voting or the country for that matter anyway. A lot of them who do, just vote for who ever their parents vote for i.e the local pothole filler. I come from a big FF area and to be honest I wouldn't vote for that shower if paid to do so, but I can guarantee most people will. Its sickening to think they are going to vote for them but they will.

My biggest problem and what the current situation has highlighted is the lack of good politicians in this country. I'm fed up looking at the reports and its like kids in a playground arguing over what colour the sky is. Instead of contributing anything all opposing parties just spout the same drivel. I had hope labour or FG would impress me lately but if anything they have gone worse with the ****e their coming out with "our hands are tied". If any of them had any balls they'd stand up and be counted. They don't care about the people they only care about getting into power.

Total political reform is whats needed and needed quick or we'll just be back here in 20 years time giving out about the latest crowd of feckless rogues who have screwed us to help out their cronies in big business.

sirromo

The real idiots are the people who have already made up their minds not to vote for Fianna Fail.

It's not clear at this stage that a Fine Gael/Labour government will do a better job running the country than Fianna Fail would do under a change of leadership.

If the Fianna Fail party has a change of leadership before the next election and if they produce a better manifesto than the other parties then I will vote for them. I would advise other people to do the same.

The stakes are too high for us to turn the next election into anything less than the election of a government that will get us out of the mess we're in. Leave emotion out of it.

fcussen

sirromo wrote: »

It's not clear at this stage that a Fine Gael/Labour government will do a better job running the country than Fianna Fail would do under a change of leadership.

You're right to an extent, but the reason for this is that the next government is going to be constricted by the austerity measures that Fianna Fail's cowboyish economic polices over the last decade has made necessary. If "they're all the same anyway", then ultimately it doesn't matter which one you vote for - but why exactly do you think people belonging to the party that caused the mess should be rewarded with our votes ahead of the people who opposed that party?

meglome

sirromo wrote: »

The real idiots are the people who have already made up their minds not to vote for Fianna Fail.

I must be an idiot, good to know.

sirromo wrote: »

It's not clear at this stage that a Fine Gael/Labour government will do a better job running the country than Fianna Fail would do under a change of leadership.

There are no guarantees but overall I'm liking what FG are saying.

sirromo wrote: »

If the Fianna Fail party has a change of leadership before the next election and if they produce a better manifesto than the other parties then I will vote for them. I would advise other people to do the same.

At some point if a dog bites you enough you've got to deal with it head on, even if that same dog has some good days.

sirromo wrote: »

The stakes are too high for us to turn the next election into anything less than the election of a government that will get us out of the mess we're in. Leave emotion out of it.

I agree and for that to be FF the world would need to turn on it's head.

Pete_Cavan

delonglad wrote: »

My biggest problem and what the current situation has highlighted is the lack of good politicians in this country. I'm fed up looking at the reports and its like kids in a playground arguing over what colour the sky is. Instead of contributing anything all opposing parties just spout the same drivel. I had hope labour or FG would impress me lately but if anything they have gone worse with the ****e their coming out with "our hands are tied". If any of them had any balls they'd stand up and be counted. They don't care about the people they only care about getting into power.

It is that kind of attitude that got FF elected the last time and has led to the current situation. You shouldnt be waiting for FG or Labour to impress you, you read their policies (and those of other parties/independents) and vote for the one whose policies you believe is best for the country and the economy. There is a clear left - right political divide between FG and Labour so you really shouldnt be torn between the two. Swing voters who will vote for either FG or Labour based on who pulls off the best publicity stunt do not deserve a vote imo. Irish people vote for the party who does PR the best (hence mainly FF governments) instead of voting based on policies. Of course this suits most voters because it means they can deny all accountability for the decisions made by the government they voted for, "Well I wouldnt have voted for them if I had known they were going to do that".

We need a proper left right split in Irish politics. Bertie was a joke, claiming to be a socialist and raising social welfare payments and giving the unions everything they wanted while at the same time adjusting the tax system to actively encourage banks and developers to pursue at highest profits possible with little or no regulation. Basically it was both left and right wing policies at the same time, no wonder your economy is a basketcase. It should be one side or the other as chosen by who the people vote for based on policies alone.

Eliot Rosewater

I agree with Denerick, though I don't think FF's vote will be as high as 30%. It's a hard time to be proud of Ireland, really. Looking back on the preceding ten years, we see a significant majority of the country buying into a bubble and voting for politicians who were fighting for fundamentally unsustainable policies. This isn't just about FF voters; the other parties had very poor policies too.

As a result we're now one of the most expensive countries in Europe, and the most bankrupt country, too. The majority of the Irish people wanted what they got, and the choices of the Irish people have now led us here. I don't see how you can be proud of the Irish people with this.

delonglad wrote: »

Most young people don't give a fiddlers about voting or the country for that matter anyway.

Now that fees are a big issue student turnout will increase. They'll be fighting their own corner, of course, and most of them will choose their vote solely based on their own particular interest (getting a service for as little money as possible) at the expense of the country in general, if necessary. UCC Labour Party currently have a poster campaign advertising themselves as "the only main political party in Ireland in opposition to fees". I suppose it's a bit idealistic and naive to expect voters to consider the country as a whole, but you'd at least hope they'd even partially consider others.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

sirromo wrote: »

The real idiots are the people who have already made up their minds not to vote for Fianna Fail.

It's not clear at this stage that a Fine Gael/Labour government will do a better job running the country than Fianna Fail would do under a change of leadership.

If the Fianna Fail party has a change of leadership before the next election and if they produce a better manifesto than the other parties then I will vote for them. I would advise other people to do the same.

The stakes are too high for us to turn the next election into anything less than the election of a government that will get us out of the mess we're in. Leave emotion out of it.

I havent ROFL 'D in a while , but to this , fcuking ROFL :rolleyes:

marglin

sirromo wrote: »

The real idiots are the people who have already made up their minds not to vote for Fianna Fail.

It's not clear at this stage that a Fine Gael/Labour government will do a better job running the country than Fianna Fail would do under a change of leadership.

If the Fianna Fail party has a change of leadership before the next election and if they produce a better manifesto than the other parties then I will vote for them. I would advise other people to do the same.

The stakes are too high for us to turn the next election into anything less than the election of a government that will get us out of the mess we're in. Leave emotion out of it.

sweet jesus what is wrong with you?

parliamenteray democracy with all its imperfections essentially works like thus:
pick a set of eejits to run the country, ensure they dont actually have to do much by instilling economic and personal freedoms so that hopefully things tick over nicely by themselves

if something goes wrong and its the govt's fault, which in this case it clearly is(especially the complete mismanagement of the crisis), at the next election you pick a different set of eejits to have a go.

so why would anyone in their right mind even consider voting for the same brain surgeons who not only killed the patient but tried to blame the nurse?

sadly I know there is alot of people, as the OP said, who will regardless vote for the party 'they've always voted for' makes me so mad:mad:

Idbatterim

If we are talking about being populist and short term policies, then Labor will be perfect to fit in for FF!

Idbatterim

I will be voting for the party that is going to go after the PS the most, if that is FF, they will get my vote!

Anonymous1987

I don't see anything particularly advantageous about a left right divide, if anything it encourages empty rhetoric from both sides.

Where I do see a possible avenue for reform is maybe a bi-cameral legislature whereby the Seanad is elected by the people as the chamber for national representatives and the Dail is the chamber for local representatives (or the other way round not that it makes a difference) with checks and balances to ensure neither local nor national issues dominate. What do people here think about this, advantages, disadvantages?

Amhran Nua

Denerick wrote: »

... Fianna Fáil will win at least 30% of the vote. They achieved around 20% of the vote in the latest by election, and I think this will be their general low point. Irish people are idiots lets not forget.

Not this rubbish again. Rather than slandering four million people, maybe a better idea might be to learn about the situation and therefore work out how to rectify it.

The Single Transferable Vote allows people to vote for individual TDs rather than parties and their policies, so people are usually going to vote for the TD who did them, personally, the most favours. 99% of other countries with proportional representation use the party list system, we got saddled with De Valera's comely maidens nation of villages vision, which has got to go.

I was having a cup of tea with a few others from the residents' association the last day, and it transpired that the local Labour rep (who helped us with a few potholes) is running for TD, cue general murmurs that we should give her the vote.

Labour has no national policies.

That's how it works.

It is fixable however. People complain about the party list system by saying that its party hack number 47 who will stand for them in the Dáil rather than a local representative - thats the point! National representatives need to deal with national issues and not be haring off to funerals and doing talk spots on local radio about whatever just to keep their seats. Let parties reward party supporters so long as the party policies are doing well for the country, and let people reward parties with the best strategies. We need to mildly strengthen the local authorities on the other hand to prevent neglect, mind you, but not by much.

So remember folks, next time you feel like starting a thread dripping with vitriol about an entire country, Think Before You Post.

Amhran Nua

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

Where I do see a possible avenue for reform is maybe a bi-cameral legislature whereby the Seanad is elected by the people as the chamber for national representatives and the Dail is the chamber for local representatives (or the other way round not that it makes a difference) with checks and balances to ensure neither local nor national issues dominate. What do people here think about this, advantages, disadvantages?

Its good but the devil is in the details. We as a nation need more unity, so I'd make the local interests of less weight than the national interest, while ensuring that local interests have a viable input, which is possibly where the Seanad comes in. I don't know if its ideal of university graduates has anything to do with that however, it would need to be completely restructured.

Liam Byrne

Denerick wrote: »

If you're going to criticise FF, you're going to have to criticise their voters, which means taking a long look in the mirror as opposed to constantly finding scapegoats in order for you to abdicate your personal responsibility.

That makes no sense. The person in my mirror didn't vote FF.

Liam Byrne

sirromo wrote: »

The real idiots are the people who have already made up their minds not to vote for Fianna Fail.

Thanks for calling me an "idiot"; I'd report the post for personal abuse were it not for the fact that I have absolutely no idea how evaluating an abysmal track record and repeating my previous voting pattern by not voting for that shower somehow makes me an "idiot", and therefore the statement is laughable more than objectionable.

Was I an "idiot" last time out too ? Oh - hang on.....that wouldn't have been me since I voted against the shower that landed us in this mess.

Bus driver crashes bus while speeding and driving dangerously and is fired for not being able to do his job.

Shareholders in bus company have two choices; hire the same incompetent idiot or hire someone new and hope that they are better, even though they won't know until after they hire them.

Wolfe Tone

Liam, didnt you vote for the greens? Perhaps I have you confused with someone else.

Denerick

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Not this rubbish again. Rather than slandering four million people, maybe a better idea might be to learn about the situation and therefore work out how to rectify it.

The Single Transferable Vote allows people to vote for individual TDs rather than parties and their policies, so people are usually going to vote for the TD who did them, personally, the most favours. 99% of other countries with proportional representation use the party list system, we got saddled with De Valera's comely maidens nation of villages vision, which has got to go.

I was having a cup of tea with a few others from the residents' association the last day, and it transpired that the local Labour rep (who helped us with a few potholes) is running for TD, cue general murmurs that we should give her the vote.

Labour has no national policies.

That's how it works.

It is fixable however. People complain about the party list system by saying that its party hack number 47 who will stand for them in the Dáil rather than a local representative - thats the point! National representatives need to deal with national issues and not be haring off to funerals and doing talk spots on local radio about whatever just to keep their seats. Let parties reward party supporters so long as the party policies are doing well for the country, and let people reward parties with the best strategies. We need to mildly strengthen the local authorities on the other hand to prevent neglect, mind you, but not by much.

So remember folks, next time you feel like starting a thread dripping with vitriol about an entire country, Think Before You Post.

I had to laugh at the sense of self importance inherent your post. Especially the flourish at the end 'think before you post'. What you are essentially proposing is a party dictatorship with no meaningful link with constituencies. There are very few parliamentary democracies in the world were voters do not have a direct say in the election of their representatives. We elect TDs first and foremost to represent our interests (Hence the term 'representative', which is proportional to the population) Each region, divided along population lines has a proportionate number of representatives in the national parliament. This is how it is and should be. What you are suggesting is quite authoritarian and unpalatable 'when you think about it'. Don't lecture others about thought, sonny.

A party list system may be a good idea, but don't delude yourself with the thought that if you abolish constituencies you'll somehow create political virtue in this country. What is so different from a local hack, sliming his way through to politics at a local level - and a party hack, sliming his way through to politics at a national level? At least the local hack has more direct accountability.

Kiki10

The only idiots are the people who don't vote. What I think causes most young people not to vote is the registration system. If we had a postal ballot for young people at school or training. Its true its mostly coffin doges who have no political opinion vote religiously, while student will protest, roar & shout and then not even bother to register to vote?

Wolfe Tone

The reasons people my age dont vote is because they are not arsed and don't have a clue about what is going on.

Liam Byrne

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Liam, didnt you vote for the greens? Perhaps I have you confused with someone else.

What's your point ? I didn't vote for anyone with an abysmal track record last time, and I won't do so this time, either. The Greens had no dodgy track record up to the election, and I voted for them based on the [mistaken] belief that they had ruled out coalition with FF.

They pulled a fast one / I was mistaken / combination of the two, and have since created their own dismal record and abandoned their "polluter pays" principle, which I supported 100%.

So The Greens will be joining FF as a non-option-for-obvious-reasons this time.

So I don't know what your point is.

Amhran Nua

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Liam, didnt you vote for the greens? Perhaps I have you confused with someone else.

How could he have voted for the greens, there is no option to vote for parties in Ireland.

Denerick wrote: »

What you are essentially proposing is a party dictatorship with no meaningful link with constituencies.

How could it be a dictatorship when people vote for their preferred option.

Denerick wrote: »

A party list system may be a good idea, but don't delude yourself with the thought that if you abolish constituencies you'll somehow create political virtue in this country.

Okay, I've already dealt with most of the issues you raise in the previous post, and Ive no intention of dealing with the rhetorical bombast, but its important to keep in mind that this is not a panacea. It will likely take several elections for the effects of the new system to filter through in any case. It is a major step towards resolving much of the voting behaviour in this country though.

In a system where you vote for the politician rather than the party, is it any wonder that Labour have effectively no published policies, and the national leadership is clearly falling apart? Is it any wonder that Cowen wandered out of IMF negotiations to go canvassing in Donegal, is it any wonder that the TD who introduced free university education promptly lost her seat while villains and shady characters get continually re-elected, and the likes of Jackie Healy-Rae can hold the nation to ransom?

The STV has to go.

There are also numerous variations on the party list system, open and closed. While you might be opposed to the idea, take a look at the number of countries using PR and the List system rather than STV.

Kiki10

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

The reasons people my age dont vote is because they are not arsed and don't have a clue about what is going on.

Not having a clue whats going on is everyones problem right now, thats not your fault we have a government with there government appointed civil service wrapping whats going on in red tape, so we wont understand it.

Nobody is arsed really but when you pay for a few bad budgets it shakes the laziness out if you! If I offered you €100 to vote you would, but when a crap government charge you an extra €1000 a year to study... you know where I'm going with this...

Panrich

To engage the youth, maybe we get RTE to run an X factor type show instead of the polling day 'drag' of having to get up off our arses to vote. A politician could be voted off every week (by text of course).

delonglad

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It is that kind of attitude that got FF elected the last time and has led to the current situation. You shouldnt be waiting for FG or Labour to impress you, you read their policies (and those of other parties/independents) and vote for the one whose policies you believe is best for the country and the economy. There is a clear left - right political divide between FG and Labour so you really shouldnt be torn between the two. Swing voters who will vote for either FG or Labour based on who pulls off the best publicity stunt do not deserve a vote imo. Irish people vote for the party who does PR the best (hence mainly FF governments) instead of voting based on policies. Of course this suits most voters because it means they can deny all accountability for the decisions made by the government they voted for, "Well I wouldnt have voted for them if I had known they were going to do that".

We need a proper left right split in Irish politics. Bertie was a joke, claiming to be a socialist and raising social welfare payments and giving the unions everything they wanted while at the same time adjusting the tax system to actively encourage banks and developers to pursue at highest profits possible with little or no regulation. Basically it was both left and right wing policies at the same time, no wonder your economy is a basketcase. It should be one side or the other as chosen by who the people vote for based on policies alone.

Sorry if my post confused you but I have no plan of ever voting FF, never have and never will even my discontent at FG and Labour will not make me consider them, i'll prob vote for an independent again. My post is about highlighting the lack of good politicians who are about standing up behind their values and policies, not just creating a nice piece of paper that will get them votes but they don't truly believe in it. I firmly believe any party in govt would have ****ed things up because their all the same, its not about the people its about power.

System needs to be reformed but it will not happen because the next govt will have "their hands tied" and thats all we'll here.

Plus its Ireland, "ah sure it will be alright lads, it'll sort itself out, FF aren't that bad, they did get Mary and Pa the grant that time" hence the ops thread.

CoalBucket

Denerick wrote: »

... Fianna Fáil will win at least 30% of the vote. They achieved around 20% of the vote in the latest by election, and I think this will be their general low point. Irish people are idiots lets not forget.

First of all I agree with the underlying arguement. But there are a number of points I take issue with.

The donegal by-election is hardly a fair reflection on public opinion or voting patterns as it is a Fianna Fail stronghold. However I do agree that that is a very worrying concept of people voting for FF through blind loyalty but if there ever was a time that even staunch FFers took a look at themselves it is now.

Denerick wrote: »

Which is why I find it amusing when so many on these boards castigate FF in such strong terms. FF just reflect the darkness at the heart of this mé fein society, which cares only about its little manor in the middle of nowhere. If you're going to criticise FF, you're going to have to criticise their voters, which means taking a long look in the mirror as opposed to constantly finding scapegoats in order for you to abdicate your personal responsibility.

With reference to boardsies castigating FF. Contributers to boards of whatever political persuasion tend to be politically aware. I for one have no issue with criticising FF or their voters. It is also important to point out that FF received approximately 40% of the vote at the last election. By that alone 60% of the people have no "personal responsibility"

When it comes to looking in the mirror and taking personal responsibility I have no qualms. I have not and will never vote FF.

Denerick

40% voted for FF. The other 60% (With the exception of Shinners and a few eccentric independents) voted for parties in favour of cutting taxes and raising spending.

I simply cannot understand how so few people seem to remember the 2007 election. Its one of the reasons why I'm giving a protest vote to the Shinners, dogs that they are.

CoalBucket

Denerick wrote: »

40% voted for FF. The other 60% (With the exception of Shinners and a few eccentric independents) voted for parties in favour of cutting taxes and raising spending.

I simply cannot understand how so few people seem to remember the 2007 election. Its one of the reasons why I'm giving a protest vote to the Shinners, dogs that they are.

So just let me get this straight. If you vote for any other party other than SF you are an idiot ?

Amhran Nua

Denerick wrote: »

40% voted for FF. The other 60% (With the exception of Shinners and a few eccentric independents) voted for parties in favour of cutting taxes and raising spending.

I simply cannot understand how so few people seem to remember the 2007 election. Its one of the reasons why I'm giving a protest vote to the Shinners, dogs that they are.

Could you scan in and post up the ballot sheet that allows you to vote for Sinn Féin rather than FF or any other party, because I've never seen one. I've seen plenty that allow me to vote for local candidates who may or may not be aligned with the various parties mind you.

CoalBucket

Btw I remember the 07 election clearly and the figures released by the government misled the people and the opposition parties into believing that the countries finances were in order. The only parties privvy to the actual state of the public finances were FF and the PDs.

Denerick

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Could you scan in and post up the ballot sheet that allows you to vote for Sinn Féin rather than FF or any other party, because I've never seen one. I've seen plenty that allow me to vote for local candidates who may or may not be aligned with the various parties mind you.

What country are you imagining? Are you suggesting that Americans vote for their party as opposed to their representative in elections? Did the people of California vote for the Democratic Party or Barack Obama as President in 2008? Your points are completely irrelevant, they have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. We do not vote for faceless organisations, we vote for personalities who may or may not be members of a political party that will persue a coherent ideological series of ideas.

Denerick

CoalBucket wrote: »

So just let me get this straight. If you vote for any other party other than SF you are an idiot ?

You are only an idiot if you choose the path of collective amnesia we've seen in this country in recent years. Unfortunately far too many have.

Eliot Rosewater

I think the PR-STV system is becoming a scapegoat for the general lack of ability of the electorate in choosing representatives. I accept that PR-STV results in local issues being focused upon, but the fact that the electorate don't see through this and realise that Dail Eireann is the national parliament of Ireland and thus needs national representatives is only a confirmation of that lack of ability.

Amhran Nua are pinning all their hopes on electoral reform. Of course reform would be welcome, but it's not going to result in the utopia of informed voters that AN seem to think it will. The poor voter mentality will continue. People will still predominately vote for the party that offers the biggest basket of freebies.

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

Where I do see a possible avenue for reform is maybe a bi-cameral legislature whereby the Seanad is elected by the people as the chamber for national representatives and the Dail is the chamber for local representatives

One has to ask, why are local issues being considered in a national parliament? Beef up the country councils, I say, and leave the Oireachtas to run the nation as a whole.

Amhran Nua

Denerick wrote: »

What country are you imagining? Are you suggesting that Americans vote for their party as opposed to their representative in elections?

Eh, pretty much.

Denerick wrote: »

Your points are completely irrelevant, they have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

And what a discussion it is. "Irish people are idiots." If someone started a thread called "English people are idiots" or "African people are idiots" how long would it take for the lock and ban combo to kick in, I wonder.

Eliot Rosewater

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And what a discussion it is. "Irish people are idiots." If someone started a thread called "English people are idiots" or "African people are idiots" how long would it take for the lock and ban combo to kick in, I wonder.

That's because such a discussion would be based on the premise that English people are bad because of 800 YEARS, or that Africans are bad because they were colonised.

Denerick, however, is making a legitimate criticism of the majority of the Irish people based on their terrible choices of government in the past decade.