Is there money to be made in building and selling custom guitars?

strobe

Hey, odd sort of question. Would there be any money to be made out of designing, building and selling electric guitars? I'm a qualified electronic engineer and have a decent skill for woodwork, so I'm fairly confident I could start from complete scratch and custom build a guitar to pretty much any specs, main circuitry, pick-ups, body, neck etc without any problems, everything apart from strings really but that's obviously not a major problem.

I plan to get designing and building one for myself within the next couple of weeks regardless but was just wondering if there is a market for this kind of thing? If there is, is it big enough to turn any kind of decent profit or is it more of a niche hobby thing?

Anyone hand make electric guitars for sale, or know anyone that does? Had a google and found a few people doing it, even a few in Ireland but no indication of whether or not they are making any kind of money out of it.

Is it just a case that everyone buys Fender, Gibson, Ibanez etc and there are only a handful (if that) of people around that would even want a custom guitar from some dude they never heard of?

Squidgy Black

It literally depends on whether your guitars are good enough or not.
Nobody's gonna buy a custom made guitar if it's not as good as a gibson or a fender.

Demeyes

There is a market for custom guitars but you need to have a few things going first. You'll need to build a good few guitars and actually get good at making them, you'll be judged by your reputation so you need quality product and the more experience you have with building the better you'll be.
Also from what I have seen, a lot guys have a certain niche they cater for. Vintage style guitars, modern takes on old styles, shred machines or all new designs. It's better to be pretty good at certain stuff than being ok at a lot, there are a tone of options when it comes to the build side of a guitar and peoples requests will vary a nice bit.
Other than the guitar making side of things, I've seen a few luthiers do themselves no favours online by mucking up the business side of things. You'll need to be aware of what guitar designs you can copy and what names or build techniques you'll be allowed to recreate and sell.
Don't make poor quality stuff and send it out, with the net your reputation can be tarnished easily by bad products and situations poorly handled. Mistakes happen but people aren't happy with poor communication or info from a maker. Having a good head for numbers will help you know how to price and spec your guitars and make some profit.

I think it would take a while for business to pick up but if you make great instruments and work hard at getting your name out there then people will start looking to you to make what their stuff. It would be ages before you'd be able to start making any good money from it, but you should be able to get a few quid if you make good stuff. There is plenty of demand internationally for well made customs.
If you're not familiar with the following sites then you should look them up, they show lots of builds and mods. http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/ http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/luthiery-modifications-and-customizations/

damonjewel

I think the main problem for this type of thing is getting your product out there and getting it acknowledged as a quality product. If you could get a guitar mag to review your gear or get a celebrity endorsement it could help with marketing your product.

I think a problem for me would be resale of a guitar. E.g. you build a guitar for me to my own taste and design, however after a while I hit hard times and need to sell it on, without the recognised brand I could be taking a major hit on the value.

I really admire your ambition here but every aspect of it would really need to be top notch (Finish, setup, electronics, tuners etc) and keeping control of quality could be a real challenge.

Seeing that your a electronics engineer I would look at other areas that could be exploited and easier for you to break into. I had noticed that boutique pick ups could be one, and take on the likes of lollar, bare knuckle, vintage vibe etc. I have also noticed that pre-wired pickguards are extremely expensive and I think this is certainly an area to move into. If you are good at circuitry then preamps and onboard gadgetry might be the thing.

Best of luck with it

Seziertisch

I would say you should maybe also check out amp building. Guitar amp circuits are generally not too complicated, in my experience a lot of guitar pedals have more parts and are nearly a more complicated build.

FruscianteFan

As a builder myself I wouldnt start making guitars to sell for the money as there is none to be had. If you look around on the internet you will see that a lot of custom guitar builders are retired and doing it as a hobby or else they are doing it alongside other jobs they have. I know a few builders around the world and I dont know one that is making a comfortable living from it, especially in Ireland. In America it is easier to make money as there is a larger market. But still a lot of the builder there are retired and are doing it as a hobby. Take for exampe Ron Kirn, some here might know him but he is retired and is doing it as a hobby. He is an excellent builder and makes some fantastic guitars but if you asked him was there money to be had Im sure he would say no. Another example is Gil Yaron who is based in Israel, in my opinion he is THE best guitar builder in the world. His attention to detail in amazing. He makes exact repros of vintage guitars, completely puts the Fender Custom Shop and Gibson to shame. He does everything himself down to the very last detail, making sure all his guitars and parts have the exact same tooling marks as the originals. But his guitars run for over $25,000.

You also need to invest quite a bit in getting machinery and tools for guitars. You can go down the road of getting the cheaper routers etc. like I did when I first started but you will soon find out thats its a complete waste of money. My first router cost me €150 and after doing a small bit or routing it split down the middle so I had to fork out again for a proper router. Then you will need a drill press, bandsaw, jonter, planer etc. You can make a guitar without them but it will take a lot longer and if you are trying to make money you will need a fast turn around. I would say it takes about 60 hours to make a guitar depending on spec etc. but about that! There is a lot more to it than many people think. Its not as simple as just going off and making a guitar. I did about a years research before going near any wood. And Im still doing it now, looking at different methods to find what is the best way to make the best guitar. Many tools needed to make guitars are very expensive specialist tools such as nut files etc. They are about $13 each and you will need 6 but thats only for one guage string, what if one customer was 8s and another wants 12s theres a big enough difference and if you dont use the right file the chances of buzzing and tuning problems are bigger.

Then you have to consider finish options. Many people only want Nitrocellulose because its what Fender and Gibson use, Im not saying its a good or bad finish but its considered the 'standard' for a good guitar. Here in Ireland Nitro is VERY hard to source as there are EU laws against it and you have to have a proper booth with proper ventillation to use it. It also has to be bought in very large quantities, I was told a few years ago that and order or 400 litres had to be placed, which is more than you will ever need, and you will need to store it. In America it can be bought off the shelf or a lot of websites but it cant be shipped here as it is flammable and to get it over by sea would cost way more that the actual nitro.

It literally depends on whether your guitars are good enough or not.
Nobody's gonna buy a custom made guitar if it's not as good as a gibson or a fender

.
In my experience thats not the case. How many people when they see a guitar look straight at the headstock to see what brand it is. If its not a Fender or Gibson they look away. Im not saying they are not good guitars but there is a certain snobbery when it some to them. We have all done it!
Im sure there are people here who wouldnt get a custom builder to make them a guitar as they would rather a Gibson or Fender. Mamy custom guitar builders make guitars of a much higer quality than Fender or Gibson but still that doesnt mean that everyone is going to buy their guitars!

There is plenty of demand internationally for well made customs.

But there are also plenty of peole doing it! For example I made a telecaster deluxe for myself and put high quality parts in it, exactly what I wanted. It cost about €650 for the parts, not including any labour for me. Whats a fair price to sell that at? Would you buy a guitar off a small builder like myself for say €1000 or even €800? Even at that I would get about €2.50 per hour (if it was €800) or €5.80 (If it was €1000). Thats less than the under 18 minium wage. Now take into the account the few thousand you have had to spend of buying equipment and tools and the 'practice' guitars you have had to make. Plus renting somewhere to work or buying a shed or whatever. Then take into account that in cold weather, like we are having know you cant work unless you heat you shed (which will cost more), its not because you will be cold or anything but some powertools wont run safely below 5 degrees. As you will have problems with metal expanding and condenation etc. So if you have a cold winter you cant work and cant make money.

Also a lot of time is taken up replying to emails and talking designs and specs with people. I havent really started getting my name out there yet as I am busy with my studies for the next couple of months but even so I spend a good while discussing builds. You could talk for ages with someone and they could just be about to place an order and they lose their job and cant place an order. That means for all the time you have been talking to them you have earned nothing. For me I dont mind as Im not in it for the money. I enjoy talking to customers and seeing what they want in their dream guitar and seeing someone pickup a guitar you made for them is great. Its amazing how excited a fully grown man can get when you tell them all the possibilities for their guitars!

Then there is copyright that you have to be careful. Big companies will lose their copyright on shapes and designs etc. if they arent seen to fight for them. As is the case with Fender body shapes, but copy their headstock and you could be hit! They like to make examples of small builders to show all other small builders that they could be next! They can take all guitars you have made, even if a customer has them and sue you for whatever they want. And I doubt many could afford a lawyer to take on the team of lawyers that Gibson and Fender has. I have used their headstock design on one of my guitars but that is for personal use. If I ever want to sell it I will have to change it. I know a few builders and he got a strongly worded email from Fender saying if they didnt change the headstock shapes they would be liable. And that is considered getting off lightly.

You were saying you were going to make custom designs but there is even a smaller market for them. You may think it brilliant but everyone else might hate it. And if I was buying a custom design guitar I would want to see the final product before I buy it and if I didnt like it then you might not be able to sell it on!

So I would not reccomend you going into building for the money as it will takes years to ever make money off it, if you get that lucky.

I agree with the others, you should really check out amp and pedal building! As far as i am aware there is nobody in Ireland doing it on a professional big scale. I would say there would be a lot of people happier to give their amp to someone with a degree in electronics to fix than to some random guy who thinks he knows what hes talking about! I would also suggest you get into guitar wiring. There have been a good few people who when they hear I make guitars they ask about Matt Belamys guitar. I reckon if you were able to wire kaoss pads and the likes you would do well as I dont think there would be many able to do it. If you could do custom wiring jobs it would be great. I wouldnt be able to wire a Matt belamy guitar without doing a lot of research as I know nothing about them so if there was someone that could, I would be more than happy to have them do it rather than me.

But the one thing you have to do is that if someone asks you to do something and you dont think you could do it dont 'just try it' and risk wrecking a guitar just tell them to go to X as they have experience in doing that. Like for example If some one asked me to do a Matt Belamy guitar I would do everything but the wiring as I think there are people who know more about it that could do it better!

Im not trying to put you off the idea but Im trying to get you to see the bigger picture. Im not in guitar building for the money so as long as I can break even on parts and have a small bit to put away for tools, new cutters, blades etc. Im happy.

strobe

FruscianteFan wrote: »

As a builder myself [......] new cutters, blades etc. Im happy.

Cheers for taking the time for the detailed reply FF (and thanks to the others) that's pretty much what I figured, that it would be more of a hobby for people unless they happen to get astronomically lucky. My primary interest in getting into it is mainly just because I think I would really enjoy it, just figured if there was a few quid to make at the same time, all the better. I'm lucky enough that I have a workspace and good quality carpentry tools and my ****ty engineering tools from college already.

I never even considered the possibilities that could be there for the amp and pedal side of things for some reason, definitely something I'll think about. If for nothing else then to be able to sit and play my own hand built guitar through my own hand built wah and amp, how cool would that sh1t be?

Have you got a website or anything for your own work man? Wouldn't mind checking out some of your own stuff.

Zombienosh

I'd be all for buying and using custom guitars , (I've been playing 15+ years, play in bands all the time , all that usual....) Most of the time the only custom guitars that get promoted or I can find... are either A) poor imitations of the usual (strats,LP's) and in no way actually custom, or then far too expensive to gain any customers..

Owen

I'm handy enough with woodwork too, and very handy on the electronics side of things, and I've been setting up guitars for myself and friends for years. If you could OP, getting into the electronic side of things is no bad way forward, especially with some of the more high tech guitars on the market recently. I installed a Sustainiac into my Jem recently which had more wires and boards than I care to remeber, another Ibanez of mine has had a Variax transplant which took me a full 2 days to fault find after it was done, and Gibson's new Robot Guitar Tech would be ripe for a transplant into something else.

There's always a niche for this stuff, but you have to ask is there a market. I do painting of guitars the odd time too, and I'm always happy with the result and think 'This would be cool to do for a living', and then I remember that while it's cool, and fresh, you couldn't pay the bills from it.

FruscianteFan

Have you got a website or anything for your own work man? Wouldn't mind checking out some of your own stuff.

Dont have a website at the minute. But I will in the next couple of months. I have some of my stuff up here though. Heres a few links!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055995358

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055881178

Im also about to put up a thread of a few things I have been doing recently, just pictures and stuff!

I'd be all for buying and using custom guitars , (I've been playing 15+ years, play in bands all the time , all that usual....) Most of the time the only custom guitars that get promoted or I can find... are either A) poor imitations of the usual (strats,LP's) and in no way actually custom, or then far too expensive to gain any customers..

I know what you mean but the thing is that most people want the usual Strats or Les Pauls but with their own twist. Personally I wouldnt mind doing a custom guitar for someone but I would only build it to order. If I made one and was selling it at a fair price that doesnt mean anyone will buy it. I could think it looks brilliant but everyone else could think it looks like crap. Most people build Telecasters, Stratocasters and Les Pauls because pretty much everyone likes at least one of them so they will sell. I make my guitars purely because I love doing it. Im not in it for profit or anything but if I made a custom design guitar and then couldnt sell it it would cost me and I have enough guitars as it is! I also agree with you that a lot of custom made guitars are far too expensive. Even looking at custom shop Fender's and Gibson's they are charging WAY too much for them. They may be great guitars but more often that not they are not really worth it, in my opinion. Even some production line guitars are unbelievable prices and they are just completely done by machine with no attention to detail. But there are also some guitars out there that are worth the amount they cost but its all really a matter of opinion!

'This would be cool to do for a living', and then I remember that while it's cool, and fresh, you couldn't pay the bills from it.

Sums up the thread right in that post!!

Zombienosh

FruscianteFan wrote: »

I know what you mean but the thing is that most people want the usual Strats or Les Pauls but with their own twist. Personally I wouldnt mind doing a custom guitar for someone but I would only build it to order. If I made one and was selling it at a fair price that doesnt mean anyone will buy it. I could think it looks brilliant but everyone else could think it looks like crap. Most people build Telecasters, Stratocasters and Les Pauls because pretty much everyone likes at least one of them so they will sell. I make my guitars purely because I love doing it. Im not in it for profit or anything but if I made a custom design guitar and then couldnt sell it it would cost me and I have enough guitars as it is! I also agree with you that a lot of custom made guitars are far too expensive. Even looking at custom shop Fender's and Gibson's they are charging WAY too much for them. They may be great guitars but more often that not they are not really worth it, in my opinion. Even some production line guitars are unbelievable prices and they are just completely done by machine with no attention to detail. But there are also some guitars out there that are worth the amount they cost but its all really a matter of opinion!

Making ST's, or LP's with a twist is grand, but I've seen a lot people copy fender and gibson to a T.

RC88

would love to start seeing some really affordable customs for a change is at all possible mate, if you were to make a great sounding guitar(orignal design) for around €400-€800, i might just take a pop myself, always on the look out for a bargain custom
i understand a lot of work goes into them but some custom guitars don't justify their prices
as for a career choice, would'nt advise it, maybe as a side job or hobby, not many people willing to pony up the dough

dfkorg

RC88 wrote: »

would love to start seeing some really affordable customs for a change is at all possible mate, if you were to make a great sounding guitar(orignal design) for around €400-€800, i might just take a pop myself, always on the look out for a bargain custom
i understand a lot of work goes into them but some custom guitars don't justify their prices
as for a career choice, would'nt advise it, maybe as a side job or hobby, not many people willing to pony up the dough

With the cost of bringing in parts to make the instrument, let alone the time spent sourcing woods and making necks and bodies, it is uneconomical to sell these instruments for that kind of money.

OP, it might be worth contacting Patrick Eggle or Gordon Smith in the UK. These are two fine luthiers who, for whatever reason (maybe being in the UK as opposed to the US), don't get credit for the fine instruments they make. They may offer some advice, or tell you where to go. Both make excellent instruments without the astronomical price tag that goes with some guitars coming out of the states.

The most encouraging thing I can say is to quote another icon of British guitar making, Trev Wilkinson: "Fender have about 20% of the market, there's still 80% of it up for grabs"

If it wasn't for people trying to break the mould we'd have no Lowden, PRS, Taylor, Breedlove, Dean, Patrick Eggle etc.

BostonB

If there was money in it, loads of people would be doing it. And there isn't.

So find out why people don't do it.

fuzztone

strobe wrote: »

Is it just a case that everyone buys Fender, Gibson, Ibanez etc and there are only a handful (if that) of people around that would even want a custom guitar from some dude they never heard of?

TBH if I were going to get into the custom guitar business I'd focus more on the niche side of things (long scales, short scales, multiscale, 7-8-9 strings). There seems to be a few luthiers appearing selling these types of guitars at cheap prices and doing alright from it. For example Roter will build this for under a grand:



And today while browsing the net for a short scale bass I came across an English luthier who is selling me this custom hand made short scale bass for 40 euro more than it would cost me to buy a Squier Bronco bass:

Owen

Could you give me the details of that Luthier?

fuzztone

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Could you give me the details of that Luthier?

His name is Paul Rose

prosebass.com

There are some good reviews of his work online.

Owen

Pity his site doesn't show much, or prices. How did you get information from him?

fuzztone

I sent him an email asking if he had any basses in stock and he got back to me pretty promptly. He is clearing out some concept basses like the one I bought to make room in his shop, mine was only 200 quid. He will be taking custom orders at the end of January, prices will be around 400-500 and require a 50% deposit. Google provided me with some links to his old site where you can see some more of his work:

http://www.prosebass.com/apps/blog/categories/show/659122-customer-basses

Owen

Nice one, just popped him a mail!

RC88

dfkorg wrote: »

With the cost of bringing in parts to make the instrument, let alone the time spent sourcing woods and making necks and bodies, it is uneconomical to sell these instruments for that kind of money.

OP, it might be worth contacting Patrick Eggle or Gordon Smith in the UK. These are two fine luthiers who, for whatever reason (maybe being in the UK as opposed to the US), don't get credit for the fine instruments they make. They may offer some advice, or tell you where to go. Both make excellent instruments without the astronomical price tag that goes with some guitars coming out of the states.

The most encouraging thing I can say is to quote another icon of British guitar making, Trev Wilkinson: "Fender have about 20% of the market, there's still 80% of it up for grabs"

If it wasn't for people trying to break the mould we'd have no Lowden, PRS, Taylor, Breedlove, Dean, Patrick Eggle etc.

ok maybe that price is just in my dreams, i aploigise if i offended anyone(was kind headless when i wrote it), a more realistic area would prob be 1000-3000, extra parts (E.G like a floyd rose vibrato or a killswitch )costing extra. i would'nt pass it up knowing the guitar would be quality, again sorry

FruscianteFan

would love to start seeing some really affordable customs for a change is at all possible mate, if you were to make a great sounding guitar(orignal design) for around €400-€800, i might just take a pop myself, always on the look out for a bargain custom
i understand a lot of work goes into them but some custom guitars don't justify their prices
as for a career choice, would'nt advise it, maybe as a side job or hobby, not many people willing to pony up the dough

Yeah I completely agree with you, some custom guitars dont justify their prices, even with the like of Fender Custom Shop guitars, some arent worth the money they charge. Although they so make some great guitars they do charge a lot! A lot depends on parts though they can really add up. You could easily spend €500 on parts or on the other hand spend €150! That means it hard to give a price to people without knowing exactly what they want parts and spec wise! I dont want to talk about my prices on the thread as I dont want to be breaking any rules! :cool: But if you were getting a custom guitar for €400 all inclusive of all parts, labour, setup, warranty I would be abit worried. You would want to check it out before buying. There are a good few people online selling 'customs' on ebay and the like who are just buying cheap guitars from China and ripping people off! But with a small bit more it is definately possible to get a great custom guitar!

Yeah Floyds add to the cost a lot but for something like a kill switch there should be only about a tenner extra, just need to but the switch and pop it in! Also pickups can vary a load in price so they can push it up too as can inlays and any intricate work like that!

RC88

FruscianteFan wrote: »

Yeah I completely agree with you, some custom guitars dont justify their prices, even with the like of Fender Custom Shop guitars, some arent worth the money they charge. Although they so make some great guitars they do charge a lot! A lot depends on parts though they can really add up. You could easily spend €500 on parts or on the other hand spend €150! That means it hard to give a price to people without knowing exactly what they want parts and spec wise! I dont want to talk about my prices on the thread as I dont want to be breaking any rules! :cool: But if you were getting a custom guitar for €400 all inclusive of all parts, labour, setup, warranty I would be abit worried. You would want to check it out before buying. There are a good few people online selling 'customs' on ebay and the like who are just buying cheap guitars from China and ripping people off! But with a small bit more it is definately possible to get a great custom guitar!

Yeah Floyds add to the cost a lot but for something like a kill switch there should be only about a tenner extra, just need to but the switch and pop it in! Also pickups can vary a load in price so they can push it up too as can inlays and any intricate work like that!

tanx mate,pleased u agree,
but i guess that i said price was a little crazy for a guitar that not just a cheap knockoff someone is just trying to market as quality, but hey i can still dream can't i. and for now my current gear is the love of my life