Religion in schools 'a breach of children's human rights'

Fizzical

Article in today's Indo: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/religion-in-schools-a-breach-of-childrens-human-rights-2440091.html

The Irish Human Rights Commission (IHCR) issued a discussion paper over the weekend, posing a number of questions as to whether the law and practice in Ireland fully meets human rights standards.

"To put it somewhat baldly, the core issue to be discussed concerns whether religion has a place in the classroom and, if so, what role should it play," IHCR president Maurice Manning said.

He said the Irish position faced challenges under the European Convention on Human Rights, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

The questions raised by the discussion paper included the rights of children in a rural setting who have no option but to attend a religious-ethos school.

The IHCR paper notes that provision is made for the right of parents to withdraw their children from any instruction that conflicts with their own convictions.

However, because of the way that religion might informally permeate the school day in denominational schools, this right would not necessarily insulate such pupils from receiving religious education informally, it stated.

Dr Manning said the place of religion in the classroom was an issue with which all countries were grappling, but Ireland was somewhat unique internationally because religious orders had played a very prominent role in Irish education.

Ireland has a system of almost entirely denominational primary education, predominantly controlled by the Catholic Church, which runs about 92pc of primary schools. There are no non-denominational schools, and just over 2pc of schools are inter-denominational or multi-denominational.

The paper was launched at a conference held in association with the School of Law at Trinity College Dublin, which kick-started a national consultation process.

Dr Manning said after the consultation process was complete, at the end of January, they would make recommendations to the Government on the measures required for the State to meet its human rights obligations in this area.

What are your thoughts on the place and prominence of religion in schools? It is something that I have found difficult over the years, both with my own children in their school and with my position as a teacher in a very Catholic school.

Personally, I don't think religion has any place in a school other than to be studied for its part in world culture. I do agree with the use of the school premises after school hours for teaching of particular religions on a voluntary basis as the school is a community building.

I have a problem with a church group setting up a general school for the purpose of religious formation. Come and be educated - and take our religion too.

E.T.

I don't think that the majority of state schools should be denominational. I've worked in schools abroad where the children were taken for religious education from someone of their own faith (priest/rabbit etc) and this was the allotted time for religion. I've no problem with this, but I'd prefer if religious instruction took place outside of school hours - I feel our curriculum is completely overloaded as it is (12 subjects is ridiculous), let alone including 2.5 hours of religion a week.

I've got plenty of kids with special needs and learning difficulties who benefit from extra time and I'm not going to waste this time on a really badly written religious programme that has no meaning for most of them.

If parents are truly concerned about their child's religious upbringing then they should be contacting their priest/rabbi etc about extra instruction, and trying to find out what they can do in their community themselves. A good half of the kids I teach don't go to mass regularly, so why should school time be wasted when the belief obviously isn't there?

I do believe in a god, but not in any one religion. Unfortunately to get a primary teaching job in this country you have to be willing to teach Catholic doctrine (I know there are E.T. schools, but very, very few and none anywhere near me). I do feel like a hypocrite teaching specifically Catholic teachings that I don't agree with, and I'd hate the thought of teaching a class who were receiving a sacrament because I'd just feel I was letting them down, which isn't fair on them, or on myself.

Kohl

Fizzical wrote: »

Article in today's Indo: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/religion-in-schools-a-breach-of-childrens-human-rights-2440091.html







What are your thoughts on the place and prominence of religion in schools? It is something that I have found difficult over the years, both with my own children in their school and with my position as a teacher in a very Catholic school.

Personally, I don't think religion has any place in a school other than to be studied for its part in world culture. I do agree with the use of the school premises after school hours for teaching of particular religions on a voluntary basis as the school is a community building.

I have a problem with a church group setting up a general school for the purpose of religious formation. Come and be educated - and take our religion too.

why don't you go and teach in an independent school, or set up a religion free school if it bothers you so much.

E.T.

Kohl wrote: »

why don't you go and teach in an independent school, or set up a religion free school if it bothers you so much.

Because there are very, very few indendent primary schools in this country. Which is really ridiculous. I have absolutely no interest in setting up a school - I love teaching. Stopping teaching in order to set up and organise a religion free school doesn't appeal at all.

mikemac

Fizzical wrote: »

I have a problem with a church group setting up a general school for the purpose of religious formation.

The Church patronized our schools and hospitals decades ago when the State couldn't or wouldn't.

Are they to be asked to leave now and thanks for your time since the formation of the State?

You work in a Catholic school and you knew this before you applied.

There are independent schools out there, not enough by far but get organized so.
You know the system and have the contacts, look into setting up an independent school in your area but it's a lot of work. Other communities have done it already

alex73

Fizzical wrote: »

Article in today's Indo: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/religion-in-schools-a-breach-of-childrens-human-rights-2440091.html

I have a problem with a church group setting up a general school for the purpose of religious formation. Come and be educated - and take our religion too.

That is your opinion, As a Catholic Parent I am very happy to have my kids in a Catholic schools with a strong catholic ethos. Some of our best Schools in Ireland are Catholic run.

I went to a catholic run school and religious who ran it gave their heart and soul to our education.

What I think we need is the choice to send our kids to religious or non religious schools. However the problems usually ends in over subscripted religious schools because the education level is generally better.

Fizzical

Kohl wrote: »

why don't you go and teach in an independent school, or set up a religion free school if it bothers you so much.

I started the thread to find out other peoples opinions on the article.

What's your opinion about the way religion permeates school life? Prayers over the intercom, masses, prayers for exams, ceremonies for November, for Advent, for Easter, carol services, religion classes on most days, prayers at staff meetings.

Do you think this is a wonderful way to assimilate children into their faith community? Or a waste of teaching and learning time? Or a way to teach those who don't believe to be hypocritical as they watch others pay lip service to the ideals of the religious congregations who founded the schools?

If you think I should leave my job for having the temerity to question the situation, maybe you could tell me of some 'independent schools' that are hiring right now? Or even give the names of some so I can enquire in the future?

rainbowtrout

feelingstressed wrote: »

The Church patronized our schools and hospitals decades ago when the State couldn't or wouldn't.

Are they to be asked to leave now and thanks for your time since the formation of the State?

You work in a Catholic school and you knew this before you applied.

There are independent schools out there, not enough by far but get organized so.
You know the system and have the contacts, look into setting up an independent school in your area but it's a lot of work. Other communities have done it already

92% of schools in Ireland are under Catholic patronage. The OP doesn't have much choice.

The church and state are separate. If someone wants to bring up their child in a particular faith, let them at it, but that shouldn't mean other children are at a disadvantage because of it.

And before you say send those kids to another school - that simply doesn't work in rural areas where there is only one school, and particularly in primary schools where vast amounts of time are spent on preparing for communion and confirmation in school hours.

For the record, I'm not of any religion and I teach in secondary school. Students who are not catholic do not have to take part in religion classes and study is provided for them when there are schools masses on etc.

However I see graduation nights every year which involve a mass and often wonder why the graduation has to be celebrated with a mass. That's not all inclusive, despite the fact that our mission statement mentions the inclusion of all students.

MagicMarker

alex73 wrote: »

However the problems usually ends in over subscripted religious schools because the education level is generally better.

Can you provide sources to back that up?

#15

feelingstressed wrote: »

The Church patronized our schools and hospitals decades ago when the State couldn't or wouldn't.

Are they to be asked to leave now and thanks for your time since the formation of the State?

Yes. Just because the state was incapable* of providing education then, does not mean that it should not bother to provide education now that it is capable.

The church was not providing education out of the good of its collective heart - it was grooming future customers. A finely tuned machine of indoctrination.

*Actually it was capable, the state just decided that the ultra-catholic route was the ideal way to go:rolleyes:

You work in a Catholic school and you knew this before you applied.

Maybe he/she should have applied to one of the thousands of non-catholic schools out there.
:rolleyes:

TheDriver

look into how much the catholic church pays into primary school, some are supported from parish funds hence then they have a right to have their say. Also remember the church owns the land schools are built on. I would have to agree with the idea that Church stepped in when state wouldn't and now people don't want it.
I find most parents are very happy with their children in a Catholic/Christian school

E.T.

I think you'll find that the situation at the moment is that Catholic schools have to pay the church per pupil!
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-demands-euro2m-fees-from-national-schools-2186608.html

Kohl

Fizzical wrote: »

I started the thread to find out other peoples opinions on the article.

What's your opinion about the way religion permeates school life? Prayers over the intercom, masses, prayers for exams, ceremonies for November, for Advent, for Easter, carol services, religion classes on most days, prayers at staff meetings.

Do you think this is a wonderful way to assimilate children into their faith community? Or a waste of teaching and learning time? Or a way to teach those who don't believe to be hypocritical as they watch others pay lip service to the ideals of the religious congregations who founded the schools?

If you think I should leave my job for having the temerity to question the situation, maybe you could tell me of some 'independent schools' that are hiring right now? Or even give the names of some so I can enquire in the future?

I think learning about religion is something that a person can "learn" in their own time. Drop R.E. More time should be spent on Maths and Science. We are weak in these subjects.


Actually on a side note, I found a few independent schools on education.ie. Perhaps you can take a look.

g5fd6ow0hseima

alex73 wrote: »

That is your opinion, As a Catholic Parent I am very happy to have my kids in a Catholic schools with a strong catholic ethos. Some of our best Schools in Ireland are Catholic run.

What's a catholic parent? One who seeks to brainwash their children into believing the same nonsense that they themselves do?

alex73 wrote: »

I went to a catholic run school and religious who ran it gave their heart and soul to our education.

Its a given that teachers give their heart and soul to education.

alex73 wrote: »

What I think we need is the choice to send our kids to religious or non religious schools. However the problems usually ends in over subscripted religious schools because the education level is generally better.

Firstly, we dont have choice. I come from a rural area where secular schools didnt exist in my time, nor do they now. As another poster has said, over 90% of schools in this country are religiously affiliated.

Now: Could you please show material to back up your claim that the levels of education in religious schools are superior to their non-denominational counterparts?

Finally, I ask this question to all posters: What is the ration of funding that these schools recieve in terms of church / state?

byhookorbycrook

Interestingly enough, the original "National schools" were set up in 1831 to be non-denominational. Religion was to be taught during lunchtime -12.00 to 12.30.

niall3r

If a person does not want to teach in a Catholic school and feels uncomfortable doing so then they should not be teaching in said school. They can feel free to quit and search for a job in a non-denominational school. I dont think it is fair on a person to be teaching in an environment that they do not feel comfortable in. Similarily its not fair for pupils to be taught by students who do not feel comfortable.

In terms of the inclusion of religion in school there is actually a twofold issue that needs to be considered. The first is in the primary sector where religious instruction takes place, namely preperation for the sacraments etc. In the secondary sector what takes place is religious education which in non-denominational in nature. While there will more than likely be a bias, the actual curriculum stresses the other world religions and is an academic subject along the lines of the other humanities. People are not asked to believe what is being taught, but be aware that others believe, Hajj is taught alongside Lough Derg.

For those who have an issue with the Church being a part of the education system in general.Tough. Educate together schools exist and people are free to send their children there and until those schools are more common people are going to have very little recourse.

Besides, Catholic schools are better. That is just a fact. If you look at the top 20 schools in Ireland the vast majority are catholic ethos schools. This is not just an Irish thing, Catholic schools in England are oversubscribed and fare better than their non denom counterparts.

E.T.

niall3r wrote: »

If a person does not want to teach in a Catholic school and feels uncomfortable doing so then they should not be teaching in said school. They can feel free to quit and search for a job in a non-denominational school. I dont think it is fair on a person to be teaching in an environment that they do not feel comfortable in. Similarily its not fair for pupils to be taught by students who do not feel comfortable.

That would be a great idea if there was a fair distribution of religious/non-religious schools in this country. Seeing as over 90% of the schools here are denominational, your point is unworkable in reality.

niall3r wrote: »

In terms of the inclusion of religion in school there is actually a twofold issue that needs to be considered. The first is in the primary sector where religious instruction takes place, namely preperation for the sacraments etc. In the secondary sector what takes place is religious education which in non-denominational in nature. While there will more than likely be a bias, the actual curriculum stresses the other world religions and is an academic subject along the lines of the other humanities. People are not asked to believe what is being taught, but be aware that others believe, Hajj is taught alongside Lough Derg.

In the primary Catholic programme it is almost completely Catholic based. The teaching of religion is given almost as much time as all of the arts subjects put together (Visual Arts, Drama, Music) and one and a half times more than P.E. Classes who are getting sacraments spend most of every day in the weeks up to the event practising.

niall3r wrote: »

For those who have an issue with the Church being a part of the education system in general.Tough. Educate together schools exist and people are free to send their children there and until those schools are more common people are going to have very little recourse.

This is basically a reiteration of your first point, and again unworkable in this country at the moment.

niall3r wrote: »

Besides, Catholic schools are better. That is just a fact. If you look at the top 20 schools in Ireland the vast majority are catholic ethos schools. This is not just an Irish thing, Catholic schools in England are oversubscribed and fare better than their non denom counterparts.

As I've pointed out, more than 90% of the schools in this country are denominational. Saying that the top 20 schools are mostly Catholic ethos doesn't say much given this situation.

Fizzical

If a person does not want to teach in a Catholic school and feels uncomfortable doing so then they should not be teaching in said school. They can feel free to quit and search for a job in a non-denominational school.

Gosh, I never thought of that. I must hand in my notice tomorrow. I'll be so happy working in my new school next week!

In the secondary sector what takes place is religious education which in non-denominational in nature. While there will more than likely be a bias, the actual curriculum stresses the other world religions and is an academic subject along the lines of the other humanities. People are not asked to believe what is being taught, but be aware that others believe, Hajj is taught alongside Lough Derg.

You may have memories of your own classes in secondary school, but you can't ever have worked in one. Let me repeat myself: "What's your opinion about the way religion permeates school life? Prayers over the intercom, masses, prayers for exams, ceremonies for November, for Advent, for Easter, carol services, religion classes on most days, prayers at staff meetings."

For those who have an issue with the Church being a part of the education system in general.Tough. Educate together schools exist and people are free to send their children there and until those schools are more common people are going to have very little recourse.

Neither parents nor teachers are free to avoid the Catholic system when these schools are few and far between. 'Tough' is not a good enough response.

Besides, Catholic schools are better. That is just a fact. If you look at the top 20 schools in Ireland the vast majority are catholic ethos schools. This is not just an Irish thing, Catholic schools in England are oversubscribed and fare better than their non denom counterparts.

Most top schools are Catholic in a country where most schools are Catholic? What a surprise! And the English education system is notorious - not a good example.

#15

niall3r wrote: »

If a person does not want to teach in a Catholic school and feels uncomfortable doing so then they should not be teaching in said school. They can feel free to quit and search for a job in a non-denominational school.

Great, where are these non-denominational schools that you speak of?

Care to point us towards them?

I dont think it is fair on a person to be teaching in an environment that they do not feel comfortable in. Similarily its not fair for pupils to be taught by students who do not feel comfortable.

Is it fair for non-catholic students to be forced to go a catholic school?

For those who have an issue with the Church being a part of the education system in general.Tough.

Back to the 1950s we go.

Be catholic, or bog off.

Catholic state for a catholic people.

Educate together schools exist

Only a tiny % of schools are ET schools.

and people are free to send their children there

They're not, because most people don't have the option of ET schools.

and until those schools are more common people are going to have very little recourse.

This again.

Be catholic, or bog off.

Besides, Catholic schools are better. That is just a fact. If you look at the top 20 schools in Ireland the vast majority are catholic ethos schools.

You are being misleading, or if I had my cynical hat on, dishonest.

Of course the top 20 schools in Ireland are catholic - 92% of all primary schools are catholic.

This is not just an Irish thing, Catholic schools in England are oversubscribed and fare better than their non denom counterparts.

Different setting, different factors. Not relevant to the Irish context.

The ironic thing is that forcing children to attend diluted catholic schools actually harms the catholic faith too.

You would think that catholic people would demand authentic catholic schools - and not have the local state school serve as a watered down version for catholics and non-catholics alike.

MagicMarker

niall3r wrote: »

If a person does not want to teach in a Catholic school and feels uncomfortable doing so then they should not be teaching in said school. They can feel free to quit and search for a job in a non-denominational school. I dont think it is fair on a person to be teaching in an environment that they do not feel comfortable in. Similarily its not fair for pupils to be taught by students who do not feel comfortable.

In terms of the inclusion of religion in school there is actually a twofold issue that needs to be considered. The first is in the primary sector where religious instruction takes place, namely preperation for the sacraments etc. In the secondary sector what takes place is religious education which in non-denominational in nature. While there will more than likely be a bias, the actual curriculum stresses the other world religions and is an academic subject along the lines of the other humanities. People are not asked to believe what is being taught, but be aware that others believe, Hajj is taught alongside Lough Derg.

For those who have an issue with the Church being a part of the education system in general.Tough. Educate together schools exist and people are free to send their children there and until those schools are more common people are going to have very little recourse.

Besides, Catholic schools are better. That is just a fact. If you look at the top 20 schools in Ireland the vast majority are catholic ethos schools. This is not just an Irish thing, Catholic schools in England are oversubscribed and fare better than their non denom counterparts.

People are NOT free to send their children to non-denominational schools if there isn't one available to them. Are you aware of how astronomically outnumbered non-denominational schools are? There are 58 educate together schools in Ireland, compared to THOUSANDS of catholic schools.

And please provide sources that prove catholic schools are better simply because they're catholic. The top 20 schools in Ireland being catholic proves nothing when non-denominational schools are so greatly outnumbered. That's like putting a black person in a room with 200 white people and coming to the conclusion that white people are smarter than black people. I think you'll agree that it's utterly retarded logic.

byhookorbycrook

There is no such thing as a non-denom primary school in Ireland.

If there is demand for an ET or similar in an area, there is nothing to stop parents setting one up, this is how Gaelscoileanna started.

MagicMarker

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

There is no such thing as a non-denom primary school in Ireland.

If there is demand for an ET or similar in an area, there is nothing to stop parents setting one up, this is how Gaelscoileanna started.

How long does it take to set up one school?

#15

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If there is demand for an ET or similar in an area, there is nothing to stop parents setting one up, this is how Gaelscoileanna started.

Equally, there is nothing stopping the state from removing outside influence in state-run and state-funded schools.

byhookorbycrook

#15 wrote: »

Equally, there is nothing stopping the state from removing outside influence in state-run and state-funded schools.

Probably never going to happen in my lifetime,as so many schools are built on parish property.
If there is a sufficient demand a school can be set up within a year.

#15

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Probably never going to happen in my lifetime,as so many schools are built on parish property.

That is only a slight impediment. If the will was there, that problem could be dealt with.

Although - the will is not there. Most people seem happy enough with the current farce.

krankykitty

#15 wrote: »

That is only a slight impediment. If the will was there, that problem could be dealt with.

Although - the will is not there. Most people seem happy enough with the current farce.

You've personally asked most people and they've said they're happy with it? I think people might seem happy as they have little choice but go along with it.

gaeilgebeo

I teach Religion.
It is Religious education as in the religions of the world etc..
It is not faith formation.

MagicMarker

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I teach Religion.
It is Religious education as in the religions of the world etc..
It is not faith formation.

Is this primary or secondary school?

#15

MagicMarker wrote: »

Is this primary or secondary school?

Must be secondary.

Religious instruction is the order of the day in primary schools.

gaeilgebeo

MagicMarker wrote: »

Is this primary or secondary school?

Secondary.

#15

krankykitty wrote: »

You've personally asked most people and they've said they're happy with it?

No, that's why I said seem.

I think people might seem happy as they have little choice but go along with it.

That is what elections are for. People could have used their votes to support candidates who favour the seperation of church and state.

MagicMarker

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Secondary.

Ah, the damage is already done at that stage.

Miss Lockhart

It continues at secondary.

I teach in a VEC, which many seem to think has nothing to do with the church. However we have Catholic mass for every event, prayers over the intercom, retreats in the local Catholic church etc etc.

The school is run under a "deed of trust" between the VEC and the Diocese. There are several church representatives on the Board of Management and the chairperson is a nun.

People often suggest the VEC as the non-religious option for second level education, but there seems to be little difference in everyday religious practices in the school and those officially run by the church.

Are there any second level schools with no religious influence beyond offering the religion exam curriculum?

Fizzical

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I teach Religion.
It is Religious education as in the religions of the world etc..
It is not faith formation.

Gaeilgebeo, I'm glad that's what you teach. That's what should be taught.

My problem is with the prayer at the opening staff meeting, prayers over the intercom which all religion classes take part in, the opening school mass which all religion classes take part in, the carol serviced which all religion classes take part in, the Grads mass which all the Leaving cert religion classes take part in etc. There's nothing ostensibly wrong in all of this, just that it's all pervasive. That it exerts a peer pressure to conform, to agree, to support with your presence and your approval.

It makes me feel like an alien in my own place.

delta_bravo

Prayer before staff meetings seems rather unusual.

I went to a VEC non-denominational school but it had a chaplain and had masses for lent, confessions at Christmas etc. There were students of non Catholic faiths and athiests and I don't remember any one them feeling particularly ostracised. The school was very aware of the beliefs of the students and had Church of Ireland and Methodist services occasionally during the year. They really should have defined themselves as multi-denominational.

I now teach in a school which supposedly has a catholic ethos but it has a very small presence in the school, less so than when I went to school.

The reason most schools have a religious influence goes back to the 19th century. The British government brought grants out for groups wishing to establish schools as they didn't want to do it themselves. There were a few non religious groups that established schools (Kildare Place Society for one) but the majority were Catholic and Church of Ireland groups that created schools.

As far as I know a group of people can still come together and establish a school. Both the Catholic and Protestant faiths have declined in numbers over the years but they still remain the primary providers of education. Other groups simply haven't filled the gap. Now clearly from reading this thread there is demands for secular schools, perhaps you should come together and discuss forming an educational alternative if you feel strongly enough that a christian influence is a malevolent one.

Miss Lockhart

I'm not sure how easy it is to just set up a school.

Educate Together has been trying to set up a second level school in Lucan for over 10 years and applied officially in 2007 - since there are 5 fully subscribed ET primary schools in Lucan. However, the Department wants the school to be run jointly with County Dublin VEC.

It definitely does not seem to be straight forward if an established group such as ET are having difficulty.

byhookorbycrook

Not sure about secondary but I do know it is relatively easy at primary,once you can prove the demand.One of my friends was involved in establishment of a multi-denom Gaelscoil.It took a year to be recognised but it worked.

#15

delta_bravo wrote: »

The reason most schools have a religious influence goes back to the 19th century. The British government brought grants out for groups wishing to establish schools as they didn't want to do it themselves. There were a few non religious groups that established schools (Kildare Place Society for one) but the majority were Catholic and Church of Ireland groups that created schools.

That's exactly the problem. A 19th century education system in the 21st century.

Both the Catholic and Protestant faiths have declined in numbers over the years but they still remain the primary providers of education.

Is that not an issue? That declining faiths retain disproportionate control?

Other groups simply haven't filled the gap.

Would it be outrageous to suggest that the state should be filling that gap?

Now clearly from reading this thread there is demands for secular schools, perhaps you should come together and discuss forming an educational alternative if you feel strongly enough that a christian influence is a malevolent one.

It's not about malevolence, it's the principle of it. Do we want a secular state, or do we actually like the idea of state schools favouring one religion over another?

gaeilgebeo

Fizzical wrote: »

Gaeilgebeo, I'm glad that's what you teach. That's what should be taught.

My problem is with the prayer at the opening staff meeting, prayers over the intercom which all religion classes take part in, the opening school mass which all religion classes take part in, the carol serviced which all religion classes take part in, the Grads mass which all the Leaving cert religion classes take part in etc. There's nothing ostensibly wrong in all of this, just that it's all pervasive. That it exerts a peer pressure to conform, to agree, to support with your presence and your approval.

It makes me feel like an alien in my own place.

Truthfully, that is what I teach. No faith formation etc....


On a side note, last year, the R.E dept offered to have a "graduation service" as opposed to a graduation mass, non religious etc...

There was uproar, they WANTED a mass in the church.
A lot of them don't practice any religion and aren't anyway religious.
People can be spiritual and not necessarily religious.

Again, I'm only pointing this out.

I teach religion, but am more spiritual than religious.

niall3r

I can not really remember primary school and know very little about it. However I teach Religious Education and have taught it in the VEC system and voluntary secondary. And in secondary as has been said it is religious education and not faith formation.

And in terms of Catholic schools being better there is definitive research within the English sector. (Morris, 2007)This is also the case in the traditionally non-denominational American system but this is less definitive of an arguement as the majority of these schools are private schools and so have a specific enrolment policy and . . . well money. There are also studies carried out throughout
I have not come across any peer reviewed articles in the topic for Australia but

Positive correlations have been reported between religiosity, indicated by self reported frequency of church attendance and personal prayer, and positive attitudes towards schooling (Francis, 1992) and academic achievment.

We might actually be better off for the involvement of the Church in the education system considering 92% have religious belief ([mono]theistic) though admittedly the numbers who practice the faith . . . .decreases quite drastically.

I think people might seem happy as they have little choice but go along with it.

. . . or alternatively they are happy and you are projecting your own opinions and mentality on others.

This was a very unstructured response. . . apologies.

MagicMarker

niall3r wrote: »

And in terms of Catholic schools being better there is definitive research within the English sector. (Morris, 2007)

Are protestant schools better than catholic schools? Care to be a little more specific with your reference there?

niall3r wrote: »

Positive correlations have been reported between religiosity, indicated by self reported frequency of church attendance and personal prayer, and positive attitudes towards schooling (Francis, 1992) and academic achievment.

Positive correlations have been found between having a hot teacher and positive attitudes towards schooling. This doesn't really sound like it means anything tbh.

niall3r wrote: »

We might actually be better off for the involvement of the Church in the education system considering 92% have religious belief ([mono]theistic) though admittedly the numbers who practice the faith . . . .decreases quite drastically.

Do 92% of 5 year olds have religious belief?

#15

niall3r wrote: »

And in terms of Catholic schools being better there is definitive research within the English sector. (Morris, 2007)This is also the case in the traditionally non-denominational American system but this is less definitive of an arguement as the majority of these schools are private schools and so have a specific enrolment policy and . . . well money. There are also studies carried out throughout
I have not come across any peer reviewed articles in the topic for Australia but

Positive correlations have been reported between religiosity, indicated by self reported frequency of church attendance and personal prayer, and positive attitudes towards schooling (Francis, 1992) and academic achievment.

All irrelevant to this discussion.

It might be relevant if we had a non-denominational system that was underperforming in comparison to the faith schools.

But that is not the case - we don't even have a non-denominational system. You have no idea whether an Irish non-denom system would underperform or not.

There are multiple factors that affect academic performance - attributing academic success to religion and not one of the many other possible factors seems a bit skewed.

It's almost as if you have a conclusion in mind and are working backwards through the evidence, rather than allowing the evidence to lead you a conclusion.

We might actually be better off for the involvement of the Church in the education system considering 92% have religious belief ([mono]theistic) though admittedly the numbers who practice the faith . . . .decreases quite drastically.

It may well be the case that faith schools outperform non-denom schools.

What perplexes me though, is why some faith school advocates want everyone to attend faith schools?

Any suggestion that the state is financing a disproportionate number of faith schools is met with responses like yours.

Would you not prefer to have a smaller number of faith schools - in return for knowing that the students and teachers were genuinely of that faith? Genuine question.

How would that be worse than the current set-up, which is little more than an exercise in 'keeping up appearances' and a chance to engage in 'aren't we a great little holy country altogether' rhetoric?

CAI6

I've had this discussion with a few people and it's all the same. Religion has no place in schools. NO PLACE IN SCHOOLS. I don't want my children taught religion in school. When you enrol your child you are aware of the ethos of the school. Religious schools are run by religious orders. They teach them what they feel is right, and is important. When you put your child in this school of your own free choice, you cannot complain that your child is being taught religion. There are Educate Together schools.

However, I noticed a few times in my secondary school that the teachers who said prayers at the start of class made the children who were not catholic stand up as well. I found that rather sickening, and if it were me, I would not have appreciated it.

But having said that, I didn't agree with her not participating in religion class which was not, after first year I think, Catholic or Christian based, just because she was Muslim. She could have benefited as much as we did from learning about other religions.

And I know you'll probably all jump on me for saying that on a misconception that I agree with a religion based education system

IRWolfie-

I was brought through a Catholic Primary and Grammar school in the North, while generally good schools the gospels were taught as fact though and non-belief is never even mentioned as a valid alternative at any point.

patsman07

Around 12 years ago I was in my Junior Cert year in a Catholic secondary school. Our RE teacher showed us a picture of an aborted foetus in order to persuade us that abortion was wrong etc.
At the time I believed in God and the church but I still knew there was something wrong with what she was doing. I just didn't have the confidence/ability to point it out.
Since that time I have lost all belief/faith. Im an atheist and a primary school teacher. Im so so lucky to have a job in an et school, although i've to drive half an hour every morning to get there.
In teacher training college there was 36 people in the class and i'd reckon at least half would be against the teaching of religion in primary schools although most, I admit, would not be as opposed to it as I am.

Its a disgrace that children are thought beliefs during school time. Education should be about the teaching of concrete facts (as in all other subjects) and critical thinking.

Rosita

patsman07 wrote: »

Its a disgrace that children are thought beliefs during school time. Education should be about the teaching of concrete facts (as in all other subjects) and critical thinking.

Concrete facts as in all other subjects? Are you serious? History and English, to give just two examples, are largely about interpretation rather than concrete facts. The former as its worst can be distorted 'facts' handed down and perhaps never challenged by a teacher who agrees with them.

Children are thought 'beliefs' all the time in schools. They are told that bullying is bad, racism is bad, slagging gay people is bad. Would you not agree with the teaching of these beliefs?

If that teacher had, instead of showing you an aborted foetus given you a talk on how bad religion was, would you complain years later about attempts to inculcate 'beliefs' in you? Or is it simply the belief system you don't agree with that bothers you?

I have no difficulty with you being anti-religious, or arguing against its teaching, but let's not put some kind of inappropriate intellectual dressing over what is essentially as much a bias as that which your religion teacher displayed. Atheists peddle a belief system just as much as religious people do.

Toto Wolfcastle

MagicMarker, if you have something to say then verbalise it. What you you posted adds nothing to the discussion.

MagicMarker

Fair enough.

Rosita wrote: »

Atheists peddle a belief system just as much as religious people do.

This is complete and utter crap that has been debunked countless times over on the A&A forum, so much so that I cringe every time I see it mentioned.

eblistic

Rosita wrote: »

Children are thought 'beliefs' all the time in schools. They are told that bullying is bad, racism is bad, slagging gay people is bad. Would you not agree with the teaching of these beliefs?

Many of us, who would like to see the religious beliefs of different cultures taught about in a factual manner (I suggest a minority want no mention at all), would also like our kids to be taught *why* certain ethical positions are the norm in society.

We should distinguish between beliefs whose sole basis is clearly some revealed text or lore on the one hand, and values which have more rational foundations on the other. Personally, I would also advocate teaching children how to question all of these values critically, and make sure they start to acquire the skills to think them through.

Rosita

MagicMarker wrote: »

Fair enough.

This is complete and utter crap that has been debunked countless times over on the A&A forum, so much so that I cringe every time I see it mentioned.

These I imagine would be the same geniuses who argue that they passively 'lack belief' rather than actively 'not believing' while missing the gigantic irony of the fact that there is a A&A forum at all, or that there is an Atheist Ireland association, but not, say, (to pick one of the most hackneyed Athetist cling-to analogies) an Irish we-don't-believe-the-unicorn-exists organisation!

If they don't have a belief system then what is all the hullabullo about?

You might cringe - I just laugh.

MagicMarker

Rosita wrote: »

These I imagine would be the same geniuses who argue that they passively 'lack belief' rather than actively 'not believing' while missing the gigantic irony of the fact that there is a A&A forum at all, or that there is an Atheist Ireland association, but not, say, (to pick one of the most hackneyed Athetist cling-to analogies) an Irish we-don't-believe-the-unicorn-exists organisation!

If they don't have a belief system then what is all the hullabullo about?

You might cringe - I just laugh.

When people who believe in unicorns start indoctrinating our children there will probably be an Aunicornist organisation.

Out of interest, do you believe in unicorns? And if not, is that a belief system?