James Downey

Ian_K

Right, I might be alone on this but i think this guy should be given a chance.
Our options at 12 arent great anyway, behind Darcy we have Paddy Wallace and Fergus McFadden, neither of which are capable of playing international rugby at much of a standard
The only other real options are moving BOD or Bowe

Downey is 6'4" and a good old fashioned 12, in the Jauzion mould, but his distribution needs work. Could certainly punch a few holes in oposition defences though

wixfjord

This has been touted here before and in my opinion its crazy talk.
A bosh merchant who couldnt make it here.
The guy is big and eh thats the only thing about him.
We've gone past the days of Kevin Maggs.
I dont get this at all about Darce, he's been playing well for Leinster and did ok last weekend imo. Lot worse than him.

Ian_K

wixfjord wrote: »

I dont get this at all about Darce, he's been playing well for Leinster and did ok last weekend imo. Lot worse than him.

I never said he should be starting ahead of Darcy, but i think hes probably the next best option behind Darcy

Sometimes a bit of grunt at 12 is exactly what you need, the Samoa game a few weeks ago would have suited Downey down to the ground

Amazotheamazing

I don't think it should be case of either/or. Against some teams a guy like Downey would be great, against others probably less so. Certainly I think we could do with a really abrasive centre against teams like Argentina and Italy, team which, tbf, are more about shutting down the opposition than playing rugby.

sock puppet

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I don't think it should be case of either/or. Against some teams a guy like Downey would be great, against others probably less so. Certainly I think we could do with a really abrasive centre against teams like Argentina and Italy, team which, tbf, are more about shutting down the opposition than playing rugby.

Agree. He should be in the A squad ahead of someone like Matthews. Then see how he does from there.

WeeBushy

He is far behind McFadden imo. There should be calls for him before thinking about playing Downey. Downey is an honest, hard-working player, but nowhere near international standard i think.

Give him a shot at A level certainly, and see how he goes, but just don't think he's good enough.

CatFromHue

I havent seen enough of him to comment accurately.

I think it would be no harm to give him a run out in the 6 nations A games.

people may be little kevin maggs contribution to ireland which is unfair. he was limited in that he never had the silky skills of o driscoll but he was effective all the same and did his job well.

if you do look around at other nations they do tend to go for big guys at 12 i.e. nonu for nz, de villiers for sa, jauzion for france, morrisson for scotland, roberts for wales etc.

darcy though is decpetively hard to stop, he is very strong with a low centre of gravity and does create momentuum.

downey has played 12 games for saints with two of em in the heineken cup. mcfadden has played 8 games for leinster but downey has twice the playing time. on game time alone downey deserves the 12 jersey for A team.

[Jackass]

Horgan would be a far superior 12. He's just not international class, simple as. I've played with the guy, and he's a great player, but at pro level, i'm surprised that he's done as well as he has tbh. I would have said Andy Dunne of anyone from Belvo around that time would have gone on to represent Ireland, but it just never transpired for the guy. Amazing at schools level, one of the best i've seen, but average at pro level. I'm feeling the same thing could be happening to Paul O'Donoghue unfortunately...

myflipflops

[Jackass] wrote: »

. I'm feeling the same thing could be happening to Paul O'Donoghue unfortunately...

Not to drag off topic but I fear this too.

I remember watching O'Donoghue play for UCD when he was 19/20 and thinking this guy had a big future with Ireland. He always stood out by a mile.

bamboozle

[Jackass] wrote: »

Horgan would be a far superior 12. He's just not international class, simple as. I've played with the guy, and he's a great player, but at pro level, i'm surprised that he's done as well as he has tbh. I would have said Andy Dunne of anyone from Belvo around that time would have gone on to represent Ireland, but it just never transpired for the guy. Amazing at schools level, one of the best i've seen, but average at pro level. I'm feeling the same thing could be happening to Paul O'Donoghue unfortunately...

having seen both downey and POD playing with Clontarf and always being head and shoulders above all they've been unlucky at provincial level, Downey had an ill-fated season at connacht where Bradley insisted in playing him on the wing, he was injured a lot of that season also and then released.
POD is in the last season of his Leinster contract, his best bet is to head out west and reunite his half back partnership with Ian Keatley, they've played together throughout school at belvedere, Irish U20's, UCD, Clontarf. POD is a class act but now needs to get consistent exposure at top level, he actually played half an AIL game for Tarf recently at 10, presumably at Leinster's insistence.

Downey played his 100th Saints match last weekend, good power and offloading game but zero pace at the top level yet deserves to be capped at this stage considering the likes of Barry Murphy, Ian Whitten have earned caps in recent years.

buck65

That's a bit harsh on Barry Murphy who has spent half his career on the sideline with injury. He could have been a great option for Ireland with a few good seasons behind him. Did you see his try against the Scarlets 2 weeks ago?

danthefan

wixfjord wrote: »

I dont get this at all about Darce, he's been playing well for Leinster and did ok last weekend imo. Lot worse than him.

Don't worry about it, having a go at D'Arcy seems to be pretty common on this forum. It's complete nonsense however.

smurphy29

Indeed, Darcy is taken for granted in Irish rugby. How many times have I heard people wanting to shunt BOD to 12 for some deranged experiment to accomodate someone else at 13 (usually Earls). People forget that they're booting a great player out of the team. Darce may be a bit of a streak player, but when he's bang in form he's one fo our best.

James Downey is one of those good club / provincial players who is bit off international class.

Ian_K

danthefan wrote: »

Don't worry about it, having a go at D'Arcy seems to be pretty common on this forum. It's complete nonsense however.

Here, read my post again please, i was suggesting Downey be capped to see if he was good enough to cover for Darcy, should that situation arise,

What i said was our cover at 12 wasnt great (i.e. I dont rate Paddy Wallace as an international centre)

Darcy is probably my favourite Leinster player as it happens and ive always felt he never got the credit he deserved

irishbucsfan

Ian_K wrote: »

Here, read my post again please, i was suggesting Downey be capped to see if he was good enough to cover for Darcy, should that situation arise,

What i said was our cover at 12 wasnt great (i.e. I dont rate Paddy Wallace as an international centre)

Darcy is probably my favourite Leinster player as it happens and ive always felt he never got the credit he deserved

Different type of player, but Paddy Wallace is better than James Downey will ever be.

bamboozle

buck65 wrote: »

That's a bit harsh on Barry Murphy who has spent half his career on the sideline with injury. He could have been a great option for Ireland with a few good seasons behind him. Did you see his try against the Scarlets 2 weeks ago?

injuries aside, he cant/wont pass or offload, he looked good 4 or 5 years ago but has never had a decent run of games. great pace but that's all.

Not enjoying the Paddy Wallace put downs tbh.

I think he's a fantastic player, and we have literally no other 12s that play the game like him.

I can understand someone calling for a backup 12 to suit a different gameplan than is allowed with Wallace in the 12 slot, but saying that Wallace isn't international standard is a bit off imo.

If BOD had missed the Argentina game (which I hoped he would), we could've seen a Stringer - Sexton - Wallace - D'Arcy backline. I think that's one of the quickest backlines we would be likely to see in terms of hand speed and passing. Alas, it wasn't to be.

Ciaran-Irl

If he was good enough to challenge for a place at 12 for Ireland, Munster would have taken him as their crash ball style inside centre. He plays the style that McGahan seems to look for in a 12. If he isn't better than Mafi and Tuitupou, then he isn't good enough for Ireland.

Nukem

Watched Downey and ya he has improved a lot in the last few seasons but international or even on the A team? Just don't see it - he is pretty one dimensional and prone to giving away stupid penalties and getting himself out of position defensively.

Add to that he is 29 and there are younger talents coming through Ulster and Connacht especially.

danthefan

Nukem wrote: »

Watched Downey and ya he has improved a lot in the last few seasons but international or even on the A team? Just don't see it - he is pretty one dimensional and prone to giving away stupid penalties and getting himself out of position defensively.

Add to that he is 29 and there are younger talents coming through Ulster and Connacht especially.

Exactly. D'Arcy and Wallace will keep us going for the next 2 seasons or so, by that time Marshall (if Ulster do their job) should have ML and HEC experience and could become an option.

thomond2006

Nukem wrote: »

Watched Downey and ya he has improved a lot in the last few seasons but international or even on the A team? Just don't see it - he is pretty one dimensional and prone to giving away stupid penalties and getting himself out of position defensively.

Add to that he is 29 and there are younger talents coming through Ulster and Connacht especially.

I never knew he was that old. I don't think he's that great anyway but at that age there's little point investing time in him now.

In terms of youth, centre is not a weak area in Irish rugby.

little173

The main reason is that Darcy is a different 12 to others in international rugby is because he is not actually a 12, orginally a full back he would have stayed at 13 all his playing career if not for yer man.

As said, Darce has been superb for many years, though it may be worth giving Downey an A team run, it would be good to have a different option there, good to see him getting a good run with Northampton as well.

irishbucsfan

little173 wrote: »

The main reason is that Darcy is a different 12 to others in international rugby is because he is not actually a 12, orginally a full back he would have stayed at 13 all his playing career if not for yer man.

As said, Darce has been superb for many years, though it may be worth giving Downey an A team run, it would be good to have a different option there, good to see him getting a good run with Northampton as well.

I think there are plenty of options in the country should be wish to look. Ian Whitten for example, who is a better player than Downey IMO.

Luckycharm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think there are plenty of options in the country should be wish to look. Ian Whitten for example, who is a better player than Downey IMO.

Downey is not international class he has played for the A team a few times done ok. Whitten is just bosh merchant he is very average - not great hands either and see Marshall taking his place soon.

d'Oracle

Deleted User wrote: »

and we have literally no other 12s that play the game like him.

Which is the problem.
Having a tackle free boulevard between 10 and 13 is not a good thing.

irishbucsfan

Luckycharm wrote: »

Downey is not international class he has played for the A team a few times done ok. Whitten is just bosh merchant he is very average - not great hands either and see Marshall taking his place soon.

No, he really isn't. He has great pace (which is why he's often an option at 13), he has no problems with his hands at all, and breaks the line often.

When Whitten came onto the scene Darren Cave was touted as the next big thing, but Whitten out played him last season and to me, is a more valuable player than Cave.

The problem at Ulster is they have so many options in the outside backs and they never settle on what they want to do there. (Cave/Whitten/Trimble have all had runs in the team at 13)

irishbucsfan

d'Oracle wrote: »

Which is the problem.
Having a tackle free boulevard between 10 and 13 is not a good thing.

Paddy Wallace's defense isn't a problem. Don't see any evidence of that.

Luckycharm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, he really isn't. He has great pace (which is why he's often an option at 13), he has no problems with his hands at all, and breaks the line often.

When Whitten came onto the scene Darren Cave was touted as the next big thing, but Whitten out played him last season and to me, is a more valuable player than Cave.

The problem at Ulster is they have so many options in the outside backs and they never settle on what they want to do there. (Cave/Whitten/Trimble have all had runs in the team at 13)

Disagree Whitten very rarely offloads, the only reason he might have been playing 13 was because Cave was/is injured for quite a while. Trimble is a poor 13 he doesn't have the hands/rugby brain to play there. Cave is by far their best option at 13.
They might have plenty of outside backs but very few of them are top quality- a few young lads coming through thought that might be decent like spence, marshall, gilroy looks good and they have a very good 10 coming up who could be decent.

irishbucsfan

Luckycharm wrote: »

Disagree Whitten very rarely offloads, the only reason he might have been playing 13 was because Cave was/is injured for quite a while. Trimble is a poor 13 he doesn't have the hands/rugby brain to play there. Cave is by far their best option at 13.
They might have plenty of outside backs but very few of them are top quality- a few young lads coming through thought that might be decent like spence, marshall, gilroy looks good and they have a very good 10 coming up who could be decent.

The fact that he doesn't offload doesn't make him a bad center. I personally don't remember that as a problem. He's certainly a far more creative player than James Downey.

Cave is not by far the best Ulster 13, and that has been evidenced by Whitten starting ahead of him on occasion. Cave has been disappointing in not reaching the lofty targets expected of him when he was coming through the ranks.

Marshall and Spence both have a lot expected of them. However Spence disappointed on nearly every occasion he started for the U20s last season, except for the final game when selected beside Griffen. He also has a lot of mass to put on before he can be an option for Ulster. Even on the wing a couple of weeks ago he seemed far too small. Given time he could excel, but he's not there yet. Marshall is cracking prospect, but won't play 13. Meaning we probably won't see him regularly for a few years unless Wallace is selected at 10.

Gilroy and Jackson will play for Ulster sooner rather than later, given that they play in positions where players can survive despite a lack of physicality. Especially considering they're screaming for a 10 and Jackson seems to be impressing with every performance for the Ravens.


Marshall, Whitten, Cave, Wallace. 4 Ulster players who are all better options for Ireland that James Downey.

Digifriendly

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Cave is not by far the best Ulster 13, and that has been evidenced by Whitten starting ahead of him on occasion. Cave has been disappointing in not reaching the lofty targets expected of him when he was coming through the ranks.
Marshall and Spence both have a lot expected of them. However Spence disappointed on nearly every occasion he started for the U20s last season, except for the final game when selected beside Griffen. He also has a lot of mass to put on before he can be an option for Ulster. Even on the wing a couple of weeks ago he seemed far too small. Given time he could excel, but he's not there yet. Marshall is cracking prospect, but won't play 13. Meaning we probably won't see him regularly for a few years unless Wallace is selected at 10.
Gilroy and Jackson will play for Ulster sooner rather than later, given that they play in positions where players can survive despite a lack of physicality. Especially considering they're screaming for a 10 and Jackson seems to be impressing with every performance for the Ravens.
Marshall, Whitten, Cave, Wallace. 4 Ulster players who are all better options for Ireland that James Downey.

Gilroy has already started for Ulster having scored 2 tries vs Cardiff and Treviso. Not picked for this weekend's HC match as he wasn't registered but a real prospect nonetheless. Jackson may well be the answer to Ulster's out half problems. Agree re Cave - a couple of seasons back he was starring but has fallen off the pace a bit recently. Whitten is very strong physically and has a good defence but likes guile of Cave or Wallace. He's very consistent nevertheless.

CouchSmart

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Paddy Wallace's defense isn't a problem. Don't see any evidence of that.

Samoa's try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MMHoUMKJOY

irishbucsfan

CouchSmart wrote: »

Samoa's try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MMHoUMKJOY

Yes that's a good point.

That was a bad mistake. However one mistake does not make a bad defender, and Wallace has shown over the past 2 years that he is more than capable in defense. He may lack the physicality of D'Arcy, but he is not a bad defender.

If one mistake made a bad defender then BOD's performance against France in the 6 Nations would make him the worst defender on the planet. Obviously the opposite is probably the truth.

CouchSmart

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes that's a good point.

That was a bad mistake. However one mistake does not make a bad defender, and Wallace has shown over the past 2 years that he is more than capable in defense. He may lack the physicality of D'Arcy, but he is not a bad defender.

If one mistake made a bad defender then BOD's performance against France in the 6 Nations would make him the worst defender on the planet. Obviously the opposite is probably the truth.

Ye I agree. Just pointing out there is evidence. There's plenty more too of his mistakes in both Ulster and Ireland jerseys. Anyway he's not James Downey so who cares! :P

Luckycharm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The fact that he doesn't offload doesn't make him a bad center. I personally don't remember that as a problem. He's certainly a far more creative player than James Downey.
Cave is not by far the best Ulster 13, and that has been evidenced by Whitten starting ahead of him on occasion. Cave has been disappointing in not reaching the lofty targets expected of him when he was coming through the ranks.

Marshall and Spence both have a lot expected of them. However Spence disappointed on nearly every occasion he started for the U20s last season, except for the final game when selected beside Griffen. He also has a lot of mass to put on before he can be an option for Ulster. Even on the wing a couple of weeks ago he seemed far too small. Given time he could excel, but he's not there yet. Marshall is cracking prospect, but won't play 13. Meaning we probably won't see him regularly for a few years unless Wallace is selected at 10.

Would you have considered Philip Danaher or Maurice field top notch centres?

Gilroy and Jackson will play for Ulster sooner rather than later, given that they play in positions where players can survive despite a lack of physicality. Especially considering they're screaming for a 10 and Jackson seems to be impressing with every performance for the Ravens.


Marshall, Whitten, Cave, Wallace. 4 Ulster players who are all better options for Ireland that James Downey.

I think we might disagree on centre play being able to offload/pass is the major difference between an ok centre and a top centre. Bosh merchants do ok against weak opposition but get found out against the top teams. Look how Nonu has developed in recent years, look at Conrad smith vis a via the BOk centres who are poor passers. Watch how many moves die when whitten gets the ball and just boshs it up. Cave has alot more guile - look at how uncreative the Ulster backline when he is not playing like against Connacht/Biarritz first half.

Would you have considered Philip Danaher or Maurice Field top notch centres?

makl

Downey playing in the Cup final now. Don't think he's deserving of criticism he gets. any other irish @ northampton?

jolley123

makl wrote: »

Downey playing in the Cup final now. Don't think he's deserving of criticism he gets. any other irish @ northampton?

Roger Wilson the no.8

Stev_o

Wilson was outstanding yesterday and against Ulster. Shame really that Ireland's backrow is competitive as it is. Would be handy to have a out and out 8 though in the squad as opposed to just a utility backrower covering that position.

CatFromHue

wilson against heaslip and darcy against downey in the final!

i think darcy will be well able for downey.

wilson and heaslip should be a great match up. im trying to think of any out and out irish no.8 playing in the pro game and i cant think of any. there is henry in ulster but he has been moved to 7 because of wannenberg.

sock puppet

Stev_o wrote: »

Wilson was outstanding yesterday and against Ulster. Shame really that Ireland's backrow is competitive as it is. Would be handy to have a out and out 8 though in the squad as opposed to just a utility backrower covering that position.

Then again we did play Henry (deserved at the time), Tuohy and Ronan in the backrow last year. Definitely hard done by.

phily2002

I'd have Downey there ahead of Wallace. With O'Gara/Sexton on the bench theres no need for Wallace(especially the fact Kidney's no intention of using him). At least Downey offers something a bit different. He should definitly get a look in for the pre world cup friendlys.

CIARAN_BOYLE

phily2002 wrote: »

I'd have Downey there ahead of Wallace. With O'Gara/Sexton on the bench theres no need for Wallace(especially the fact Kidney's no intention of using him). At least Downey offers something a bit different. He should definitly get a look in for the pre world cup friendlys.

I'd have McFadden on the bench ahead of either Wallace or Downey. IMO Downey is not versatile enough to make the 30 man squad.

Tomtom364

I reckon Downey should be given the call up to the warm up games to see what he can offer Ireland.

Also, a lil bit off topic. I think that he would be a fantastic signing for Munster. He is exactly what Munster needs from a 12, and he's Irish. Besides, with a lil bit more play here he may develop into a good option for Ireland.

David900

Tomtom364 wrote: »

I reckon Downey should be given the call up to the warm up games to see what he can offer Ireland.

Also, a lil bit off topic. I think that he would be a fantastic signing for Munster. He is exactly what Munster needs from a 12, and he's Irish. Besides, with a lil bit more play here he may develop into a good option for Ireland.

This was discussed on the transfer thread I think. Apparently they had a look at him but he said he was happy enough where he was.

twinytwo

smurphy29 wrote: »

Indeed, Darcy is taken for granted in Irish rugby. How many times have I heard people wanting to shunt BOD to 12 for some deranged experiment to accomodate someone else at 13 (usually Earls). People forget that they're booting a great player out of the team. Darce may be a bit of a streak player, but when he's bang in form he's one fo our best.

James Downey is one of those good club / provincial players who is bit off international class.

Em this was to get someone else playing 13 for a while.. And less face it there is no way in hell id ever drop drico.

hsbc

I'd defo give Downey a shot at making the 30 man squad - play him in a warm-up game at least and let him train with the squad. I think he would have something to offer against the likes of Russia & the US. McFadden is better suited to the wing IMO. is there any way Wilson could make it into the WC squad? he's been pretty decent in the HC this season...

roycon

darcy played very well against toulouse but i think mcfaddens time has come and hes should be starting with odriscoll occassionally. downey has worked his way into a starting position in a heineken cup final with limited ability. fairplay to him hes a solid consistent player but the irish team are never going to win a lot of matches by having big burly centres. england and southa frica and france will always have much bigger guys who can kill us. we'll always have to go for a more skilful passing running game like leinster have been doing this year so successfully and like new zealand decide to do after the world cup in 2003 when they were embarassed. for this reason downey should never get a look in unless hes part of a particular tactic in a particular match. he should get a few caps with Ireland a to feel him out and find his limitations but i fear that as far as it will get. luke marshall, nevin spence, omalley,mcfadden are the way forward. not the bastareuds, and matt banahans of this world - for ireland anyway

roycon

roger wilson has a chance i reckon if ferris is till injured there is a place there. obrien, wallace,heaslip, ferris are all racing certainties, wilson,leamy muldoon,mclaughlin,dominic ryan, rhys ruddock,chris henry, james coughlan, willy faloon are all possibles

Mahony

Its harsh but true I think that downey was at both Leinster and Munster and never made it. He was useful at Connacht. But He wasn't good enough then so why now for Ireland. Hes an English premiership typical player.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Does Wilson cover a position other than 8. If he can only play 8 which is all I've seen from him I wouldn't bring him since if you aren't first choice you need to be cover for a couple of shirts.

bamboozle

roycon wrote: »

roger wilson has a chance i reckon if ferris is till injured there is a place there. obrien, wallace,heaslip, ferris are all racing certainties, wilson,leamy muldoon,mclaughlin,dominic ryan, rhys ruddock,chris henry, james coughlan, willy faloon are all possibles

must as i dont like saying it but Leamy is a shoe in, not based on his form as other are playing better and others again are potentially better, but on reputation and the fact he's used to the squad.

i'd have Muldoon ahead of Leamy any day, SOB and Heaslip cover 8.

GerM

Mahony wrote: »

Its harsh but true I think that downey was at both Leinster and Munster and never made it. He was useful at Connacht. But He wasn't good enough then so why now for Ireland. Hes an English premiership typical player.

Downey only ever had a trial with Munster. Following the trial, Munster offered him a contract but, as Halstead was still there and Downey wanted HEC rugby, he rejected it. He played a year of HEC rugby in Italy and on the back of that was signed by Northampton. He didn't make it at Leinster but in fairness he had several Lions as well as a complete carbon copy of him in David Quinlan playing ahead of him (and Quinland was probably better again than Downey). Downey actually replaced Quinlan at Northampton when concussions forced Quinlan to retire early.