Pull and Nepotism in the Defence Forces

SamuelFox

In regards to the pull and nepotism comments in the Cadets thread I thought I'd start this one.

I can only comment on what I know, and that is the fact the “pull” is a huge factor, not only in getting into the Defence Forces, but also on postings, career courses, overseas, etc. Nepotism is a real problem, and its not just family connections, its also sporting (very common) – e.g. officers involved in particular sports getting their protégés in, or the club tie where mates in the same club (of whatever sport) help each other’s kids out, its social, its business links, its political links. However its rampant, and believe me for every soldier that admits it there is a huge number that won’t.

The other comment I hear a lot of is that the kids of Defence Forces personnel are somehow genetically programmed to be good officers, and this comes out at interview. Utter nonsense. The traits for good leaders are found right across society, not just in the past occupants of the wombs of army wives.

In frontline armies, where families are closely interlinked to service communities, and follow the service member around the world on postings, there might be an argument to say that these people understand the unique nature of service life. That’s not the case in Ireland. If your dad is a soldier in Ireland you see him as often as if he were a postman. Fair enough, he’s on the road a lot, but he hasn’t taken the family to live in Germany or Hong Kong, and you won’t move every two years from one grotty quarter to another. The Irish Army is rare in that family life is very stable, and so army brats in Ireland are no different to any other kids.

Also, people compare the world of business to the Irish Army. Again, nonsense. If I build up a business I’m not going to advertise openly to find a replacement me on retirement. Where possible I’m going to give it to my kids, especially since the main reason it was set up was probably to feed and clothe the kids in the first place! The Army is different. Its not the property of an individual, it belongs to the community, like any other public service, so jobs should go to the most deserving. In reality, when you look at the number of senior officers with multiple kids in the Defence Forces, and DF members with siblings also serving you know there has to be a problem.

One of my former FCA COs has two officer sons, another senior officer I know of has two children as officers (and possibly three), a guy I played football with is an officer, and so is his brother. [EDIT - these are examples, not accusations!] I What are the odds of all these? The PDF members reading this are uncomfortably recalling similar examples. Of course there are exceptions – there is a Lt Col’s son in the British Army who couldn’t get the Cadets – but the point in the main stands – there are too many family links in the Defence Forces for it to be a coincidence.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

You need to get a blog instead of posting this crap, its starting to get annoying!

Did you apply for Cadets and get turned down? and if so, Is it because your daddy isn't in the DF?

cushtac

Between friends & guys who were in the FCA with me I know around 20 PDF officers, only one of them had an officer in the family & a handful of others were related to NCOs. Most of them went to public schools & none of them were playing sports at a high level.

Draw your own conclusions from all of that.

ChunkyLover_53

I don't understand what is the problem? was a complaint made or did something happen reference a nepotism scandal?

Is this affecting the day to day running of the Defence Forces in any way?

Surely in the selection process for recruitment even a candidate without any Defence Force connections will still be assessed on there merits by an interview board ?

Are all currently serving members of the Defence Forces related to each other or am I missing something?

BigDuffman

It stands to reason that it does give them an added advantage....the offspring of a DF officer may have been exposed to certain aspects of the DF lifestyle and be aware of the benefits and problems that are associated with it.

Time spent away from home, demanding hours and preparations are all things that army brats will have experienced from a young age and will not come as a shock to the system. Also they may have developed an interest in aspects of military life by listening to their fathers war stories or being brought out on hikes / shooting etc.

Same way that a son tends to follow in their fathers footsteps regarding football teams, a mental conditioning and predisposition towards all things green or DPM may be a natural progression.

Also please note Ireland is a small country with a small DF. It is very likely that if one of their parents was an officer, the officer on the interview board may very well know them by name or reputation.

I personally know of 2 people who's fathers were PDF cmdt's one was a bag of ham and did not even get a consideration. The other girl shone through with flying colours and is excelling on the cadet course!

Regarding sporting associations. Prior knowledge of someones performance and personality, will of course have an influence in selection. In my opinion that is no bad thing. Knowing someone conduct and reactions on a rugby pitch can bare a reflection on how they may compose themselve off the pitch. Stack that as the final straw between an unknown and a known candidate based on personality I know which way I would lean. However, by no means does that mean "ah sure thats Billy who plays corner back for the parish, he's a bit slow but good lad..we'll give it to him so over that fancy college fella" is by any means acceptable or in reality tolerated at all!

That single on your shoulder has this forum reeking of salt and vinegar.

PS

ChunkyLover_53 wrote: »

Are all currently serving members of the Defence Forces related to each other or am I missing something?

Only in the West

SIRREX

What you call nepotism I would call family tradition, there is a great tradition a sons following in their fathers footsteps into the military, and not just in this country.
I never heard these complaints back when the pay was sh*t and lads still followed dads, it's just something that happens and if you talk to anyone who trained recruits as part of their career most would say there is a considerable difference between those from army families and those with no military links.

Those with experience of seeing a parent spend weeks in the Glen, doing 24 hour duties and all the other Cr*p involved with military life are less likely to run screaming for Mammy when they are told to dig a hole and sleep in it for 2 days

They can also answer the questions they are asked at interview because it's the type of thing they hear being discussed around the dinner table at home

lapsed

Conversely, would discriminating against children of serving officers be OK ?

goldie fish

I know 4 people who got cadetships in recent years.

None have family in the DF.

Donny5

SIRREX wrote: »

Those with experience of seeing a parent spend weeks in the Glen, doing 24 hour duties and all the other Cr*p involved with military life are less likely to run screaming for Mammy when they are told to dig a hole and sleep in it for 2 days

Man, two days sleeping in a hole sounds like a holiday, to be honest....

Dyr

SIRREX wrote: »

military life are less likely to run screaming for Mammy when they are told to dig a hole and sleep in it for 2 days

Call me jaundiced but, with one exception, the ex PDF guys I've worked with would give you the impression that sleeping for 2 days was pretty much all they were good for :eek:

SIRREX

lapsed wrote: »

Conversely, would discriminating against children of serving officers be OK ?

It was tried with the intake of '94. I can't speak for anywhere except the East as I was in the Brugha at the time, but it didn't work out well. They took in the highest qualified lads they could get, regardless of suitability for Army life. The drop out rate was very high especially as things were picking up and they could get the same money for working in McDonalds without the grief

lapsed

Donny5 wrote: »

Man, two days sleeping in a hole sounds like a holiday, to be honest....

Last November , in the worst weather in decades , with the force of the water coming off the hillside threatening to take the harbour, shellscrape and all down the mountain. That's your idea of a holiday ? You must be one tough nut.

Local-womanizer

BigDuffman wrote: »

Only in the West

Why cross the street when you can cross the hall?!

xflyer

Nepotism and pull is a fact of life in Ireland, not just in the Defence forces. Even now for almost any job, who you know is more important that what you know. Aer Lingus always had 'canvassing will disqualify' on their ads. What a laugh that was. During a course on jobseeking some years ago. We were told that the majority of jobs where obtained through contacts. It's still true.

As for the DF, someone mentioned family tradition. Frankly that's also true of many careers. But also kids very often inherit their parent's traits thus making them suitable to follow in their Father's footsteps. I see it in my sons. I expect one or other of them will try for the cadets when he's old enough. More successfully than me I hope.

dodgydes

I certainly think that a serving officer's son/daughter/nephew etc would be encouraged to join the DF and may have an advantage in that they would be told how to approach the selection process ( eg RDF service, interview questions, sport). I know loads of officers that have a high ranking parent served/retired.

In the past, nepotism was probably rife as it was in other state agencies, I have personal experience of trying to get into CIE years ago. I know that the selection process is much fairer these days.

Jo King

dodgydes wrote: »

I certainly think that a serving officer's son/daughter/nephew etc would be encouraged to join the DF and may have an advantage in that they would be told how to approach the selection process ( eg RDF service, interview questions, sport). I know loads of officers that have a high ranking parent served/retired.

In the past, nepotism was probably rife as it was in other state agencies, I have personal experience of trying to get into CIE years ago. I know that the selection process is much fairer these days.

I know some sons of former senior officers whose fathers told them on no account were they to join the army. One told them they would be barred from the house if they enlisted!

dodgydes

There's a huge class distinction between enlisted and officers. Maybe the senior officers didn't want their son to become a "lower class" enlisted soldier.

ZULU9niner

This "Class" divide should be consigned to the trenches of WWI. There should only be one "class" - that of the soldier or warrior class. Yes there is a distinct difference between ranks - that's necessary, but this idea of some bygone Raj mentality should be eradicated with prejudice in my opinion. I cant stand it.

discus

ZULU9niner wrote: »

This "Class" divide should be consigned to the trenches of WWI. There should only be one "class" - that of the soldier or warrior class. Yes there is a distinct difference between ranks - that's necessary, but this idea of some bygone Raj mentality should be eradicated with prejudice in my opinion. I cant stand it.

Whatevs, pleb. Now where's that pink gin I ordered...

Poccington

ZULU9niner wrote: »

This "Class" divide should be consigned to the trenches of WWI. There should only be one "class" - that of the soldier or warrior class. Yes there is a distinct difference between ranks - that's necessary, but this idea of some bygone Raj mentality should be eradicated with prejudice in my opinion. I cant stand it.

Go into any Officer's Mess in any barracks in the country and you'll still see Privates serving Officers their food and drink.

It's ridiculous but I honestly can't see it changing anytime soon.

Delancey

I read somewhere that as the Air Corps pilots are all Officers visiting pilots of other nations military are not permitted in the mess unless they too are commissioned ?

dodgydes

There was a Finnish corporal in the Leb who was in charge of the communication systems. He was a reservist and worked for as a development manager for Nokia in his civvy job.
The irish officers there wouldn't deal with him directly because he was only a corporal, so the Finns immediately promoted him to a captain. Brilliant!

cushtac

Poccington wrote: »

Go into any Officer's Mess in any barracks in the country and you'll still see Privates serving Officers their food and drink.

They only work in the wet mess and it's a seriously cushy number, I've yet to hear of a single barman complain of it.

cushtac

delancey42 wrote: »

I read somewhere that as the Air Corps pilots are all Officers visiting pilots of other nations military are not permitted in the mess unless they too are commissioned ?

Nonsense, anyone can be invited into a mess by a member.

Poccington

cushtac wrote: »

They only work in the wet mess and it's a seriously cushy number, I've yet to hear of a single barman complain of it.

There's more than just bar staff working there.

I don't care if it's a cushy number, it's a waste of bodies at a time when Units are very much understrength.

cushtac

Poccington wrote: »

There's more than just bar staff working there.

Who else is working there? I haven't seen a member of the PDF, with the exception of a cook or barman, working in a mess.

Poccington wrote: »

I don't care if it's a cushy number, it's a waste of bodies at a time when Units are very much understrength.

Units tend not to be crying out for bodies during mess hours.

cushtac

It's also worth pointing out that the barmen are all volunteers and there's also barmen in both the pte's & nco's messes.

Dempo1

Off topic a little and i am sure it will stir a hornets nest!

Its an interesting point the OP makes, i encountered close up "and as a civilian" the workings of the PDF at a golf club owned by the PDF. What i witnessed was nothing short of a cosy cartel. Not just nepotism of the most overt kind but a life style that would make the average civilian most envious. In fact it appeared to me on the surface this particular camp was a Holiday camp and would be better served having a Butlins franchise. Furthermore, i was shocked at the double jobbing going on. During my time there i came across a number of privates who seemed to have the best jobs in the world. They worked three days a week, barely had to lift their hands to scratch themselves whilst doing nixer's right under the roof of their commanding officers who equally seem to spend more time on the golf course than doing their Jobs.

As regards another posters comments about the work in the bars/messes begin voluntary, this is complete bull****, these are full time posts with some members doing these jobs for over a decade, furthermore having spoken to some of the members, they informed me it had been years if not decades since they actually wore an army uniform. I did enjoy however the gossip from the privates about the nonsense that went on in barracks, my eyes were open. I was amused at listening to some poor chaps suffering because of the income levy, not a mention of subsidized housing, Free Medical care, nice pension to name but a few perks of the Job.

This place seem to be run as a private fiefdom and I suspect if the public knew half of what was going on, there would be uproar in particular enormous amounts of public funds spent of fencing out sheep from the golf course. The funny thing that i did observe was the hostility towards the PDF and civilian membership of this golf club, it was not just obvious but in your face.

The only time i ever saw this Barracks doing anything constructive was when the ranks were sent out to help with flooding and heavy snow conditions last winter.

I'm sure those in the PDF will know were i am talking about and indeed a very colorful Colonel who has two sons at officer rank.

cushtac

Dempo1 wrote: »

As regards another posters comments about the work in the bars/messes begin voluntary, this is complete bull****, these are full time posts with some members doing these jobs for over a decade, furthermore having spoken to some of the members, they informed me it had been years if not decades since they actually wore an army uniform.

These positions are voluntary, no one is forced into doing them.

Dempo1 wrote: »

This place seem to be run as a private fiefdom and I suspect if the public knew half of what was going on, there would be uproar in particular enormous amounts of public funds spent of fencing out sheep from the golf course.

The accounts of the DF are there for all to see. If you want to tell the world how much they're supposedly spending on a golf course then go ahead & do so.

Dempo1

cushtac wrote: »

These positions are voluntary, no one is forced into doing them.




The accounts of the DF are there for all to see. If you want to tell the world how much they're supposedly spending on a golf course then go ahead & do so.

Nonsense and more Nonsense

I wonder what the reaction of a commanding officer would be to a NCO refusing to take up riveting Bar/Kitchen Duties?

The Club in question as an average deficit of over €270k but of course the details would not be available as its run as a Private entity, I also forgot to mention Members of the PDF have free membership and by all accounts don't pay green fees, another little tit bit of info that would not be in the public domain. I am not at all sure WTF the PDF are doing owning a Golf Course let alone subsidizing it!

cushtac

Dempo1 wrote: »

Nonsense and more Nonsense

I wonder what the reaction of a commanding officer would be to a NCO refusing to take up riveting Bar/Kitchen Duties?

You wondering about it does not prove your claims, please tell us in what mess the barmen are forced to do the job.

Dempo1 wrote: »

The Club in question as an average deficit of over €270k but of course the details would not be available as its run as a Private entity, I also forgot to mention Members of the PDF have free membership and by all accounts don't pay green fees, another little tit bit of info that would not be in the public domain. I am not at all sure WTF the PDF are doing owning a Golf Course let alone subsidizing it!

If money for this club is coming from the public coffers then there'll be a record of it, so either produce the proof or withdraw the claim. Your 'tit bit' of information about green fees is also nothing more than unsubstantiated rumour.

Dempo1

cushtac wrote: »

You wondering about it does not prove your claims, please tell us in what mess the barmen are forced to do the job.



If money for this club is coming from the public coffers then there'll be a record of it, so either produce the proof or withdraw the claim. Your 'tit bit' of information about green fees is also nothing more than unsubstantiated rumour.

Very Tetchy, I assume your aware of the Club i refer too?

If so, perhaps you could enlighten us all has to how this place is currently funded, Membership fees certainly do not nor did they cover the cost of Fencing out Sheep, one wonders how much such an endeavor cost?

Perhaps a Thread on this waste of public funds might get some objective responses!

cushtac

Dempo1 wrote: »

Very Tetchy, I assume your aware of the Club i refer too?

Nope, never played a game of golf in my life. Do you want to name it here?

Dempo1 wrote: »

If so, perhaps you could enlighten us all has to how this place is currently funded, Membership fees certainly do not nor did they cover the cost of Fencing out Sheep, one wonders how much such an endeavor cost?

I haven't a clue, but as I've already said the amount of money spent by the DF & where it is spent is in the public domain so it should be very easy for you to back up your claims.

Dempo1 wrote: »

Perhaps a Thread on this waste of public funds might get some objective responses!

Off you go, but will you be able to back up your claims with proof this time?

Still waiting for you to name one mess where the barmen are forced to work.

Poccington

cushtac wrote: »

Who else is working there? I haven't seen a member of the PDF, with the exception of a cook or barman, working in a mess.



Units tend not to be crying out for bodies during mess hours.

In my place, there's bodies working there as cleaners/runners. Barmen etc. are all detailed to work there.

Considering the mess opens during the working day, those bodies could certainly be put to better use.


By the way, what the **** is all this golf course talk about? I've never heard of the DF owning or paying for a golf course? As cushtac said, if they are doing it, there'd be proof of it.

So please provide proof that the DF is using public funds as part of this endeavour, or else stop spreading unsubstantiated rumours.

Dempo1

cushtac wrote: »

Nope, never played a game of golf in my life. Do you want to name it here?



I haven't a clue, but as I've already said the amount of money spent by the DF & where it is spent is in the public domain so it should be very easy for you to back up your claims.



Off you go, but will you be able to back up your claims with proof this time?

Still waiting for you to name one mess where the barmen are forced to work.

One assumes your in the PDF and it's not rocket science to work out how many golf clubs the PDF own.

Whilst i admit my knowledge of postings is limited, it was claimed positions in officer messes are voluntary, I find this hard to believe and would suggest such positions are alloted after initial training. I further find it hard to believe an NCO could refuse to do such a job, fair enough they could apply for a transfer but is this not the prerogative of the commanding officer?

You seem to be obsessed with "My Claims", i am not making claims but quoting from first hand experience observing some amusing practices. Your also quite defensive of my legitimate question regarding the appropriateness of the PDF owning a golf club and i might add the perks that go along with such an arrangement. Indeed its president is a Brigadier General and there are a number of senior officers on various committee's.

As regard the infamous fence, this particular club is apparently the oldest in Ireland, it seemed to survive nicely before the army took it upon itself to fence in an entire golf course, i ask a simple question, how can this be justified let alone the fact the land in question is protected under common acreage grazing rights and has public right of way rights but thats for another day.

So i ask the question again, WTF is the PDF doing subsidizing a Golf club.

Let me ask you this simple question? do you think its appropriate? I can just see the reaction if say the Department of Finance suddenly decided to open its own Private Golf club!

Donny5

Poccington wrote: »

By the way, what the **** is all this golf course talk about? I've never heard of the DF owning or paying for a golf course? As cushtac said, if they are doing it, there'd be proof of it.

The Defence Forces don't own a golf club, as far as I know, but the Department of Defence leases land to the Curragh Golf Club, and the President there is the GOC DFTC. It is a private company, though. I don't know anything about funding or military bods working there.

Dempo1

By the way, what the **** is all this golf course talk about? I've never heard of the DF owning or paying for a golf course? As cushtac said, if they are doing it, there'd be proof of it.

For the record, The Curragh Golf Club!

Dempo1

Donny5 wrote: »

The Defence Forces don't own a golf club, as far as I know, but the Department of Defence leases land to the Curragh Golf Club, and the President there is the GOC DFTC. It is a private company, though. I don't know anything about funding or military bods working there.

I respectfully beg to differ, the Club is owned by the PDF, there is a sporting lease applicable to the course but the PDF actively partake in the daily management of the club and its affairs. Not withstanding the CO of the curragh is the president, an officer of commandant rank or above holds the captaincy every two years. I also know for a fact the PDF are continuously required to finance various projects and upgrades. Sure enough these in themselves are legitimate however the scandalous financing of a substantial fencing system around the entire perimeter of the golf course to keep sheep off the course does in my mind raise some legitimate questions. This course has contended with sheep for over a 100 years.

Donny5

The DF doesn't own the land or the club. The land is owned by the DoD and administrated by civilians. The club is a private company. I don't know who owns it. Yes, the GOC DFTC is the President and they alternate between civilian and military Captains. The DF do therefore have a hand in the club's administration, but they don't own it. I'm not saying they don't sink money into it, but they don't own it.

cushtac

Dempo1 wrote: »

One assumes your in the PDF and it's not rocket science to work out how many golf clubs the PDF own.

You assume wrong, I'm not in the PDF.

Dempo1 wrote: »

Whilst i admit my knowledge of postings is limited, it was claimed positions in officer messes are voluntary, I find this hard to believe and would suggest such positions are alloted after initial training. I further find it hard to believe an NCO could refuse to do such a job, fair enough they could apply for a transfer but is this not the prerogative of the commanding officer?

In other words you've no idea how someone gets a job in the mess, what's involved or what they get out of it. Everything you've said is based on your own misguided assumptions.

Dempo1 wrote: »

You seem to be obsessed with "My Claims", i am not making claims but quoting from first hand experience observing some amusing practices. Your also quite defensive of my legitimate question regarding the appropriateness of the PDF owning a golf club and i might add the perks that go along with such an arrangement. Indeed its president is a Brigadier General and there are a number of senior officers on various committee's.

You are making claims, since you've come up with no proof to back up what you've said. I'm not defensive at all, I'm just asking you to back up your waffle. You claim the DF own the club, yet then say its a private company - you can't have it both ways, either it's owned by the DF & funded by them or it's a private entity & funded privately. So which is it?

Dempo1 wrote: »

As regard the infamous fence, this particular club is apparently the oldest in Ireland, it seemed to survive nicely before the army took it upon itself to fence in an entire golf course, i ask a simple question, how can this be justified let alone the fact the land in question is protected under common acreage grazing rights and has public right of way rights but thats for another day.

If it's the oldest club in Ireland then how does the DF now own it?

Dempo1 wrote: »

So i ask the question again, WTF is the PDF doing subsidizing a Golf club.

I'll ask my question again, have you any proof that this is the case?

Dempo1 wrote: »

Let me ask you this simple question? do you think its appropriate? I can just see the reaction if say the Department of Finance suddenly decided to open its own Private Golf club!

I don't think what you claim is correct, so there's no point in asking me if it is appropriate.

Dempo1

Donny5 wrote: »

The DF doesn't own the land or the club. The land is owned by the DoD and administrated by civilians. The club is a private company. I don't know who owns it. Yes, the GOC DFTC is the President and they alternate between civilian and military Captains. The DF do therefore have a hand in the club's administration, but they don't own it. I'm not saying they don't sink money into it, but they don't own it.

They do actually own the course and club house, indeed its proudly stated on the clubs website. In addition to the presidency and captain positions, they also have members of various committee's. Not a thing is approved without the PDF permission. Sadly they also sink inordinate amounts of money in its up keep and daily maintenance, it is this issue that concerns me, nothing else. Various other state bodies have social clubs etc but not on the scale of this entity. What suprised me mainly was this absurd and undoubtidly expensive fencing placed around the golf course, how could such a thing be justified?

Dempo1

cushtac wrote: »

You assume wrong, I'm not in the PDF.



In other words you've no idea how someone gets a job in the mess, what's involved or what they get out of it. Everything you've said is based on your own misguided assumptions.




You are making claims, since you've come up with no proof to back up what you've said. I'm not defensive at all, I'm just asking you to back up your waffle. You claim the DF own the club, yet then say its a private company - you can't have it both ways, either it's owned by the DF & funded by them or it's a private entity & funded privately. So which is it?




If it's the oldest club in Ireland then how does the DF now own it?




I'll ask my question again, have you any proof that this is the case?




I don't think what you claim is correct, so there's no point in asking me if it is appropriate.

As predicted i stirred a bit of a hornets nest, kinda surprised your not in PDF given your reactions. All i can say is i have first hand knowledge of the club and its workings, I've named it and feel free to browse its website.

Off for some Sunday lunch, just glad to have at least started a debate about the PDF involvement in a golf club!

ChunkyLover_53

Oh I've used that Golf Course before...

I ran through it for a short cut on a Night Nav Ex....don't remember a fence. Meh.

PS: If there is a fence its not very good.

cushtac

Dempo1 wrote: »

As predicted i stirred a bit of a hornets nest, kinda surprised your not in PDF given your reactions. All i can say is i have first hand knowledge of the club and its workings, I've named it and feel free to browse its website

As I thought, you're full of crap & can't back up your claims.

Capt Blackadder

Problem?

Dempo1

ChunkyLover_53 wrote: »

Oh I've used that Golf Course before...

I ran through it for a short cut on a Night Nav Ex....don't remember a fence. Meh.

PS: If there is a fence its not very good.

LOL:D Not sure when this photo was taken? the fencing apparently went up late 2009.