WTF - Over 50% of IE Inter-City Passengers Travel Free!!!

ClovenHoof

There I am listening to local radio this morning and someone comes on claiming to be from Irish Rail and recently retired. She then claims that during her time there going on about passengers travelling for free - 50% of IC train loadings on average. Pensioners, staff and family and other freebies for medical and other social welfare reasons. When the radio host said "50% are you joking with us!" - she comes back some trains it is closer to 90% free travel passengers during the winter months.

Can anyone confirm these numbers. They seem incredible to me.

Nevyn

It makes more sense for an eldery person to spend the day riding the rails (if the are fit enough) then for them to be at home shivering cos they can't afford to put the heating on.

ClovenHoof

She also said that pensioners from all other EU states travel free on IE inter-city. This is just insanity to me.

Does this happen in any other EU state?

L1011

I believe its solely NI pensioners, not EU-wide.

flyingsnail

What radio station was this?

I presume the free travel for eu pensioners is the golden trekker scheme which was developed by Fáilte Ireland but I am not sure who funds it. The scheme ends December 31st. Link

Cookie_Monster

That is insane

MYOB wrote: »

I believe its solely NI pensioners, not EU-wide.

was there not a change to that in the last budget for tourism reasons, everyone gets it. Not just EU wither, but US also. Or was it just substantial reductions?
EDIT: flyingsnail has a link for it

Judgement Day

flyingsnail wrote: »

What radio station was this?

I presume the free travel for eu pensioners is the golden trekker scheme which was developed by Fáilte Ireland but I am not sure who funds it. The scheme ends December 31st. Link

How on earth can it already be ending as it's only running a wet weekend? Typical half arsed Irish tourism promotion.

Mits

I can not see any harm in free travel for old age pensioners.

It gives them an incentive to go out and some of them will spend some money when they get to their destinations.

I think it is one of the best perks to retirment.

foggy_lad

ClovenHoof wrote: »

There I am listening to local radio this morning and someone comes on claiming to be from Irish Rail and recently retired. She then claims that during her time there going on about passengers travelling for free - 50% of IC train loadings on average. Pensioners, staff and family and other freebies for medical and other social welfare reasons. When the radio host said "50% are you joking with us!" - she comes back some trains it is closer to 90% free travel passengers during the winter months.

Can anyone confirm these numbers. They seem incredible to me.

I disagree with staff and families getting free travel but they should be entitled to a discount on a limited number of tickets. i also disagree with prisoners being given travel passes to get home, let them walk. also those who have significant numbers of public order offences should be barred from any for of free travel in the state.

All that is left then are pensioners, those on invalidity pensions and those deemed disabled but anyone granted free travel should be barred if found to be engaging in anti-social behaviour.

Oliver1985

Are they actually gonna bring in that new social welfare travel pass?
The mainline trains I have been on the last while especially the rosslare has had a lot of junkies on it :eek:

mickydoomsux

As an IE employee this comes as no surprise to me. We get a printout with the full breakdown of tickets issued during a period and every time it arrives "Social Welfare Day Return" tops the charts with either "Social Welfare Single" or "Day Return" (which is the ones people pay for) being second.

The free passes are handed out willy-nilly. Plus employees don't even have full free travel, we get about 20 one-use free passes and after that we have to pay what are called "Priviledge Fares". Someone with a free-travel pass has unlimited free travel whereas employees don't.

foggy_lad

Oliver1985 wrote: »

Are they actually gonna bring in that new social welfare travel pass?
The mainline trains I have been on the last while especially the rosslare has had a lot of junkies on it :eek:

The problem with any new tickets or passes for free travel is that the junkies will still be "entitled" to them. Until such a time as a law is passed barring the anti-social in society from social welfare benefits such as free travel there will be drunks and junkies on trains and busses.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

As an IE employee this comes as no surprise to me. We get a printout with the full breakdown of tickets issued during a period and every time it arrives "Social Welfare Day Return" tops the charts with either "Social Welfare Single" or "Day Return" (which is the ones people pay for) being second.

The free passes are handed out willy-nilly. Plus employees don't even have full free travel, we get about 20 one-use free passes and after that we have to pay what are called "Priviledge Fares". Someone with a free-travel pass has unlimited free travel whereas employees don't.

No employee gets freebies from work, Do mechanics get free cars? Do bar staff drink themselves to a stupour on free beer? Why should transport employees get something no other employee gets?

Also most of those social welfare returns are only used for a single journey but due to wasteful Irish rail policy most people are given a return ticket when they go to the ticket office.

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

No employee gets freebies from work, Do mechanics get free cars? Do bar staff drink themselves to a stupour on free beer? Why should transport employees get something no other employee gets?

I completely agree with you.

My point is that people with free travel passes get more "benefit in kind", as it were, than actual employees of the company. There's something a bit wrong with that situation.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I completely agree with you.

My point is that people with free travel passes get more "benefit in kind", as it were, than actual employees of the company. There's something a bit wrong with that situation.

I understand the feelings that can be felt by some towards the free travel scheme but many recipients have paid their taxes for years and are then hit with disability or invalidity. There are others who due to their conditions are unable to work.

If i worked for any transport company I would simply be glad of the ability to work and look after kids, climb stairs etc etc and hope that it sees you in good health and pain free well into your old age.

Oliver1985

I understand that these will still get the pass, but there is some amount of fake ones out there too , so it would get rid of some of them!!!:o

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

No employee gets freebies from work, Do mechanics get free cars? Do bar staff drink themselves to a stupour on free beer?

but they do, for instance I get:

free chocolate bars, crisps, sweets, tea, coffee, fizzy drinks, 10c meals, free gym, healthcare, free open bar xmas party and not to mention all the pens I can steal :pac:

plenty of other companies do similar and while it shouldn't really extend to family I don't really see an issue with CIE employees availing of free travel.

Run_to_da_hills

CIE should have hung on to the MK3's and GM's for the pensioners.

Most of them are train spotters in their retirement.

Victor

Mits wrote: »

I can not see any harm in free travel for old age pensioners.

Transport is a scarce resource. Anything that is free will be exploited.

Back in the day, it made sense to give CIE money to carry pass holders for free at off peak times. Capacity existed, demand existed and the two could be met relatively cheaply, providing benefit for pass holder, CIE, the Department of Social Welfare and local TDs. However, Minister Brennan in his wisdom, expanded it to include peak times, when there was no spare capacity and I suspect there was an even larger dysfunction between the amount CIE received and the cost of providing that extra peak capacity from that point on. Providing extra peak capacity is the most expensive capacity to provide.

foggy_lad wrote: »

I disagree with staff and families getting free travel but they should be entitled to a discount on a limited number of tickets.

I don't think there is much harm in providing some benefit to employees and their families, especially off peak. It is useful at time in any business to have off-duty staff around, as eyes and ears, if not hands - if only managers would do it more often.

i also disagree with prisoners being given travel passes to get home, let them walk.

Prisoner release programmes are useful in re-connecting prisoners with their families and communities and are a benefit to to said families and communities. It also makes prison a more tolerable situation for prisoners and staff as it defuses tension and discourages misbehaviour.

Of course, the Prison Service / Probation Service needs to compensate transport companies for such travel warrants.

also those who have significant numbers of public order offences should be barred from any for of free travel in the state.

A different take might be to force them to buy annual passes (cuts down on fare evasion) and if they misbehave further, withdraw the pass (that they have paid for) without a refund.

Victor

I think 50% might be an exaggeration.

Oliver1985 wrote: »

Are they actually gonna bring in that new social welfare travel pass?

Certainly a new DSP ID was talked about today.

foggy_lad wrote: »

No employee gets freebies from work, Do mechanics get free cars? Do bar staff drink themselves to a stupour on free beer? Why should transport employees get something no other employee gets?

I imagine many employees and employees get some benefit in kind from their workplace. The exact tac treatment is another matter - in general if it costs the employer no more than a nominal amount, there is no BIK tax involved.

Do bar staff pay full price if having a pint after work? Do restaurant staff pay full price for meals? Do tradesmen use work vehicles to drive home? Do mechanics make use of "loaners"? Do the employees of accountants or solicitors get free advice?

Also most of those social welfare returns are only used for a single journey but due to wasteful Irish rail policy most people are given a return ticket when they go to the ticket office.

How do these people get back then?

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

I disagree with staff and families getting free travel

Ah gwan outa dat - I'd never have seen the big smoke or visited the GSPRS without the free travel. You were restricted to X number of passes a year though.

J.D. Do you remember the auld fella who used hold up the bar on the Dublin-bound train ? Bluish overcoat, flower in the lapel and a hat. It was a harmless way for him to spend his time.

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

No employee gets freebies from work, Do mechanics get free cars? Do bar staff drink themselves to a stupour on free beer? Why should transport employees get something no other employee gets?

Have a look at this informative thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056097841 and see what freebies employees are getting.

Plenty of mechanics (for example) borrow the diagnostic gear in the evenings. Airline staff traditionally get discounts, Dunnes staff get hefty discounts , I believe that Luas drivers get to bring their trams home at night, apple staff get free products etc etc.

Capt'n Midnight

Victor wrote: »

Transport is a scarce resource. Anything that is free will be exploited.

Back in the day, it made sense to give CIE money to carry pass holders for free at off peak times. Capacity existed, demand existed and the two could be met relatively cheaply, providing benefit for pass holder, CIE, the Department of Social Welfare and local TDs. However, Minister Brennan in his wisdom, expanded it to include peak times,

that needs to be revised ASAP

Cookie_Monster

parsi wrote: »

Have a look at this informative thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056097841 and see what freebies employees are getting.

Plenty of mechanics (for example) borrow the diagnostic gear in the evenings. Airline staff traditionally get discounts, Dunnes staff get hefty discounts , I believe that Luas drivers get to bring their trams home at night, apple staff get free products etc etc.

:pac::pac::pac:

Losty Dublin

Victor wrote: »

Transport is a scarce resource. Anything that is free will be exploited.

Back in the day, it made sense to give CIE money to carry pass holders for free at off peak times. Capacity existed, demand existed and the two could be met relatively cheaply, providing benefit for pass holder, CIE, the Department of Social Welfare and local TDs. However, Minister Brennan in his wisdom, expanded it to include peak times, when there was no spare capacity and I suspect there was an even larger dysfunction between the amount CIE received and the cost of providing that extra peak capacity from that point on. Providing extra peak capacity is the most expensive capacity to provide.

Correct me if I am wrong but was the peak time travel bar on OAP passes only on Dublin Bus and suburban rail services in Dublin and Cork?

flyingsnail

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but was the peak time travel bar on OAP passes only on Dublin Bus and suburban rail services in Dublin and Cork?

I believe it also applied to Bus Eireann city buses in Limerick and Cork

trellheim

As usual the scandal here is that it is not measured properly the abuse of the system. A few small controls would go a long long way, proper ID with a free pass ticket and not allowing pass duplication, not too difficult to set up an IE programe to only allow one pass to be active on a ticket .

Capt'n Midnight

parsi wrote: »

I believe that Luas drivers get to bring their trams home at night

IIRC they are only insured for commuting to and from work, no social or domestic cover.

L1011

foggy_lad wrote: »

No employee gets freebies from work, Do mechanics get free cars? Do bar staff drink themselves to a stupour on free beer? Why should transport employees get something no other employee gets?

Let me know who you work for, so I can avoid it.

I have a 'free' (BIK'ed) car and all the diesel it needs, free mobile, laptop, broadband, and any food I eat out of the office that I can get receipts for.

This is in a very much private sector company.

KC61

trellheim wrote: »

As usual the scandal here is that it is not measured properly the abuse of the system. A few small controls would go a long long way, proper ID with a free pass ticket and not allowing pass duplication, not too difficult to set up an IE programe to only allow one pass to be active on a ticket .

To be fair - IE require pass holders to get a ticket for each trip which is more than either Bus Eireann or Dublin Bus do.

TheChrisD

foggy_lad wrote: »

Also most of those social welfare returns are only used for a single journey but due to wasteful Irish rail policy most people are given a return ticket when they go to the ticket office.

This is quite true actually, several times I've specifically only asked for a single to my destination since I won't be returning from that station, and I still get given a return ticket

corktina

It seems to me that the vast number of free journeys taken mask the real underlying usfullness of the service. By how much would usage fall if these passes were substituted by half fare travel?

I dont think it fair and equitable that fare-paying apseengers are subsidising (in effect) free passholders), trouble is though, what level of service would survive if everyone had to pay?

Incresingly into the future I believe fare paying passngers will be deserting the railway for the motorway and at some point , someone will have to cry "enough"

loyatemu

TheChrisD wrote: »

This is quite true actually, several times I've specifically only asked for a single to my destination since I won't be returning from that station, and I still get given a return ticket

don't IE charge this back to the DSFA? In which case they probably get more back for a return.

Run_to_da_hills

Iarnrod Eireann definitely needs free travel pass holders for the WRC.

How else could they keep the numbers up.

Capt'n Midnight

loyatemu wrote: »

don't IE charge this back to the DSFA? In which case they probably get more back for a return.

In how many of these cases would the cost of a return be the same as a single ?

I can remember when a return was €1 more than a single - do DSFA have rules on this or bulk discount or do they get the return for the same price as a single ?

foggy_lad

TheChrisD wrote: »

This is quite true actually, several times I've specifically only asked for a single to my destination since I won't be returning from that station, and I still get given a return ticket

False accounting by irish rail? they want people thinking they carry more passengers than is the case and then they claim only social welfare pass holders travel when they want to close a line!

corktina wrote: »

It seems to me that the vast number of free journeys taken mask the real underlying usfullness of the service. By how much would usage fall if these passes were substituted by half fare travel?

I dont think it fair and equitable that fare-paying apseengers are subsidising (in effect) free passholders), trouble is though, what level of service would survive if everyone had to pay?

Incresingly into the future I believe fare paying passngers will be deserting the railway for the motorway and at some point , someone will have to cry "enough"

How many trains and busses would be operating without the free travel scheme? Half or maybe more of the employees of Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus would be surplus to requirements and laid off!

TheChrisD

corktina wrote: »

By how much would usage fall if these passes were substituted by half fare travel?

I'd likely stop using the train and go back to taking the 70, if just the trains were turned into half fare.

mickydoomsux

loyatemu wrote: »

don't IE charge this back to the DSFA? In which case they probably get more back for a return.

Nope. We're given a fixed lump sum to cover all DSFA tickets.

Doesn't matter if we sell one or a million.

AlekSmart

We're given a fixed lump sum to cover all DSFA tickets

Anf from another thread we learn that this figure is €77 Million to cover the ENTIRE DSP Free Travel Scheme......:o

Something just ain`t adding up here....77 Mil for all of it....seems a very low figure to me.....or perhaps a little Thai massage has been performed on the figures????

CIE

ClovenHoof wrote: »

There I am listening to local radio this morning and someone comes on claiming to be from Irish Rail and recently retired. She then claims that during her time there going on about passengers travelling for free - 50% of IC train loadings on average. Pensioners, staff and family and other freebies for medical and other social welfare reasons. When the radio host said "50% are you joking with us!" - she comes back some trains it is closer to 90% free travel passengers during the winter months.

Can anyone confirm these numbers. They seem incredible to me.

I've read this whole thread and it all seems like more rumourmongering. Unless this can be confirmed, the bandwidth shouldn't continue to be wasted; JMHO. (Never mind the airwaves being cluttered.)

bazza1

As an IE employee I feel guilty! According to plenty of posters on the commuting threads, I am now corrupt, inefficient , lazy, underworked, overpaid and now spend a lot of my time (with family) travelling the length and breadth of the railway on free trips to keep up the numbers so that IE can keep me doing all the above! I am nearly choking on my champagne and caviar!:D