Ireland now has "no choice" but to increase corp. tax? WTFH?

hatrickpatrick

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1123/breaking24.html

Have we been lied to YET AGAIN by our government?
The phrasing of these statements makes it sound like now that the government have committed to a bailout, they can literally be forced to change the corporation tax rate.

Contrast this with Cowen's stating that it would be a "red line deal breaker".

Austrian finance minister Josef Proell said he expects a discussion on an "economically viable increase" of Ireland's 12.5 percent corporate-tax rate in return for European Union aid.

"Ireland has attracted a lot of companies with extremely low tax rates," Mr Proell said in an e-mailed statement today. "I see room to manoeuvre on this."

Ireland's corporate tax rate has been defended by the Government, and Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan who has said in recent days there is no pressure from other countries to increase it.

However, one of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s economic advisers, economist Peter Bofinger, has said Ireland has no alternative but to increase its corporate tax rate, following its application for a bailout.

So do we now have no legal choice but to accept an increase?
If this is indeed the case, heads should roll like never before. This is one lie too far from our government.

Padman

It will more than likely be a term of the bailout that we raise Corporation tax and lower minimum wage and even reduce exports so we have basically lost our economic independence.This government has gone too far and if we had any sense we would over throw them by force rather than waiting till next year for an election.The country belongs to the EU now and theres nothing we can do about it because our leaders have now willpower.Its not just Cowens fault.Bertie started this long ago and I personally will not be voting for him when he runs for president.Hes just doing it for the money and the fancy house.

Sir Oxman

Nevermind the 12.5 headline rate, it's the 'Double Irish' boon for foreign MNCs that may be covertly hit - and that will result in them all fecking off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement

keithclancy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So do we now have no legal choice but to accept an increase?
If this is indeed the case, heads should roll like never before. This is one lie too far from our government.

You actually believed them .. that the Corporation tax would be 'protected' coming from a government that knew they were getting the boot come January.

Although if Fianna Fail get voted back in next year, i'll personally come back and burn the whole place down !!

bullpost

Can't see this happening in the short to medium term.
The IMF will know that any recovery would be jeopardised by raising corporate tax and this in turn would undermine our ability to repay the loans.

Inquitus

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1123/breaking24.html

Have we been lied to YET AGAIN by our government?
The phrasing of these statements makes it sound like now that the government have committed to a bailout, they can literally be forced to change the corporation tax rate.

Contrast this with Cowen's stating that it would be a "red line deal breaker".



So do we now have no legal choice but to accept an increase?
If this is indeed the case, heads should roll like never before. This is one lie too far from our government.

It's only the Austrians bleating on about it, and they have about as much clout as we do. If we see rhetoric like that from Merkel, Osbourne and Sarkozy then we have problems.

Gloomtastic!

Heard it mentioned somewhere recently that a 15% corp tax rate would help us and keep the moaning minnies at bay. Sounds good to me.

Rabble Rabble

If the double Irish loophole were removed - which it should be - it would mean more revenues for Ireland. The EU is hardly going to penalise Ireland and allow that kind of law to operate elsewhere. And it's only right. 12% I agree with. 0% is nonsense.

Inquitus

gambiaman wrote: »

Nevermind the 12.5 headline rate, it's the 'Double Irish' boon for foreign MNCs that may be covertly hit - and that will result in them all fecking off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement

The Double Irish is dead, the Obama Tax targeted it, which is why a number of MNCs have relocated their Corporate parent companies from Bermuda and the Caymans to Ireland among other places.

Sand

Agreed - In diplomatic speak, the Austrians views are at best "interesting". I know believing the worst of Fianna Fail is second nature to us at this point but I dont think we should take some emailed views of the Austian MoF to be official ECB/IMF/EU or Irish government policy.

The Irish government has stated the corporation tax is a redline, and I believe them on this point: quite simply its absolutely critical to Ireland's economic future and has been so jealously guarded that guarantees have been given by the EU regarding it. I have seen work that argues there is scope for increasing corporation tax in light of the way MNCs use it for accountancy tricks (or at least, that an increase in the tax rate might actually to an increase in revenue being declared here due to dark and murky accountancy tricks), but I think any Irish government would approach any change in the corporate tax regime with all the caution of a colourblind bomb disposal expert.

hatrickpatrick

Inquitus wrote: »

It's only the Austrians bleating on about it, and they have about as much clout as we do. If we see rhetoric like that from Merkel, Osbourne and Sarkozy then we have problems.

...?
It was one of Merkel's advisers who said it!!!

However, one of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s economic advisers, economist Peter Bofinger, has said Ireland has no alternative but to increase its corporate tax rate, following its application for a bailout.

Inquitus

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...?
It was one of Merkel's advisers who said it!!!

He's a nobody.

seamus

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...?
It was one of Merkel's advisers who said it!!!

...who has no political or legal power to force Ireland to do anything.

The EU cannot force us at this stage to increase our corporation tax. They can recommend particular steps to take on the basis that they're lending us money to put into the economy, but if they propose a change in corporation tax and we propose something else with the same impact, we're not obliged to choose the EU's proposal.

sdanseo

He's an Austrian called Josef. Take no notice.

In all seriousness though, we've been told again and again that the corporation tax is sacrosact. Any movement upwards and there will be a massacre, the way things are going.

A Dub in Glasgo

I think it is appalling that the Government has encouraged such tax avoidance from companies. Don't forget, we are all in this together - apart from the companies!

Cavehill Red

Stop believing the lies that the government is telling you.

They've been lying to you for years, to protect their pals in the banks.

Now, before it's too late, it's time to prevent them from destroying this country.

We need to stop the bailout and renege on the banks. That is a matter of supreme national interest.

Otherwise, we're going to be run from Brussels and it won't matter which gombeen you elect next time because decisions about our corporate tax rate and anything else of importance will not be decided here anymore.

STAND UP and FIGHT for your country! Call your TD and DEMAND that they refuse to endorse this government, refuse to endorse the bailout and refuse to give any more of our money to the banks.

If you don't do it now, the time will soon pass and we'll be screwed forever.

hobochris

The EU, esp.. Germany need to be careful how far they push us on this, we could just turn down the bailout, do a U turn and let our banks fail, from their point of view,that would mean massive losses on their books which is what they are trying to avoid by saddling this debt onto us.

Personally I feel someone in EU member state has no business speculating like this outside of official channels of the EU especially after the markets being frenzied so easily.

littlesthobo

Interesting opinion piece on bloomberg today. This guy reckons its inevitable that corp tax will rise eventually and we'd actually be better off defaulting and not accepting a bailout

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-23/bust-is-better-than-a-bailout-for-irish-patient-matthew-lynn.html

seamus

littlesthobo wrote: »

Interesting opinion piece on bloomberg today. This guy reckons its inevitable that corp tax will rise eventually and we'd actually be better off defaulting and not accepting a bailout

He rubbished his own article in one sentence:

Its 12.5 percent rate has been a cornerstone of the country’s economy

The IMF aren't here to give us money and make sweeping indiscriminate cuts.

They have no interest in giving us their money while at the same proposing structural reform which will damage our ability to repay that money. They want their money back, so they're not going to make us do anything to jeopardise that.

I'm not convinced that we couldn't take a 0.5% CT increase on the nose, but there are less risky places to get that money.

About half of our CT comes from foreign companies, and rough estimates gathered from the web suggests that 60% of our exports are from foreign companies based in Ireland and 25% of our employment is provided by them too. Any major increase in CT would see us suffer the equivalent of the housing collapse. Again. Three times over.

We're no longer competitive salary-wise. There are much cheaper countries now providing access to the EU markets. And the availability of english-speaking staff is exploding in eastern europe. CT is one of our last few selling points. The IMF are not going to threaten that if they want their money back.

mohawk

bullpost wrote: »

Can't see this happening in the short to medium term.
The IMF will know that any recovery would be jeopardised by raising corporate tax and this in turn would undermine our ability to repay the loans.

Its not the IMF we have to worry about its the EU they are the ones who want it changed. Its cowardly to demand it. We are a tiny country compared to the likes of Germany. Its crazy that they think that our corporation tax is unfair to them. Wake up EU we are a tiny island in the atlantic!!!

Amhran Nua

Sand wrote: »

I think any Irish government would approach any change in the corporate tax regime with all the caution of a colourblind bomb disposal expert.

You're on a roll with the quotables these days.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

We need to stop the bailout and renege on the banks. That is a matter of supreme national interest.

Eh on a point of interest, if you're going to renege on the banks, wouldn't you be as well to wait till after the bailout to get the maximum benefit. I mean what about that hundred billion, what hundred billion, that sort of thing.

Mister men

Government sells it's people down the river shocker.

force eleven

Everything is on the table, we are no position to dictate what or what is not acceptable anymore. Therefore, corporation tax WILL be increased to a level deemed acceptable by the Franco-German financial alliance. It is all choreographed. Firstly, the outright denial that it will be touched, then there will be statements saying that all will be done to keep it at this level, next up, the admission that it may have to be adjusted. Finally, the acceptance that it must be raised to keep in line with our European partners.

sunshinediver

littlesthobo wrote: »

Interesting opinion piece on bloomberg today. This guy reckons its inevitable that corp tax will rise eventually and we'd actually be better off defaulting and not accepting a bailout

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-23/bust-is-better-than-a-bailout-for-irish-patient-matthew-lynn.html

Yes Ireland probably would be better off, Europe would not.

The more I look into it the more i'm starting to believe that defaulting for Ireland is probably the best option for the country in the long run, The next 5 years would be drastic but after that things would improve. With the bailout option the grandchildren of everyone posting in this thread will still be paying off the interest on these loans. It will be akin to Germany still paying WW2 debts in 2010. I'm not advocating default but it's worth thinking about.

oppenheimer1

force eleven wrote: »

Everything is on the table, we are no position to dictate what or what is not acceptable anymore. Therefore, corporation tax WILL be increased to a level deemed acceptable by the Franco-German financial alliance. It is all choreographed. Firstly, the outright denial that it will be touched, then there will be statements saying that all will be done to keep it at this level, next up, the admission that it may have to be adjusted. Finally, the acceptance that it must be raised to keep in line with our European partners.

They touch the tax rate, they risk alienating the irish population who have to vote on future treaty changes. A forced decision like this would end the political project that is the EU. The treaty of accession of Croatia is due in a year or two, it will never pass if we are forced to hand up the rate and it costs Ireland jobs.

This bluster from the Austrians isn't helping, we have enough problems as it stands. I don't believe the government would give away the CT rate, its low value is important, but also is its stability. Foreign companies spend a lot of money setting up expensive facilities, they will shy away from investing if they think the rate is going to be tinkered with.

Personally, if they force us to up the rate, I will never vote in favour of the Union again and certainly begin to think we should perhaps start to examine our relationship with Europe.

Bucklesman

I have to say, I'm uncomfortable with the notion of Ireland basing its economy on its status as a tax haven.

oppenheimer1

Bucklesman wrote: »

I have to say, I'm uncomfortable with the notion of Ireland basing its economy on its status as a tax haven.

What else has a small island off another island off the west coast of europe got going for it? We have to make it worthwhile for outsiders to invest here.

Amhran Nua

Bucklesman wrote: »

I have to say, I'm uncomfortable with the notion of Ireland basing its economy on its status as a tax haven.

There are about half a million people who would vigorously disagree. And thats just those directly employed due to our CT rate.

Nolanger

Or we could have set up our own multinationals and IT manufacturing companies. Of course once you go through the Irish education system this can't happen as you're supposed to join the public sector or emigrate.

Voltex

The way I see it is that Ireland is actually in a strong negoitating position on the CT rate.
The Germans, French, Italians are all quaking about the stabilirty of the € and Irelands woes are actually causing more risk aversion towards the euro hence the falling euro value against dollar and sterling.
No eurozone economy can be allowed to default as it would immediatly cause a run on all Euro deposits, a complete flight from euro to dollar, sterling, yen et al... and a complete banking collapse obviousley follwoed by a total pan european economic meltdown and its all back to the stone age...as we dont even have the currency-gold link...so paper bills would be totally worthless.
So Ireland can actually negotiate in a strong way with its finger on nuclear option

Dirk Gently

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You're on a roll with the quotables these days.


Eh on a point of interest, if you're going to renege on the banks, wouldn't you be as well to wait till after the bailout to get the maximum benefit. I mean what about that hundred billion, what hundred billion, that sort of thing.

I was thinking the same myself but in fairness any billions from the EU is basically european tax payers money we would be stealing. I'd have no problem drawing down an IMF loan in full then defaulting on it.

It's painfully clear to me that the bailout must be turned down. We need to default on what we owe wreckless banks and gamblers lost themselves. It's an opportunity to build that republic we pretend to be by reforming our financial and political systems. Accepting the bailout copper-fastens the banana republic and without at all being dramatic enslaves people and turns us into battery farmed citizens who's sole point of existence is paying money back to banks and speculators in other countries.

For the good of our european neighbours as well though we must default and collapse the system that seeks to socialise private losses. It's hard to think that in this day and age the Pharaohs can still stand there with whip in hand and force the slaves to build their pyramids.

wylo

clown bag wrote: »

I was thinking the same myself but in fairness any billions from the EU is basically european tax payers money we would be stealing. I'd have no problem drawing down an IMF loan in full then defaulting on it.

It's painfully clear to me that the bailout must be turned down. We need to default on what we owe wreckless banks and gamblers lost themselves. It's an opportunity to build that republic we pretend to be by reforming our financial and political systems. Accepting the bailout copper-fastens the banana republic and without at all being dramatic enslaves people and turns us into battery farmed citizens who's sole point of existence is paying money back to banks and speculators in other countries.

For the good of our european neighbours as well though we must default and collapse the system that seeks to socialise private losses. It's hard to think that in this day and age the Pharaohs can still stand there with whip in hand and force the slaves to build their pyramids.

Is there anything to be said for the fact that the Europeans are digging their own hole at the moment anyway, i.e. giving us a giant lend of money, and there being a genuine possibility they may not only not get their original money back but they may not get the bailout money back either??

My point is, could we not just sit back ,take the bailout , see how things work out, if we default then its their problem too. And thus the collapse of the Euro will happen either way.

edit: sorry just read the Amhran Nua post you were quoting, yea thats kind of what I was getting at too. Just take the money and run.

david75

excellent read

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-23/bust-is-better-than-a-bailout-for-irish-patient-matthew-lynn.html

Dirk Gently

wylo wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for the fact that the Europeans are digging their own hole at the moment anyway, i.e. giving us a giant lend of money, and there being a genuine possibility they may not only not get their original money back but they may not get the bailout money back either??
.

The problem I have with that is our economy is basically going to stagnate long term under the stress of attempting to repay interest, along with other negative conditions attached. 5% and 7% interest were being suggested on primetime tonight. It looks more like the people lending us money want to put Ireland into suspended animation while still getting a trickle of payments back from us. We wont be competitive though and I think this is what's motivating quite a few european leaders more than reviving our economy. I'd imagine a lot of them would take a hit of a few billion each if it meant that Ireland was removed from competing with them for investment. The UK may be the only country with a genuine interest in our economy due to its own self interest.

I've grown to hate the phrase "kicking the can up the road" over the past few weeks but that's all we are doing, along with our european neighbours. The elephant in the room is the financial system itself and the bailouts required to protect it. Portugal, Spain, Italy, they'll all be targeted next regardless. Then only possible reason for accepting a bail out would be to me a mechanism to stall a collapse long enough for us and the other eu members to work out how to orderly wind down the whole system.

jmayo

mohawk wrote: »

Its not the IMF we have to worry about its the EU they are the ones who want it changed. Its cowardly to demand it. We are a tiny country compared to the likes of Germany. Its crazy that they think that our corporation tax is unfair to them. Wake up EU we are a tiny island in the atlantic!!!

Exactly. This increasing of our corpo tax had long been a dream of the French, etc and latterly the British who see companies moving to Ireland rather than pay their higher rates.
At least Sakozy has been smart enough to be keeping his big gob shut on this for the moment.

Some one should tell the Austrians to spend their time checking each other's basements and shut to f**k up.

If they up corpo tax then we lose multinationals that are bringing in necessary jobs and contributing to the tax take.
It would be lunacy for EU to endanger what future revenue streams this country has by scoring on the corpo tax. It would be one big own goal for them in the end.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

They touch the tax rate, they risk alienating the irish population who have to vote on future treaty changes. A forced decision like this would end the political project that is the EU. The treaty of accession of Croatia is due in a year or two, it will never pass if we are forced to hand up the rate and it costs Ireland jobs.

This bluster from the Austrians isn't helping, we have enough problems as it stands. I don't believe the government would give away the CT rate, its low value is important, but also is its stability. Foreign companies spend a lot of money setting up expensive facilities, they will shy away from investing if they think the rate is going to be tinkered with.

Personally, if they force us to up the rate, I will never vote in favour of the Union again and certainly begin to think we should perhaps start to examine our relationship with Europe.

This is getting scary, I am agreeing with YOU.

If they force us to up the rate we are totally finished as our major FDI multinationals will start leaving over the next few years.
As it is we are going to be hobbling around on one leg without a crutch.
We will never have a hope of rising off our knees in the case of upped corpor tax.

Someone should remind our EU masters that when the Irish get really pis**ed with someone they tend to resort to blowing them up.
And if this goes through the lieks of Declan Ganley will be running the country. :eek:
Then again he would be massive improvement on biffo.

If they force this on us then I think we should threaten mutual destruction.
Some of our German and Austrian friends will get a kick out of that as it will remind them of their late fuhrer's last days.

We desperately need them, but they desperately need us to be stable.
My prediciton that the end of the euro is nigh is coming scarily closer.

I can't realistically see this being forced through now, although they may try and get it in the back door down the road in a few years.

It shows how much rests on the heads and the abilities of our negotiation team and what scares me is the track record of the morons in the Dept of Finance and CB.
And yes I know they have people like Honohan and Elderfield but who else ?

Voltex wrote: »

The way I see it is that Ireland is actually in a strong negoitating position on the CT rate.
The Germans, French, Italians are all quaking about the stabilirty of the € and Irelands woes are actually causing more risk aversion towards the euro hence the falling euro value against dollar and sterling.

Very true it is our only ace in the hole.
Mutaul destruction awaits around the corner.

Who would have thought it, a kid form Clara would pose the greatest threat to the grand European project ?
Jean Monnet and Robert Schuman would not be impressed at all.

Voltex wrote: »

No eurozone economy can be allowed to default as it would immediatly cause a run on all Euro deposits, a complete flight from euro to dollar, sterling, yen et al... and a complete banking collapse obviousley follwoed by a total pan european economic meltdown and its all back to the stone age...as we dont even have the currency-gold link...so paper bills would be totally worthless.
So Ireland can actually negotiate in a strong way with its finger on nuclear option

My thoughts exactly.
Anyway being a bit of a pessimist I reckon Portugal are next on the list.
If this contagion reaches Spain it is bye bye Euro.

Dirk Gently

Discussion on accepting the bailout or not on Vincent Browne now actually. He opened with 10 billion a year in interest repayments?

jmayo

clown bag wrote: »

Discussion on accepting the bailout or not on Vincent Browne now actually. He opened with 10 billion a year in interest repayments?

If that is the figure then just tell them alright "thanks, but no thanks".
We will default and our bailer outers banks can go screw themselves and the value of their euro/sterling as well as ours will be worth nothing in a few weeks.

It is a game of MAD like in the old cold war.

Sir Oxman

Somerville and Lucey are saying interest rate between 6.4% and 6.7%
Or did I hear that wrong?

Even at 2% this millstone would be impossible to pay back.

FF must be stopped before finally give this country the deathrattle.

Buford T Justice

According to Bat O'Thief on Prime Time, there is no discussion with the IMF / EU regarding Corporation tax..

How credible he is is another matter.

jc84

its fairly sad that a country has to have such a low corporation tax to attract companies, surely there are other incentives? because if the country does raise it the companies will pull out, HP has already threatened this

cc-offe

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1124/1224284028454.html

Eu to bring in bank levy instead of increasing corporation tax?

Scofflaw

jc84 wrote: »

its fairly sad that a country has to have such a low corporation tax to attract companies, surely there are other incentives? because if the country does raise it the companies will pull out, HP has already threatened this

And again, there's a question of credibility there. HP have been in Ireland since 1976, so clearly there were other factors at work, given our corporation tax rate at that time was 50% - it only fell to 12.5% in 2003.

What HP are saying is a little bit more nuanced than "we'll pull out":

"HP is very clear, if the tax rate increased we would be relooking at our investment in Ireland," the company's manufacturing boss Lionel Alexander told the Irish Independent.

"We welcome assurances from the Government that the rate is safe but if that were to change we would have to review any future investment plans."

Of course they'd have to review them - and of course a higher rate would make Ireland less attractive to them. That's not quite the same thing as a guaranteed pull-out, because a lot would depend on what CT rose to, and what the costs of business here fell to.

However, HP loses absolutely nothing by making threatening noises, since 12.5% is better than 12.6%, and 12.6% is better than 12.7% - and even if none of those would make HP actually pull out, it would still much rather it didn't pay any extra tax.

cordially,
Scofflaw

DeVore

Counterbalance that with a future cost of skilled labour dropping and Ireland still looks like a decent place to do business in.

DeV.

K-9

cc-offe wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1124/1224284028454.html

Eu to bring in bank levy instead of increasing corporation tax?

There has been chat about this long before the IMF bail out. It's quite a good idea in that the money would be used as a fund for any future bail outs, Spain had something similar during their bubble and their banks are drawing that down, hence their banks aren't as badly effected.

The problem with it for us is the horse has bolted. The Banks paid the Government over a €Billion this year as part of the guarantee scheme which is kind of pointless at the minute. Long term, it isn't a bad idea at all.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Perhaps if minimum wage comes down a small increase in CT wouldn't be the end of the world.

The amount of call centre jobs in belfast/armagh is crazy. All cause they can pay the staff 5.90 an hour

Buford T Justice

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Perhaps if minimum wage comes down a small increase in CT wouldn't be the end of the world.

You can't reduce the minimum wage without reducing Social Welfare, as people will stop going back to work as a result imo.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The amount of call centre jobs in belfast/armagh is crazy. All cause they can pay the staff 5.90 an hour

Whats the current corporation tax rate in NI?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Fingers McGee wrote: »

You can't reduce the minimum wage without reducing Social Welfare, as people will stop going back to work as a result imo.

I assume that's going to happen too?

Whats the current corporation tax rate in NI?

I think 28%. could be wrong but its certainly higher than the republic

Buford T Justice

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I assume that's going to happen too?

I think 28%. could be wrong but its certainly higher than the republic

Would it not then be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, as in NI Pay rate & CT rate, VS ROI Pay rate & CT rate?

Voltex

Just on the final bailout sum...thats the amount being made available surely not the sum that we are going to draw down on?
Also why o why cant the goverment rush through emergency legislation that will allow the NPRF buy irish bonds?
We have 30 billion sitting there that is ours....why cant we use that to recap the banks and bring them to the 12% Tier 1 capital that seems to be the magic number?

Anglo...FFS...the reason we didnt let it go was because the bank was systemic...then its because the bond holders wee the same feckers who buy the soverigen debts...so we cant cut off the hand that feeds us...so now the hand that feeds us just bitch slapped us...why cant we just say theres the debt for equity deal take it or leave it?

i know Im probably being very simplistic...but can someone put me right or wrong on those please

K-9

Voltex wrote: »

Just on the final bailout sum...thats the amount being made available surely not the sum that we are going to draw down on?
Also why o why cant the goverment rush through emergency legislation that will allow the NPRF buy irish bonds?
We have 30 billion sitting there that is ours....why cant we use that to recap the banks and bring them to the 12% Tier 1 capital that seems to be the magic number?

Anglo...FFS...the reason we didnt let it go was because the bank was systemic...then its because the bond holders wee the same feckers who buy the soverigen debts...so we cant cut off the hand that feeds us...so now the hand that feeds us just bitch slapped us...why cant we just say theres the debt for equity deal take it or leave it?

i know Im probably being very simplistic...but can someone put me right or wrong on those please

The subordinated bond holders weren't the big problem in Anglo, only a few billion and they are being offered 20% or so on it. Deposits and funding from other Irish banks plus the Irish and European Central bank was the main liabilities.

How it was let drag on was the problem and in particular allowed to send 2 plans to the EU, was embarrassing.