Online trading vs online poker

wylo

Hi all, first time posting here, basically im unemployed , things are looking bleak and am considering getting into trading as I am very technical minded, really want to work for myself, and also have the time to learn.

Please dont get me wrong , im not naive, I know people cant just 'become' traders and must master the craft like anything else.

I will read the sticky again properly for all the answers to the usual starting up questions, but I thought this topic might deserve its own thread.

Im just wondering are there any successful traders here that have alot of experience in online poker?
The reason I ask is because I do myself and am trying to find the differences, I know it might seem funny to some people but if anyone here has alot of experience in poker they'll realise there must be similarities.
Just a few questions :

1. In poker the games have seriously dried up due to rising standards, it is becoming increasingly difficult to be a winner, are there any similarities in this area that can be seen in trading or has it always been consistent in standard?

2. What % of online traders are winners? With regular gambling you would be often talking top 5% or even less, with poker it could be top 15/20%, but only top 5% making really steady solid winnings.

3. Is there much of a difference in the psychological aspects? In poker you can suffer absolutely crazy swings in your bankroll no matter how good you are, and you must have the patience , discipline and confidence to not let it affect your game. Are the swings comparable in trading or do you think it is a little easier on the mind?

4. Did you find any other key aspects that were different that I should know about?

5.Is it similar to poker in that you may have to lose a few bankrolls before you get any good? (unless you have serious natural talent) . For instance would it be naive for me to think i could start off making 5euro a week average if I put my mind to it(obviously including losing weeks and winning weeks etc)?

Thanks for taking the time to read it, I hope theres someone out there with the answers:)

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Jack D Schwager wrote a book called Market Wizards. It's considered a required text for anyone getting started in trading.

One of the 'market wizards' interviewed in the book refers to using a similar strategy to that of a poker player with regards playing 'premium' hands.

As a poker player this makes sense right? You play to see as many cheap flops as possible. If it costs too much to continue you get out but with a premium hand you want to get as much money into the pot as possible.

The use of statistics and things like positive expectancy also carry over to a certain extent.

Money management, mental discipline and emotional control and also 3 things mentionned regularly in the market wizards book.

Im aware of the easy money in poker drying up but due to the great many more participants in financial markets im not sure it's got any easier/difficult to make money recently. I would say it's always difficult! There are sharks and fish. But like in poker, your premium hand will statistically see you return positive results over a long enough time frame.

The good thing about finance vs poker is that you can limit your loss whereas in poker it's either win, split or loss so in theory you should get to play more hands/trades!

On point 5, i remember at least 2 traders interviewed in the book who lost everything 2 or 3 times before they got it nailed, but i would reccommend you learn from their mistakes and try to avoid this.

Best of luck, it's a very long road but potentially profitable.

Joe Schmo

wylo wrote: »

Hi all, first time posting here, basically im unemployed , things are looking bleak and am considering getting into trading as I am very technical minded, really want to work for myself, and also have the time to learn.

Trading is definitely interesting; I did what you did before and blew up my account. I trade as a hobby but I am about a year from the proceeds consistently covering rent.

I never played poker but I imagine trading is like poker if you go up against the top 5% of poker players in the world. In every hand. Every day.

The difference in trading you can take the same position as those top traders that move the market. In poker most people have to lose. Thats the game.

There are different styles of trading, so I assume you are talking of highly leveraged, frequent trading.

I will try to answer your questions:
1. Maybe long-time traders will disagree but in my opinion frequent trading requires adapting to changing markets. What works in one year mightn't the next. In volatile markets there is little logic.

2. Probably 1% of traders last a year.

3. Consistent profits requires discipline, objectivity and enough strength to come back after a down day.

4. See above

5. To make 5 euro a week starting off is doable, but really unlikely. I would tell you that to properly capitalize yourself you need to have an account of 10,000+ but you obviously cant afford to lose that so don't (any money you wire to your broker the first time is as good as dead generally).

If you are serious: start an account with Alpari UK. They let you trade micro lots so you can buy/sell minimum of 1000 which is smaller than most. Trade for one month: the aim is to still have your initial stake at the end of the month. If you achieve that then you are good. Read forums like forexfactory/babypips/elitetrader for a few weeks beforehand and decide what kind of trades you want to do- what fundamentals/technicals/conditions you are looking for and aim for 1 'perfect' trade a day. If a trade doesn't give you the higest chances of being correct stay out of it. Because that is what retail trading is' hours staring at screens waiting for your set-up to form.

Poker is a closed market; you only need to be better than the others in the hand. In my simplistic head I would go to where the worst card players are to be found (casinos?) and I would graft from them. Casinos are entertainment; few people go there to work so if you work those tables you should have an edge.

wylo

Cheers for the replies lads, interesting to get an insight from you perspective.

Joe Schmo wrote: »

2. Probably 1% of traders last a year.

:eek:Thats scary, but I guess alot of people begin trading with the idea of making money instantly instead of spending a year breaking even or whatever.

Joe Schmo wrote: »

5. To make 5 euro a week starting off is doable, but really unlikely. I would tell you that to properly capitalize yourself you need to have an account of 10,000+ but you obviously cant afford to lose that so don't (any money you wire to your broker the first time is as good as dead generally).

If you are serious: start an account with Alpari UK. They let you trade micro lots so you can buy/sell minimum of 1000 which is smaller than most. Trade for one month: the aim is to still have your initial stake at the end of the month. If you achieve that then you are good. Read forums like forexfactory/babypips/elitetrader for a few weeks beforehand and decide what kind of trades you want to do- what fundamentals/technicals/conditions you are looking for and aim for 1 'perfect' trade a day. If a trade doesn't give you the higest chances of being correct stay out of it. Because that is what retail trading is' hours staring at screens waiting for your set-up to form.

What you've written here makes me feel like i may be even more suited to trading than poker. I always prefer the idea of having certain rules and sticking to them , so even when it goes wrong I can say I made the right play if it goes right more often than it goes wrong. This is the same with poker but the problem with poker is that it seems to have alot more variables, plus you must constantly watch your table image too, if you play too tight they'll crucify you, if you play too loose they'll also crucify.

I guess the main reason I would like to move to trading is that in general it seems more like a profession that can be learned and money realistically can be made.
Not to mention, if I gave 6 months to devoting my time to trading, I believe I could put this on a CV over devoting my time to playing poker.

Another thing is, you cant get a job playing poker, so if ever I do become a good trader in a few years time I could apply for jobs. I could be wrong in my assumptions here so please correct me if so.

Thanks again for the advice.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Check out a company called Susquehanna.

They trade options/etf/ futures(i think).

Every year they hold a poker tournament where the prize is either an interview or a trial work placement. They use good understanding of poker knowledge as an identifier for possible hires.

It's all about those percentages!

wylo

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

Check out a company called Susquehanna.

They trade options/etf/ futures(i think).

Every year they hold a poker tournament where the prize is either an interview or a trial work placement. They use good understanding of poker knowledge as an identifier for possible hires.

It's all about those percentages!

lol thats nuts, good thinking though. That said theyd be better off holding a series of small tournaments because even the best players can get knocked out at the very start of a single large tournament, sort of the equivalent of a single trade not going the way a trader planned.
Im going to look it up anyway cheers.