Fintan O'Toole's suggestion on Frontline

roosh

This isn't intended as a debate on the credentials or personality of Fintan O'Toole, but simply a question about a proposition he raised on frontline tonight.

He suggested that a short-term, expert executive be installed to handle negotiations with the IMF/EU, comprised of some Irish experts (can't remember who he named specifically) in the relevant fields. They would simply be charged with handling negotiations in this regard, and would not form the government.

It sounded like a great, but idealistic idea, that wouldn't be very practical. I'm just wondering if it could at all be practical?

Presumably the Dáil would have to be dissolved first, because the incumbent govt. probably wouldn't sanction such a move. It would have to be at a time when there was either no standing govt., or an elected govt. who would sanction the move. The former would be more achievable in the short term.

Anyone any ideas on how it could be made practical?

jdooley28

Irish experts? where have they been the last 3 years

Sardonicat

Mary robinson was a name that he metioned. The question is, who appoints these experts? I like his idea of the people being offered alternative methods of dealing with the crisis and voting for the one they want via referendum.

headmelter

jdooley28 wrote: »

Irish experts? where have they been the last 3 years

More like 10 years.

gizmo555

Sardonicat wrote: »

Mary robinson was a name that he metioned. The question is, who appoints these experts?

Mary Robinson is yet another lawyer, a profession of which we have far too many in government and politics as it is.

oppenheimer1

mangaroosh wrote: »

This isn't intended as a debate on the credentials or personality of Fintan O'Toole, but simply a question about a proposition he raised on frontline tonight.

He suggested that a short-term, expert executive be installed to handle negotiations with the IMF/EU, comprised of some Irish experts (can't remember who he named specifically) in the relevant fields. They would simply be charged with handling negotiations in this regard, and would not form the government.

It sounded like a great, but idealistic idea, that wouldn't be very practical. I'm just wondering if it could at all be practical?

Presumably the Dáil would have to be dissolved first, because the incumbent govt. probably wouldn't sanction such a move. It would have to be at a time when there was either no standing govt., or an elected govt. who would sanction the move. The former would be more achievable in the short term.

Anyone any ideas on how it could be made practical?

Whats wrong with the central bank, the regulator and the department of finance handling the negotiations?

O'Toole is a know-it-all clown anyway.

Bob_Latchford

This urgency to get agreement & budget in place is unneeded. This Irish people will be paying the bill, let the Irish people speak and take things from there

Sardonicat

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Whats wrong with the central bank, the regulator and the department of finance handling the negotiations?

O'Toole is a know-it-all clown anyway.

Eh, didn't the DoF lie to the minister prior to the '08 bail out?

theghost

Sardonicat wrote: »

Mary robinson was a name that he metioned. The question is, who appoints these experts? I like his idea of the people being offered alternative methods of dealing with the crisis and voting for the one they want via referendum.

Please...not another bloody referendum. I don't think I could stand it.

On a practical note, by the time the experts are decided on, then come up with alternative methods for dealing with the crisis, then the time between calling a referendum and actually voting, the IMF will have left the country to its own devices

Sand

The government should allegedly have these expert advisers already - I know what hes getting at: the government being appointed experts of administration/planning in their fields (Education, Health, Fiscal...etc) with the elected Dail providing accountability to the people. Its something Id like to see in future - Ministers should not be able to hold seats in the Dail, which would introduce ensure populists wouldnt be parachuted in to jobs they are not qualified for. But its not something thats going to be thrown together in a couple of days.

I actually thought his second idea was much, much more interesting and relevant. Hes apparently going to post up list of 10 electoral/constitutional reforms and ask people to subscribe to the list - promising that they will not vote for a candidate that does not publically agree to implement those reforms after the next election.

Assuming the reforms are sensible and attract widespread subscription, it will push politicians to agree to implement those reforms so as not to lose votes.

Whats wrong with the central bank, the regulator and the department of finance handling the negotiations?

The DoF is incompetent and is part of the problem. The same team that presided over the bubble, the foolish bank guarantee, NAMA and the repeated denials of reality arent suddenly going to become a top class negotiating team.

gizmo555

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

O'Toole is a know-it-all clown anyway.

+1

He was asked recently on Matt Cooper why if he feels so strongly about the issues, he doesn't stand for election himself. His answer was to the effect that he felt he contributed more by his writing and journalism. Well, not with this rubbish anyway Fintan!

Sardonicat

theghost wrote: »

Please...not another bloody referendum. I don't think I could stand it.

On a practical note, by the time the experts are decided on, then come up with alternative methods for dealing with the crisis, then the time between calling a referendum and actually voting, the IMF will have left the country to its own devices

O'Toole suggested that FF/Greens propose one method and FG/Labour another and that these two be brought to the people to decide. I agree it's way too late now but I think he raised an important issue regarding a real democratic process.

We are getting nothing but secrecy and lies.

Darlughda

jdooley28 wrote: »

Irish experts? where have they been the last 3 years

David McWilliams would fit that role well.

Holybejaysus

gizmo555 wrote: »

Mary Robinson is yet another lawyer, a profession of which we have far too many in government and politics as it is.

That is because lawyers tend to have a good grasp of the law, and rules and regulations in general. As with everything, there are good and bad lawyers. Some have morals, others are parasites.
I would have no problem with Mary Robinson, she has distinguished herself on the international stage. The last thing we need is some Jackie Healy Rae gombeen types trying to negotiate on our behalf.

LookingFor

Over the dinner table this evening I jokingly suggested we should bring back Mary Robinson as supreme dictator.

So I guess I have to row in behind this suggestion now :P

Sand

Sardonicat wrote: »

O'Toole suggested that FF/Greens propose one method and FG/Labour another and that these two be brought to the people to decide. I agree it's way too late now but I think he raised an important issue regarding a real democratic process.

We are getting nothing but secrecy and lies.

Referendums are without a doubt the worst way to decide the answer to a complex and technical problem. Especially with the sullen rage the Irish people are in.

ntlbell

jdooley28 wrote: »

Irish experts? where have they been the last 3 years

Morgon Kelly? David McWilliams? George Lee et al?

You know, the gang that were told to kill themselves for talking down the economy, there's plenty of experts, they're just not in goverment.

Sardonicat

would you not like to see, in black and white, what the FG/labour alternative is and have a say in which method is adopted. Basically, it would be the same as voting on a manifesto, which we do for a general election anyway...oh, wait a minute, this is Ireland; we go gombeen, which is a big part in why we are in this mess now.

Liam Byrne

The problem with Ireland is that there would be no transparency as to who CHOSE these "experts".

Ahern's legacy was the self-admitted corruption (nepotism) of appointing his "friends".......Alan Dukes was viewed as a neutral expert appointed in order to represent the country in Anglo and promptly told a real public representative (Shane Ross) that Anglo was "none of his business".

Now, if we could get a neutral panel then Fintan might be on to something.

Yitzhak Rabin

I thought a more sensible and slightly better chance of working came from the audience.

I think the jist of it was for the parties to stop b*tching for one moment. For the four main parties to get together, appoint an panel of experts to advise them, and get the most competent team to go and deal with the IMF. These decisions are far and above party politics, we need for a group of people to represent Ireland, and not their respective parties, and get the best and most equitable deal we can.

Unfortunately, it will never happen...

So I think the next best thing is an election before the budget.

roosh

theghost wrote: »

Please...not another bloody referendum. I don't think I could stand it.

On a practical note, by the time the experts are decided on, then come up with alternative methods for dealing with the crisis, then the time between calling a referendum and actually voting, the IMF will have left the country to its own devices

Would it? Would Ireland's banking system collapsing not be detrimental to the Eurozone?

Liam Byrne

Dempo1 wrote: »

That FF minister always seems to end up being the whipping boy when in essence he has and had little to do with government economic policy.

So he didn't vote in favour of NAMA & Anglo or any other Government decisions, then ?

roosh

Sardonicat wrote: »

The question is, who appoints these experts?

presumably it would have to be the president

roosh

yekahs wrote: »

I thought a more sensible and slightly better chance of working came from the audience.

I think the jist of it was for the parties to stop b*tching for one moment. For the four main parties to get together, appoint an panel of experts to advise them, and get the most competent team to go and deal with the IMF. These decisions are far and above party politics, we need for a group of people to represent Ireland, and not their respective parties, and get the best and most equitable deal we can.

Unfortunately, it will never happen...

So I think the next best thing is an election before the budget.

that was the better idea alright, the only issue, and unfortunately it would be a big one, is that the parties probably won't sit down together and talk. FG & Labour pretty much know they are in govt. soon, and they would probably be better off allowing FF to pass the budget, while feigning opposition to it, and none of the parties would admit incompetency by submitting to a panel of experts. Also, there is unfortunately a dearth of leadership calling for all parties to sit down together, and FG/Labour haven't shown - despite Bruton's comments tonight - that they are in talks about a potential alternative budget.

I think it would require the Dáil to be dissolved first, because no political party would be likely to submit to the experts, and a new govt. wouldn't be formed in time. The president would have to appoint the experts, surely this would be possible.

I think an election before the budget is probably the best idea as well, becuase even though the budget might be pretty similar to what FF would put through, although Bruton argues it could be materially different, if we wait til after the Budget all accountability goes out the window - as it already has - because FG & Labour can simply blame any shortcomings on the FF budget. They will of course blame everything on them anyway, and rightly so, but at least if they are forced to provide a budget, it might restore some level (if only miniscule) of accountability.

workingstudent

i only watched some of it but just caught his comment on the possability/likelyhood of general election.... "its like arguing over what condom to use AFTER you get pregnant"..... it wont make much of a difference whether ff/fg are in power there aint much either can do this country is so f***ed....

Sir Oxman

Sand wrote: »

The government should allegedly have these expert advisers already - I know what hes getting at: the government being appointed experts of administration/planning in their fields (Education, Health, Fiscal...etc) with the elected Dail providing accountability to the people. Its something Id like to see in future - Ministers should not be able to hold seats in the Dail, which would introduce ensure populists wouldnt be parachuted in to jobs they are not qualified for. But its not something thats going to be thrown together in a couple of days.

I actually thought his second idea was much, much more interesting and relevant. Hes apparently going to post up list of 10 electoral/constitutional reforms and ask people to subscribe to the list - promising that they will not vote for a candidate that does not publically agree to implement those reforms after the next election.

Assuming the reforms are sensible and attract widespread subscription, it will push politicians to agree to implement those reforms so as not to lose votes.



The DoF is incompetent and is part of the problem. The same team that presided over the bubble, the foolish bank guarantee, NAMA and the repeated denials of reality arent suddenly going to become a top class negotiating team.

Fully agree.
O'Toole is in the position whereby he can keep this at the top of the public agenda, print, social media, tv, radio - then it is up to the electorate to run with this idea. It should be pushed and pushed and not let slip off the radar.

the_syco

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Whats wrong with the central bank, the regulator and the department of finance handling the negotiations?

It's the regulators lack of regulations that has gotten us into this mess...

P. Breathnach

Sardonicat wrote: »

Eh, didn't the DoF lie to the minister prior to the '08 bail out?

No.

Mr Trade In

Will they do this service free of charge or is this the first Quango of the new era.

meglome

Sand wrote: »

Referendums are without a doubt the worst way to decide the answer to a complex and technical problem. Especially with the sullen rage the Irish people are in.

Just posted much the same thing over in Politics. Mad stuff to get people to vote on a complex budget, especially if the Lisbon debate is anything to go by.

galway2007

Sardonicat wrote: »

Mary robinson was a name that he metioned. The question is, who appoints these experts? I like his idea of the people being offered alternative methods of dealing with the crisis and voting for the one they want via referendum.

what has mary robinson every done for this country?

up for anything

mangaroosh wrote: »

He suggested that a short-term, expert executive be installed to handle negotiations with the IMF/EU

It wouldn't be worth their while. There is probably little or nothing left to put in their back pockets while handling the negotiations.

MonkieSocks

This morning's Irish Times

The people must act or we will remain irrelevant.


Before an election, a civic movement has to create a critical mass around the idea of radical political reform

HAVING AN election after agreeing a four-year deal that will shape all key decisions is like debating which brand of condom to buy after you’ve become pregnant. It is a parody of democratic choice. Popular sovereignty has almost no meaning in Ireland right now. Its restoration is the precondition for a meaningful election.

We need a non-party technical administration to hold the fort while the people have their say on the four-year plan and on radical reform of our political system. Within that space, we need to make a collective decision on the International Monetary Fund-European Union deal.

The primary goal of the IMF-EU package to which any new government will be committed is not to stop Ireland spiralling downwards into economic depression. It is to ensure that Irish citizens cough up yet more money for the banks.

The process of converting bank debt into national debt is to be completed. Instead of the banks borrowing money from the European Central Bank at one per cent interest to fund their operations, the State (you and me) will borrow it for them at perhaps five per cent.

....

What matters most is that we cease to be an invisible people. That our government is irrelevant is their fault.

That the people are irrelevant is ours.

Sovereignty belongs, not to the State, or the government, but to the people. We have outsourced it for too long to an incompetent, amoral and self-serving elite. Now we face the starkest of choices: use it or lose it.

[MOD]Copyright applies even in politics.[/MOD]

sunshinediver

galway2007 wrote: »

what has mary robinson every done for this country?

Are you serious? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just young.

She represented us professionally, stately and with dignity on the world stage. She has continusously been outspoken against injustice and inequality not just in Ireland but on a world stage which has gained her international recognition and respect. You can be certain she would do what she believes is best for the Irish people.

sunshinediver

up for anything wrote: »

It wouldn't be worth their while. There is probably little or nothing left to put in their back pockets while handling the negotiations.

If you asked him David McWilliams would probably do it for free as would a lot of other individuals. For a lot of people the future of Ireland matters more than getting paid in the short term.

COYW

sunshinediver wrote: »

If you asked him David McWilliams would probably do it for free as would a lot of other individuals. For a lot of people the future of Ireland matters more than getting paid in the short term.

No one would undertake a job like that for free. The sheer stress of having of having to deal with the sensationalist media and public in Ireland wouldnt make it worth your while.

The only person worth listening to on that programme last night was the young german lad who said that we need to start looking at solutions rather than moaning about the problems.

andrewdeerpark

Darlughda wrote: »

David McWilliams would fit that role well.

No thanks the looney economist who when chewing garlic with Brian Lenihan & gave birth to the government blanket bank guarantee that ruined the country.

He is hiding from that idea in all his articles.

All these ideas of expert panels running the country are sickening; bad and all as things are we still have democratically elected people in charge, some people here seem to want a dictatorship. Another balmy idea from Fintan.

sunshinediver

COYW wrote: »

No one would undertake a job like that for free. The sheer stress of having of having to deal with the sensationalist media and public in Ireland wouldnt make it worth your while.

The only person worth listening to on that programme last night was the young german lad who said that we need to start looking at solutions rather than moaning about the problems.

That might surprise you, At this stage I think the public would prefer Fr. Ted negotiating with the IMF, he couldn't get us any worse a deal.

Agreed we need solutions not moaning, However our fate is not entirely sealed yet, However once the budget is passed and the bailout is signed there's no turning back, we will effectively owe european banks upwards of 150 billion. Do you really trust Fianna Fail to negotiatate a good deal on our behalf? Apparently (if it is to be believed) we have funding until next July so there is time.

Fat_Fingers

sunshinediver wrote: »

Are you serious? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just young.

She represented us professionally, stately and with dignity on the world stage. She has continusously been outspoken against injustice and inequality not just in Ireland but on a world stage which has gained her international recognition and respect. You can be certain she would do what she believes is best for the Irish people.

Also as the United Nations High Commissioner on Human Rights, Robinson presided over the notorious anti-Semitic Durban Conference.

Donal Og O Baelach

Sand wrote: »

I actually thought his second idea was much, much more interesting and relevant. Hes apparently going to post up list of 10 electoral/constitutional reforms and ask people to subscribe to the list - promising that they will not vote for a candidate that does not publically agree to implement those reforms after the next election.

Assuming the reforms are sensible and attract widespread subscription, it will push politicians to agree to implement those reforms so as not to lose votes.

And, of course, if they publicly agree (or dare I say promise) to do it before the election, we can be sure that...

Godge

It sounds to me that Fintan O'Toole wants to replace the Golden Circle of FF/Anglo bankers/Galway tent developers/cute hoor councillors/social partners/trade unions with his own golden circle of do-gooders that agrees with him and his policies.

Why would we swap one crowd of unelected golden circle gombeens for another????

Sleepy

COYW wrote: »

No one would undertake a job like that for free. The sheer stress of having of having to deal with the sensationalist media and public in Ireland wouldnt make it worth your while.

Michael O' Leary went on the record on the Right Hook programme on Newstalk last week to state that given the opporunity he'd give 5 years of his time for free to sort out our Health system.

Like him or loathe him, his negotiation skills aren't really up for debate. Negotiating down airport charges has been one of the key reasons Ryanair have become the airline giant they are.

Arthur Scargill

I vote for Michael O'Leary , Mary Robinson , Bill Cullen , JP McManus and Dermot Desmond. Flush all the cabinet muppets down the toilet and let's start again.

Bits_n_Bobs

FoT was lame last night, his suggestion of a negotiating team containing Mary Robinson was madness. No doubt she has lots of knowledge on inequality, justice etc etc but what financial/economic experience has she???

I do however wonder how the Dept of Finance are allowed near the IMF lads...should be Holohan and Elderfield only, with the DoF locked up in a small room with Sinn Fein where neither could do any harm. With a bit of luck the DoF lads would get a good beating from the charmers in SF...

Also surely he knows his 10 demands to change the political culture and system and can just post them straight up on his website immediately?? Or is he going to spend the next two days dreaming them up and then post them up on his site? Course FoT being terribly bright, two days to dream these up is probably quite easy for him.

It would be interesting to let Richard Bruton form part of the negotiating team and I am kind of surprised no-one has mentioned it. He is an expert on these matters and it would allow some level of consensus to possibly emerge.

P. Breathnach

Sleepy wrote: »

Michael O' Leary went on the record on the Right Hook programme on Newstalk last week to state that given the opporunity he'd give 5 years of his time for free to sort out our Health system.

Like him or loathe him, his negotiation skills aren't really up for debate. Negotiating down airport charges has been one of the key reasons Ryanair have become the airline giant they are.

I agree that Michael O'Leary's negotiating skills are not up for debate: he is a bully.

Fat_Fingers

Arthur Scargill wrote: »

I vote for Michael O'Leary , Mary Robinson , Bill Cullen , JP McManus and Dermot Desmond. Flush all the cabinet muppets down the toilet and let's start again.

No to Mary Robinson , don’t need another lawyer career politician who never worked outside of politics.

Eh, on the point of principles i vote no for JP McManus and Dermot Desmond. We don’t need tax exiles telling us from Geneva or Gibraltar what to do. That right/privilege should be only for people paying taxes in this state.

optogirl

gizmo555 wrote: »

+1

He was asked recently on Matt Cooper why if he feels so strongly about the issues, he doesn't stand for election himself. His answer was to the effect that he felt he contributed more by his writing and journalism. Well, not with this rubbish anyway Fintan!

So he should become a politician in an institution he loathes because he is smarter than most of the clowns in there? he is about the best commentator this country has and I was delighted to see him sticking it to them on The Fronline last night. He is a journalist and doesn't want to be a politician - I mean, what right minded person would?

optogirl

Godge wrote: »

It sounds to me that Fintan O'Toole wants to replace the Golden Circle of FF/Anglo bankers/Galway tent developers/cute hoor councillors/social partners/trade unions with his own golden circle of do-gooders that agrees with him and his policies.

Why would we swap one crowd of unelected golden circle gombeens for another????

Because one of these groups have one priority - making themselves rich. The other has an ideal of trying to create a just and equal society. When will people accept that capitalism DIDNT WORK. The banks failed - Let them die.

Bill2673

Sand wrote: »

The government should allegedly have these expert advisers already - I know what hes getting at: the government being appointed experts of administration/planning in their fields (Education, Health, Fiscal...etc) with the elected Dail providing accountability to the people. Its something Id like to see in future - Ministers should not be able to hold seats in the Dail, which would introduce ensure populists wouldnt be parachuted in to jobs they are not qualified for. But its not something thats going to be thrown together in a couple of days.

I actually thought his second idea was much, much more interesting and relevant. Hes apparently going to post up list of 10 electoral/constitutional reforms and ask people to subscribe to the list - promising that they will not vote for a candidate that does not publically agree to implement those reforms after the next election.

Assuming the reforms are sensible and attract widespread subscription, it will push politicians to agree to implement those reforms so as not to lose votes.



The DoF is incompetent and is part of the problem. The same team that presided over the bubble, the foolish bank guarantee, NAMA and the repeated denials of reality arent suddenly going to become a top class negotiating team.

Good post. Worth referencing this with Dermot desmonds article in the irish Times yesterday.

gizmo555

optogirl wrote: »

So he should become a politician in an institution he loathes because he is smarter than most of the clowns in there? he is about the best commentator this country has and I was delighted to see him sticking it to them on The Fronline last night. He is a journalist and doesn't want to be a politician - I mean, what right minded person would?

He's free to hold the view that his journalism is more constructive and helpful than being politically active himself. I'm free to disagree with him that last night's contribution on "Frontline" was any help at all.

I mean seriously, a temporary technical government of experts to deal with grave financial and economic problems and of the three names he comes up with, one is Mary Robinson? Whatever her other talents and accomplishments she has no financial, economic, or managerial experience or qualifications.

Fat_Fingers

optogirl wrote: »

Because one of these groups have one priority - making themselves rich. The other has an ideal of trying to create a just and equal society. When will people accept that capitalism DIDNT WORK. The banks failed - Let them die.

Im not a big fan of Fintan O'Toole. Anyone can be like Fintan O'Toole and follow the consensus: be for the poor and against the rich. He’s typical armchair socialist talking from one side of the mouth from his house in the leafy suburbs of Dublin and or his second home in Clare.