Disobedient pup

PB27

I have an 8month old cocker spaniel and he is very good most of the time, we love him to bits and he gets the best of everything.
The only problem that we have with him is that when I give him his fav treats (pig ears, 8in1 or bone) is that he growls and snarls when I go near him and gets very protective and thinks im going to take it off him and runs and hides. I know this is bad behaviour and take the treat from him, give him a slap and put him outside, once he snapped at me. I do not want this to continue.

Also he is very bad at the call back. Advise on this would be good as well.

I would like some feedback on how is the best way to deal with this.

Thanks in advance and for reading

Pb27

EGAR

Congratulation, you have taught your puppy that he must defend his food because he gets slapped over it. TBH, I wouldn't come back to you either if you slapped me .

There are several ways of dealing with resource guarding/food aggression, none of which are a quick fix. You must remember that fighting fire with fire will not work. Try a swap, offer the dog other treats and praise him when he relinquishes his treat in swap for another. This does only work with praise and trust. Any shouting/hitting etc will make it worse.

Alot of the above goes for recall. Give him a treat when he come back to you, even if it takes ages, do not lose your cool. Praise him with a high-pitched voice, give him a treat and pet him. Make it hit or miss for him by not giving him a treat each time but alway praise and petting.

IvySlayer

EGAR wrote: »

Congratulation, you have taught your puppy that he must defend his food because he gets slapped over it. TBH, I wouldn't come back to you either if you slapped me .

There are several ways of dealing with resource guarding/food aggression, none of which are a quick fix. You must remember that fighting fire with fire will not work. Try a swap, offer the dog other treats and praise him when he relinquishes his treat in swap for another. This does only work with praise and trust. Any shouting/hitting etc will make it worse.

Alot of the above goes for recall. Give him a treat when he come back to you, even if it takes ages, do not lose your cool. Praise him with a high-pitched voice, give him a treat and pet him. Make it hit or miss for him by not giving him a treat each time but alway praise and petting.

If my pup dared to growl at me over food, he'd be put outside. Tough love is needed. I am the boss. I give him a treat, I can take it away. No arguing. I will not tolerate any aggression. Those are the rules.

OP, try not to slap him. Don't show fear. He's 8 months now, he's going through the teen stage! Be patient, but firm. Whatever method you choose, slapping won't work.

cocker5

PB27 wrote: »

I have an 8month old cocker spaniel and he is very good most of the time, we love him to bits and he gets the best of everything.
The only problem that we have with him is that when I give him his fav treats (pig ears, 8in1 or bone) is that he growls and snarls when I go near him and gets very protective and thinks im going to take it off him and runs and hides. I know this is bad behaviour and take the treat from him, give him a slap and put him outside, once he snapped at me. I do not want this to continue.

Also he is very bad at the call back. Advise on this would be good as well.

I would like some feedback on how is the best way to deal with this.

Thanks in advance and for reading

Pb27

As the other poster has said.. you are now teaching your dog to be food possessive and hand shy with food....you should NEVER slap a dog.... of course he is gonna run and hide with his food...and growls etc he is afrad of being slapped..... NEVER do this again or it will lead to serious problems going forward...

Your dog is only 8 months, so you have plenty of time to train him.. but you a right to start now... i would start by giving him his pigs ear say in the kitchen when you are there with him... after a few mins... walk over to him and say ahhh ahhh and try to take it off him.... if he growls... say a VERY loud and stern NO! and go to take it again.... then when he lets you take it without growling then give him another small treat., say a small bit of cheese...then after a few mins praise him and give it back to him etc..... your dog needs to learn that food isnt scare and they he should have no fear... you ned to do this over and over again and after tme he will learn that its ok to let someone take his food... as he will get it back etc...

also when you feed him, do he eat the bowl of food in one go??

When our cocker was a pup while he ate we used to take up his bowl, after a few mins and then give it back praising him etc...

This is all a learned process, by slapping your dog you are making him agressive and fearful.... plaese dont go down this road, or you dog will develope other serious issues....

cocker5

Also.... i meant to say on the call back.. my cocker wasnt great at this as a puppy... we did try alot of techniques but he still had his own ideas...now at 5 years old he is much better at recall...

when training cockers, they are very sniffing and smell orientated... therefore they are not always driven by food or reward.... but here's what i would suggest... bring him out somewhere safe where you can let him off the lead.. bring his favourite treat.. and i dont mean a doggie treat i mean something like sausages or cheese.. something he cannot resist etc... then EVERY TIME he comes back.... give him his treat and rub his head and put your hand on his collar... praise him and then let him go again.. etc ... do this over and over again... our cocker wouldnt come back when he was a pup and he didnt want to be put back on the lead etc... so after 18 months of showing him evertime he comes back doesnt always mean his back on the lead etc... he's much better at coming back now...

if you havent already you should def neuter your dog... will help with recall etc..

Bes of luck.... cocker are great dogs, very affectionate and fab family pets... please dont slap your dog , you are only teaching him negative behaviour...

he doesnt speak english and you dont speak dog... so time, training and consistency is the only way a dog will learn... not through fear or slapping of any kind

Cherry Blossom

Hi there, I have a Westie in a house with 4 small kids so it's very important that she isn't food possessive. At feeding time I call her and tell her to sit and then wait till I put her food bowl down. I'll then offer her a treat and tell her to sit then take the bowl from her and give it back. A few weeks ago it got to the stage where she would just sit and wait if I was in the room untill she was told to eat. Now if I aproach her she automatically moves away from her food and sits. This past week I've started letting the kids put her food out (under supervision) using the same method and it's working great.

Start with her regular food first and when you have this down completely you can start to do the same with the tastier, more highly prized things.

PB27

Hi all,

Thanks for the advise, I guess I was using a out dated form of training, no more slapping.

I will try a few of the methods that you's have suggested and let you know how I get on.

Thanks again

PB27

kaiser sauze

When he growls like this you lift him away from his dish and put him outside.

You go back an half hour later with his bowl of food and try again, if he growls again you lift him outside again and leave it several hours before feeding again. You can try the half hour trick again here, but the second time round you need to give him something.

This has always worked for me, every dog we have ever had goes through this until they no longer growl at any human who is near them. With kids around this is important. (They still growl at other dogs though )

Wolfe Tone

If you do decide to slap the dog, slap the underside of his jaw so he wont bite you.

I would disagree with some of the above posters, I believe that a slap is sometimes necessary.

cocker5

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

If you do decide to slap the dog, slap the underside of his jaw so he wont bite you.

I would disagree with some of the above posters, I believe that a slap is sometimes necessary.

Cannot actually believe what i am reading!! :eek:
maybe someone should slap you on the underside of your jaw when you step out of line.... i just hope to god you dont own a dog and if you do... poor dog..

this is an 8 months old puppy for gods sake... effective training if the only way forward.. slapping the dog will create fear aggression and the dog will show more aggessive behaviour over time.. VOILENCE is never the answer... as the OP said he has already slapped the dog and he is still growling... hence this method doenst work. :mad: only encourges the dog to grwol.. as it his only defence method.

OP please disgread this advice... a resposible and loving dog owner would NEVER give such sh*te advice.... qualified dog trainers would NEVER give this advice....

Wisco

Violence begets violence. End of.

Hitting/slapping will merely make your dog fearful of you and you may get fear aggression as well as aggression over food.
As for getting a good recall, as the other posters said, work on rewarding EVERY time the dog comes to you, then as he gets better, give your treats intermittently so he won't know if the treat is coming. High pitched 'good dog! what a great puppy!' etc in a happy voice is important too. Also, you need to reward even if the dog has come to you right after rolling in a pile of cow muck (for example)- he won't realize you're punishing him for rolling in something smelly, he'll think you're punishing him for coming to you.
Good luck. And if you're really having trouble, I suggest you contact an accredited behaviourist or member of the APDT (association of pet dog trainers)- unfortunately a lot of 'trainers' who advertise in local papers, etc, don't really know their stuff.

Graces7

Why would anyone even think of taking food from a dog? Gobsmacked here at some of these posts.

Really, the utmost in teasing and in confusing. Tormenting them appallingly.

The only time we would even touch food dog has been given i s if there is danger.

But then we would not use food treats to train anyways and never have done. The true reward is our praise and love.

And the same with recall. With love and never treats. We have never seem the need, simply.

Food is utterly important to a dog which is why it is so easy to abuse them in this way.

Many seem to totally misunderstand the bond between dog and man.

Graces7

IvySlayer wrote: »

If my pup dared to growl at me over food, he'd be put outside. Tough love is needed. I am the boss. I give him a treat, I can take it away. No arguing. I will not tolerate any aggression. Those are the rules.

OP, try not to slap him. Don't show fear. He's 8 months now, he's going through the teen stage! Be patient, but firm. Whatever method you choose, slapping won't work.

Really? You have no idea what giving is, and no idea either how to treat a dog. A dog growling when it is eating and the food is threatened is behaving totally reasonably. It is totally unreasonable and indeed cruel to do as you do.

A dog growling to protect his food is NOT AGGRESSION. Sheesh!

Graces7

kaiser sauze wrote: »

When he growls like this you lift him away from his dish and put him outside.

You go back an half hour later with his bowl of food and try again, if he growls again you lift him outside again and leave it several hours before feeding again. You can try the half hour trick again here, but the second time round you need to give him something.

This has always worked for me, every dog we have ever had goes through this until they no longer growl at any human who is near them. With kids around this is important. (They still growl at other dogs though )

A dog's attention span is very short indeed so this is of no use . Anyine who takes away food deserves to be growled at and this is not aggression. How would you react if your dinner was given to you then suddenly removed?

Feed the dog and leave him to enjoy his food in peace, please .

lrushe

Graces7 wrote: »

Why would anyone even think of taking food from a dog?.

Unfortunately children don't always understand that they can't take food off a dog, even if they have been taught not to kids will still be kids.
Also it is important that dogs aren't allowed to become possessive over food for cases like where a child might be carrying a sandwich or something and let some fall, again kids being kid the first thing they will do will be to bend down and pick it up, a food possessive dog could pose a danger in circumstances like this.

Whispered

Graces7 wrote: »

Really? You have no idea what giving is, and no idea either how to treat a dog. A dog growling when it is eating and the food is threatened is behaving totally reasonably. It is totally unreasonable and indeed cruel to do as you do.

A dog growling to protect his food is NOT AGGRESSION. Sheesh!

A dog growling at a human is never reasonable unless the dog is in danger or experiencing extreme fear. To think otherwise is a potential danger imo. Growling at me for whatever reason is not something I would accept and I would very strongly suggest to other people not to accept it either, if your dog regularly growls at you, for taking his food, accidently stepping on him, trying to make him go somewhere he doesn't want to go etc, you have an issue which needs to be dealt with. I do agree with you Graces that ideally a dog should be left to have his meal in peace, but sometimes you need a drop command for food. You could need to take food off them, like if they come running from the bushes proudly showing you the mouldy sandwich that they found before settling down to eat it.:o

I am not one for throwing my weight around with my dog at all, I believe gentle training and understanding achieve much more than dominating your dog, but growling at me is just not on. For that I do not know how to treat a dog?

OP, try feeding him boring old kibble from bowl in your hands. Have tasty treats on the counter beside you, say "leave" and pull the bowl out from under the dog and quickly replace with a treat which he will hopefully prefer. When you're both happy doing this, try the command without pulling the bowl away, hopefully the dog will look up from the food in anticipation of his treat (which you then give). Eventually you can work this up to doing it with his bowl on the floor. Make it fun and make it worth his while handing food over to you. If you ever need to take food and don't have a reward (ie out and about and he finds something) make a big deal of him handing it over. He should always be rewarded for giving something up.

He's only a pup and you have loads of time to gently mould him into the dog you would like him to be. So glad you have decided against slapping and will try other methods. Please let us know how you get on.

kylith

Graces7 wrote: »

Why would anyone even think of taking food from a dog? Gobsmacked here at some of these posts.

Really, the utmost in teasing and in confusing. Tormenting them appallingly.

The only time we would even touch food dog has been given i s if there is danger.

And how do you take the possibly dangerous food from your dog if you have not trained them to leave it?

Daily I have to take bread, chips, burgers, chicken wings, ribs and who knows what else out of my dogs' mouths, thanks to the messy scumbags of Dublin City. If I had not taught them from day 1 that if I deem it necessary I will take food from them I'd probably have been bitten several times by now. They don't want to give it up, but they are not aggressive about it, and they know that it will be followed by an ear scratch and praise.

kaiser sauze

Graces7 wrote: »

A dog's attention span is very short indeed so this is of no use . Anyine who takes away food deserves to be growled at and this is not aggression. How would you react if your dinner was given to you then suddenly removed?

Feed the dog and leave him to enjoy his food in peace, please .

:rolleyes:

...and in any case, I remove the dog from the food, not the food from the dog.

Cherry Blossom

Graces7 wrote: »

Why would anyone even think of taking food from a dog? Gobsmacked here at some of these posts.

lrushe wrote: »

Unfortunately children don't always understand that they can't take food off a dog, even if they have been taught not to kids will still be kids.
Also it is important that dogs aren't allowed to become possessive over food for cases like where a child might be carrying a sandwich or something and let some fall, again kids being kid the first thing they will do will be to bend down and pick it up, a food possessive dog could pose a danger in circumstances like this.

These are exactly my reasons for training my dog to give up her food immediately, both for the safety of the kids and for her own. Also she will throw up for a week with mearly a whiff of anything that disagrees with her so it's obvious to me it's much kinder to have her trained in this manner than have her in a state of constant vomiting.

Graces7 wrote: »

Why would anyone even think of taking food from a dog? Gobsmacked here at some of these posts.

Really, the utmost in teasing and in confusing. Tormenting them appallingly.

The only time we would even touch food dog has been given i s if there is danger.

You have answered your first sentance here in part with your third, I would never be so stupid as to attempt to remove something dangerous from a dog that has had no training in giving up it's food. At best I would expect to get the results the OP is getting. At worst, I'd expect to loose an arm.

My dog isn't the least bit confused or tormented, she wouldn't be long expressing her feelings on the subject if she was. It's done in a way that she completely accepts it as a fact of life, which is the whole point.

Graces7 wrote: »

Many seem to totally misunderstand the bond between dog and man.

Can you please elaborate on how training a dog not to be food agressive for the saftey of all involved translates to misunderstanding the bond between dog and man, something has completely gone over my head here as I don't understand the meaning of this comment at all.

Wolfe Tone

I have my dog trained to spit out any food on command. I simply say ""thank you" and hold out my hand, she spits it out.

And as for slapping the dog, I said to slap it in the underside of the jaw as if you slap it on the nose it may see your hand coming and bite you. Or so I was told.

And as for hitting my dog, I only recall doing it once or twice when she was young when she snarled at me, or a family member. I am not going to apologize for that. My dog knows the boundaries, aggression in any form is not tolerated.

She is 8 now and is a great dog, very well trained and not in the least way aggressive to anyone.

cocker5

MUSSOLINI by name... and MUSSOLINI by nature... it says it all really...

and as for your dog spitting of foodon demand....patethic... thats totally through fear.. i feel very sorry for your dog.

Wolfe Tone

cocker5 wrote: »

MUSSOLINI by name... and MUSSOLINI by nature... it says it all really...

and as for your dog spitting of foodon demand....patethic... thats totally through fear.. i feel very sorry for your dog.

How is it totally through fear? Its not. The dog has never been protective of her food at all. I got fed up having to open her mouth and take out whatever piece of disgusting crap she decided to eat, so I trained her to spit it out on command.

Whispered

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

And as for hitting my dog, I only recall doing it once or twice when she was young when she snarled at me, or a family member. I

I must be honest and say if for any reason my dog snarled at a child I think my initial reaction would be to lash out - however I'd like to think I'd keep my head about me and deal with it correctly. But I can see how it happens, and while I never agree with agressively slapping your dog, I don't think it makes a bad owner unless you used it as your prefered method of control.

(I say agressively slapping because we play fight with the dog and he gets smacks then but it's all in fun, he actually backs his ass into you now to try get a smack signalling the start of a game. My husband regularly pats him on the back when we're out and about and he's off lead too, to anyone else it might look like a smack, but it's really just the 2 of them "checking in" and Harley will often run under his hand for the pat before running off again)

cocker5 wrote: »

and as for your dog spitting of foodon demand....patethic... thats totally through fear.. i feel very sorry for your dog.

My dog will drop food if I ask him to as well, I've only ever had him drop half chewed food once when he found something outside but he did that too. He doesn't fear me.

Graces7

kylith wrote: »

And how do you take the possibly dangerous food from your dog if you have not trained them to leave it?

Daily I have to take bread, chips, burgers, chicken wings, ribs and who knows what else out of my dogs' mouths, thanks to the messy scumbags of Dublin City. If I had not taught them from day 1 that if I deem it necessary I will take food from them I'd probably have been bitten several times by now. They don't want to give it up, but they are not aggressive about it, and they know that it will be followed by an ear scratch and praise.

I say give , ask quietly with hand outstretched and she gives. Only training she has had is her trust of me.

Never any of this palaver here!

And "leave it" works well too.
With eg that mouldy sandwich..

As far as children are concerned, wiser and safer to teach them to respect a dog.. they may meet dogs else than yours. Old adage is wise; the horse always kicks, the gun is always loaded and dog always bites.
So we always ask before petting anyone else's dog.

Dogs talk in growls and play in growls; that is not aggression - period. Our wee one plays with a brush or a stick and growls non stop, as do the two of them together often. And never any aggression in it; just talking.

Wolfe Tone

You can tell the difference between a playful growl and an aggressive one.

Whispered

Graces7 wrote: »

I say give , ask quietly with hand outstretched and she gives. .

yes - so you have her thought to drop her food if necessary. Exactly what the op is trying to do. A perfectly reasonable thing to teach a dog to do, for it's own safety and safety of those around them.

Graces7 wrote: »

Dogs talk in growls and play in growls; that is not aggression - period. Our wee one plays with a brush or a stick and growls non stop, as do the two of them together often. And never any aggression in it; just talking.

Agressive growling and play growling are two completly different things. Play growling has nothing to do with resource guarding. As is what is happening in the OP's case.

Resource guarding using agression, is agression. You accuse people of not knowing how to treat a dog because we feel it necessary to train a dog to safely give up food if needed, then in the next post you say how your dog does it as well. Very confusing to be honest.

leopardus

I found that playing object exchange 'games' worked really well. Start off with a less favoured treat or toy that your dog can 'own' then use a 'higher' reward item to get him to drop it on command. Now, even if my dog is chewing on a juicy bone if I ask him to 'drop' he does, expecting something better.

This article, based on Ian Dunbars book,gives good practical advise on how to deal with and prevent object guarding. The book is a very good, simple book on training:

http://dogtime.com/puppy-training-prevent-object-guarding-dunbar.html

leopardus

A dog growling when it is eating and the food is threatened is behaving totally reasonably. It is totally unreasonable and indeed cruel to do as you do.
A dog growling to protect his food is NOT AGGRESSION. Sheesh

The dog is not behaving reasonably. Through a combination of genetics/ experience and conditioned unwanted behaviours (by the owner) the dog feels threatened when he shouldn't. By playing object-exchange games and follwing the advise in the link in my previous post you teach your dog that there is no reasonable cause to act aggressively. And it is a manifestation of aggression, not dominance but definitely aggression.

http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2008_ST17.pdf

http://67.222.97.186/dominancemyth.pdf

Why would anyone even think of taking food from a dog? Gobsmacked here at some of these posts.

As other posters have noted it is absolutely essential that you should be able to get your dog to drop something on command for it's own safety. I would suggest that it is negligent not to do so. I'm pretty confident that if my dog picks up a cooked chicken wing on a run, or any other risk of intestinal (or oral) damage or blockage, he will drop it when I ask because of the 'games' I've played with him.

I say give , ask quietly with hand outstretched and she gives. Only training she has had is her trust of me.
Never any of this palaver here!
And "leave it" works well too.

I'm afraid that this shows that you are the one who "seem to totally misunderstand the bond between dog and man". Dogs don't speak English, how do the words "leave it" work well? What are the associations the dog makes with the words? What have you done to train your dog to know what behaviour is expected of it when you say those words? The opening Chapter of the book 'culture clash' deals with how outdated and damaging these attitudes are towards the dog/human relationship.

Your dog is obviously not possessive, great, that is where the OP is trying to get to. He can put his hand out and ask his dog, quietly, to "give" until he's blue in the face but it won't make a difference at this stage. What do you suggest he do?

As far as children are concerned, wiser and safer to teach them to respect a dog.. they may meet dogs else than yours. Old adage is wise; the horse always kicks, the gun is always loaded and dog always bites.

Rather than teaching all the children that my dog is likely to come across over the course of his life to respect my dog, it's a lot more sensible and practical to teach my dog to like and accept children, using possitive reinforcement techniques.

IvySlayer

Graces7 wrote: »

Really? You have no idea what giving is, and no idea either how to treat a dog. A dog growling when it is eating and the food is threatened is behaving totally reasonably. It is totally unreasonable and indeed cruel to do as you do.

A dog growling to protect his food is NOT AGGRESSION. Sheesh!

You have some nerve to tell me I don't know how to treat a dog. A dog growling at a human, unless in danger, in totally unreasonable in my book. Training a dog to drop food on command is one of the most vital things you can teach it. My pup has no problems with it.

It's for his own/other peoples protection not to behave aggressively around food. You may not agree but saying it's cruel, is beyond stupid.

PB27

Hi all,

Just an update,

Again thanks for the advice and I can see that people have different opinions on how to train there own individual dog. I cant judge as im not an expert and still learning.
But we are enjoying every moment with our little boy he brings us such enjoyment and is spoilt rotten.

But maybe different dogs need different training according to there individual needs.

But for us we have stopped slapping completely (by the way thanks for making me feel like the worst dog owner in history, but I understand where you all were coming from) and have started trading his favoured treats with other tastier treats and it seems to be working. I think he is not as possessive. He dose drop and take the treat for me quicker than the first time I started this training. Also his call back is much better.

Thanks all

cocker5

PB27 wrote: »

Hi all,

Just an update,

Again thanks for the advice and I can see that people have different opinions on how to train there own individual dog. I cant judge as im not an expert and still learning.
But we are enjoying every moment with our little boy he brings us such enjoyment and is spoilt rotten.

But maybe different dogs need different training according to there individual needs.

But for us we have stopped slapping completely (by the way thanks for making me feel like the worst dog owner in history, but I understand where you all were coming from) and have started trading his favoured treats with other tastier treats and it seems to be working. I think he is not as possessive. He dose drop and take the treat for me quicker than the first time I started this training. Also his call back is much better.

Thanks all

Well done.. and keep up the training... it may take time but it will be owrth it in the end!

You have seen positive results in a short amount of time which is brillant!

Bes of luck with your little guy... cockers are fab dogs... and have brillant quirky personailities.. so enjoy him

sionnaic

PB27 wrote: »

But for us we have stopped slapping completely (by the way thanks for making me feel like the worst dog owner in history, but I understand where you all were coming from) and have started trading his favoured treats with other tastier treats and it seems to be working. I think he is not as possessive. He dose drop and take the treat for me quicker than the first time I started this training. Also his call back is much better.

Yep that's exactly what our trainer told us to do. And it does work given time. It's great you took the time to find out a better way to train her. So many people don't.

Some people here are very passionate about animal welfare and can come on a bit strong sometimes especially if it involves slapping or hitting etc but they have the best interests of the dog at heart and they do give good advice. Try not to feel too bad - you were making mistakes because you didn't know any better but thankfully you recognised that now and have made positive changes. I was the same at one point and have educated myself. Boards really helped me with that!

What's inexcusable is people who have done their research and choose the violent and negative methods anyway.