I want to protest without being associated with the far left or troublemakers

Stabshauptmann

I have one simple yet important thing I want to protest for:

I think it is undemocratic that the most important Dail votes in recent Irish history are to be held while so many bye elections, that could tip the balance of power, are being delayed.

I think this is important. I think what ever happens, whether we turn communist and leave the EU, or sign up to an IMF bailout and ass raping budget that it should be the decision of a government who holds a real mandate.

I want to do some sort of action, protest, what ever because I think this is something that will define a generation, and I dont want to have just vented my frustration from my sofa.

I think there are a lot of like minded people out there, but who like me, do not want to be on the 6.1 news surrounded by anarchists looking to battle police, republican sinn fein, or people with political agendas they cant agree with (for me the far left).

Is there a like minded group out there preparing a protest I dont know about, or a group here willing to help organise one (or even a group willing to march next saturday as a seperate sub group to the main protest)?

PomBear

most people who do protest aren't part of any political party or group

francie81

I think your spot on mate yeah I feel myself that I should be there and anyone else who cares about the sovereignty of their country that was fought for nearly a century ago that is the real logic here of whats going on.

alang184

RTE (very surprisingly) mentioned about an upcoming protest next week. I think it's organised by the unions.

I know, tagging along with the unions may not be ideal. But the important thing is the numbers. The only chance of effectiveness is the numbers. If 200 people show up - no good. If 5,000+ show up - lots of good.

RandolphEsq

alang184 wrote: »

RTE (very surprisingly) mentioned about an upcoming protest next week. I think it's organised by the unions.

I know, tagging along with the unions may not be ideal. But the important thing is the numbers. The only chance of effectiveness is the numbers. If 200 people show up - no good. If 5,000+ show up - lots of good.

I'm not too sure about that. I would much rather be on my own with my own message than jump in with a protest purely for the apparent enhancement of the power of my own message, even if the large protest had a similar, but not exactly the same, message as myself.

yermanoffthetv

RandolphEsq wrote: »

I'm not too sure about that. I would much rather be on my own with my own message than jump in with a protest...

Get a sandwichboard, paint your own message of protest, stand in a public place, problem solved

Faustino

be careful with the aul protest talk.. it's not very welcome on here apparently.

I would imagine if the announcement had happened at lunchtime today there would have been a huge number of people outside the Dail tonight and given the way the guards have been treating people it would have turned very ugly.

Hopefully something will happen today that accelerates the governments departure, I can't stand to listen to those inept crooks anymore.

Agent Smith

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Get a sandwichboard, paint your own message of protest, stand in a public place, problem solved

run_Forrest_run

francie81 wrote: »

I think your spot on mate yeah I feel myself that I should be there and anyone else who cares about the sovereignty of their country that was fought for nearly a century ago that is the real logic here of whats going on.

don't cod yourself, we've been gradually losing out sovereignty for decades now, it's just that it's more painfully clear during the bad times. So many people had no problem saying yes to Europe when the money was flying around, time to wake up and face the hangover <ok, I'm being dramatic at such an early hour in the morning but you get the gist!>

zootroid

You want to protest, the protest at the ballot box and never vote Fianna Fail again. Write a letter to your TD, and tell him how disgusted you are.

Irish people don't demand enough of their politicians, as long as the parish pump is working they don't care about national issues. This is one of the reasons why FF have been able to stay in power for the last 13 years

feicim

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I think this is important. I think what ever happens, whether we turn communist and leave the EU, or sign up to an IMF bailout and ass raping budget that it should be the decision of a government who holds a real mandate.

I want to do some sort of action, protest, what ever because I think this is something that will define a generation, and I dont want to have just vented my frustration from my sofa.

I think there are a lot of like minded people out there, but who like me, do not want to be on the 6.1 news surrounded by anarchists looking to battle police, republican sinn fein, or people with political agendas they cant agree with (for me the far left).

Is there a like minded group out there preparing a protest I dont know about, or a group here willing to help organise one (or even a group willing to march next saturday as a seperate sub group to the main protest)?

What are you so afraid of??? Being associasted with the far left? Getting beaten up by the police??

Do you think your best bet may be to hide behind your sofa until it is all over?

Or is it worth taking the risk and just getting out on the street and letting the government know that you are not happy with the job they are doing.

If you are waiting around for someone to lift a banner that all the people of Ireland will rally behind, you will be dissapointed. None of the parties/individuals with the power to pull off a mass protest can be arsed. Fine Gael, Labour, David McWilliams etc probably could manage this but can talk the talk but not walk the walk.

So, my advice would be just go out and protest, use your common sense and try and stay away from trouble.

Stabshauptmann

I dont think you actually read my post.

I want to protest, but I want to do it for the reasons I set out in my post, and as set out in my opening post, I do not want my protest to be construed as support for the unions, republican sinn fein, anarchy or other causes I disagree with.

Im looking for like minded people who would like to join me next saturday to form our own section of the march with a clearly seperate agenda, but in agreement with the overall message that the current government must go

NOGMaxpower

Just show your support by going to every protest there is in your area and or in the city. Dont let our failed political system define when and who you can protest with. Put your petty differences aside and just make up the numbers by protesting at every single march there is.

I personally felt the same as you can came to this conclusion. Its all about numbers on the streets.

deelite

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I want to do some sort of action, protest, what ever because I think this is something that will define a generation, and I dont want to have just vented my frustration from my sofa.

I don't want to be an armchair protestor either I think personally I'd enjoy a silent protest - whilst holding a banner / sandwich board speaks for itself.

Cannibal Ox

You're trying to organise a large enough group of people to march with you so that by saturday evening RTE will report that your groups rational for marching was different to the other several thousand people. I'd guess that isn't going to happen. Why don't you ask some friends, family or co-workers, go along and march at the back. You'll know you weren't there because of the unions, and you'll know why you marched, so why worry about what the media says.

molard

read on politics ie. march on dail today at 1.

snollup

Hey OP, you are far from alone. I plan on going along next Saturday with my own message of protest, yet to be decided, but defiantly un-union or SF message.

Zynks

Years ago in college a very left wing friend said that unions are one of the most important tools to maintain capitalism. I tend to agree, but would actually put it in a different way, they are (currently) one of the best protections to the status quo - I know many people who feel there is no point protesting if the action will be taken over by unions and anarchists.

Mister men

There's a protest outside the Dail today at one. Get out from behind your keyboard and get down there.

Fianna Downfall

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I have one simple yet important thing I want to protest for:

You can begin your protest with a simple mouse click.

We have set a facebook page, Fianna Downfall.

Maybe you could give our page a like on facebook.

Cheers.

28064212

Does anyone know what's involved with setting up a protest? What the regulations are? Presumably there is some form of licensing "legitimate" protests so that everyone who decides to walk down the middle of O'Connell St isn't mowed down by people who want to use the road as a road.

So what are the requirements? Do you have to register a "reason"? If so, can the organiser of a protest go to Gardaí on the day and point out people or groups who are not part of the protest and do not have the right to do what legitimate protestors are doing?

irishh_bob

i want this goverment to get the budget through but if they dont call an election after that , i am prepared to march , the guards wont be so batton happy with a hundred thousand people parked outside leinster house , cowen has no shame and i wouldnt put it past him to try and brazen it out untill 2012 , that cannot be allowed to happen

Fussgangerzone

You could go out protesting against infanticide.

You'd still be labelled a far-left, republican troublemaker in the press.

That's just Ireland.

irishh_bob

scratch that last post

breaking news is that the greens are pulling the plug and want an election in january

28064212

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

You could go out protesting against infanticide.

You'd still be labelled a far-left, republican troublemaker in the press.

That's just Ireland.

Probably something to do with the fact that there will inevitably be more far-left, republican troublemakers in the protest than people protesting against infanticide

Krusader

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

don't cod yourself, we've been gradually losing out sovereignty for decades now, it's just that it's more painfully clear during the bad times. So many people had no problem saying yes to Europe when the money was flying around, time to wake up and face the hangover <ok, I'm being dramatic at such an early hour in the morning but you get the gist!>

If I remember correctly, we said No to Europe twice, but our FF overlords wouldn't have it

Stabshauptmann

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

You're trying to organise a large enough group of people to march with you so that by saturday evening RTE will report that your groups rational for marching was different to the other several thousand people.

No, I plan to join the march on Saturday but carry a placard with my own message. Regardless of the outcome of this thread I will be doing that.

I would hate to be in a photo or RTE segment standing next to muppets throwing stones at police, or to be surrounded on all sides by people holding republican sinn fein placards I do not agree with.

I will do my best on the day not to be surrounded by these people.

As part of achieving this aim, I am seeking others who would also like to march, for reasons similar to my own, and who like me do not want to be in the thick of the aforementioned, to let themselves be known and perhaps we can march together.

Cannibal Ox

28064212 wrote:

If so, can the organiser of a protest go to Gardaí on the day and point out people or groups who are not part of the protest and do not have the right to do what legitimate protestors are doing?

The human right to freedom of belief, expression and association are all guaranteed under the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the European Convention on Human Rights. Opposing another person's rights based on your own political or personal views is fundamentally opposed to the ideals of democracy, liberty and human rights so...I'd say, it'd be a bad idea to try, you probably wouldn't succeed unless you could prove a public danger, and even if you did they'd be able to drag the state before the EU Court of Human Rights (eventually) and have them reprimanded (rightly).

Stabshauptmann

28064212 wrote: »

Does anyone know what's involved with setting up a protest? What the regulations are? Presumably there is some form of licensing "legitimate" protests so that everyone who decides to walk down the middle of O'Connell St isn't mowed down by people who want to use the road as a road.

So what are the requirements? Do you have to register a "reason"? If so, can the organiser of a protest go to Gardaí on the day and point out people or groups who are not part of the protest and do not have the right to do what legitimate protestors are doing?

You need a permit under health and safety rules for gatherings over a certain size. I imagine you need to co-operate with the gardai to cordon off a public road, and such co-operation would involve submitting an event plan and providing your own stewards.

Yes those stewards could point to a group and say they're not one of ours; but in this case there are a number of organisers who have invited all those who wish to protest the budget to come along. that is what I will be doing, just trying not to be in any photos next to socialist workers party or republican sinn fein

optogirl

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I have one simple yet important thing I want to protest for:

I think it is undemocratic that the most important Dail votes in recent Irish history are to be held while so many bye elections, that could tip the balance of power, are being delayed.

I think this is important. I think what ever happens, whether we turn communist and leave the EU, or sign up to an IMF bailout and ass raping budget that it should be the decision of a government who holds a real mandate.

I want to do some sort of action, protest, what ever because I think this is something that will define a generation, and I dont want to have just vented my frustration from my sofa.

I think there are a lot of like minded people out there, but who like me, do not want to be on the 6.1 news surrounded by anarchists looking to battle police, republican sinn fein, or people with political agendas they cant agree with (for me the far left).

Is there a like minded group out there preparing a protest I dont know about, or a group here willing to help organise one (or even a group willing to march next saturday as a seperate sub group to the main protest)?

I go on a lot of marches and I am not affilliated with any political party or action group. I am marching under my own name. The point of a collective march is to show that EVERYONE, not only people with their own agenda, are sick of this government. Nobody is going to indoctrine you - march under your own name and accept that although you may not agree with the politics of others on the march, you do have this much in common.

28064212

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

The human right to freedom of belief, expression and association are all guaranteed under the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the European Convention on Human Rights. Opposing another person's rights based on your own political or personal views is fundamentally opposed to the ideals of democracy, liberty and human rights so...I'd say, it'd be a bad idea to try, you probably wouldn't succeed unless you could prove a public danger, and even if you did they'd be able to drag the state before the EU Court of Human Rights (eventually) and have them reprimanded (rightly).

But people don't have a right to just march down O'Connell St, and they would, and should be, arrested for doing so. If I obtain a permit for an organisation to march, that does not give other organisations a permit to march.

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

You need a permit under health and safety rules for gatherings over a certain size. I imagine you need to co-operate with the gardai to cordon off a public road, and such co-operation would involve submitting an event plan and providing your own stewards.

Yes those stewards could point to a group and say they're not one of ours; but in this case there are a number of organisers who have invited all those who wish to protest the budget to come along. that is what I will be doing, just trying not to be in any photos next to socialist workers party or republican sinn fein

Well then all you can do is try and stay away from those elements. It is not 'your' protest. You're talking about hijacking a protest in exactly the same manner as you criticise those other groups for doing

Cannibal Ox

28064212 wrote:

But people don't have a right to just march down O'Connell St, and they would, and should be, arrested for doing so. If I obtain a permit for an organisation to march, that does not give other organisations a permit to march.

They have a right to express their beliefs and associate with others who share those beliefs peacefully, i.e, as long as they are not infringing on other people's rights. If someone wants to prevent them from expressing those beliefs because they don't agree with them and uses a permit to do that, I'd be inclined to say that's fundamentally anti-democratic because the motivation, you don't agree with them, is opposed to the idea of their rights of freedom of expression, belief, and association.

I'm not saying permits should or shouldn't be necessary, I can understand the requirement for a permit, but equally, using permits to prevent people from exercising their rights because you don't agree with them is wrong. If you really, really don't want to be associated with a particular group, then dis-associate yourself from them, march behind or in front or on a different street, and do what ever else you feel is necessary, but don't try to stop them through a permit.

28064212

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

They have a right to express their beliefs and associate with others who share those beliefs peacefully, i.e, as long as they are not infringing on other people's rights. If someone wants to prevent them from expressing those beliefs because they don't agree with them and uses a permit to do that, I'd be inclined to say that's fundamentally anti-democratic because the motivation, you don't agree with them, is opposed to the idea of their rights of freedom of expression, belief, and association.

What's the difference between a protest and, say, a meeting in a hall? Should an organisation be forced to allow anyone to attend their meetings just because the persons want to be associated with them, even when they may have other (conflicting) beliefs?

Freedom of association means that the state can't interfere, not that the association itself can't

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

I'm not saying permits should or shouldn't be necessary, I can understand the requirement for a permit, but equally, using permits to prevent people from exercising their rights because you don't agree with them is wrong. If you really, really don't want to be associated with a particular group, then dis-associate yourself from them, march behind or in front or on a different street, and do what ever else you feel is necessary, but don't try to stop them through a permit.

And if they follow you around, specifically because they want to be associated with you to lend credence to their protest?

Cannibal Ox

28064212 wrote:

What's the difference between a protest and, say, a meeting in a hall? Should an organisation be forced to allow anyone to attend their meetings just because the persons want to be associated with them, even when they may have other (conflicting) beliefs?

Public vs private property. If the organisation owns the hall, it has rights in respect to who can and can't enter it. Though, if it's refusing entry based on discriminatory grounds (black, woman, gay, etc,.) the justification for that could be an issue for the courts. If it is public property, and their opposition isn't inciting or committing violence, I see absolutely no reason why they should be excluded. I think it would be far more valuable to a meeting to have dissenting voices to test the strength of the general opinion, rather then a meeting of happy like minds enjoying the compatibility of their views.

And if they follow you around, specifically because they want to be associated with you to lend credence to their protest?

In a hypothetical scenario where your or I organise a protest, it is our responsibility for the protest and the 'make up' of the protest. We organise it, we are responsible for who comes and how they act. If they start breaking windows or heads, no it isn't fair on us, the organisers, but we still have responsibility because we are the ones organising it, not the state, not the government, and not the gardai. In that situation, if you don't want people or groups associated with you, sort it out beforehand, make it clear to them, and if they still do it, make it clear afterwards in the media.

28064212

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

In a hypothetical scenario where your or I organise a protest, it is our responsibility for the protest and the 'make up' of the protest. We organise it, we are responsible for who comes and how they act. If they start breaking windows or heads, no it isn't fair on us, the organisers, but we still have responsibility because we are the ones organising it, not the state, not the government, and not the gardai. In that situation, if you don't want people or groups associated with you, sort it out beforehand, make it clear to them, and if they still do it, make it clear afterwards in the media.

So if I organise a protest against student fees, gaining a permit to do so by marching down O'Connell St, the neo-nazis can organise a protest against "student fees and black people", using the permit my organisation applied for?

Cannibal Ox

28064212 wrote:

So if I organise a protest against student fees, gaining a permit to do so by marching down O'Connell St, the neo-nazis can organise a protest against "student fees and black people", using the permit my organisation applied for?

No, because they are inciting (and, arguably doing) violence against a section of the population.

Which I suppose begs the question of what if a neo-nazi group organised a march under the guise of anti student fees but with the (secret) intent of inciting violence and racism. This happens in the UK (depending who you talk to) with the BNP or the English Defence League. There they can ban marches or protests, but even for the EDL or BNP, it's rare precisely because they have a right to protest. What normally happens is that counter groups across the country as well as local groups organise, they campaign for a ban, and if they fail, they organise counter marches.

I know this isn't a perfect solution, but adopting a strategy of silencing groups (as extreme as they may be) because we don't agree with them is threading on dangerous ground in my opinion.

meglome

Crosáidí wrote: »

If I remember correctly, we said No to Europe twice, but our FF overlords wouldn't have it

If I remember correctly we said no to abortion and divorce, terrible how they were forced on us.

28064212

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

No, because they are inciting (and, arguably doing) violence against a section of the population.

What if they're not? What if they're just advocating racism, e.g. whites should be given jobs instead of blacks?

Or to step away from such extreme groups, what if it's a pro-life group organising a protest against "student fees and abortion", using the permit my organisation applied for?

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

I know this isn't a perfect solution, but adopting a strategy of silencing groups (as extreme as they may be) because we don't agree with them is threading on dangerous ground in my opinion.

I don't want to silence anybody. I'm all for neo-nazis applying for a permit and having a (peaceful) protest. What I do have a problem with is groups piggy-backing on other protests which have nothing to do with them, purely in order to make it appear they have more supporters than they actually do.

feicim

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Im looking for like minded people who would like to join me next saturday to form our own section of the march with a clearly seperate agenda,....

How many do you think you will get to join your little "splinter-march" by posting on boards? You could have a meeting before the march in a phonebox...

Fussgangerzone

28064212 wrote: »

Probably something to do with the fact that there will inevitably be more far-left, republican troublemakers in the protest than people protesting against infanticide

Yeah, anyone who reads a paper can tell you that. Hey, wait a second...

deelite

Can somebody clarify when shops organise their sales (big sales) like the Lidl warehouse sale in July there were tons of people and no garda presence - so say if I happened to be walking with a banner (just walking in silence) and there happened to be loads of people doing the same - that's not against the law and surely doesn't need a permit / licence?

My banner is going to say BRING BACK SOLPHADINE ON CHEMIST COUNTERS!!!