David Begg and the Unions have NO Moral Authority

Barname

David Begg is calling for a large protest. For what? So the public can vent at David Beggs own incompetence and betrayal of the people?

as the title states, David Begg and his self serving corrupt organisations have NO Moral Authority and here is why...

http://www.centralbank.ie/data/AnnRepFiles/Central%20Bank.pdf

GO TO Page 6

David Begg sat on the Audit Committee of The Central Bank during the most damaging years of the Credit bubble

David Begg had access to what was going on in the Central Bank

David Begg was in receipt of Irish taxpayers cash YET he failed to flag the deceit in the Central Bank

David Begg is COMPLICIT in the current morass due to his inaction

David Begg has NO moral authority and has no right whatsoever to hijack the ordinary peoples anger

David Begg is part of the problem.

David Begg has no solutions.

20Cent

Don't know about David Begg (if what you say in true) but Unions certainly have a moral authority to protest. In fact they should be.

They are also offering solutions here is the ICTU pre-budget submission.

http://www.ictu.ie/publications/fulllist/prebudget-submission-2011/

Barname

20Cent wrote: »

Don't know about David Begg (if what you say in true) but Unions certainly have a moral authority to protest. In fact they should be.

They are also offering solutions here is the ICTU pre-budget submission.

http://www.ictu.ie/publications/fulllist/prebudget-submission-2011/

You say you dont know about David Begg. What are you? capable of typing and posting but incapable of clicking or researching that which may discomfort you or remove the Unions moral authority?

Look:

David Begg IS General Secretary of ICTU he has held that position since 2001

David Begg IS a director of the Central Bank and here is the PROOF:

2002 Annual Report: I refer you to Page 19 of this report
http://www.centralbank.ie/data/AnnRepFiles/Full%20Report.pdf

This clearly stated that David Begg was first appointed to the Central Bank board of Directors in 1995

2009 Annual Report: I refer you to Page 2 of this Report,
http://www.centralbank.ie/data/AnnRepFiles/FINAL%20ANNUAL%20REPORT.pdf

For 15 Years David Begg sat, eating the fat as a director of the Central Bank, this is incontrovertible

Yes, that is this David Begg:
http://www.ictu.ie/about/

This man has no Moral Authority.

NOW, lets address ICTU

ICTU's President up to last year was none other than Peter McLoone

Peter McLoone, Donegal FFriend of Fianna Fail and FAS

FAS - Peter McLoone

2005
http://www.fas.ie/en/PubDocs/AnnualReports/ANNUAL_REPORT05/index.htm

2006
http://www.fas.ie/en/PubDocs/AnnualReports/ANNUAL_REPORT06/index.htm

2007
http://www.fas.ie/en/PubDocs/AnnualReports/ANNUAL_REPORT07/index.htm

2008
http://www.fas.ie/en/PubDocs/AnnualReports/ANNUAL_REPORT08/index.htm

Peter McLoone and the board of FAS resigned in DISGRACE in 2009

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0913/fas.html

Peter McLoone, the chairman of the board of FÁS has said all its members will resign in the wake of a report which showed a massive waste of taxpayer money.

The Unions have NO Moral Authority, they are part of the structural problem with our nations finances

Its a bit rich that the Unions are today threatening civil unrest because they know the IMF will shred The Crook Perk Deal

The Unions were happy till now sitting on the sideline with the unfair Crook Perk Deal in their back pocket

Well, welcome to the real world you selfish losers

Buy a razor, you will need to be clean shaven in an open jobs market!

Spruce up!

thebman

Unions have no mandate from the people of Ireland to influence budgets, only the mandate of the invested interest of its members and their personal agendas.

They should be ignored, just like the other ignorant, arrogant, selfish, disgusting lobby groups just like them looking to secure their piece of the pie of tax payers money that they have no right to but feel entitled to.

Barname

I note there has been no legitimate challenge to the posted facts.

ergo, The Unions have NO moral authority to lecture or threaten anyone.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

AnonymousPrime

I would go a bit further and say no union has moral authority over anything. It is a grouping for people with skills which are not taken seriously enough without its backing.
I am not downplaying the importance of unions in of Irish history but they are now irrelevant.
I have never joined one and never will

meglome

I find it interesting that last year the Technical Engineering and Electrical Union pushed through a pay-rise for their, already very well paid, members. Thus no doubt putting many more of them out of a job, as company's cannot afford to pay these wages.

My own brother is barely keeping his head above water with his electrical company. The obvious thing to do would be to cut wages since you can't get rid of materials. But he's not allowed to cut wages.

kaiser sauze

People listen to what Begg and O'Connor say?

No wonder the country is a basket-case!

Fussgangerzone

Last time I checked, unions were comprised of people who work for a living. You're effectively saying that a bunch of irish taxpayers aren't entitled to a voice, because they banded together to serve a common interest.

As for David Begg, I'm not a fan myself, but it's his job to represent his members, who pay his wages, and it's for them to say if he has the authority, moral or otherwise to lead them.

The unions are in no way complicit in our economic crisis, they have never been identified by any serious analysis as a cause. It's the banks and the government.

If you want to say that it would be easier to run the country if the public sector had lower wages, that might be true. It would also be easier if nobody went shopping up north over the last 3 years. It'd be easier if everybody favoured Irish produce over imported. It'd be easier if rich investors had the imagination to put their money into something other than property. It'd be easier if lots of things were different.

I see the unions as they are, a bunch of people teaming up to get the best possible working conditions. That's just common sense, as employers, corporations in particular have it in their interest to give as little as possible. Anyone saying they ruin the place can go and hop in a time machine to the industrial revolution era britain, because they must really miss those working conditions.

I'm not part of a union, but I think my job would be a lot less palatable had the bar not been raised by organised labour. Wouldn't want to live in a world without them.

Sand

Last time I checked, unions were comprised of people who work for a living

No, theyre comprised of people who leverage the power of their members at the expense of rest of society.

As for David Begg, I'm not a fan myself, but it's his job to represent his members, who pay his wages, and it's for them to say if he has the authority, moral or otherwise to lead them.

Which is exactly why the entire social partnership cartel was so wholly undemocratic and unconstitutional. A self interested cartel being invited to determine the economic and fiscal policy for the country when, as you say, they had no interest whatsoever in the rest of the county other than what they could extract from it for themselves. A complete disenfranchisement of the rest of the citizens.

meglome

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

I'm not part of a union, but I think my job would be a lot less palatable had the bar not been raised by organised labour. Wouldn't want to live in a world without them.

I don't think anyone would say Unions have not been instrumental in the past in protecting workers and raising standards. I think many of us would also feel they have long since forgotten their beginnings.

Fussgangerzone

Sand wrote: »

No, theyre comprised of people who leverage the power of their members at the expense of rest of society.

At the expense of the rest of society? Rarely. About 75% of the protest days over the last year were in the industrial sector. That's ESRI info I think. (I heard it on the radio, originally, and not Joe Duffy or anything). The public sector are lambasted because when they want better working conditions, it impacts the state. When the private sector strike for better working conditions, nobody cares.

And your point does nothing to change the fact that "the unions" consists of hundreds of thousnads of irish workers, so I reject your "no". And I re-iterate, the unions have never been identified by any serious ananlysis as a cause of the current crisis. Our public sector has been habitually underfunded throughout the boom and after. Are some priveliged types overpaid? Yes, but we still spend less per head than most of our EU counterparts.

Which is exactly why the entire social partnership cartel was so wholly undemocratic and unconstitutional. A self interested cartel being invited to determine the economic and fiscal policy for the country when, as you say, they had no interest whatsoever in the rest of the county other than what they could extract from it for themselves. A complete disenfranchisement of the rest of the citizens.

I disagree. There will never be a single groupd that represents the whole country. Never. Anyone who claims to do so can only be a liar. And union action is not a disenfranchisement of the rest of the citizens, it's a human right guaranteed under the Geneve Convention. And say what you like, union members spend money more than their employers would had they not been forced to pay out more. That's money being recirculated and retaxed.

I don't agree with this attitude of "people in the private sector are getting pissed on, andf people in the public sector aren't, so public sector workerts must be bastards". They're not, private sector workers allow themselves to be exploited, because either they can't get anything better, their industry isn't unionisable (that's me), or they actually do very well. Despite that, they still benefit in numerous ways from the actions of unions.

And as it happens, right now a self-interested cartel is determining the economic and fiscal policy for the country, namely the IMF. And it is no way the responsibility of the unions, unless you can prove they all voted for Fianna Fáil.

Fussgangerzone

meglome wrote: »

I don't think anyone would say Unions have not been instrumental in the past in protecting workers and raising standards. I think many of us would also feel they have long since forgotten their beginnings.

I'd say some have, some haven't. They're terribly misrepresented in the media though. For two main reasons, in my reckoning:

1. "Union and employer agree favourable terms as part of routine negotiations" doesn't make a catchy headline.
2. Right wing papers. Independent newspapers and the redtops combined.

Long story short, unions are all right, imo. They're not great, and there's some real dickheads out there, but they're a manifestation of democracy, not a host of angels. Expect to be pissed off sometimes, I do. I get get pissed off by anti-union polemic more often than pro-union polemic, based on the sheer volume of the former.

Sir Oxman

Begg won't stop me from marching on Saturday - the unpalatable facts are the unions are about the only structure in this country that can organise a protest that will get the numbers to make it meaningful.
This is the same crap that tells people not to protest in case eirigi or swp appear - well I don't give a fup if they do, they are easily swamped by ordinary punters if the ordinary punters aren't scared of being associated with them and turnout in huge numbers.
Same with the likes of Begg. I won't be there to support him or ICTU.

Look at the NAMA turnouts? I was there and it was pathetic.

Irish people should grow some liathroidi.

Sand

At the expense of the rest of society? Rarely.

Benchmarking

And I re-iterate, the unions have never been identified by any serious ananlysis as a cause of the current crisis.

:rolleyes:

Our public sector has been habitually underfunded throughout the boom and after.

:eek::rolleyes:

I disagree. There will never be a single groupd that represents the whole country. Never. Anyone who claims to do so can only be a liar.

The Oireachtas?

And union action is not a disenfranchisement of the rest of the citizens, it's a human right guaranteed under the Geneve Convention.

Social partnership is not union representation, its union powerbrokers like David Begg jumping to the head of the queue to ensure they extract their pound of flesh before the needs of the wider Irish people are considered. And securing a few plum appointments for himself at the expense of the Irish taxpayer - such as being the dog that didnt bark on the board of the central bank.

And like you said, David Begg couldnt care less about the Irish people or Ireland - he is only there to represent the people who pay his wages. Whatever else may be said bout Brian Cowen, at least he recognises, even academically, that he is there to represent the people of Ireland - even those who didnt vote for him. The cheek of the trade unions thinking they can rival the Oireachtas in represnting the Irish people and the Irish state is a clear sign they need to be cut down to size. If David Begg and Jack O Connor want a mandate to represent the Irish people, then let them stand for election. Until then theyre just another greedy crowd, no better than Seanie Fitzpatrick and company.

20Cent

No serious commentator or economist is blaming unions for this mess. It is amazing that as Ireland drowns in a sea of private debt made public some still feel the need to blame unions (for ideological rather than actual reasons imho).
There will be 80-100,000 people out on Saturday to protest this disgrace FF have brought on us. No other group could bring out numbers like that. Personal opinions of individual union members or leaders are immaterial everyone who can should be out on Saturday.

Pete_Cavan

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

The unions are in no way complicit in our economic crisis, they have never been identified by any serious analysis as a cause. It's the banks and the government.

Except that the government do not have total control over some of the aspects of the economy and country. The unions viciously oppose any reductions in PS wages, basic and sensible changes in working conditions, they even opposed removing the half hour a week PS workers get to cash their pay cheques despite the fact that most of them no longer get paid by cheque. It is not true to say the unions are in no way complicit in our economic crisis, they held the government to ransom with the constant threat of strikes and prevented the government from implementing their own policies on one of the biggest costs to the taxpayer.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

I see the unions as they are, a bunch of people teaming up to get the best possible working conditions. That's just common sense, as employers, corporations in particular have it in their interest to give as little as possible. Anyone saying they ruin the place can go and hop in a time machine to the industrial revolution era britain, because they must really miss those working conditions.

Unions may have served a purpose once upon a time but nowadays we have a series of Irish and EU employment legislation, minimum wage, Labour Court, Labour Relations Commission and National Employment Rights Authority. Employees would do just fine without unions. There are many non-union workers in this country and they are not being exploited (I know because I am one). Unions have no real purpose yet exercise too much power in this country.

FreudianSlippers

Unions are corrupt and outdated. The leaders of unions go out and talk about helping their members and discuss fairness and sharing money.
Bunch of crap-talk while they get paid 50x more than the average union employee.

meglome

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

I'd say some have, some haven't. They're terribly misrepresented in the media though. For two main reasons, in my reckoning:

Long story short, unions are all right, imo. They're not great, and there's some real dickheads out there, but they're a manifestation of democracy, not a host of angels. Expect to be pissed off sometimes, I do. I get get pissed off by anti-union polemic more often than pro-union polemic, based on the sheer volume of the former.

Sorry but I nearly dislike the unions as much as FF. I feel utterly lied to and cheated by the unions with 'partnership'. I like the majority of Irish people got nothing out of it other than a massive debt.

20Cent wrote: »

No serious commentator or economist is blaming unions for this mess. It is amazing that as Ireland drowns in a sea of private debt made public some still feel the need to blame unions (for ideological rather than actual reasons imho).
There will be 80-100,000 people out on Saturday to protest this disgrace FF have brought on us. No other group could bring out numbers like that. Personal opinions of individual union members or leaders are immaterial everyone who can should be out on Saturday.

During the boom years we all heard from the unions about how terrible it was out there for the poor workers. The problem was most of the workers they were representing were not 'poor' at all. So we ended up with a load of fat people at the trough getting way more than their fair share. The Unions helped perpetuate many of the problems we're now having. Sure FF rolled over and allowed it to happen if that makes it all better.

Honestly I couldn't march with them, listening to their entitled, blame everyone else bull. I'd actually be afraid I'd do something I'd only slightly regret.

Pete_Cavan

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

Our public sector has been habitually underfunded throughout the boom and after. Are some priveliged types overpaid? Yes, but we still spend less per head than most of our EU counterparts.

Can you provide proof of this please?

Ireland’s doctors, nurses and teachers are among the highest paid in the world, according to new figures that highlight the large scale of the public sector pay bill.

http://www.sbpost.ie/news/irish-public-sector-workers-among-worlds-highest-earners-50628.html

Civil servants, politicians, hospital consultants, teachers and nurses are all better paid than their Northern Ireland counterparts on most rungs of the promotional ladder

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1123/1224283932883.html

Sand

20Cent wrote: »

There will be 80-100,000 people out on Saturday to protest this disgrace FF have brought on us. No other group could bring out numbers like that. Personal opinions of individual union members or leaders are immaterial everyone who can should be out on Saturday.

Why? As pointed out already on this thread unions are only out for themselves. Why should ordinary citizens support a parasitical organisation which exists only to to feather their own nest at the expense of ordinary citizens?

20Cent

Sand wrote: »

Why? As pointed out already on this thread unions are only out for themselves. Why should ordinary citizens support a parasitical organisation which exists only to to feather their own nest?

Parasitical organisations??? Thats your opinion I disagree I call it democracy.

Why should people join the march?
Because our country is about to be screwed for generations. We need an election, a default and a fairer budget. If you know of another group that can get 100,000 people out I'd be happy to join it also. Lack or participation will be seen as approval for the current path over the cliff. This is probably the one last chance for a mass demonstration before the budget. What one thinks of David Begg, Jack O'Connor, the ictu or whoever is immaterial.

Sand

Parasitical organisations??? Thats your opinion I disagree I call it democracy.

Trade unions are a cartel which attempt to leverage their membership to feather their own nest at the expense of the rest of the country, and to disenfranchise the rest of the people of the country. Theres absolutely nothing democratic about them.

I see a place for trade unions to protect people from exploitation - I see no role whatsoever for the likes of Begg and O'Connor to sit on state boards and participate in negotiations with the elected representitive of this country as if they were equals.

Why should people join the march?
Because our country is about to be screwed for generations. We need an election, a default and a fairer budget. If you know of another group that can get 100,000 people out I'd be happy to join it also. Lack or participation will be seen as approval for the current path over the cliff. This is probably the one last chance for a mass demonstration before the budget. What one thinks of David Begg, Jack O'Connor, the ictu or whoever is immaterial.

And as already pointed out:

the. unions. couldnt. care. less. about. the. country.

They only care about themselves. They only get riled up when their pay is threatened. They only get out on the streets when the Croke Park deal is threatened.

They couldnt care less about the rest of the country.

Participation in this march will be seen as support for the completely self interested agenda of Begg and O'Connor. They dont represent me. They only represent themselves.

Nobody who has any interest in the future of this country ought to march with them. It would be utterly foolish to pretend this organisation gives a damn about Ireland or the Irish people.

mikemac

Unions have a place in Ireland, there are workers being badly treated and employment laws being broken. And a union can help here

But that's way overstepped now
In the last partnership talks they were bringing forward ideas on social welfare and social housing policies. Who elected them to do that? Maybe David Begg should take a risk and run as a TD

I'm amazed their members haven't made an issue over the top officials sitting on boards of FÁS and Central Bank and demanded they resign while pulling over 100k and bleating about the working man.

They can be valuable but step back and get back to what they were originally setup to do

20Cent

Sand wrote: »

Trade unions are a cartel which attempt to leverage their membership to feather their own nest at the expense of the rest of the country, and to disenfranchise the rest of the people of the country. Theres absolutely nothing democratic about them.

I see a place for trade unions to protect people from exploitation - I see no role whatsoever for the likes of Begg and O'Connor to sit on state boards and participate in negotiations with the elected representitive of this country as if they were equals.




And as already pointed out:

the. unions. couldnt. care. less. about. the. country.

They only care about themselves. They only get riled up when their pay is threatened. They only get out on the streets when the Croke Park deal is threatened.

They couldnt care less about the rest of the country.

Participation in this march will be seen as support for the completely self interested agenda of Begg and O'Connor. They dont represent me. They only represent themselves.

Nobody who has any interest in the future of this country ought to march with them. It would be utterly foolish to pretend this organisation gives a damn about Ireland or the Irish people.

Thats all opinion.
Which I disagree with.

You give unions way too much credit.
Anybody against FF's plans should get to this march, bring whatever banner you want, represent what you want, say what you want, but numbers need to get out for this is the last push.
Squabbling about what Begg did or did not do plays into FF's hands. Hopefully there will be a very large turnout.

Sir Oxman

Sand wrote: »

Trade unions are a cartel which attempt to leverage their membership to feather their own nest at the expense of the rest of the country, and to disenfranchise the rest of the people of the country. Theres absolutely nothing democratic about them.

I see a place for trade unions to protect people from exploitation - I see no role whatsoever for the likes of Begg and O'Connor to sit on state boards and participate in negotiations with the elected representitive of this country as if they were equals.




And as already pointed out:

the. unions. couldnt. care. less. about. the. country.

They only care about themselves. They only get riled up when their pay is threatened. They only get out on the streets when the Croke Park deal is threatened.

They couldnt care less about the rest of the country.

Participation in this march will be seen as support for the completely self interested agenda of Begg and O'Connor. They dont represent me. They only represent themselves.

Nobody who has any interest in the future of this country ought to march with them. It would be utterly foolish to pretend this organisation gives a damn about Ireland or the Irish people.

I totally disagree, Sand.
People have sat on their hands for too long, this is the last chance saloon as far as I am concerned. All I have left now is to show my disgust and anger and concern by taking to the streets. More than likely I won't get the chance to use my democratic right to vote out the criminals before they sign what's left of my future away to private banks in Europe.

I would urge Irishmen and Irishwomen to turn out in force on Saturday.
Don't let apathy and the fear you may be seen to support Begg or anyone else but yourself and your country.

kaiser sauze

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

Last time I checked, unions were comprised of people who work for a living. You're effectively saying that a bunch of irish taxpayers aren't entitled to a voice, because they banded together to serve a common interest.

I have no problem with people organising to ensure that workers' rights are upheld.

What I have a problem with is a cosy cartel being formed whose sole purpose is the enrichment of their members with no regard for the sovereign debt.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

As for David Begg, I'm not a fan myself, but it's his job to represent his members, who pay his wages, and it's for them to say if he has the authority, moral or otherwise to lead them.

They pay his wages and he is their leader, that's where his authority ends.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

The unions are in no way complicit in our economic crisis, they have never been identified by any serious analysis as a cause. It's the banks and the government.

If you just extrapolate your second cause that will lead you back to The Unions.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

If you want to say that it would be easier to run the country if the public sector had lower wages, that might be true. It would also be easier if nobody went shopping up north over the last 3 years. It'd be easier if everybody favoured Irish produce over imported. It'd be easier if rich investors had the imagination to put their money into something other than property. It'd be easier if lots of things were different.

This has nothing to do with Unions moral authority.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

I see the unions as they are, a bunch of people teaming up to get the best possible working conditions. That's just common sense, as employers, corporations in particular have it in their interest to give as little as possible. Anyone saying they ruin the place can go and hop in a time machine to the industrial revolution era britain, because they must really miss those working conditions.

If you finished this section with your first sentence, then I would have no problem with it, however, you went into the zone of enrichment I referred to earlier with the rest of it.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

I'm not part of a union, but I think my job would be a lot less palatable had the bar not been raised by organised labour. Wouldn't want to live in a world without them.

You don't need a Union these days to ensure your rights are upheld, there is very strong labour protection laws there.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

At the expense of the rest of society? Rarely. About 75% of the protest days over the last year were in the industrial sector. That's ESRI info I think. (I heard it on the radio, originally, and not Joe Duffy or anything). The public sector are lambasted because when they want better working conditions, it impacts the state. When the private sector strike for better working conditions, nobody cares.

When the public sector strike The Unions are using the hostage card, when a private sector worker strikes he does so at his peril.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

And your point does nothing to change the fact that "the unions" consists of hundreds of thousnads of irish workers, so I reject your "no". And I re-iterate, the unions have never been identified by any serious ananlysis as a cause of the current crisis. Our public sector has been habitually underfunded throughout the boom and after. Are some priveliged types overpaid? Yes, but we still spend less per head than most of our EU counterparts.

I don't know where to start here. You are seriously mis-informed.

The one point I will pick out is that you identified the Unions as part of the cause yourself earlier.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

I disagree. There will never be a single groupd that represents the whole country. Never. Anyone who claims to do so can only be a liar. And union action is not a disenfranchisement of the rest of the citizens, it's a human right guaranteed under the Geneve Convention. And say what you like, union members spend money more than their employers would had they not been forced to pay out more. That's money being recirculated and retaxed.

While I have no qualms with my tax money being spread around (some would call it income redistrbution) I do have a problem with Unions forcing employers into paying extortionate salaries to the level where I become uncomfortable with the redistribution.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

I don't agree with this attitude of "people in the private sector are getting pissed on, andf people in the public sector aren't, so public sector workerts must be bastards". They're not, private sector workers allow themselves to be exploited, because either they can't get anything better, their industry isn't unionisable (that's me), or they actually do very well. Despite that, they still benefit in numerous ways from the actions of unions.

Public sector workers are not being laid off, private sector workers have been in the droves.

I find your assertion that private sector workers allow themselves to be exploited to be both insulting and disingenuous.

If an employee comes to me and requests a pay rise they have to justify it; if they don't deserve it, they don't get it. There should be no such thing as automatic increments (a Union invention which is still going on in this time of 'pay-freezes').

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

And as it happens, right now a self-interested cartel is determining the economic and fiscal policy for the country, namely the IMF. And it is no way the responsibility of the unions, unless you can prove they all voted for Fianna Fáil.

I'm willing to bet a lot of them did in return for the fallacy that was benchmarking.

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

I'd say some have, some haven't. They're terribly misrepresented in the media though. For two main reasons, in my reckoning:

1. "Union and employer agree favourable terms as part of routine negotiations" doesn't make a catchy headline.
2. Right wing papers. Independent newspapers and the redtops combined.

Long story short, unions are all right, imo. They're not great, and there's some real dickheads out there, but they're a manifestation of democracy, not a host of angels. Expect to be pissed off sometimes, I do. I get get pissed off by anti-union polemic more often than pro-union polemic, based on the sheer volume of the former.

Perhaps the 'volume' you see is because the posters on Boards are enlightened to the sheltered class of the Unions?

20Cent wrote: »

No serious commentator or economist is blaming unions for this mess. It is amazing that as Ireland drowns in a sea of private debt made public some still feel the need to blame unions (for ideological rather than actual reasons imho).
There will be 80-100,000 people out on Saturday to protest this disgrace FF have brought on us. No other group could bring out numbers like that. Personal opinions of individual union members or leaders are immaterial everyone who can should be out on Saturday.

It is still unpopular in the media to admonish the Unions, eventually things will become clearer to the public once the fog of anger directed at FF dissipates.

20Cent wrote: »

Thats all opinion.
Which I disagree with.

You give unions way too much credit.
Anybody against FF's plans should get to this march, bring whatever banner you want, represent what you want, say what you want, but numbers need to get out for this is the last push.
Squabbling about what Begg did or did not do plays into FF's hands. Hopefully there will be a very large turnout.

I actually think he gives them too little credit.

Making Begg accountable for all the private enrichment schemes he had on the side is only fair at this stage. Did he ever say anything about the imminient property collapse? No, because he worked in The Central Bank.

20Cent

Every man woman and child in the country needs to march on Saturday. This is about more than private or public sector its about saving the damn country.

kaiser sauze

20Cent wrote: »

Every man woman and child in the country needs to march on Saturday. This is about more than private or public sector its about saving the damn country.

If this is about the future of the country then the Unions should disband and, ipso facto, excuse the government from the Croke Park Nightmare Fallacy Agreement.

20Cent

kaiser sauze wrote: »

If this is about the future of the country then the Unions should disband and, ipso facto, excuse the government from the Croke Park Nightmare Fallacy Agreement.

Croke Park, unions etc are all last weeks argument.
The fight now is for everybody.

mikemac

kaiser sauze wrote: »

You don't need a Union these days to ensure your rights are upheld, there is very strong labour protection laws there.

Maybe for some. What about the lad on the factory floor with zero self confidence getting bullied? Can he cope in a meeting with management on his own?

Ever work in a hotel? Where if you speak up you are not fired but your hours get slashed and your hours are given to the new hires.
"Sorry kaiser sauze, it's a quiet week and we have no work for you". Never mind the new hires got more hours then you!
You finish cleaning the ballroom at 4am and told to report for breakfast duty at 8am if you want to keep your job. Minimum rest periods? Ha!
There are blatant abuses of employment laws happening in Ireland. But unions seem more concerned with protecting their employees who pay regular subs then recruiting new members.

When in a hotel I tried to get a a Mandate rep in for us. Zero interest but they were happy to represent Dunnes Stores

Unions need to get back to what they were setup to do! Not sit on boards of the Central Bank and FÁS and pull over 100k in a salary while protecting the indefensible like workers getting time to cash cheques while they get paid by EFT.
Unions are to help workers in need and don't seem to doing a good job of it. Easier to get subs from staff in permanent employment

ISAW

20Cent wrote: »

Croke Park, unions etc are all last weeks argument.
The fight now is for everybody.

So if someone comes in and rips off the banks we should all forget about that and say "everybody needs to get this government out" ? Or if another army invades Ireland we should all say "what matters is we support the unions and get this government out"? WE should just forget about the CAUSE of the debt and you think a change of government will solve the huge hole in state finances created by over spending in public finances? Unions insisting on overly high pay and conditions have nothing to do with this and changing a government will solve it?

So what will the new government ( FF or FG or Lab or whoever) cut?
What will they tax more?

20Cent

ISAW wrote: »

So if someone comes in and rips off the banks we should all forget about that and say "everybody needs to get this government out" ? Or if another army invades Ireland we should all say "what matters is we support the unions and get this government out"? WE should just forget about the CAUSE of the debt and you think a change of government will solve the huge hole in state finances created by over spending in public finances? Unions insisting on overly high pay and conditions have nothing to do with this and changing a government will solve it?

So what will the new government ( FF or FG or Lab or whoever) cut?
What will they tax more?

Don't you realise that if we don't get FF out and default there won't be any Gov to do anything.

queensinead

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I have no problem with people organising to ensure that workers' rights are upheld.

What I have a problem with is a cosy cartel being formed whose sole purpose is the enrichment of their members with no regard for the sovereign debt.



They pay his wages and he is their leader, that's where his authority ends.



If you just extrapolate your second cause that will lead you back to The Unions.





You don't need a Union these days to ensure your rights are upheld, there is very strong labour protection laws there.



When the public sector strike The Unions are using the hostage card, when a private sector worker strikes he does so at his peril.

While I have no qualms with my tax money being spread around (some would call it income redistrbution) I do have a problem with Unions forcing employers into paying extortionate salaries to the level where I become uncomfortable with the redistribution.
Public sector workers are not being laid off, private sector workers have been in the droves.

I find your assertion that private sector workers allow themselves to be exploited to be both insulting and disingenuous.

If an employee comes to me and requests a pay rise they have to justify it; if they don't deserve it, they don't get it. There should be no such thing as automatic increments (a Union invention which is still going on in this time of 'pay-freezes').
I'm willing to bet a lot of them did in return for the fallacy that was benchmarking.
Perhaps the 'volume' you see is because the posters on Boards are enlightened to the sheltered class of the Unions?
It is still unpopular in the media to admonish the Unions, eventually things will become clearer to the public once the fog of anger directed at FF dissipates.I actually think he gives them too little credit.

Making Begg accountable for all the private enrichment schemes he had on the side is only fair at this stage. Did he ever say anything about the imminient property collapse? No, because he worked in The Central Bank.

As an employer you fear and dislike unions because they threaten your business and profits. Employees will often take a different view to employers because their two agendas are not identical, however much employers might like to pretend they are.
Employers want to get the best deal they can in business, charge what the market will bear, keep wages down. Many of us living in rip-off Ireland during the boom remember well what the market could bear.
Employees try to get the best deal too. If they have power through a union, they will push for the best wage available. For some reason this is considered "greedy" and "feathering their own nests" if employees do it.

Forget benchmarking. It was an increase in wages in the public sector chasing the high prices charged by the private sector--highest creche fees in Europe and so forth. The two paycuts have reversed benchmarking.

Begg and company sat on Bank boards and behaved badly. But the union members have nothing to be ashamed of.
It amazes me, in a week when we have all had our eyes opened to the greed and corruption of the banks and the vulture bond markets bringing countries down like dominoes, how people can still think the problem is the public sector and their unions. .

kaiser sauze

feelingstressed wrote: »

Maybe for some. What about the lad on the factory floor with zero self confidence getting bullied? Can he cope in a meeting with management on his own?

Ever work in a hotel? Where if you speak up you are not fired but your hours get slashed and your hours are given to the new hires.
"Sorry kaiser sauze, it's a quiet week and we have no work for you". Never mind the new hires got more hours then you!
You finish cleaning the ballroom at 4am and told to report for breakfast duty at 8am if you want to keep your job. Minimum rest periods? Ha!
There are blatant abuses of employment laws happening in Ireland. But unions seem more concerned with protecting their employees who pay regular subs then recruiting new members.

When in a hotel I tried to get a a Mandate rep in for us. Zero interest but they were happy to represent Dunnes Stores

Unions need to get back to what they were setup to do! Not sit on boards of the Central Bank and FÁS and pull over 100k in a salary while protecting the indefensible like workers getting time to cash cheques while they get paid by EFT.
Unions are to help workers in need and don't seem to doing a good job of it. Easier to get subs from staff in permanent employment

This is where Irish people need to develop their own backbone and stand up for themselves.

Many people in this country want everything spoonfed to them and 'accept' what happens because they feel that it might inconvenience someone or they might have not have time to sit down and have their wine and canapes in front of X-Factor due to having to prepare a case to a statutory body.

ISAW

feelingstressed wrote: »

Maybe for some. What about the lad on the factory floor with zero self confidence getting bullied? Can he cope in a meeting with management on his own?

dont know but the unions didn't do much for them when they were working in shipping companies did they?

And how many "factory floor" workers are there nowadays?
the unions we are talking about are public service unions. FEW of them work in factories on machines.

Ever work in a hotel? Where if you speak up you are not fired but your hours get slashed and your hours are given to the new hires.

Again how many of these are Public service workers?

"Sorry kaiser sauze, it's a quiet week and we have no work for you". Never mind the new hires got more hours then you!

Again not in public service! And such workers have rights which can be enforced without unions.

You finish cleaning the ballroom at 4am and told to report for breakfast duty at 8am if you want to keep your job. Minimum rest periods? Ha!

How many public servants had cases last year?

There are blatant abuses of employment laws happening in Ireland. But unions seem more concerned with protecting their employees who pay regular subs then recruiting new members.

It is called a "closed shop".

When in a hotel I tried to get a a Mandate rep in for us. Zero interest but they were happy to represent Dunnes Stores

Even there they spat out the window at Dunnes Stores Strikers. Now the same people are political icons referred to by the well heeled union leaders.

Unions need to get back to what they were setup to do! Not sit on boards of the Central Bank and FÁS and pull over 100k in a salary while protecting the indefensible like workers getting time to cash cheques while they get paid by EFT.

Yup.

Unions are to help workers in need and don't seem to doing a good job of it. Easier to get subs from staff in permanent employment

Indeed.

mikemac

Indeed, creche fees can cost over 900 euro a month.
But strangely the creche staff earn little over minimum wage

There is money is this business alright but it's taken by the owners and managers.
Not a bad thing but pay your staff a decent wage!

ISAW wrote: »

How many public servants had cases last year?

]

Well you broke down my post but I don't know anything about public servant conditions.
I gave my experience as a private sector worker so I can't realy reply to your post

All I'll say is SIPTU is the largest union in Ireland and they have more private sector members then public

Realy, the thread title is David Begg who represents Congress, unions are not just a public service issue

ISAW

queensinead wrote: »

As an employer you fear and dislike unions because they threaten your business and profits. Employees will often take a different view to employers because their two agendas are not identical, however much employers might like to pretend they are.
Employers want to get the best deal they can in business, charge what the market will bear, keep wages down. Many of us living in rip-off Ireland during the boom remember well what the market could bear.
Employees try to get the best deal too. If they have power through a union, they will push for the best wage available. For some reason this is considered "greedy" and "feathering their own nests" if employees do it.

Simplistic analysis. May employers (particularly in SME's) are community leaders and local family people. They are not just faceless conglomerates and corporates chasing profit.

Forget benchmarking. It was an increase in wages in the public sector chasing the high prices charged by the private sector--highest creche fees in Europe and so forth.

which is an argument for remembering benchmarking and NOT forgetting it!

The two paycuts have reversed benchmarking.

No that havent! Just last week I found a higher civil servants report and posted it here in another thread.
Linky:
http://www.reviewbody.gov.ie/


University heads cut pay by 15 per cent from 230k to 200 k . They were on 250k before that I think. Seems like a lot until you look at 2002-04 figures when they were on 100k! So even after two HUGE pay cuts they are on double wht they were 5 to 6 years ago.
Begg and company sat on Bank boards and behaved badly. But the union members have nothing to be ashamed of.

It amazes me, in a week when we have all had our eyes opened to the greed and corruption of the banks and the vulture bond markets bringing countries down like dominoes, how people can still think the problem is the public sector and their unions.

the markets are reacting to Ireland's ability to pay back a 16 billion debt. That will require cuts in spending. Now if you don't cut pay what else do you suggest we cut or tax?
Quite simply we have overpayed some people ( particularly higher paid people like union leaders who are linked to the higher levels of the civil service) and they need to be cut.

kaiser sauze

queensinead wrote: »

As an employer you fear and dislike unions because they threaten your business and profits.

Incorrect.

I have no reason to fear Unions as if I choose to ignore them, that's my prerogative. My employees are free to unionise, and some have, but I have told them that I will not entertain anything like what we have witnessed in the public sector.

queensinead wrote: »

Employees will often take a different view to employers because their two agendas are not identical, however much employers might like to pretend they are.

Is it in employees' interest to bankrupt his employer with unreasonable demands?

queensinead wrote: »

Employers want to get the best deal they can in business, charge what the market will bear, keep wages down.

If you mean underpay our staff, you misunderstand. It is about paying a reasonable rate for the work done.

queensinead wrote: »

Many of us living in rip-off Ireland during the boom remember well what the market could bear.

And if you do not understand the correlation between extortionate, bubble driven, wage demands and the boom then you are out of your depth in this discussion.

queensinead wrote: »

Employees try to get the best deal too. If they have power through a union, they will push for the best wage available. For some reason this is considered "greedy" and "feathering their own nests" if employees do it.

I have no problem with it as long as it does not turn into a benchmarking exercise.

queensinead wrote: »

Forget benchmarking. It was an increase in wages in the public sector chasing the high prices charged by the private sector--highest creche fees in Europe and so forth. The two paycuts have reversed benchmarking.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

We do not forget benchmarking, it happened. The Unions were behind it and our fawning Fianna Fáil led coalitions endorsed it/

The rises have not reversed it. Teachers have almost doubled their salaries, for example.

queensinead wrote: »

Begg and company sat on Bank boards and behaved badly. But the union members have nothing to be ashamed of.
It amazes me, in a week when we have all had our eyes opened to the greed and corruption of the banks and the vulture bond markets bringing countries down like dominoes, how people can still think the problem is the public sector and their unions. .

The public sector, and their Unions, are one part of the overall problem.

A large part of it, but noone said they were the only cause.

Buford T Justice

gambiaman wrote: »

People have sat on their hands for too long, this is the last chance saloon as far as I am concerned. All I have left now is to show my disgust and anger and concern by taking to the streets. More than likely I won't get the chance to use my democratic right to vote out the criminals before they sign what's left of my future away to private banks in Europe.

I would urge Irishmen and Irishwomen to turn out in force on Saturday.
Don't let apathy and the fear you may be seen to support Begg or anyone else but yourself and your country.

Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead being associated with the likes of David Begg or any of the trade unions in this country. You watch, once there is a whisper of the Croke Park agreement being under threat they will organize mass strikes in protest. Who does this effect? The general public, not the government. I can't see the logic of 'Yeah, lets protest and just cause problems for ourselves'.

Also note, the very fact that they went in and negotiated the CP agreement shows that they firmly believe that the Current Crisis should be resolved at any cost - except the jobs and wages of their members.

20Cent wrote: »

Don't you realise that if we don't get FF out and default there won't be any Gov to do anything.

Realistically, do you think the currently outgoing government is going to give a fiddlers what a group of people protesting outside the dáil on saturday is going to say? They have an idea in their head, and want to press on with it. They have nothing to lose by ignoring protesters.

Anyhow, almost all of the political parties want this budget passed. No one likes it, but they all know it has to be done. I disagree with the idea of these guys putting a 4 year plan in place, but there's not much can be done at the minute, as it looks like FG's vote of no confidence won't make the agenda. No amount of protesting on the streets is going to change that

ISAW

feelingstressed wrote: »

Indeed, creche fees can cost over 900 euro a month.
But strangely the creche staff earn little over minimum wage

Yeah say 30 kids 27,000 a month seems a lot

and the owners wil lsay a lot is taken up in property rental and admin. By the way due to health and safety babies require a three to one ratio and older children six to one I think. This means if you have 30 babies it requires 10 staff. You may need an additional two in case there is a sickness or someone does not come in and you also need management to cover twelve staff. so that's say eight hours at 8 euro an hour =64 times twelve 770 plus the management say 25 an hour times sixteen = 400

1170 a day - 5580 a week - about 25 k a month
Plus daily food and rent - not much left out of 27 k

And you havent even paid yourself or added in rent
And that is on minimum wage for 80 per cent of the staff (including you) !

Lets sack the management an cut the staff to ten. Ill manage it myself and ill have to cover if anyone gets sick. But that means nobody can leave the place if anyone has to take a kid to the doctor etc. so what? Still 16 k a month wage bill. No health and safety or management. Big risks being taken. I dont know would 5k a month be much for rent?
thats 6k left to pay for food part time staff to fill in any vacancies form sickness. cleaners. Nappies and other expenses? Heating? It doesn't seem so lucrative to me.
If you own the building maybe. Or if you deal with older kids at a six to one ratio. But then you have higher training requirements and childcare certs and Montessori etc. and the consequent higher rates of pay.

There is money is this business alright but it's taken by the owners and managers.
Not a bad thing but pay your staff a decent wage!

i cant disagree with that. But my back of the envelope analysis suggests again that property owners renting space are the ones who benefit most from this business.

Well you broke down my post but I don't know anything about public servant conditions.
I gave my experience as a private sector worker so I can't realy reply to your post

Maybe but the point was about Public pay not hotel workers! Public servants don't get anything near as low pay or work as hard as you
do.

All I'll say is SIPTU is the largest union in Ireland and they have more private sector members then public

And what does the P in SIPTU stand for? It is "professional" not public by the way.

Butlook here:
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/circulars/circular2009/circ282009.pdf

SIPTU represent the people on he lower end and if they are not getting much then I dnt begrudge them.

Oddly enough

http://www.siptu.ie/Resources/SalaryScales/

dont say how much SIPTU officials get paid.

If you are a member why don't you ask them?

James Connolly didn't get the sort of pay Jack o Connor gets.

thebman

feelingstressed wrote: »

Maybe for some. What about the lad on the factory floor with zero self confidence getting bullied? Can he cope in a meeting with management on his own?

Ever work in a hotel? Where if you speak up you are not fired but your hours get slashed and your hours are given to the new hires.
"Sorry kaiser sauze, it's a quiet week and we have no work for you". Never mind the new hires got more hours then you!
You finish cleaning the ballroom at 4am and told to report for breakfast duty at 8am if you want to keep your job. Minimum rest periods? Ha!
There are blatant abuses of employment laws happening in Ireland. But unions seem more concerned with protecting their employees who pay regular subs then recruiting new members.

When in a hotel I tried to get a a Mandate rep in for us. Zero interest but they were happy to represent Dunnes Stores

Unions need to get back to what they were setup to do! Not sit on boards of the Central Bank and FÁS and pull over 100k in a salary while protecting the indefensible like workers getting time to cash cheques while they get paid by EFT.
Unions are to help workers in need and don't seem to doing a good job of it. Easier to get subs from staff in permanent employment

What you are seeing is the corruption of unions over the years. There is no money in protecting the worker on minimum wage. The big money is getting excessive deals for already well paid workers who will continue to pay their union fees as long as you fight for more for them (such is the nature of a union to fight for more as otherwise nobody would continue to pay fees).

Trade Unions are supposed to be small and at a company/small industry level. When you have national unions or unions for entire sectors you have instant abuse and corruption like this as the government will not ignore them as they have too many members whose opinions they can influence by issuing political directives to their members which has nothing to really do with the union except to use it as a means to blackmail. The government will not ignore this group as it is a significant percentage of voters.

That is what is wrong with the Irish trade unions. It is not really a problem with all trade unions just these Irish ones.

I would suggest that public sector workers should not be allowed join a union as they work for the state. This is a democracy and they already have a trade union as they can contact their TD's and use their vote to elect the person that will treat them best. The unions actually serve no purpose for public sector workers except to try to get them additional payments through blackmail and tarnish the workers reputations in the media through trying to protect obsolete terms like cashing cheques time.

State bodies do not mistreat workers and if they do then contacting your local representatives would be enough, you do not need a trade union for this unless your looking for conditions above what is sustainable which is the only reason a politician would not give public sector more pay rises and time off etc... It is in the politicians interest to hire more public servants and pay them better already.

Realistically the state should never have been allowed to hire like this and you'd aware contracts to private sector companies to do this work that todays public servants would work for and if a company performed badly, the state could just award it to another company the following year avoiding low productivity and ballooning department budgets.

Mervyn Crawford

The issue goes beyond that of the moral authority of the unions.

In fact, the question is the complicity of the unions in keeping the billionaires economic system alive.

The unions are a police force for the super-rich.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/nov2010/pers-n24.shtml

The common man and woman need to organise. There is no doubt about that. However, the unions are not the answer. They are the problem.
As is any political group of the 'Left' that promotes illusions in 'reforming' the unions.

ISAW

20Cent wrote: »

Don't you realise that if we don't get FF out and default there won't be any Gov to do anything.

Don't you realise that the constitution is still in operation? Don't you realise that ANY government which we are likely to get in the coming three years will do almost exactly the same with finances? Maybe a change of parties won't be as driven as much by the civil service but I seriously doubt it.

Sir Oxman

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

The issue goes beyond that of the moral authority of the unions.

In fact, the question is the complicity of the unions in keeping the billionaires economic system alive.

The unions are a police force for the super-rich.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/nov2010/pers-n24.shtml

The common man and woman need to organise. There is no doubt about that. However, the unions are not the answer. They are the problem.
As is any political group of the 'Left' that promotes illusions in 'reforming' the unions.

This will not happen.

ISAW

thebman wrote: »

Trade Unions are supposed to be small and at a company/small industry level. When you have national unions or unions for entire sectors you have instant abuse and corruption like this.... It is not really a problem with all trade unions just these Irish ones.

The union bosses eat in the same Michellin Star restaurants as the business bosses. they have large houses and several properties down the country or abroad just like the businessmen. they are in the same golf and yacht clubs. They are on the same salary in the same class. they are not working class. How are they so different?

thebman

ISAW wrote: »

The union bosses eat in the same Michellin Star restaurants as the business bosses. they have large houses and several properties down the country or abroad just like the businessmen. they are in the same golf and yacht clubs. They are on the same salary in the same class. they are not working class. How are they so different?

The business owner took the financial risk to setup the company that produces the profit.

The union leader of a national trade union just yells how it is unfair from the sidelines while demanding his members pay him an equal salary to that of the business owner.

They are both essentially businesses, the union is an unsustainable business model as eventually everyone gets tired of them yelling, even their own members and there are no more concessions to be won from the employer as he has gone bankrupt.

Gunmonkey

I find it kinda odd to say the unions have the best intrests of the nation at heart with the whole "Get FF Out" march when for the past 2 years there has been nought a peep out of them except when their payments were gonna be cut.

Very coincidental when theres blood in the water over FF standing down and an election pushing back both the budget (that will hopefully tear the grossly overpayed part of the public sector a new one) and the IMF (who will tear all the public sector a new one) and now a "Solidarity march" for all people concerned over FF's handling of the country arises, under the guise of standing up for everybody in this country.

Just odd is all.

ISAW

thebman wrote: »

The business owner took the financial risk to setup the company that produces the profit.

In many cases they didnt! They just inherited the company from their father.

The union leader of a national trade union just yells how it is unfair from the sidelines while demanding his members pay him an equal salary to that of the business owner.

Yeah. so? so do lawyers. and bankers. and doctors. and regulators. And complaince executives.

They are both essentially businesses, the union is an unsustainable business model as eventually everyone gets tired of them yelling, even their own members and there are no more concessions to be won from the employer as he has gone bankrupt.

Indeed and should we also not have lawyers and compliance people?

ISAW

Gunmonkey wrote: »

I find it kinda odd to say the unions have the best intrests of the nation at heart with the whole "Get FF Out" march when for the past 2 years there has been nought a peep out of them except when their payments were gonna be cut.

And AFAIK unions make or encourage payments to Political Parties ( the Labour party in particular)