I am proud of my country, but humiliated by my Government

johngalway

Proud of our history, proud of our people.

Humiliated by stupid decisions of a minority of elected fools.

Cast blame where it's due, but be proud of our country.

johnnyskeleton

johngalway wrote: »

Proud of our history, proud of our people.

Humiliated by stupid decisions of a minority of elected fools.

Cast blame where it's due, but be proud of our country.

I don't think it is entirely correct to blame everything on the politicians, although they do get the lions share of the blame.

gaz wac

johngalway wrote: »

Proud of our history, proud of our people.

Humiliated by stupid decisions of a minority of elected fools.

Cast blame where it's due, but be proud of our country.

blame us...we put them there!

PeterIanStaker

Well said OP. I'm not going in for this "collective responsibility" nonsense. I have never voted for these idiots, I don't buy their newspapers, never believed their lies.
I believe two contradictory things:
1) We are better than this
2) We will be let down over and over again.

MRPRO03

johngalway wrote: »

Proud of our history, proud of our people.

Humiliated by stupid decisions of a minority of elected fools.

Cast blame where it's due, but be proud of our country.

Who just sit back and let things happen, no passion at all shown by us, we are as bad as them for letting them get this far. We complain for 2 years to get rid of them and yet we still let them continue to make policies that ruined this once proud nation.

starbelgrade

"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

John F. Kennedy

Dean820

Can we not put a special section for anything to do with the recession/IMF/we're screwed/hating/being proud of Ireland threads? There's even a Christmas section for crying out loud! I come online to escape this stuff.

Jesus Wept

'Every country has the government it deserves.'

Joseph Marie de Maistre

Not a quote I was familiar with until recently, it is entirely apt in this case.
Many small minded people and a small minded and corrupt leadership and a frankly retarded small minded political setup.

johngalway

My belief, and maybe my hope, is that collectively we were lied to.

Get on the property ladder or be ridiculed.

Sure things were/will never be better.

Look. I find it hard to blame yer wan in Dublin for buying the half million apartment. I genuinely feel sorry for her, I genuinely despise FF.

I had a conversation with a man today, he is putting a sign on his gate that FF canvassers need not visit his house. I have a hell of a lot to say to them, regardless.

Where is the rebel spirit?

Is it a myth?

WTF have we become?

This time is where we are, learn from it and prosper. We cannot afford to live in blame.

Get on with it. Get your ideas out there. We have a huge proportion of smart people. Heads of Ryanair, BA, and Quantas I believe are all Irish.

Stop treating the Yanks as War criminals, they're some of our best friends in the world.

Get with the friggin' programme people. We're not rich, we never were. We had a lot of friends in the world and can have them again, just stop living up our own collective arses for God's sake.

Augmerson

Alot of people talking about it not being their fault which is true, but we didn't do enough ourselves to give our politicians a proper kick up the arse because as we now know they made questionable decisions which crippled us later on but we will live and learn i believe.

starbelgrade

johngalway wrote: »

My belief, and maybe my hope, is that collectively we were lied to.

Get on the property ladder or be ridiculed.

Sure things were/will never be better.

Look. I find it hard to blame yer wan in Dublin for buying the half million apartment. I genuinely feel sorry for her, I genuinely despise FF.

I had a conversation with a man today, he is putting a sign on his gate that FF canvassers need not visit his house. I have a hell of a lot to say to them, regardless.

Where is the rebel spirit?

Is it a myth?

WTF have we become?

This time is where we are, learn from it and prosper. We cannot afford to live in blame.

Get on with it. Get your ideas out there. We have a huge proportion of smart people. Heads of Ryanair, BA, and Quantas I believe are all Irish.

Stop treating the Yanks as War criminals, they're some of our best friends in the world.

Get with the friggin' programme people. We're not rich, we never were. We had a lot of friends in the world and can have them again, just stop living up our own collective arses for God's sake.

They should get you in for the audience in Frontline. They love rants like that on the show. A real crowd pleaser.

Jesus Wept

johngalway wrote: »

Stop treating the Yanks as War criminals, they're some of our best friends in the world.

They can be both.

johngalway

Look. We as a nation cannot get by on blame. It won't put food on our tables. We need to get on with reality as it is. We need to get away from the fallacy that was the cancer myth of the celtic tiger and rejoin the rest of the world. This bull****ting each other isn't good enough.

We don't have leaders, so we need to lead ourselves by examples. Start your ideas, be the trailblazers. Don't give in to the need to be led by the nose.

johngalway

starbelgrade wrote: »

They should get you in for the audience in Frontline. They love rants like that on the show. A real crowd pleaser.

So what's not true about it?

starbelgrade

johngalway wrote: »

So what's not true about it?

I didn't say that it wasn't true, just that it was a rant. There's no harm in expressing anger.

johngalway

Fair enough then And yes, I am angry. Angry my country, my future, has been sold down the river by a bunch of crooks. Steaming, hopping mad.

Jesus Wept

Ok, aside from honest politicians, here is what I want:

I want intelligent qualified people whom are the experts in their area to be in charge of the various government departments.
You can increase their salary 10, 20, or 100x for all I care if they are the best people for the job, not random career politicians.

For example, I don't want lawyer after lawyer as our finance minster, ffs, I want economists, the best we can get.

The same goes for the other departments. And stop shuffling them about every few years. You don't take Lionel Messi and stick him in goals for a couple of seasons so he can 'have a go'.

What I don't want is this small minded constituency based bull**** whereby people get into power by knocking on doors, being from a family of politicians, sorting out medical cards, getting trees moved and other bollox to garner votes.

I want the smartest people in each department to address the nation on television when they want my support, not at my door. I don't need to shake their hand, I don't need them to kiss babies and I don't give a shite whether or not I'd go for a pint with them.

And I don't care if the are Irish either, I care that they are the best at what they do and that they are honest and properly incentivised.

This is some of what I want.

johngalway

Value for money.

Someone who can stand up and say "The buck stops here".

Accountability, transparency. We're all human, we all make mistakes. Just spare us the bullshít.

K-9

starbelgrade wrote: »

"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

John F. Kennedy

Time to reverse the habit of a generation.

America ignored it, look where they are? Look where we are.

Look at Germany, Sweden etc.

Unfortunately they are a long term, 50 year project.


Give us 10 years and the Boston or Berlin debate will spring up again. and Berlin will be seen as the bad guy, Boston the ideal.

Mr Marston

Are you locked?

K-9

The-Rigger wrote: »

For example, I don't want lawyer after lawyer as our finance minster, ffs, I want economists, the best we can get.

Our best ever Finance Minister wasn't an economist, nowhere near it.
He didn't have a University degree either, nor a Leaving Cert.

You know what he did have?

Balls.

Balls to stand up to Charlie Haughey, his leader and balls to implement what Garrett Fitzgerald, the economist and intellectual preached about in power and did zilch.

There is nobody of Ray McSharry's kind in any party in this Dail.

johngalway

Mr Marston wrote: »

Are you locked?

Yes.

But ask me the same question tomorrow evening when I'm not.

I may not give you the same answer as passionately, but I am genuinely proud of the people I know, I am genuinely proud of the businesses and opportunities they create, I am in awe of some of them. We have a huge number of genuinely smart people here, right here in this country who are legislated against by the dead wood, plod along go nowhere, no hopers.

Yes, be proud of being Irish. Yes be proud of Ireland. We are bloody unique in this world. This part of our history is a shame indeed, the trick is that we as a people need to learn from it.

DO NOT BE IN AWE of your elected official. Hold them accountable , question them instead of joining them. Make damn sure they represent what you believe in and that they are not giving you some píss porr sleven answer.

Be responsible, be a God damn adult.

OPENROAD

johngalway wrote: »

Yes.

But ask me the same question tomorrow evening when I'm not.

I may not give you the same answer as passionately, but I am genuinely proud of the people I know, I am genuinely proud of the businesses and opportunities they create, I am in awe of some of them. We have a huge number of genuinely smart people here, right here in this country who are legislated against by the dead wood, plod along go nowhere, no hopers.

Yes, be proud of being Irish. Yes be proud of Ireland. We are bloody unique in this world. This part of our history is a shame indeed, the trick is that we as a people need to learn from it.

DO NOT BE IN AWE of your elected official. Hold them accountable , question them instead of joining them. Make damn sure they represent what you believe in and that they are not giving you some píss porr sleven answer.

Be responsible, be a God damn adult.

Everyone on the planet is unique

gaz wac

gaz wac wrote: »

blame us...we put them there!

Bollocks. I never voted for those greedy, corrupt, self serving feckers. Yet because 40- 50 % of the population were apparently suffering from mental retardation in 2007 I have no future in this country.

starbelgrade

OPENROAD wrote: »

Everyone on the planet is unique

Maybe so, but Ireland has Unique Boutique.

Or at least we did, last time I was in Henry Street Shopping Centre.

Though, come to think of it - that was probably about 10 years ago.

johngalway

OPENROAD wrote: »

Everyone on the planet is unique

Yes, exactly!

Collectively, we're different from our neighbours. Then, we're all different from each other as individuals. The collective difference is what we market, the individual difference is what we revel in. That's the surprise for the foreign visitor, and indeed the native visitor. We. Are. Irish. 4 point something million of us. Look at what we've done, Kennedys, Guiness, U2.

'Sake, as a people we've done a hell of a lot. Work that, be proud of that. As individuals we create the magic that is Ireland, talk to the foreigners, don't just see then as € signs.

I take each and every opportunity to talk to foreigners that I can. One man in his 70's, whom I respect more than most, preaches Conamara. He's attempted to climb the highest mountain in South America three times. He climbed Mt Blanc inJune, but fúck me, what he peaches is Conamara, the region in which he lives. Be proud of your area, promote it, be proud of who you are!

Screw the Govt. Scre the Eu, IMF, and IOU's. We as a people don't need any of them. We sink or swim together.

Jesus Wept

K-9 wrote: »

Our best ever Finance Minister wasn't an economist, nowhere near it.
He didn't have a University degree either, nor a Leaving Cert.

You know what he did have?

Balls.

Balls to stand up to Charlie Haughey, his leader and balls to implement what Garrett Fitzgerald, the economist and intellectual preached about in power and did zilch.

There is nobody of Ray McSharry's kind in any party in this Dail.

I'll take your word on it and good for him, and good on him.

However, it always grates on me when I hear 'some of the best <insert job/skillset> had no qualifications and/or history!!', etc.

Yes, some, there will always be the occasional anomalies however they are in the minority and it is not a good way to appoint personnel to some of the most important jobs in the country, or anywhere tbh.
It's the fast track to ruination.
For every occasional unqualified appointee who turns out to be a superstar, you get a huge bunch of stupid corrupt unqualified and uncaring cretins.

Glenster

I am proud of my rabble, but humiliated by my rabble.

rabble.

johngalway

I wonder about this sometimes.

My Dad is also a sheep farmer. Healways saw the merit in producing that £50 lamb, rather than the £10 lamb and living on the cheque in the post.

Morality in a situation is, in my opinion, what separates the righteous from those who have, morally done wrong.

That may sound like some out dated script, but practicality will always add value to a situation when glamour and illusion have long since failed to put food on the table.

johngalway

Glenster wrote: »

I am proud of my rabble, but humiliated by my rabble.

rabble.

Then, you need to find a new rabble, young glasshopper.

Glenster

johngalway wrote: »

I wonder about this sometimes.

My Dad is also a sheep farmer. Healways saw the merit in producing that £50 lamb, rather than the £10 lamb and living on the cheque in the post.

Morality in a situation is, in my opinion, what separates the righteous from those who have, morally done wrong.

That may sound like some out dated script, but practicality will always add value to a situation when glamour and illusion have long since failed to put food on the table.

Where's the morality in slaughtering baby animals and feasting on their flesh?

Aka Ishur

Glenster wrote: »

Where's the morality in slaughtering baby animals and feasting on their flesh?

It's in the mint sauce.

krudler

Glenster wrote: »

Where's the morality in slaughtering baby animals and feasting on their flesh?

Its not our fault their flesh is fcuking delicious.

johnmcdnl

We all know who's the blame for this crisis - bankers developers and several corrupt politicians - we all know who they are and hopefully the history books will record them in the same light as any other traitor to this state...

They've lost us our dignity and respect among the nations of the earth - that small band of say 100-1000 people.. even smaller again for the main players...

if the leaders of 1916 were to see what these men have done to our nation - if gratton, wolfe tone, parnell, emmet, pearse, collins, were to see a vision into modern ireland perhaps they've have abandoned there hopes and ambitions to free ireland - god knows we'd probably be better off - it cuts me inside to say that but when you see the state of our country today I can't help but think it's true...

The coruption of the few has brought our country to it's knees but I just hope the people of Ireland can stand strong and maybe one day have the country run by people who are there for the nation's interests and not to line their own silken pockets

ArmaniJeanss

The-Rigger wrote: »

I want intelligent qualified people whom are the experts in their area to be in charge of the various government departments.
You can increase their salary 10, 20, or 100x for all I care if they are the best people for the job, not random career politicians.

For example, I don't want lawyer after lawyer as our finance minster, ffs, I want economists, the best we can get.

OK, so most people on AH want politicians salaries cut to the bone, average industrial wage or something, before they (Joe Soap) accept pay cuts themselves.
Meanwhile you are suggesting we pay SlasherMcBasher, the bestest economist in the country, €5M a year to sort the country out - the same SlasherMcBasher who has such little social skills that he has never stood for an election in his life because he knows no-one would vote for him.
Do you not think that when SMB puts forward his doubtless completely sensible budget that people will be complaining about how he has 'no democratic mandate', is 'hurting the most vulnerable in society' and if cuts need to be made then his €5M salary ought to be where we start?

In fairness what you are suggesting has precedents worldwide, Singapore pays it politicians 7 figure salaries in order to get the best people involved at the highest level - and the USA has a system where people can end up in the Top10 positions of government without ever putting their name on a ballot paper.

But I'd suggest though that in Ireland if it came down to people actually voting for this system in a constitutional amendment that it would be rejected by about 95%-5%.

ArmaniJeanss

johnmcdnl wrote: »

if the leaders of 1916 were to see what these men have done to our nation - if gratton, wolfe tone, parnell, emmet, pearse, collins, were to see a vision into modern ireland perhaps they've have abandoned there hopes and ambitions to free ireland - god knows we'd probably be better off - it cuts me inside to say that but when you see the state of our country today I can't help but think it's true...

What about Connolly, please don't forget JC. He's more than a train station you know.

K-9

The-Rigger wrote: »

I'll take your word on it and good for him, and good on him.

However, it always grates on me when I hear 'some of the best <insert job/skillset> had no qualifications and/or history!!', etc.

Yes, some, there will always be the occasional anomalies however they are in the minority and it is not a good way to appoint personnel to some of the most important jobs in the country, or anywhere tbh.
It's the fast track to ruination.
For every occasional unqualified appointee who turns out to be a superstar, you get a huge bunch of stupid corrupt unqualified and uncaring cretins.

It always grates me, when people assume you have to be an economist to be a good Minister for Finance.

The last situation we had close to this, a Minister for Finance who didn't have a Leaving Cert got us out of it.

The previous Government before that had a good few economists and many a great mind, Fitzgerald, Dukes, Shatters etc. and made the situation worse. Also had many decent and honorable politicians like Bruton. They just waffled and waffled and deliberated and deliberated like economists do.

randylonghorn

starbelgrade wrote: »

"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

John F. Kennedy

A philosophy which, unfortunately, lost even more ground during the years of the infirm and bloated Celtic Pussy.

Not sure too many politicians believed in it anyway ... a couple of names do come to mind who I would feel might have believed in it, but unsurprisingly they never made it to the top.

Jesus Wept

K-9 wrote: »

It always grates me, when people assume you have to be an economist to be a good Minister for Finance.

The last situation we had close to this, a Minister for Finance who didn't have a Leaving Cert got us out of it.

The previous Government before that had a good few economists and many a great mind, Fitzgerald, Dukes, Shatters etc. and made the situation worse. Also had many decent and honorable politicians like Bruton. They just waffled and waffled and deliberated and deliberated like economists do.

I didn't assume it, I clearly stated that in most walks of life there will be a small number of unqualified individuals who excel at a given job or skill.
But they are untypical. And tbh, I would be happy to have them as Minister for Finance if they had zero qualifications but had a sparkling undeniable record of success.

We employ people for the role who have neither.

So what is your point? That we should continue to hire people with no leaving cert to run our economy because occasionally we'll uncover a rough diamond?

Play the odds.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

OK, so most people on AH want politicians salaries cut to the bone, average industrial wage or something, before they (Joe Soap) accept pay cuts themselves.
Meanwhile you are suggesting we pay SlasherMcBasher, the bestest economist in the country, €5M a year to sort the country out - the same SlasherMcBasher who has such little social skills that he has never stood for an election in his life because he knows no-one would vote for him.

Yes, because I for one don't give a crap about their social skills.
Like I said, I don't care if they are as dull as dishwater if they are the best at their job, in fact, it's probably even better that way.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Do you not think that when SMB puts forward his doubtless completely sensible budget that people will be complaining about how he has 'no democratic mandate', is 'hurting the most vulnerable in society' and if cuts need to be made then his €5M salary ought to be where we start?

In fairness what you are suggesting has precedents worldwide, Singapore pays it politicians 7 figure salaries in order to get the best people involved at the highest level - and the USA has a system where people can end up in the Top10 positions of government without ever putting their name on a ballot paper.

But I'd suggest though that in Ireland if it came down to people actually voting for this system in a constitutional amendment that it would be rejected by about 95%-5%.

I agree with you, I didn't say it was what I expected to happen, just what I would like to see.

I know the electorate are too retarded to change to a system full of people who are there on the merit of their abilities and records as opposed to them being a sweet talking cute hoor who can work the system.

It's a stupid country as I said, imo.

Am I the only one a little worried that the mod of the Shooting forum, therefore leader of one of the largest groups of legal gun owners in the country, is wondering where our rebel spirit went to?

Only kidding john!

please don't kill me.



Seriously, I'd usually rail against another recession thread, but I'm as p*ssed off as the rest of ye in these times.

K-9

The-Rigger wrote: »

I didn't assume it, I clearly stated that in most walks of life there will be a small number of unqualified individuals who excel at a given job or skill.
But they are untypical. And tbh, I would be happy to have them as Minister for Finance if they had zero qualifications but had a sparkling undeniable record of success.

We employ people for the role who have neither.

So what is your point? That we should continue to hire people with no leaving cert to run our economy because occasionally we'll uncover a rough diamond?

Sorry, I was replying to YOUR post:

The-Rigger wrote:

Ok, aside from honest politicians, here is what I want:

I want intelligent qualified people whom are the experts in their area to be in charge of the various government departments.
You can increase their salary 10, 20, or 100x for all I care if they are the best people for the job, not random career politicians.

For example, I don't want lawyer after lawyer as our finance minster, ffs, I want economists, the best we can get.

The same goes for the other departments. And stop shuffling them about every few years. You don't take Lionel Messi and stick him in goals for a couple of seasons so he can 'have a go'.

What I don't want is this small minded constituency based bull**** whereby people get into power by knocking on doors, being from a family of politicians, sorting out medical cards, getting trees moved and other bollox to garner votes.

I want the smartest people in each department to address the nation on television when they want my support, not at my door. I don't need to shake their hand, I don't need them to kiss babies and I don't give a shite whether or not I'd go for a pint with them.

And I don't care if the are Irish either, I care that they are the best at what they do and that they are honest and properly incentivised.

This is some of what I want.

We had some of the best economists in Finance. Dukes in the early 80's as a Minister for Finance, an economist and Fitzgerald as Taoiseach, an economist. They still fecked it up, made a bad situation worse.

An economist isn't necessarily the best person for the Minister for Finance as McSharry proved.

We probably should put Morgan Kelly in there now, but he'd be dogmatic about it, his particular dogma. You'd swear economists were all the same or something and all good!

Just like politicians, economists have beliefs, otherwise you wouldn't have so many differences of opinion in economics.

Jesus Wept

Of course, 'an economist' doesn't equal an automatic fix, but it's a step in the right direction and they're typically going to be a better fit for the job than someone unqualified and unproven imo.
In an ideal world, we could get the best economists - perhaps a small team of economists to confer, if that would work.

While my knowledge of economics and economists is pretty limited, there are those whom I respect and typically agree with their views and logic.

tallaght01

Glenster wrote: »

Where's the morality in slaughtering baby animals and feasting on their flesh?

Not to mention ambushing them and shooting them.

myflipflops

K-9 wrote: »

Sorry, I was replying to YOUR post:

We had some of the best economists in Finance. Dukes in the early 80's as a Minister for Finance, an economist and Fitzgerald as Taoiseach, an economist. They still fecked it up, made a bad situation worse.
.

Decisions made in the 1980's led to the genuine economic boom in the 1990's. An economic recovery based on genuine good business dealings.

It was Pairic White as Chairmas of the IDA and Ray MacSharry as Minister for Finance who chose to focus on foreign investment and generally put in place the foundations for the turn around in the Irish economy. This happened about 1987. Fiscal discipline was the order of the day. When was the last time anyone used that phrase??

Personally I just hope in the next election that people vote with their brains. A 11% approval rating nationwide for Cowan is not important when people in Donegal will vote for the walking disgrace that is Mary Coughlan because she showed up at their nieces 21st birthday or vote for any other politician around the country based on irrelevant, local social topics.

I fear for the country. I don't believe we have the people in politics with the ability to turn this around. Too many teachers able to kiss babies and not enough substance.

Pompey Magnus

I don't go for this "The Irish people aren't at fault, they were lied to" excuse. The citizens of a state should take responsibility for their decisions, they should do a bit of homework and not take the word of their elected representatives as Gospel.

The truth was out there if they had the inclination and go find it, there are people who didn't fall for the Celtic Tiger hype, people who actually used their brain and realised it was a sham. Those people can hold their head's high, but the one's who were taking a couple of foreign holiday's every year, buying their big new cars every other year, who were getting in on the property ladder at any price, they can't now turn around and use the "we were lied to" by the government excuse, they might convince themselves in their own mind that this is true, but I give it as much validity as Fianna Fail claiming "we were lied to" by the banks. You heard what you wanted to hear and couldn't be bothered looking any deeper.

Mister men

I'm not proud of our people. Lemmings just look at Lisbon 2.

Turtyturd

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

What about Connolly, please don't forget JC. He's more than a train station you know.

He's a hospital too.

CDfm

Yes to Ireland for voting in politicians who spent their way into recession.

We voted them in.

Son Of A Vidic

starbelgrade wrote: »

"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

John F. Kennedy

Or how Fianna Fail have been interpreting it

"Ask not what I should give to my country; but rather what I can Rape from it for myself."

scientific1982

Not too keen on this "well we voted for them so we're to blame" ****e. People vote for politicians on good faith. They trust that they'll do whats best for their area and the country as a whole.

CDfm

scientific1982 wrote: »

Not too keen on this "well we voted for them so we're to blame" ****e. People vote for politicians on good faith. They trust that they'll do whats best for their area and the country as a whole.

During the last election all political parties had programmes for government based on constant growth and spending.

The unions had campaigned on issues, interest groups and lobby groups campaigned on issues and the social partnership and Ireland operated on the basis that this would not happen.

After we joined the euro - the issues were fairly well known and a leaving cert economics student would understand the economics. International economists openly warned about our economic policies.

( I am a trained economist and dont work in the area but if I knew it those working for the Civil Service, Banks and Unions knew it)

A politicians obligatin is to get re-elected. In the same way the nurses unions obligation is to get the best deal for their members and has nothing to do with health care.

Its very idealistic to believe in altruism but a career politician does give the people what they want and thats how they get elected. They are good news bears. During the last election a politician who advocated cutting spending would have been unelectable.

So, if an electorate believes there is an infinite amount of money then eventually the bubble will burst. Thats what happened.