Mainstream Ireland now anti-EU?

Avgas

Given recent events has mainstream Ireland now flipped to an anti-EU position?

Just use the recent Irish Times editorial as a bell weather-"is it for this?"

Never mind nuanced and complex facts which might suggest 'but for the EU', the way it looks for many people is that the EU has taken over the country's entire economic policy.

The link being made with 'giving up our 12.5% corporate tax rate' is deeply damaging for our long term view of, and relationship with, the EU. Most Irish people see it as bullying us when we are down in the gutter. We were told for Lisbon 2 that the Corporate Tax was 'untouchable'. [never mind that it might actually be a bad policy-leave aside]

The large and mostly middle class public service will also likely associate EU/IMF with an impending tear-up of the Croke Park agreement. Will they ever vote for an EU referendum again?

Some business people/commentators now associate the Euro and the policies of the ECB with our problems-the story line goes: the Euro gave us too much easy credit and cheap money...we'd be better off with Sterling/Gold Sovereigns, etc. Such arguments are for the most part laughable-[although being able to devalue your own currency has helped Sweden no end inside the EU] ....but they've gone mainstream-a worrying trend.

So what are we looking at here?

A Greenland scenario-we are heading towards Exit/leaving the EU?
A little Englander scenario-we eventually leave the Euro and/or become more Eurosceptic than the Brits or Danes.....and a very difficult member state?
And what if our Supreme Court rule following Crotty that we need another referendum to approve what is more or less a total re-writing of Article 125 disguised as a technical adjustment?

Cent, penny or gold dust for your thoughts?

Martin 2

Selective quoting, highly biased conclusions, distortion of facts, no surveys or other scientific measures of opinion - a very poor post from an obvious euroskeptic.

Scofflaw

Let's see - following a generation of EU funding, we finally managed to achieve prosperity through becoming a semi-tax haven parasitic on the larger EU economies - whereupon we blew up an unsustainable property bubble with pro-bubble national policies (tax breaks for building houses, mortgage relief, etc). That in turn allowed our banks to swell to a size where the state actually can't manage them - by making loans to the extent of several times our GDP without assets to match because the government failed to regulate them. Other euro countries somehow managed not to do this, whereas places like Iceland did exactly the same as us.

Those same banks, which are now too huge to fail, are already being underwritten to the tune of €130bn by the ECB, and are now going to be bailed out by the EU with a preferential loan.

Sure, there's going to be people who blame the EU for all of that. Why wouldn't there be? Who wouldn't prefer to pretend that it was all someone else's fault instead of facing the rather less than glamorous truth?

amused,
Scofflaw

Avgas

Martin 2 wrote: »

Selective quoting, highly biased conclusions, distortion of facts, no surveys or other scientific measures of opinion - a very poor post from an obvious euroskeptic.

Wrong under all headings. No quotes at all-merely referenced the IT editorial by-line. What facts have I distorted? Do you expect me to do a survey on my own...we will both have to wait for a Eurbarometer survey in a while to see if there has been a spike in anti-EU sentiment. Maybe something will be asked in one of the Red C polls or equivalent but I doubt it.

Most of all you've got me wrong in labeling me "euroskeptic"; I have voted yes in all the relevant referendums. Quite pro EU in general but not afraid to be critical of particular EU policies or details of same. Think leaving the Euro would be potty, etc.

Even if I was, your not engaging with the argument-that recent events have badly soured our relationship with the EU among mainstream voters-this is very bad news.....both in the short term viz a possible referendum and over the longer term.......

View

The commentators can be as anti-EU as they like - until such time as we can figure out basic budget math, it is not as if they can offer a realistic alternative.

sirromo

Like most Irish people, I share the mainstream view that the conditions created by our membership of the single market contributed massively to the success of our economy over the last few decades. At the same time I believe that the conditions created by our membership of the euro contributed massively to the problems that we're now having to deal with. While the former view is unquestionably mainstream, I think the second view is also becoming increasing popular among the general public.

Maybe the question shouldn't be whether Irish people are becoming anti-EU. Maybe we should whether we're just becoming less pro-EU?

seamus

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure, there's going to be people who blame the EU for all of that. Why wouldn't there be? Who wouldn't prefer to pretend that it was all someone else's fault instead of facing the rather less than glamorous truth?

+1
Ireland acted somewhat like a 17-year-old who'd just landed his first job paying €2,000 a month. No proper planning, spend, party, spend, party, spend, and then weeping and wailing when you've maxed out 3 credit cards and have a €10k car loan that you can't repay.

The EU gave us access the funding which fuelled our success. We're the ones who failed to use that access responsibly.

View

sirromo wrote: »

At the same time I believe that the conditions created by our membership of the euro contributed massively to the problems that we're now having to deal with.

Well, that is certainly true in the sense that a pub helps create conditions that enable its patrons go on a binge and wake up the next day with a god-awful hangover.

Unfortunately though, an argument that if the pub was under different management - namely, the pub's patrons - that things would somehow turn out differently isn't very credible.

Scofflaw

One would also need to see some evidence that these views are actually 'popular' and 'held by most people' as opposed to the posters.

Having said that, I imagine that the EU will tend to suffer a loss of confidence and trust on the back of current events, as will all economic and political institutions. The question is the degree to which that's the case, and whether the EU suffers the same erosion, more, or less, than other such institutions.

cordially,
Scofflaw

SkepticOne

sirromo wrote: »

Like most Irish people, I share the mainstream view that the conditions created by our membership of the single market contributed massively to the success of our economy over the last few decades. At the same time I believe that the conditions created by our membership of the euro contributed massively to the problems that we're now having to deal with. While the former view is unquestionably mainstream, I think the second view is also becoming increasing popular among the general public.

Maybe the question shouldn't be whether Irish people are becoming anti-EU. Maybe we should whether we're just becoming less pro-EU?

This is a fairly balanced point of view. The institutions of the EU have been good for Ireland in some respects and not so good in others.

What I think we will start to see is that balanced viewpoints such as this will become rarer and the dialogue will become more polarised. The eurosceptics will become more sceptical and the europhiles will become more sycophantic.

Scofflaw

SkepticOne wrote: »

This is a fairly balanced point of view. The institutions of the EU have been good for Ireland in some respects and not so good in others.

What I think we will start to see is that balanced viewpoints such as this will become rarer and the dialogue will become more polarised. The eurosceptics will become more sceptical and the europhiles will become more sycophantic.

Unfortunately, that last line, with "sceptical" eurosceptics versus "sycophantic" europhiles, indicates what you consider to be "balanced" rather too well.

amused,
Scofflaw

SkepticOne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Unfortunately, that last line, with "sceptical" eurosceptics versus "sycophantic" europhiles, indicates what you consider to be "balanced" rather too well.

I don't think it is particularly unbalanced. What words would you use?

Scofflaw

SkepticOne wrote: »

I don't think it is particularly unbalanced. What words would you use?

"Pro" and "anti" seem reasonable to me - after all, "sceptical" isn't a negative term, whereas "sycophantic" very definitely is:

Sceptical

1. not convinced that something is true; doubtful
2. tending to mistrust people, ideas, etc., in general

Sycophantic
1. using flattery to win favour from individuals wielding influence; toadyish; obsequious

So eurosceptics are 'reserving judgement', while europhiles are 'toadying flatterers' - and that's a balanced position, according to you.

amused,
Scofflaw

SkepticOne

Scofflaw wrote: »

So eurosceptics are 'reserving judgement', while europhiles are 'toadying flatterers' - and that's a balanced position, according to you.

Ok, perhaps "toadying flatterers" is too strong. The main point is that the extreme positions will become more extreme while the moderate ones will be squeezed.

Scofflaw

SkepticOne wrote: »

Ok, perhaps "toadying flatterers" is too strong.

It does rather fail to suggest a completely balanced view of the two sides' motives and character...

SkepticOne wrote: »

The main point is that the extreme positions will become more extreme while the moderate ones will be squeezed.

That I entirely agree with - it may or may not be quite as dramatic as the polarisation over Lisbon. The question is whether the effect outlasts the crisis.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Martin 2

Avgas wrote: »

Wrong under all headings. No quotes at all-merely referenced the IT editorial by-line.

So that text between the quotes; "is [sic] it for this?" is not a actually a quote? In fact the editorial byline is "Was it for this?..." vis-à-vis the reason the men of 1916 died, and this echoes the words of Yeats in in his poem September 1913*:

Was it for this the wild geese spread
The grey wing upon every tide;
For this that all that blood was shed,
For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
And Robert Emmet and Wolfe Tone,
All that delirium of the brave?
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
It's with O'Leary in the grave.

I thought you selected that particular quote for its obvious significance to Eurosceptics, in fact, I had images of you sitting in a room surrounded by pictures of Wolfe Tone and Robert Emmet - seriously.

What facts have I distorted?

You said "We were told for Lisbon 2 that the Corporate Tax was 'untouchable'.", now, what we were mainly told was that "Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation." (text of EU guarantee), however, that did not exclude the possibility that the Irish government could change it itself as a quid pro quo for being bailed out or as a way of getting additional revenue (in the short term) to reduce our deficit. In case any one thinks that I'd support CT increases, I would not, I have worked in MNCs and with MNCs, and in research, enterprise and innovation and I know how vital low CT is for our economy. But if we end up raising our CT rate, I certainly won't blame the EU, I'll blame FF, the bankers, the regulators and ourselves for needing to be bailed out in the first place.

Do you expect me to do a survey on my own...we will both have to wait for a Eurbarometer survey in a while to see if there has been a spike in anti-EU sentiment. Maybe something will be asked in one of the Red C polls or equivalent but I doubt it.

Obviously I don't expect you to do a survey, however, in terms of presenting a quality objective thread, yes, I absolutely do expect you to wait for the Eurobarometer survey or equivalent survey to answer a question like "Given recent events has mainstream Ireland now flipped to an anti-EU position?", and to discuss the findings.

Most of all you've got me wrong in labeling me "euroskeptic"; I have voted yes in all the relevant referendums. Quite pro EU in general but not afraid to be critical of particular EU policies or details of same. Think leaving the Euro would be potty, etc.

Good to hear, however, since I don't know you personally and have no way of knowing what way you voted, I could only go on your post, which seemed quite Eurosceptic in content and conclusions. It started with the seemingly rhetorical question in your title "Mainstream Ireland now anti-EU?"; Coir would have been proud of your use of the question mark. It was then followed by reference to a stanza in Yeats' poem, September 1913*, a popular quote for Eurosceptics, and finally your comments with regard to corportation tax as outlined above. Given that you are not a Eurosceptic, would it not have been better to present a seemingly less eurosceptic post? By the way, that question is rhetorical!

Even if I was, your not engaging with the argument-that recent events have badly soured our relationship with the EU among mainstream voters-this is very bad news.....both in the short term viz a possible referendum and over the longer term.......

I have no doubt that the recent events have soured the relationship between some mainstream voters and the EU but equally valid is the assertion that it has sweetened the relationship with others; we are getting 'bailed out' after all. As to if our support for the EU has flipped, I very much doubt it'd but I'd prefer to wait until a survey before making any further comments.


*P.S, I think September 1913 is a great poem, only wish the Eurosceptics wouldn't use it to promote their agenda.

.

BetterLisbon

Avgas wrote: »

Given recent events has mainstream Ireland now flipped to an anti-EU position?

Just use the recent Irish Times editorial as a bell weather-"is it for this?"

Never mind nuanced and complex facts which might suggest 'but for the EU', the way it looks for many people is that the EU has taken over the country's entire economic policy.

The link being made with 'giving up our 12.5% corporate tax rate' is deeply damaging for our long term view of, and relationship with, the EU. Most Irish people see it as bullying us when we are down in the gutter. We were told for Lisbon 2 that the Corporate Tax was 'untouchable'. [never mind that it might actually be a bad policy-leave aside]

The large and mostly middle class public service will also likely associate EU/IMF with an impending tear-up of the Croke Park agreement. Will they ever vote for an EU referendum again?

Some business people/commentators now associate the Euro and the policies of the ECB with our problems-the story line goes: the Euro gave us too much easy credit and cheap money...we'd be better off with Sterling/Gold Sovereigns, etc. Such arguments are for the most part laughable-[although being able to devalue your own currency has helped Sweden no end inside the EU] ....but they've gone mainstream-a worrying trend.

So what are we looking at here?

A Greenland scenario-we are heading towards Exit/leaving the EU?
A little Englander scenario-we eventually leave the Euro and/or become more Eurosceptic than the Brits or Danes.....and a very difficult member state?
And what if our Supreme Court rule following Crotty that we need another referendum to approve what is more or less a total re-writing of Article 125 disguised as a technical adjustment?

Cent, penny or gold dust for your thoughts?

I have allowed myself a wry smile at the surge of euroscepticism from the same media outlets that peddled fictions and dished out smears during Lisbon, Nice etc. down the years. The same media outlets that told us to concede sovereignty to the EU are now weeping over the loss of sovereignty to the IMF/ECB/EC slush fund.

oppenheimer1

Scofflaw wrote: »

Let's see - following a generation of EU funding, we finally managed to achieve prosperity through becoming a semi-tax haven parasitic on the larger EU economies - whereupon we blew up an unsustainable property bubble with pro-bubble national policies (tax breaks for building houses, mortgage relief, etc). That in turn allowed our banks to swell to a size where the state actually can't manage them - by making loans to the extent of several times our GDP without assets to match because the government failed to regulate them. Other euro countries somehow managed not to do this, whereas places like Iceland did exactly the same as us.

Those same banks, which are now too huge to fail, are already being underwritten to the tune of €130bn by the ECB, and are now going to be bailed out by the EU with a preferential loan.

Sure, there's going to be people who blame the EU for all of that. Why wouldn't there be? Who wouldn't prefer to pretend that it was all someone else's fault instead of facing the rather less than glamorous truth?

amused,
Scofflaw

I don't think many are under the illusion that the problems the country faces are anything but of its own making. However this current crisis has been precipitated by Merkel playing to the gallery at home. Its unlikely the IMF would be here today if Merkel had said nothing. The only reason that this came to a head this week is that she hadn't the sense to keep her opinions to herself and decided to spook the market with a vague statement.

Ireland is grateful from the assistance the EU gave it in the past, however if the EU places unnecessary conditions on the loans it offers Ireland it will stoke anti-EU sentiment. Rightly or wrongly there will be plenty of groups that will be happy to capitalise on this, and they will have financial backing from the euroskeptic UK too. If there are forced cuts in PS pay and numbers, it will be the EU that will get blamed, rightly or wrongly.

The EU cannot afford to back Ireland into a corner. While the obvious threat of taking out the euro is a card in our hand our most powerful card should be the willingness of Europe to show it is an ally, rather than an organisation that will kick us when we are down. If austerity is too painful or the conditions are seen to be to put those upstart paddies in their place, and is seen to be imposed from Brussels, Ireland will become the problem child of Europe and will not pass its future treaties. The germans then risk the fragmentation their european project.

Scofflaw

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't think many are under the illusion that the problems the country faces are anything but of its own making. However this current crisis has been precipitated by Merkel playing to the gallery at home. Its unlikely the IMF would be here today if Merkel had said nothing. The only reason that this came to a head this week is that she hadn't the sense to keep her opinions to herself and decided to spook the market with a vague statement.

Ireland is grateful from the assistance the EU gave it in the past, however if the EU places unnecessary conditions on the loans it offers Ireland it will stoke anti-EU sentiment. Rightly or wrongly there will be plenty of groups that will be happy to capitalise on this, and they will have financial backing from the euroskeptic UK too. If there are forced cuts in PS pay and numbers, it will be the EU that will get blamed, rightly or wrongly.

The EU cannot afford to back Ireland into a corner. While the obvious threat of taking out the euro is a card in our hand our most powerful card should be the willingness of Europe to show it is an ally, rather than an organisation that will kick us when we are down. If austerity is too painful or the conditions are seen to be to put those upstart paddies in their place, and is seen to be imposed from Brussels, Ireland will become the problem child of Europe and will not pass its future treaties. The germans then risk the fragmentation their european project.

Some good points, but the fact that Merkel was able to panic the bond markets - and that they didn't calm down after clarification - suggests to me that the situation was unstable anyway, and would have blown up in our faces on some rumour or other. I'm not saying we couldn't have got through it without it blowing up - only that if we had, it would have been a miracle.

cordially,
Scofflaw

RandomName2

Martin 2 wrote: »

we are getting 'bailed out' after all.

Hardly.

We are getting a loan which the government fought desperately hard not to accept but were pressurised into taking in the end.

And if the loss of fiscal sovereignty is not an appropriate time to quote September 1913 I don't know when is.

Certainly more appropriate than the Strike and Lockout.

---
Not that the EU is to blame for our insolvency. That's an entirely home-grown affair.

Avgas

My OP point was that criticism of the EU has now gone mainstream/ Evidence short of proper polling? Take fairly respected Economist Colm McCarthy in the Indo this Saturday, with a reasonably balanced piece, which nonetheless raises the 'Bogeyman' factor of the EU:

"A critical issue is the Irish corporation tax rate, a cornerstone of Irish policy for half a century. It seems clear that rival EU member states may seek to bully the Irish authorities into raising the rate, which would undermine commitments given by Irish governments over many years. There is no basis in the EU treaties for the dictation of rates of tax from Brussels and it will be interesting to see if the EU Commission will resist this improper pressure coming, it is reported, mainly from France and Germany. Both countries have higher headline tax rates than Ireland but surprisingly modest actual revenue yields, reflecting the numerous opportunities for tax avoidance by their business corporations. There are few areas of international economic diplomacy more prone to hypocrisy than tax competition.
On Friday I participated in a BBC radio discussion on this topic with Will Hutton, a prominent British economist. He described the Irish corporation tax arrangements as theft, no less. Rates of tax vary enormously around the EU member states. The tax base can be mobile, seeking out the best deal.
If any of you were in Newry in the last couple of years availing of the lower spending taxes there, you have been complicit in theft, it would appear.
Mr Hutton's position is absurd and this issue goes to the heart of the European federalist project. No member state has signed up for the surrender of autonomy in setting tax rates. If they were asked to do so in referenda, I suspect that consent would be withheld. If the European project ever does come off the rails, this relentless pressure to harmonise and federalise without consent will be the reason.
The IMF has been painted as the bogeyman in press coverage over the last few days but the behaviour of the EU Commission, which is required to resist improper pressure from member states, including large ones, should be more of a concern."[/U]

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/there-isnt-any-need-to-raise-corporate-tax-rate-2429341.html

Elsewhere media coverage described us now as a Colony....[my own view this is utter rubbish... I've stopped buying and reading our Sunday papers a long time ago]....problem is though .....a significant number of people do buy and read them and are influenced by this type of stuff.

A formal press release by the Commission to clarify that use of terminology like 'colony' and 'loss of sovereignty' are exaggerations might be welcome/prudent no?

Avgas

Another piece by John McManus (hardly a Ganleyite Eurosceptic) in the Irish Times which has a negative story line regarding role of the EU and ECB. Mainstream pro-EU IT readers will be reading this.

See:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1122/1224283833586.html

Avgas

The IT have finished one of their readers' web polls...not scientific to the standard of a proper poll (which anyhow has +/-3% accuracy)...but revealing and backs up what I've been saying....
61% believe the EU/IMF bailout is an erosion of sovereignty
39% said no.

http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9612&subsiteid=356

This changes our relationship with, and view of, the EU in a major way.

Martin 2

Avgas wrote: »

The IT have finished one of their readers' web polls...not scientific to the standard of a proper poll (which anyhow has +/-3% accuracy)...but revealing and backs up what I've been saying....
61% believe the EU/IMF bailout is an erosion of sovereignty
39% said no.

http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9612&subsiteid=356

This changes our relationship with, and view of, the EU in a major way.

Of course a bail out is seen as an erosion of sovereignty. However, the questions are; what gave rise to the bailout or loss of sovereignty, government mismanagement of the economy or the EU? Who is getting the blame, FF or the EU? Where is the majority of people's anger being directed, at the government or at the EU/IMF? Who is bailing us out and saving our economy from total collapse? Given the likely answers to these questions, then the answer to your earlier question (post 1), "... has mainstream Ireland has now flipped to an anti-EU position?", is; probably not.

Look, I was probably a bit harsh on you earlier because of how I perceived your first post and I can see now that you are concerned that the recent events may have a negative effect on our perception of the EU, but I wouldn't worry, the majority of Irish people are clever enough to know who the real architects of our misfortune are and will apportion blame accordingly.

Avgas

Don't agree Martin2......with respect...blame will go all over the place.....people will blame domestic political elite......and at the same time enough will heap blame upon the EU in a kind of vague existential way....yes its illogical [because we've more or less always been in a currency union since independence either de facto with Sterling or de jure now with the Euro.]...but that doesn't mean it isn't a trend emerging...

To be specific we have about a third of the electorate who are broadly euroskeptic already........these events could easily build that base up to 40-50% levels and eat into the middle class core consensus that the EU is basically a good thing....also if the party system suffers a serious melt-down (such as factions of rural back-bench FF'ers breaking away...rump 'country FF')...these elements will likely toy with varieties of populist nationalism that will not be very ready to explain the finer points of EU policy and compromise, etc...

So far we've avoided an extreme right wing anti-immigrant and anti-EU party in Ireland. They've emerged and done well in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Sweden and Denmark, oh and Hungary, who've also had a visit from the IMF. I see Ganley would have scope to fill something of a a void on that score...(in fairness I've never heard him be anti-immigrant-am I wrong?). This is in part my worry.

We are nowhere near bottom of the curve on this one-either politically or economically.

Martin 2

Avgas wrote: »

....
So far we've avoided an extreme right wing anti-immigrant and anti-EU party in Ireland. They've emerged and done well in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Sweden and Denmark, oh and Hungary, who've also had a visit from the IMF. I see Ganley would have scope to fill something of a a void on that score...(in fairness I've never heard him be anti-immigrant-am I wrong?). This is in part my worry.
...

That worries me too. If anyone would be prepared to exploit and fan people's fears and insecurities it's Declan Ganley; that's essentially what he did in Lisbon 1. During the EP elections he recruited a string of right wing parties and individuals across Europe under the Libertas banner. Famously, during those elections, Libertas in Ireland were advocating restricting immigration from eastern Europe which didn't do Libertas Poland any favours as the local papers interpreted it as Libertas Ireland telling Polish immigrants to go home. Ganley is first and foremost an opportunist and if stirring up anti-immigrant and anti-EU sentiment would get him votes he would do it. The Irish electorate are now wise to him, he failed to get elected to the EP and he made little difference to Lisbon II. If he does run again there'll be plenty of us around to remind voters of what an unsavoury character he is.
.

Wibbs

Martin 2 wrote: »

The Irish electorate are now wise to him,

The Irish electorate and wisdom in the same sentence doesn't exactly fill me with confidence to be perfectly honest. Not going on previous. I'll not be too dismayed if FF get much higher results than the current polls suggest. So him or others like him getting the kneejerk vote would not surprise me one little bit. Not in times like these. Historically it's in times like these that radicals get more airtime and support.

he failed to get
elected to the EP and he made little difference to Lisbon II. If he does run
again there'll be plenty of us around to remind voters of what a creepy
character he is.

We can but hope M2, we can but hope.

I have lately noticed a bit of a change in people I know on this subject. The vast majority would be pro Europe in leanings. The sovereignty angle is the biggy it seems. Which for me anyway is a tad daft on a few levels. For a start considering the carry on of those we voted for time and time again(and a pretty lacklustre opposition) in practical terms it may be a good thing and secondly our sovereignty was already compromised on a few levels by inclusion in the EU, particularly on fiscal policies.

Empire o de Sun

Something good is done = Irish Government takes credit.

Something goes bad = Irish Government blames EU and/or EU rules.

Mr.Nice Guy

You reap what you sow. We never should have allowed the democratic rejection of the Lisbon Treaty (or Nice) to have been overturned by undemocratic figures in Brussels putting pressure on our spineless politicians here. Those who endorsed the lessening of our sovereignty are hopefully now recognising the folly of their naiveté. Of course unfortunately many won't want to hear this and will remain in denial. I'm still waiting on all those jobs the Yes campaign for Lisbon promised...

meglome

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You reap what you sow. We never should have allowed the democratic rejection of the Lisbon Treaty (or Nice) to have been overturned by undemocratic figures in Brussels putting pressure on our spineless politicians here. Those who endorsed the lessening of our sovereignty are hopefully now recognising the folly of their naiveté. Of course unfortunately many won't want to hear this and will remain in denial. I'm still waiting on all those jobs the Yes campaign for Lisbon promised...

You know I barely have the tolerance to give a proper reply on this. I am so sick of hearing this same untrue nonsense that I'm getting to the insulting stage.

blah blah blah... forced abortions... EU army... 1.85 minimum wage... blah blah blah.

The seeds of our downfall were sown long before the Lisbon treaty. These same seeds were sown by our politicians, the ones we elected. At this point I'd ask you to show the parts of the Lisbon treaty that caused the things you believe it did. But I won't bother as I already know you can't.

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Something good is done = Irish Government takes credit.

Something goes bad = Irish Government blames EU and/or EU rules.

Sadly very true.

MrMatisse

Wonderful,

The EU, our friends, whos banks lent recklessly to private Irish companies are now forcing the Irish tax payer to cover their lossess

All the EU cheerleaders in this forum must be delighted.

FreudianSlippers

The question is this: do you blame the EU and the EMU for the financial collapse? I don't think one can do this. We were greedy and relied on a flawed system of credit developed in the US where the idea was always to live in the red.
The problem here and in the US was that a large chunk of "easy money" was to be had in property development. The credit system was relying largely on the property bubble not collapsing and it did.

Is the EU 'forcing the Irish tax payer to cover their losses'? No, and it's actually ridiculous to even suggest so. The government believed, correctly IMO, that if they let the banks fail it could absolutely destroy our economy.

Oscardela

OisinT wrote: »

The question is this: do you blame the EU and the EMU for the financial collapse? I don't think one can do this. We were greedy and relied on a flawed system of credit developed in the US where the idea was always to live in the red.
The problem here and in the US was that a large chunk of "easy money" was to be had in property development. The credit system was relying largely on the property bubble not collapsing and it did.

Is the EU 'forcing the Irish tax payer to cover their losses'? No, and it's actually ridiculous to even suggest so. The government believed, correctly IMO, that if they let the banks fail it could absolutely destroy our economy.

From where I am sitting, it looks as if the very act of refusing to let any bank fail already has, and will continue, to destroy the irish economy.

Additionally, the huge amounts of debt the Irish government has foisted on the Irish people, in pursuit of its policy of not letting any bank fail, is so large that it looks as if defaulting on the repayments is more likely than not.

It seems that the Irish government appears to think it can buck the markets.
If they are right is is already, and is gong to be increasingly, expensive. If they are wrong, it is going to be even more so.

beagle001

The European union will become weaker and weaker this next 10yrs and many predict countries bailing out of it within this timeframe.
It's a complete mess at the moment,euro is a failed currency by all means and once the defaults begin not only in Ireland do people think it has any chance of survival or could Germany one day pull out of the Eu as seems to be the strategy happening in the UK

Corsendonk

beagle001 wrote: »

The European union will become weaker and weaker this next 10yrs and many predict countries bailing out of it within this timeframe.
It's a complete mess at the moment,euro is a failed currency by all means and once the defaults begin not only in Ireland do people think it has any chance of survival or could Germany one day pull out of the Eu as seems to be the strategy happening in the UK

Why would they pull out? The German economy is booming because of the Euro and trade within the EU, the UK is always leaving but they never will.

French media yesterday was reporting that Germany and France were looking for a more Federal Europe following the Euro crisis. I accept the Euro is flawed because its not linked to the european tax system, a european tax system would be on a federal europes wishlist so the euro crisis actually might drive nations closer together than further away as the Anti-Lisbon posters dream of everynight.

DIRTY69

beagle001 wrote: »

The European union will become weaker and weaker this next 10yrs and many predict countries bailing out of it within this timeframe.
It's a complete mess at the moment,euro is a failed currency by all means and once the defaults begin not only in Ireland do people think it has any chance of survival or could Germany one day pull out of the Eu as seems to be the strategy happening in the UK

Sooner Ireland is out of the Eurozone and the Euro the better. Bring on the PUNT and DEMOCRATIC politics. There was a time where it was good for us to be in the EU, that time is over. It's a failed ideal and a failed currency imho.

meglome

DIRTY69 wrote: »

Sooner Ireland is out of the Eurozone and the Euro the better. Bring on the PUNT and DEMOCRATIC politics. There was a time where it was good for us to be in the EU, that time is over. It's a failed ideal and a failed currency imho.

Maybe you'll explain to me exactly how we'll be better off with PUNT Nua? And how exactly that will be more DEMOCRATIC?

DIRTY69

meglome wrote: »

Maybe you'll explain to me exactly how we'll be better off with PUNT Nua? And how exactly that will be more DEMOCRATIC?

I will explain, they have said that they are planning on inflating the euro in order to pay debts, so it is my belief, and the belief of some others that the Euro is going to collapse. The Dollar is looking like that too with so much debt. The free media are going into over drive at the moment reporting this stuff.

You might be interested to know that the same people own the IMF as own AIB. The Rothchild family.

FreudianSlippers

DIRTY69 wrote: »

You might be interested to know that the same people own the IMF as own AIB. The Rothchild family.

Source?

I think you mean Rothschild anyway...

DIRTY69

OisinT wrote: »

Source?

I think you mean Rothschild anyway...

http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=10988

FreudianSlippers

Firstly, AIB is not Anglo Irish Bank.
Secondly, no source to be seen that says Rothschild owns the IMF.

Scofflaw

And thirdly, we're wandering across the line between Politics and Conspiracy Theories.

moderately,
Scofflaw

DIRTY69

Scofflaw wrote: »

And thirdly, we're wandering across the line between Politics and Conspiracy Theories.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Conspiracy theories are often politics, often they are one
and the same thing, or interlinked in some way. Boards.ie seems a bit heavy handed when talking about anything vaguely political.


@OisinT
This is an article about Rothschild and the IMF.
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Government/IMF.htm

Scofflaw

DIRTY69 wrote: »

Conspiracy theories are often politics, often they are one
and the same thing, or interlinked in some way. Boards.ie seems a bit heavy handed when talking about anything vaguely political.


@OisinT
This is an article about Rothschild and the IMF.
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Government/IMF.htm

That is because, unlike other politics forums, we have on Boards a Conspiracy Theories forum specifically for the sort of discussions that revolve around the unprovable. That allows the moderators in Politics the unusual luxury of requiring those who choose to discuss here rather than there to stick to the provable rather than dragging the Rothschilds, the Bilderbergers and the rest of the shadowy chorus line into every thread.

And in case my orotundity disguises it, please note that that this is a mod warning to desist from muddying political discussions with conspiracy theory material, or lose access to the forum.

moderately,
Scofflaw

FreudianSlippers

Back on topic:

It's extraordinarily short sighted to claim we'd be better off on the Punt.

Where are we going to get the money to make all this new money?
We're like financial lepers on the market at the moment, our Punts would be worthless on the markets.
It would put unnecessary strain on businesses too.

I genuinely have no clue how anyone could think that leaving the Euro could have any positive impact on us at this stage?

DIRTY69

Scofflaw wrote: »

desist from muddying political discussions with conspiracy theory material, or lose access to the forum.

Okay, well it's not my intention to muddy the conversation with unprovable facts. I can stick to more provable ones in future, sure, though you don't need to threaten me off the forum to make a point dude, that's a pretty strange way to get your message across.

OisinT wrote: »

I genuinely have no clue how anyone could think that leaving the Euro could have any positive impact on us at this stage?

Fair enough. I believe the only way to have more growth and resilience in the economy is to have more local spending in it, and buying more Irish goods and services. I think community currency system's are a great idea and have been tested to good effect. On the nationwide scale I think having our own currency is important for our own economic stability, not that of Europe. I think the UK has done better for having it's own currency.

I believe that we don't need to get things shipped from the other side of the world when they can be grown there, like the last time I bought asparagus was from Mexico, and mongtout from kenya or Chile. It pays out money to outside of this country when it could be kept inside it. Of course we need to import things, and some things will be exported, but I think more support and respect should be given to organic farmers to supply our own food. It means more stability and resilience of the community to economic or environmental crisis, as well as your more day to days. It also has a strong effect our health in buying local organic food, and the inherent food miles too. It's completely unsustainable for the future whichever why you look at it. I think Cuba's transition from oil to localised, and more healthy organic food is inspirational in this area.

I'm concentrating a lot on food here, of course its wider than that, but that's just one example of producing for our local economy and the imporance of individuals, councils and the government to support such enterprises.

Moneywise I think we've got the wrong idea too, and I think that we've all been taken in by the idea that the Euro is good for us. Well, I think it cuts domestic spending, cuts also a healthy amount of local thinking to look after ourselves and our community. I don't believe that the EU has the best interests of Ireland in mind, and I don't think those who control the Euro currency do either.

As regards the practical side of going back to the punt, I'd need to ask my friend who studies economics, because I don't know enough about it. It may not be a practical solution for the short term, but I think everyone can agree that supporting local has a huge effect on economy, and I think having our own currency supports that too. We can have control on how we want it ran ourselves, not on the basis of how the entire EU is being ran.

MrPint

Hello all,
I see ya nice shiny new top end merc or bmw in show room and think wow i want that......then reality hits me and i think a jaysus I could never ever afford the loan.....so i gets me a tayota avensis
now to the question, is the showroom owner/sales person wrong for having available this car for me to purchase?
how is this situation any different to the banks of eu/usa offering our banks cheap credit?
Our banks should have said hey thats a nice deal but hold on we cant make any money on selling on all this credit to our customers because they cant pay it back(hence the banks could not afford the deal offered as above with the car), so they should have backed of and not taken the monies from the eu/usa banks.
and if the irish banks still went a head and borrowed the monies then the regulator should have stepped up.
I'm not trying to pass on responsiblilty here, we are all at fault(those who borrowed over there means/irish banks/regulator) but the eu/usa banks did not shove the credit down our throats.
It is silly argument in my opinion to blame the eu banks for our/the banks/regulators inability to see that what we were doing was not fincially sound.
that is the past
Now that we are in the situation that we are in we should have burned the bond holders(eu/usa banks), they gambled knowingly and they lost. another bad choice

all the best

MrPint

McDave

I don't accept the contention. It's not the principal concern in people's minds. It's fair to say anything we might have taken for granted politics-wise is now up for grabs. But as of yet, I don't think Irish people by-and-large have coalesced around any pro- or anti- movement or idea as such.

As far as the EU goes, in recent times, despite the efforts of disparate Eurosceptic constituencies, when push comes to shove, Irish voters largely support membership of the EU, and most of what goes with it. Which is not to say we really understand what goes on in the EU and where it might be taking us.

Maybe we need to revisit our relationship with the EU, but with the centenary of the Rising coming up, we need a much more fundamental debate about what our sovereignty really means to us in practice. We need to quit this interminable pussyfooting about crap like the island of saints, scholars, artists and smooth talkers, and to take responsibility for our actions. We need a decade of discipline, hard work and economic and social construction. What we don't need is diversionary windbaggery about stuff like the right to life and the fourth green field.

Scofflaw

McDave wrote: »

I don't accept the contention. It's not the principal concern in people's minds. It's fair to say anything we might have taken for granted politics-wise is now up for grabs. But as of yet, I don't think Irish people by-and-large have coalesced around any pro- or anti- movement or idea as such.

As far as the EU goes, in recent times, despite the efforts of disparate Eurosceptic constituencies, when push comes to shove, Irish voters largely support membership of the EU, and most of what goes with it. Which is not to say we really understand what goes on in the EU and where it might be taking us.

Maybe we need to revisit our relationship with the EU, but with the centenary of the Rising coming up, we need a much more fundamental debate about what our sovereignty really means to us in practice. We need to quit this interminable pussyfooting about crap like the island of saints, scholars, artists and smooth talkers, and to take responsibility for our actions. We need a decade of discipline, hard work and economic and social construction. What we don't need is diversionary windbaggery about stuff like the right to life and the fourth green field.

One can say, I think, that Ireland's relationship with the EU - and particularly the relationship of the Irish citizen with the EU - is part of an internal discussion about sovereignty, the democratic deficit within Ireland, the apparent failure of the electorate to grasp the levers of democratic control or even to know what they're supposed to look like.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Anonymous1987

McDave wrote: »

Maybe we need to revisit our relationship with the EU, but with the centenary of the Rising coming up, we need a much more fundamental debate about what our sovereignty really means to us in practice.

In reality Ireland never had much economic sovereignty particularly with regard to monetary policy. Fiscal policy may be somewhat different with respect to taxation however Keynesian demand policies at least are highly unlikely to be an effective instrument in a very open economy such as ours.

McDave

Scofflaw wrote: »

One can say, I think, that Ireland's relationship with the EU - and particularly the relationship of the Irish citizen with the EU - is part of an internal discussion about sovereignty, the democratic deficit within Ireland, the apparent failure of the electorate to grasp the levers of democratic control or even to know what they're supposed to look like.

Even though the EU has been a potential theme in a number of referenda, I think the Irish discussion on Europe has been tended to be deeply reactionary, with no meaningful treatment of what sovereignty really means. Even during Lisbon 2 the No side was dominated by rubbish about abortion, the minimum wage and the worst kind of Daily Telegraph Euroscepticism. All the while our actual economy was going down the toilet.

In a way, the most appropriate forum for discussion on sovereignty is probably national elections, where we se the tone for what Ireland really is.