Irish Humiliation and Transfer of Power

IK09

Hello,

Is it just me that wonders why we, the people of Ireland, have failed to take back power from the corrupt. I will admit, I have sat by and watched these "politicians" ruin our country. Ask yourself, what have you done to stop it? What have you done to make your voice heard? Our country has been disgraced. Our "leaders" are still trying to peddle the same nonsence, and we sit by and say "what can I do about it?". I waited for the Taoiseach to act, I have waited for the President to intervene. What can we the people do to save our country? I am an Irishman. I am proud to be an Irishman.

This is what our Proclamation of Independence states:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetta] In every generation the Irish people have asserted their right to national freedom and sovereignty; six times during the last three hundred years they have asserted it to arms. Standing on that fundamental right and again asserting it in arms in the face of the world, we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State, and we pledge our lives and the lives of our comrades-in-arms to the cause of its freedom

Has it come to the stage where we, the Irish people must take arms to fend off the corrupt power that rules us.

It looks to me that this proclaimation has seen its own nations future. Every generation has had to bare arms to defend its freedom. I believe our generations time is soon coming. To save our country we must overthrow this government

[/FONT]

ei.sdraob

I for one welcome our new IMF overlords, they sound like they have big "cohones" to do the needful.

Nody

IK09 wrote: »

Hello,

Is it just me that wonders why we, the people of Ireland, have failed to take back power from the corrupt. I will admit, I have sat by and watched these "politicians" ruin our country. Ask yourself, what have you done to stop it? What have you done to make your voice heard? Our country has been disgraced. Our "leaders" are still trying to peddle the same nonsence, and we sit by and say "what can I do about it?". I waited for the Taoiseach to act, I have waited for the President to intervene. What can we the people do to save our country? I am an Irishman. I am proud to be an Irishman.

This is what our Proclamation of Independence states:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetta] In every generation the Irish people have asserted their right to national freedom and sovereignty; six times during the last three hundred years they have asserted it to arms. Standing on that fundamental right and again asserting it in arms in the face of the world, we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State, and we pledge our lives and the lives of our comrades-in-arms to the cause of its freedom

Has it come to the stage where we, the Irish people must take arms to fend off the corrupt power that rules us.

It looks to me that this proclaimation has seen its own nations future. Every generation has had to bare arms to defend its freedom. I believe our generations time is soon coming. To save our country we must overthrow this government

[/FONT]

I swagger and post on a Internet forum, how about you?

HellFireClub

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I for one welcome our new IMF overlords, they sound like they have big "cohones" to do the needful.

+1, what is needed is loss of sovereignty to sort all this out. It could not be any more clear that we are catastrophically incapable of understanding the actual value of money and resolving problems properly through proper meaningful reforms, delivered in good time and for a low cost to the taxpayer. The approach all along with every problem we have had, has been to throw pallets of cash at it.

Thank God other forces have now arrived here to save us from ourselves.

IK09

Im more talking along the lines of the Government, the IMF are necessary at this stage, but even they do not see the incompedent fools that sit across from them. They have demolished this country and they will do it again given the time. We need to protect our country from Fianna Fail, not the IMF.

ei.sdraob

HellFireClub wrote: »

+1, what is needed is loss of sovereignty to sort all this out. It could not be any more clear that we are catastrophically incapable of understanding the actual value of money and resolving problems properly through proper meaningful reforms, delivered in good time and for a low cost to the taxpayer. The approach all along with every problem we have had, has been to throw pallets of cash at it.

Thank God other forces have now arrived here to save us from ourselves.

We voted away our sovereignty to a criminal organisation long time ago. At least the IMF have a past record of getting countries on the right track while they pursue their profit agenda.

lucianot

I don't get it, this talk about sovereignty. Nobody has invaded you, nobody has conquered you.
It's global economy, the same that allowed you to have the Celtic Tiger!
Now is time to fix the damage, that's all.

IK09

Cant say I expected the hostility Novy, but your the exact type of person that i was and I would like to say at least I am learning my lesson, to stand up for myself when sarcastic little people like you attack. The level of negativity that surrounds any attempt at a first step towards at keeping this state a democracy is sickening.

Im guessing you voted Fianna Failure

ei.sdraob

lucianot wrote: »

I don't get it, this talk about sovereignty. Nobody has invaded you, nobody has conquered you.
It's global economy, the same that allowed you to have the Celtic Tiger!
Now is time to fix the damage, that's all.

I dont know, these guys look pretty menacing

IK09

For some reason im more worried about the man sitting than the men standing

Nody

IK09 wrote: »

Cant say I expected the hostility Novy, but your the exact type of person that i was and I would like to say at least I am learning my lesson, to stand up for myself when sarcastic little people like you attack.

Really? What have you done? You posted on an Internet forum telling people to stand up; what have you actually then changed? Did you suggest people to write to their TD? No? Did you try to organize a protest or suggest others should? No? Did you start your own party or suggest others should? No? Did you get organized for party x or suggest others to? No? So what exactly have you done except post on the forum telling people they should "soon" get ready to do something? The point is, you've done nothing and your posts suggest nothing except in some vague future they are suppose to stand up to something.

The level of negativity that surrounds any attempt at a first step towards at keeping this state a democracy is sickening.

I've yet to see this first step you refer to except a vague future potential unspecified action to overthrow the government; most people call this voting.

Im guessing you voted Fianna Failure

Cute attack but sorry, no I did not, nor have I ever, voted FF.

Permabear

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AlekSmart

For some reason im more worried about the man sitting than the men standing

I can`t say the same IKO9.

Mind you it`s interesting to note how that very descriptive photo has disappeared off the updated Irish Independent website.

Of far more importance in relation to your quite obvious distaste for Fianna Fail Governance is the stark bloody reality that for decades we "Free Irish Citizens" repeatedly voted for some of the most openly corrupt,inept political jackasses and then gloried in trumpeting our native imbecility for all to see and hear.

For God`s sake ask yourself how any sane society could elect and then hoist the likes of Pee Flynn and his Daughter up on their shoulders after giving them,yet another,huge majority in FREE,FAIR Elections.

So please,please spare us all this sanctimonious guff in relation to the FF Governments which WE,The Irish People,excercising our right to National Freedom and Soverignty continually elected often in the face of overwhelming evidence to show the despotic nature of these Political Vultures of long-standing !

We can blame who we like,but,unless we face up to our own collective role in feigning ignorance then we deserve a good kicking !

Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

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IIRC the number of outstanding mortgages in Ireland stands at about 760,000. even if you put it at 3 people per house, that gives you less than 2.5 million people going mad buying houses during the boom, and I'm likely including children in that. I'm also excluding the number of second homes which would again reduce the total number of Iriah who went property mad. And if we want to curtail it to property madness during the boom, I'm sure a lot of those 760,000 mortgages are ongoing from the 80s/90s. So in a country of 4.5 million people, how many actually WENT MAD during the boom?? Did house buying increase rapidly?? The figures I've seen suggests not - so this old 'we are all to blame' seems unfounded.




So 35% of people had a mortgage in 1991 compared to 39% in 2006. And a similar number of people own their homes outright. WOW we all went fvcking mental!!!

SkepticOne

donegalfella wrote: »

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But are you just not another person out for yourself, just like the builders, the bankers, the trade unionists? I'm not denying your right to do these things just like I'm not saying what any of these groups have done is wrong. All these people have also profited and have helped make borrowing difficult expensive for the country. Some of them, like the trade unionists, may even have pretensions that they are helping the country.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Macha

Laminations - do your figures account for people who bought a second property purely for investment purposes? And do they include properties bought overseas, often with mortgages held by foreign lending institutions?

SkepticOne

donegalfella wrote: »

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But you can imagine someone like Jack O'Connor, an extreme anti-capitalist, saying much the same thing. His end goal may be different but he's willing to push the country to the very edge to achieve it. It has been the view of certain types of socialism that economic breakdown would create the conditions needed to bring about true socialism. He too would regard the current system as corrupt.

But there's a difference. I have a liberal mentality, not a corporatist one. The IMF is the unions' worst nightmare, but I welcome its intervention in our country. They will stabilize the economy, weaken the parasitical insider class, and (eventually) let honest people go back to work in an economy that is more transparent and accountable. If they have to burn the unions to the ground in the process, all the better for the future of Ireland.

I don't think anyone would think that you have the same end goal in mind but what I think you need to ask yourself is whether you are genuinely acting for the good of the country or whether (like these groups) you are simply rationalising it that way. I mean, have you thought about whether your activities will realistically bring about a liberal society for Ireland. What if it simply brings about decades of debt and economic stagnation for the country? If in 10 years Ireland is in the economic doldrums like it was in the 80's or worse will you feel guilty?

I'm not trying to get at you here by the way. For example, I don't think trade unionists did anything "wrong" as such they merely looked after their own interests and the interests of their members. Where they were incorrect though was in thinking they were acting for the best of the country.

ei.sdraob

Laminations wrote: »

So 35% of people had a mortgage in 1991 compared to 39% in 2006. And a similar number of people own their homes outright. WOW we all went fvcking mental!!!

Alot of people did go mental @Laminations

You are looking at the figures arseways, since it was the huge % of private credit that was being spent on property related activities with a huge buy to let market.

I dont know what % of people went mad, but they clearly did plenty of damage to the country now that the IMF are in town

Sconsey

Loss of soverignty (sp?) my hole....the IMF are coming to make demands on how we manage our economy, we gave the EU that right years ago and nobody was crying about loss of soverignty (well maybe some were but not in the same way). We are still Irish, laws are still Irish, army is still Irish, etc, etc....economy is managed by international and Irish groups but is that such a bad thing considering what we have done to it over the last decade.

I for one welcome someone, anyone, that is willing to make some sensible economic decisions, would it be fair to say that our economy is now going to be managed by qualified economists instead of qualified teachers and lawyers?

djpbarry

IK09 wrote: »

Is it just me that wonders why we, the people of Ireland, have failed to take back power from the corrupt.

No, I still can't understand how Fianna Fáil managed to get re-elected in 2007.

Ask yourself, what have you done to stop it?

I didn't vote for Fianna Fáil.

What can we the people do to save our country?

Set up some businesses?

Has it come to the stage where we, the Irish people must take arms to fend off the corrupt power that rules us.

No. It has come to the stage where Ireland takes it's IMF medicine, makes some short-term sacrifices and emerges the better for it.

Permabear

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meglome

Laminations wrote: »

IIRC the number of outstanding mortgages in Ireland stands at about 760,000. even if you put it at 3 people per house, that gives you less than 2.5 million people going mad buying houses during the boom, and I'm likely including children in that. I'm also excluding the number of second homes which would again reduce the total number of Iriah who went property mad. And if we want to curtail it to property madness during the boom, I'm sure a lot of those 760,000 mortgages are ongoing from the 80s/90s. So in a country of 4.5 million people, how many actually WENT MAD during the boom?? Did house buying increase rapidly?? The figures I've seen suggests not - so this old 'we are all to blame' seems unfounded.

So 35% of people had a mortgage in 1991 compared to 39% in 2006. And a similar number of people own their homes outright. WOW we all went fvcking mental!!!

According to Prime Time last night... There are 789,000 private residential mortgages in this country to a value of 177.4 billion Euro. 40,492 of these are in at least 90 days of arrears to the value of 7.8 billion Euro.

So if our property debt was 33 billion Euro in 2000 it has increased massively by 144.4 billion in 10 years. So yes we went mental.

Einhard

IK09 wrote: »

Hello,

Is it just me that wonders why we, the people of Ireland, have failed to take back power from the corrupt. I will admit, I have sat by and watched these "politicians" ruin our country. Ask yourself, what have you done to stop it? What have you done to make your voice heard? Our country has been disgraced. Our "leaders" are still trying to peddle the same nonsence, and we sit by and say "what can I do about it?". I waited for the Taoiseach to act, I have waited for the President to intervene. What can we the people do to save our country? I am an Irishman. I am proud to be an Irishman.

I have never voted FF. I opposed benchmarking, the creation of the HSE with no redundancies, decentralisation, and the countless other policies that FF introduced in order to buy our votes.

Believe it or not, the electorate did make their voices heard over the past decade. And we demanded more of the same, more irresponsible fiscal management, more disdain for prudence, more of everything except proper governance and sound regulation really.

KeithAFC

Does it matter if it sorts your country out?

dan_d

Laminations wrote: »

Percentages were similar, but is that showing the percentage of population? I'm willing to bet the population in 1991 was substantially less than the population in 2006. If so, there could be a very large disparity in those numbers.....

The more telling numbers are the 2 rows underneath... in the space of 15 years, the average house price (the mean) increased by 240,000eur (approx). That means it quadrupled - in fact more than quadrupled - in that time. Compared to the NI prices, which increased by 144000 (approx) in the same time.

For further analysis - over 11 years (91 - 02), our average house price increased by 132,000eur. That's about 12000eur a year, assuming the increase is spread evenly over the 11 years, which it probably wasn't. The increase per year was probably weighted more towards the end of the 90's. Over 4 years (02 - 06) it increased by 108,000eur - note I'm rounding down here. That's 27,000eur a year, again assuming the increase is spread evenly. Those are some seriously scary numbers and to anyone with half a brain, should have indicated that the property market was in running off the tracks altogether. For increases like that in such short periods of time, especially compared with the rate of increase at the start of the 90's.....there must be nobody running this country with even half a brain. And worse, those numbers are just averages, they don't even tell the whole story.

Compare to the NI market - I couldn't be bothered working the numbers, sorry!

Laminations - people went mad. One line of that table mightn't tell you that, but the table in it's entirety shows that at a glance.

IK09

djpbarry wrote: »

No, I still can't understand how Fianna Fáil managed to get re-elected in 2007.
I didn't vote for Fianna Fáil.
Set up some businesses?
No. It has come to the stage where Ireland takes it's IMF medicine, makes some short-term sacrifices and emerges the better for it.

Short term? This saga will hang over this country for generations. Maybe this is just my pure naivity speaking, but is this not the type of crisis that the Government are in place to prevent? What are we going to tell our children when they can understand this? When Daddys generations time to stand up and have a spine like his ancestors did, he did not.

IK09

IK09 wrote: »

Short term? This saga will hang over this country for generations. Maybe this is just my pure naivity speaking, but is this not the type of crisis that the Government are in place to prevent? What are we going to tell our children when they can understand this? When Daddys generations time to stand up and have a spine like his ancestors did, he did not.

As far as I can see, as long as Ireland has had an Irish government we have never stood up to our rather inept politicians. It seems like we need to have a foreign power in charge before we'll work up the effort to do something. As for what we're going to tell our children, I'll have to understand what is going on first. Our government is incapable of being honest with us, even when they decide to speak about the subject in hand. So with the lack of accurate information about the state of the economy its rather difficult to decide what is really going on.

Honestly, until we shake things up getting rid of these "career" politicians that care only for themselves, and not for the state of the country, we'll continue to have problems. Alas, I feel that our (myself included) attention span is rather short, and we lack the drive to make an real changes.

djpbarry

IK09 wrote: »

Short term? This saga will hang over this country for generations.

No it won't - surely you've noticed by now that Ireland doesn't learn from past mistakes?

Maybe this is just my pure naivity speaking, but is this not the type of crisis that the Government are in place to prevent?

Maybe I'm being naive, but wasn't this government re-elected by an electorate who must have had at least an inkling that the property-based economy was totally unsustainable?

What are we going to tell our children when they can understand this?

Anyone in early-21st century Ireland who didn't own a property was perceived by our society to be a complete failure.

When Daddys generations time to stand up and have a spine like his ancestors did, he did not.

Daddy was busy laying decking.

later12

ei.sdraob wrote: »

At least the IMF have a past record of getting countries on the right track while they pursue their profit agenda.

Excuse me...
Kenya?
Argentina?

IK09

Daddy was busy laying decking.[/QUOTE]

Very nice

yoshytoshy

dan_d wrote: »

Laminations - people went mad. One line of that table mightn't tell you that, but the table in it's entirety shows that at a glance.

I've checked through figures and we had a population of 3.5 million in 1991 ,now 4.3 million.

That chart shows percentage of home ownership at 39% for 2006 ,but thats at the end of mortgages of 40-80K.
We now have people with 30 year mortgages ,who will overlap records for years to come. I'd say the rate of home ownership will go down ,as people start to rent.

That chart is absolutely useless ,probably made up by a group of servants on 200K.

nesf

later10 wrote: »

Excuse me...
Kenya?
Argentina?

The IMF operates very different now to how it did back then. They've learned from their **** ups. Unlike a lot of Governments.

RDM_83 again

Is it only in the last few years that this occurred? what evidence to you have for that statement?or is it possibly because of countries reluctance to become involved in the IMF in recent years
This report by IEO (their internal review team) is pretty critical about their policies in Africa from 1999-2005
http://www.ieo-imf.org/eval/complete/pdf/03122007/report.pdf
you can just read the executive summary at the start.

Oh ps and in the intervening years since that they've had Dominique Strauss-Kahn, who's a French socialist which I'm sure posters like Donegalfella will love, and who also has "a healthy interest in attractive woman"

nesf

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Is it only in the last few years that this occurred? what evidence to you have for that statement?or is it possibly because of countries reluctance to become involved in the IMF in recent years

I attended a talk by an IMF economist. When asked about the IMF's track record in Argentina and similar, he said quite bluntly that their decisions in the 80s and 90s did more harm than good in many ways and that nowadays they approached things in a different manner and adjusted their policies.

K-9

Hungary and Latvia are more recent examples, Latvia is back in growth.

Still, the cuts were severe but blaming the IMF for that is a bit like blaming the Revenue Sheriff for collecting a debt.

RDM_83 again

Did you even look at the link? in the executive summary it actually goes into the perception versus the reality. here's some quotes. I would call an IMF economist quite a likely person to be speaking the "institutional rhetoric".

If you have any other non imf sources i would be very interested as I actually don't know how the IMF has acted in the last few years, but until I see otherwise I'l probably believe they haven't completely shed their ties to the disastrous early 90's programmes.

"The first is that IMF-supported programs have blocked the use of available aid to SSA through overly conservative macroeconomic programs.
The second is that such programs have lacked ambition in projecting, analyzing, and identifying opportuni-ties for the use of aid inflows to SSA countries, which may in turn have tempered donors’ actual provision of
aid. The third is that IMF-supported programs have done little to address poverty reduction and income distributional issues despite institutional rhetoric to the contrary.

"IMF communications on aid and poverty reduction
have contributed to the external impression that the
IMF committed to do more on aid mobilization and
poverty-reduction analysis. The resulting disconnect
has reinforced cynicism about, and distrust of, IMF
activities in SSA and other low-income countries."

K-9

IMF Survey: After Severe Recession, Stabilization in Latvia

That isn't a non IMF source but it gives an idea of the scale of the task faced.

Minimum wage was increased and Unemployment payments extended. A public works scheme was introduced. They okayed the Govt. scheme on mortgage arrears but they do query the use of scarce resources that way.