Ian Paisley backs unity - under crown

KeithAFC

Former DUP leader and first minister Ian Paisley has told the House of Lords he would support Irish reunification - Ian Paisley backs unity - under crown

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11785646
I imagine not all republicans will agree with this but is it the worst idea in the world? I disagree with him though.

Richard

KeithAFC wrote: »

Oh no he didn't..

I'm not surprised - Paisley has always said that he is Irish, it's just that he sees that Irishness within a British context.

Now whilst most Irish people do not agree with that or with his beliefs about how Ireland should be governed, the feeling of Irishness in a UK context is shared by many other NI Protestants who recognise their Irishness and was certainly more popular in the past.

Don't forget that Paisley founded a cross-border body - the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, which has some churches in the Republic.

Wolfe Tone

Is he not dead yet?


Typical crap from Paisley. Have zero respect for him.

"If we all came together with Her Majesty at our head, I think we would do very well."

Senile?

later12

What's with the Paisley obsession with royalty? He must be HELLO magazine's biggest subscriber.

This is just a bit of light fun. Hardly to be taken seriously, even by Lord Bannside himself. I'm sure his aristocratic title gets him hornier than Lady Eileen ever did, and hopefully he is enjoying his time in the Lords entirely.

sceptre

OP:

The Politics charter requires you to insert your own views rather than copy and paste an article. Including "Oh no he didn't", almost panto-style, is not including your own views. Kindly rectify this asap.

Additionally, please include a link and an attribution to the article quoted. It's also preferable to include a relevant part of the article rather than the whole thing.

I'll leave the thread open for a few hours for you to fix the above. Not doing so casts it into the ether.

Cavehill Red

Paisley didn't ALWAYS say he was Irish. He first said it on record on a visit to Dublin during Ahern's time in charge.
Previously, he (like his party the DUP) was a fervent Ulster nationalist.
Time has mellowed the old blusterer and as a previous poster says, he has always had cross-border elements to his empire, especially on the church side of things.
I wonder whether he'd be prepared to go that little bit further, though, and endorse a unified independent Ireland within the commonwealth (with Betty Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as titular head.)

Kristopherus

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Is he not dead yet?


Typical crap from Paisley. Have zero respect for him.


Senile?

I agree totally. Once a bigot, always a bigot.

Coriolanus

I think unification under the crown with a strong Parliament/Dail in Dublin and no more than oversight from Westminster would be preferable to partition til the end of the century.

PeterIanStaker

You'd want to have pretty low self-esteem to listen to that idiot.



Oh wait, that's the problem.

Fentdog84

This is not the first time somebody made the point oh how we would be better off being in the UK again. Rubbish. We are an independent country. End of. We need to sort our own problems out why should we be somebody elses? Anyway, like the UK we are a satellite state of the EU so cant see how their will be a major difference if we were under british rule anyway, just more red tape and beauracracy. As for Paisley, he's clearly revelling in our misery so its just another chance for a cheap shot at the despicable Paddys..

later12

Fentdog84 wrote: »

This is not the first time somebody made the point oh how we would be better off being in the UK again. Rubbish. We are an independent country. End of. We need to sort our own problems out why should we be somebody elses?

We are about to become subject to IMF approval on matters which we, heretofore, determined amongst ourselves.

We do not determine our own finances. We are simply not independent.

COYW

Fentdog84 wrote: »

We are an independent country. End of.

Really? I think we are a small part of a European nation and what we are seeing in relation to the ECB/IMF.... today, proves that.

Fentdog84

later10 wrote: »

We are about to become subject to IMF approval on matters which we, heretofore, determined amongst ourselves.

We do not determine our own finances. We are simply not independent.

Ok I can see that. But we are an independent entity from UK and people who have the audacity to suggest that we go back under their rule in some form or other are just just need to give their tongue a holiday because its just ludicrious and insulting. Thats all

Coriolanus

Why ludicrous? If history teaches us anything its that notions of identity fluctuate over the centiries. On the balance of probabilities I'd actually argue that its ludicrous to suggest that these isles won't be ruled again centrally. Swings and roundabouts.

mgmt

If there was devolved power for the whole Island I wouldn't be against it completely. Benefits include, getting out of the euro, reunification, not being the whipping boys of europe. When the British come back to Dublin Castle, I hope they line up Cowen, Lenihan, Aherne, Fitzpatrick (and all the other traitors of this country) against the wall in Kilmainham Gaol.

Manach

The idea has some merit. As nearly a historian, I'm more aware than most of the poor historical relationship between UK/Ireland. But although our constitution proclaims an independant nation, this is curtailed in many legal ways such as the European Court of Human rights.
The UK/Ire share a common economic area and are bound by a fairly similar culture (excluding the X-factor) and language. A loose federation as enjoyed in Scotland would hardly be as onerous as some anti-Union posters suggest.

randylonghorn

mgmt wrote: »

When the British come back to Dublin Castle, I hope they line up Cowen, Lenihan, Aherne, Fitzpatrick (and all the other traitors of this country) against the wall in Kilmainham Gaol.

They're unlikely to repeat that mistake.

maxxie

The people who back unity can join paisley and frankly **** right off!!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Paisley's gone soft the last few years. This kind of comment completely undermines partition - I'd say a lot of unionists are angry at this statement

Amhran Nua

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Time has mellowed the old blusterer

Time didn't mellow him, the tall stacks of euros supplied by the Republic to unionist groups did.

Cavehill Red

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Time didn't mellow him, the tall stacks of euros supplied by the Republic to unionist groups did.

He was already minted, so was his family, and his church and his party long before Ahern offered a penny north of the border.

So the idea he was bought off is risible. I think his personal interactions with first Hume in Europe then McGuinness in Stormont went a long way to informing his Irishness actually.

Once he'd become first minister, he'd reached the promised land as far as he was concerned. So he could afford at that point to be magnanimous (from his own perspective.)

So it was time, and power, that mellowed him. It certainly wasn't any mythical stash of euro he never saw.

Amhran Nua

Cavehill Red wrote: »

He was already minted, so was his family, and his church and his party long before Ahern offered a penny north of the border.

Great, so he refused any and all offers of financial aid for himself and his organisation(s) from the south? I've no doubt that there were many other factors involved, but nothing smooths the way like hard currency, in my experience.

Cavehill Red

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Great, so he refused any and all offers of financial aid for himself and his organisation(s) from the south? I've no doubt that there were many other factors involved, but nothing smooths the way like hard currency, in my experience.

What aid did he personally get from the South? None that I'm aware of. Nor the DUP, nor his church.

Amhran Nua

Cavehill Red wrote: »

What aid did he personally get from the South? None that I'm aware of. Nor the DUP, nor his church.

Are you kidding, he addresses the Orange Order every 12th of July, the same group who received a quarter of a million euros from the Irish government as recently as 2008. You cannot say there was no benefit to his cause, and therefore himself, in that or any of the other payments made to unionist groups.

Cavehill Red

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Are you kidding, he addresses the Orange Order every 12th of July, the same group who received a quarter of a million euros from the Irish government as recently as 2008. You cannot say there was no benefit to his cause, and therefore himself, in that or any of the other payments made to unionist groups.

Actually, he doesn't address the Orange Order any 12th of July, because he has his own loyal order to address, which does not receive any funding from the Irish government.

Amhran Nua

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Actually, he doesn't address the Orange Order any 12th of July, because he has his own loyal order to address, which does not receive any funding from the Irish government.

And yet the DUP is on great terms with the Orange order these days. Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm implying any impropriety on Mr Paisley's part here, I am not; merely pointing out that the most effective olive branches often have euro signs printed on them. And why not.

Cavehill Red

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And yet the DUP is on great terms with the Orange order these days. Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm implying any impropriety on Mr Paisley's part here, I am not; merely pointing out that the most effective olive branches often have euro signs printed on them. And why not.

Look, you could just admit you were wrong. Paisley wasn't bought off by the South. He was way too minted to be bought off, him and his party and his church and his family and his loyal order.
Incidentally, I'd be happy to imply impropriety on Paisley's part. Have a quick google of his office in Ballymena and the property speculator who owns it.

Stabshauptmann

COYW wrote: »

Really? I think we are a small part of a European nation

Some people think 2+2=5, those people are wrong too. They would benefit from a better education in math, as you would benefit from a better understanding of the EU. It is not a nation. It is a forum for collective co-operation, like the UN, only with more integration, scope and committment

and what we are seeing in relation to the ECB/IMF.... today, proves that.

I would add grammar to the list of things you would benefit from studying.

KeithAFC

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And yet the DUP is on great terms with the Orange order these days. Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm implying any impropriety on Mr Paisley's part here, I am not; merely pointing out that the most effective olive branches often have euro signs printed on them. And why not.

Whats your point? The DUP are on good terms with the orange order.. shock horror. :eek:

Amhran Nua

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Look, you could just admit you were wrong. Paisley wasn't bought off by the South. He was way too minted to be bought off, him and his party and his church and his family and his loyal order.

You appear to be labouring under the impression that having wealth and influence somehow makes one immune to the proposition of acquiring more of it. I'd say the opposite was the case.

Cavehill Red

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You appear to be labouring under the impression that having wealth and influence somehow makes one immune to the proposition of acquiring more of it. I'd say the opposite was the case.

I'm not labouring under anything.
You suggested Paisley was bought off by Dublin.
Now, we've looked at the man himself, his family, his church, his party and his loyal order and not one of them have received a red cent from the Republic.
So you were wrong. Be man enough to accept that.

Amhran Nua

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm not labouring under anything.
You suggested Paisley was bought off by Dublin.

What I said was: "the tall stacks of euros supplied by the Republic to unionist groups did."

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Now, we've looked at the man himself, his family, his church, his party and his loyal order and not one of them have received a red cent from the Republic.

Did we? I supplied one example of many, that question has yet to be answered to be honest.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

So you were wrong. Be man enough to accept that.

Is this like that time you spent a whole weekend on economy defending tooth and nail a rumour that turned out to be started by some nothing blogger in California? Heh, seriously though, there's a name for putting words in people's mouths and "proving them wrong" on that basis.

Cavehill Red

Amhran Nua wrote: »

What I said was: "the tall stacks of euros supplied by the Republic to unionist groups did."

And you were wrong, because he'd described himself as Irish long before any Irish government funding for any unionist group, and no group associated with him ever received any funding from the South.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Did we? I supplied one example of many, that question has yet to be answered to be honest.

Yes, it has. He received nothing from Dublin. Now, if you wish to prove otherwise, I'd be fascinated and so would many journalists in Northern Ireland. You could pretty much guarantee front page of the Belfast Telegraph if you can prove that allegation.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Is this like that time you spent a whole weekend on economy defending tooth and nail a rumour that turned out to be started by some nothing blogger in California? Heh, seriously though, there's a name for putting words in people's mouths and "proving them wrong" on that basis.

Do you mean the time I said there would be talks on a bailout by last weekend, and lo and behold there was? That time?
We're still waiting to see if the Telegraph's story proves true. Although, I think that debate has already left the station, since it's self-evident there was a run on deposits in both banks from the clearance house hike on securities.
But we'll find out at the end of the month and we'll see if I'm right or not then.

junder

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Paisley's gone soft the last few years. This kind of comment completely undermines partition - I'd say a lot of unionists are angry at this statement

Not such much angry as rolling our eyes and Tuting, might surprise whose to know that we don't want to part of a united Ireland outside or inside the union. You are of course welcome to apply to join the union as a separate enity

Amhran Nua

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Do you mean the time I said there would be talks on a bailout by last weekend, and lo and behold there was? That time?

No, the time you swore up and down that Irish banks were having difficulty sourcing overnight lending, linking to articles which had nothing to do with the matter to support this. I wouldn't mind but you didn't understand enough of what you were talking about to know the two weren't linked.

Regardless, look at this nonsense:

Cavehill Red wrote: »

if you can prove that allegation.

What allegation? You've proven yourself quite unable to read posts and quite able to use strawmen where it suits you so, eh, good luck with that, I suppose.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Amhran Nua wrote: »

What I said was: "the tall stacks of euros supplied by the Republic to unionist groups did."


Did we? I supplied one example of many, that question has yet to be answered to be honest.

Paisley mellowed before the republic gave money to the Orange lodges. the 250K grant was given in 2008. By then we'd already seen Paisley and McGuinness get on like a house on fire as the chuckle brothers. In 2007 we saw Paisley give Ahern a warm friendly greeting in the Phoenix park. To be honest I'd agree with Cavehill I think your comment about euros was very much incorrect.

I think it was mostly to do with realisation the republic weren't going to try and take ulster on the sly, which is something he was long suspicious of if you watch clips of him down through the years. To be fair to him I think Ahern's personality had a lot to do with this.

Scofflaw

Handbag warning.

moderately,
Scofflaw

PeterIanStaker

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I think it was mostly to do with realisation the republic weren't going to try and take ulster on the sly, which is something he was long suspicious of if you watch clips of him down through the years. To be fair to him I think Ahern's personality had a lot to do with this.

Very true, after one meeting with Ahern, Big Ian no doubt realised the man was a self serving gombeen and therefore no threat to Ulster.

KeithAFC

Ahern. A true legend.

johnnyskeleton

I misread the title as "Paisley backs unity - under Cowen".

Phew!

Bottle_of_Smoke

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Very true, after one meeting with Ahern, Big Ian no doubt realised the man was a self serving gombeen and therefore no threat to Ulster.

Hehehe not quite what I meant

PeterIanStaker

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Hehehe not quite what I meant

Ah yes, but I still hit the nail on the head:D

maxxie

If Paisley had of been born in Alabama im sure he would of been a kkk grand wizard.. How he calls himself a holy man amazes me. But infairness the people who vote for him are worse, he knows what to say to keep the voters happy!

PeterIanStaker

maxxie wrote: »

If Paisley had of been born in Alabama im sure he would of been a kkk grand wizard.. How he calls himself a holy man amazes me. But infairness the people who vote for him are worse, he knows what to say to keep the voters happy!

And if he'd been born down here, he'd be a Fianna Fail man.

maxxie

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

And if he'd been born down here, he'd be a Fianna Fail man.

He doesnt seem too obsessed with money so I dunno, hes ignornant enough to be a member for sure, and he likes to see people suffer so maybe!

Rabble Rabble

Lets give the man some credit - he has genuinely mellowed in his later years. Tolerance earned over time is still tolerance. He has had a long innings and the last decade was better than the rest.

LordSutch

Richard wrote: »

I'm not surprised - Paisley has always said that he is Irish, it's just that he sees that Irishness within a British context.

Now whilst most Irish people do not agree with that or with his beliefs about how Ireland should be governed, the feeling of Irishness in a UK context is shared by many other NI Protestants who recognise their Irishness and was certainly more popular in the past.

Don't forget that Paisley founded a cross-border body - the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, which has some churches in the Republic.

Here here & well said, I have always said that re joining the Commonwealth would bring the two parts of this island together, sadly its never going to happen

Raging_Ninja

At the end of the day it was Paisley who came to Dublin. The man was willing to sit down and talk with people, and more importantly was willing and able to work with them. That counts for a lot.

PeterIanStaker

maxxie wrote: »

He doesnt seem too obsessed with money so I dunno, hes ignornant enough to be a member for sure, and he likes to see people suffer so maybe!

The man used to have "silent collections" in his churches, so I think he's definitely fond of cash!