Roundabouts

Ejayb4

don't know if this is in the right section

Bit of a rant.. :mad:

Just annoyed at the lack of knowledge people have about driving and using roundabouts...


I entered the right hand lane approaching a roundabout(i was taking the third exit).

There was another driver in the left lane(with her indicator on to go right). I presumed she was going to take the second exit.

As the second exit approached she cut in front of me. I had to jam on the brakes or she would of taken out the front of my car

we exited the roundabout, and i held my hand on the horn.

She stopped the car dead on the road.. and shook her hands as to say what ?

I really wish that people would learn the rules of the roads and stop putting other people at risk.

biko

Join the long line of roundabout ranters

Alun

Oh good, (yet) another roundabout thread

trad

Your mistake was to presume what the other driver was going to do.

Consider every other road user a fool and drive accordingly.

Ejayb4

trad wrote: »

Your mistake was to presume what the other driver was going to do.

Consider every other road user a fool and drive accordingly.

True but also far from the truth..

I shouldn't have to ...

I went and did my lessons for driving, I got my full licence...

I pay high insurance and high tax.. and for what... to be on the road with incompetent drivers

padma

A bit like the guy the other night, Two lanes coming to the roundabout, One on the right, arrow to go straight through and another to turn right (3rd exit) Guy in the left lane, arrow to turn left and arrow to go straight through. Im in the right lane turning right, he is in the left lane going straight through. He swerves in to the right lane and blocks me from progressing normally, then swings back in to left lane to go straight through. What is so hard about staying in the proper lane on a roundabout?

Is he looking to get crashed into or what?

Vertakill

trad wrote: »

Your mistake was to presume what the other driver was going to do.

Consider every other road user a fool and drive accordingly.

While that's true in some cases, the OP would've had to have done something equally as dangerous the what the woman did to avoid that scenario (ie. Accelerate to get onto roundabout before her, or brake and let the woman go onto the roundabout first).

Either way, I don't think it's too much to ask that people use the roads properly.
Every driver will most likely have had to use a roundabout in their tests and also, while the RSA roundabout advert doesn't exactly explain every single scenario for a roundabout, it does give a good indication to what people should be doing. And it's always on the TV so there's no excuse.

gofaster_s13

I hate people driving with foglights on as well:D

?Cee?view

Vertakill wrote: »

while the RSA roundabout advert doesn't exactly explain every single scenario for a roundabout, it does give a good indication to what people should be doing.

It does explain. It just does it badly, to the extent that people still persist in the belief that the 1st and 2nd exits take the left lane and the 3rd takes the right, when of course the number of the exit is an irrelavance.

It's left, straight and right - end of...unless road markings indicate otherwise.

Ejayb4

Ejayb4 wrote: »

True but also far from the truth..

I shouldn't have to ...

I went and did my lessons for driving, I got my full licence...

I pay high insurance and high tax.. and for what... to be on the road with incompetent drivers

I think part of driving is trying to anticipate if people are going to act the idiot around you and be prepared for anything.
Few times I've avoided any trouble by that feeling they were going to do something stupid... and they did.
It's not nice but we are all on the roads together, and since the problem half the time is the "I'm alright shur I know where I'm going feck the rest" attitude, it wouldn't do for us to adopt it as well.

Ejayb4

Its very simple though.

Left lane, 1 & 2 exit.

right lane Everything after.

churchview

churchview wrote: »

It does explain. It just does it badly, to the extent that people still persist in the belief that the 1st and 2nd exits take the left lane and the 3rd takes the right, when of course the number of the exit is an irrelavance.
It's left, straight and right - end of...unless road markings indicate otherwise.

Ejayb4 wrote: »

Its very simple though.

Left lane, 1 & 2 exit.

right lane Everything after.

lol

?Cee?view

bluewolf wrote: »

lol

bluewolf - beautifully and succinctly put!

Ejayb4 - read the rules, not just the little pictures that illustrate the rules.

Zubeneschamali

Ejayb4 wrote: »

Its very simple though.

Left lane, 1 & 2 exit.

right lane Everything after.

Simple, but wrong.

Left or straight, left lane. Anything after straight, right lane.

Unless road markings and signage say otherwise, which they often do.

Ejayb4

bluewolf wrote: »

lol

churchview wrote: »

bluewolf - beautifully and succinctly put!

Ejayb4 - read the rules, not just the little pictures that illustrate the rules.

http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/roundabouts.html


Maybe im wrong..

Going Straight Ahead

Stay in the left-hand lane,

Making a Left Turn

Stay in the left-hand lane,

Leaving by a later exit

Stay in the right-hand lane

?Cee?view

@ Ejayb4,

Using your examples:

Making a left turn (not the 1st exit)

Going Straight Ahead (not the 2nd exit)

Leaving by a later exit, i.e. later than straight is right (not the 3rd or subsequent exit)


You've agreed with others here, albeit perhaps inadvertently.



I think you've now added "Maybe I'm wrong".

The problem could easily be solved if the RSA had the sense to use a roundabout in their ads with more than four exits, perfectly placed at 90 degree angles. If they had five or six exits in their pictures, they could easily demonstrate the left, straight and right rules.

Easiest way to think of it is that the rules for lane choice are the same as at any other junction. Left lane for left and straight, right otherwise.

MIRMIR82

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Simple, but wrong.

Left or straight, left lane. Anything after straight, right lane.

Unless road markings and signage say otherwise, which they often do.

So can you explain what way i should be using the roundabout in the following:

I am entering roundabout(one lane only) and i want to use the exit i consider 'straight on'.
There are 2 exits before this exit.
ie. the exit i want to take is the 3rd exit-but it really at half 12 on the clock

Thanks

ps i use the left lane am i right?

?Cee?view

MIRMIR82 wrote: »

So can you explain what way i should be using the roundabout in the following:

I am entering roundabout(one lane only) and i want to use the exit i consider 'straight on'.
There are 2 exits before this exit.
ie. the exit i want to take is the 3rd exit-but it really at half 12 on the clock

Thanks

ps i use the left lane am i right?

Correct

Ejayb4

churchview wrote: »

@ Ejayb4,

Using your examples:

Making a left turn (not the 1st exit)

Going Straight Ahead (not the 2nd exit)

Leaving by a later exit, i.e. later than straight is right (not the 3rd or subsequent exit)


You've agreed with others here, albeit perhaps inadvertently.



I think you've now added "Maybe I'm wrong".

.

added in straight after i put it up..

and i know i agreed with others..

Every multilane roundabout should have everything signposted.

Mint Sauce

Think of a roundabout as a clock face. You always approach from 6 o'clock. Any turn up to and including 12 o'clock keep left, anything after 12 o'clock keep right. Unless road markings indicate different.

Riskymove

MIRMIR82 wrote: »

I am entering roundabout(one lane only)


ps i use the left lane am i right?

er...if there is only one lane....

?Cee?view

Riskymove wrote: »

er...if there is only one lane....

Well spotted!

But you'd take a position to the left or to the right of the lane depending on whether you're turning left, right or going straight.

Ejayb4

irish-stew wrote: »

Think of a roundabout as a clock face. You always approach from 6 o'clock. Any turn up to and including 12 o'clock keep left, anything after 12 o'clock keep right. Unless road markings indicate different.

a garda and driving instructor told me that was completely wrong.. but by going by what is said on this thread fair enough..

MIRMIR82

Riskymove wrote: »

er...if there is only one lane....

There's only one lane on the road onto the roundabout, but there is enough room on the roundabout for 2 lanes of traffic???

Alun

irish-stew wrote: »

Think of a roundabout as a clock face. You always approach from 6 o'clock. Any turn up to and including 12 o'clock keep left, anything after 12 o'clock keep right.

Which works fine for the standard 4 exit 90-degree roundabout.

Now consider the exact same roundabout, but with the 'straight ahead' exit slightly to the right of 12 o'clock, at say 1 o'clock, and the 'right' exit at, say, 4 o'clock, as happens quite often. Now by your logic, you should now indicate right and use the right lane to go what is still to any sane person, straight on, which although it may be a strict interpretation of the rules, to me at least, makes no sense whatsoever.

?Cee?view

Ejayb4 wrote: »

a garda and driving instructor told me that was completely wrong.. but by going by what is said on this thread fair enough..

It's actually horrifying how many of them haven't a clue. Only recently have driving instructors become regulated and Garda knowledge of the Rules of the Road...well that's a whole other thread in itself!

Cionád

Heres a poor roundabout in Leixlip

As you approach heading towards Maynooth
http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=leixlip&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=12.530094,12.502441&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Leixlip,+County+South+Dublin&ll=53.375392,-6.520407&spn=0,0.010192&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.37233,-6.518363&panoid=rQBPodJoi9RkvIO2NFWe4g&cbp=12,291.86,,0,0.41

Two lanes, neither marked, signpost for roundabout has Celbridge on left, Maynooth straight ahead.

The exit for Maynooth: http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=leixlip&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=12.530094,12.502441&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Leixlip,+County+South+Dublin&ll=53.372577,-6.51929&spn=0,0.005096&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.372577,-6.51929&panoid=pjrxqhy3ez8lKlLFL76HEA&cbp=12,107.08,,0,9.69

One lane on exit. According to the rules, the left lane should be used for both the 1st and 2nd exits in this case (left and straight ahead)

So the right lane is practically useless unless you are making a u-turn.

To solve they should paint a left turn symbol on the left lane, and a straight ahead symbol for the right lane. In practice almost everyone uses the right lane for going straight ahead already.

Ejayb4

churchview wrote: »

It's actually horrifying how many of them haven't a clue. Only recently have driving instructors become regulated and Garda knowledge of the Rules of the Road...well that's a whole other thread in itself!

Garda,:rolleyes: I was told my car was too loud under section 12 of the Road traffic act...

eh....

section 12 you say????

?Cee?view

Alun wrote: »

Which works fine for the standard 4 exit 90-degree roundabout.

Now consider the exact same roundabout, but with the 'straight ahead' exit slightly to the right of 12 o'clock, at say 1 o'clock, and the 'right' exit at, say, 4 o'clock, as happens quite often. Now by your logic, you should now indicate right and use the right lane to go what is still to any sane person, straight on, which although it may be a strict interpretation of the rules, to me at least, makes no sense whatsoever.

You're only considering the roundabout from the direction you're approaching it.

Yes, in the scenario you give, both are right turns, so you take the right lane. But say (and this is a bit complicated to explain so apologies), someone enters from what you've given as 4 o'clock - now to them your 6 is a left and your 1 is a right. So, the rule "works" for the roundabout as a whole.

Anyhoo....the spiel above shows why I think left, straight and right are the easiest ways to think of it. People get confused with the whole clock thing.

com1

Ah yeah but then they throw this at you. 99% of the time the 3 arrows just before entering the roundabout are obscured by cars so all you see is the first set - until its too late - or, at all. Sometimes the cards are just stacked against you...

http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.352453,-6.403216&spn=0,0.009624&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.353103,-6.404222&panoid=_GA45SWzc_Xuee9cO9IxuA&cbp=12,14.67,,0,11.62

Alun

churchview wrote: »

You're only considering the roundabout from the direction you're approaching it.

Yes, in the scenario you give, both are right turns, so you take the right lane. But say (and this is a bit complicated to explain so apologies), someone enters from what you've given as 4 o'clock - now to them your 6 is a left and your 1 is a right. So, the rule "works" for the roundabout as a whole.

I guess so, but I'd still consider that the path taken by a car coming from 4 o'clock to exit at 9 o'clock to 'logically' be 'straight on' as well. Remember as well, that the physical layout of a roundabout and it's pictorial representation on signage don't always agree, and a slightly 'wonky' roundabout as I described is often represented on a sign as a perfect RoTR style one.

Anyhoo....the spiel above shows why I think left, straight and right are the easiest ways to think of it. People get confused with the whole clock thing.

I can't see the difference in complexity myself, but then again I never understood what was wrong, or potentially confusing, about the old exit counting system that I learnt in England, and why it's now considered to be 'wrong'.

?Cee?view

com1 wrote: »

Ah yeah but then they throw this at you. 99% of the time the 3 arrows just before entering the roundabout are obscured by cars so all you see is the first set - until its too late - or, at all. Sometimes the cards are just stacked against you...

http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.352453,-6.403216&spn=0,0.009624&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.353103,-6.404222&panoid=_GA45SWzc_Xuee9cO9IxuA&cbp=12,14.67,,0,11.62

You're sooo right.

If "they're" going to vary the use of the rule they should have it clearly marked. It's no bloody use under cars! Why can't all roundabouts that have marked lanes (for direction) also have those markings reflected on roadside signage. Overhead gantries would obviously never happen LOL.

Alun

churchview wrote: »

You're sooo right.

If "they're" going to vary the use of the rule they should have it clearly marked. It's no bloody use under cars! Why can't all roundabouts that have marked lanes (for direction) also have those markings reflected on roadside signage. Overhead gantries would obviously never happen LOL.

They do that in Holland, before all road junctions, not just roundabouts, just a small blue sign with an arrow in each lane indicating where to be. See http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorsorteren

The thing that annoys me more is that in many cases when they do have road markings, both arrows point straight ahead, and that's it! They may as well have saved the paint and not bothered.

?Cee?view

Alun wrote: »

I the physical layout of a roundabout and it's pictorial representation on signage don't always agree, and a slightly 'wonky' roundabout as I described is often represented on a sign as a perfect RoTR style one.

Agree completely, this can be very confusing.

Alun wrote: »

I can't see the difference in complexity myself, but then again I never understood what was wrong, or potentially confusing, about the old exit counting system that I learnt in England, and why it's now considered to be 'wrong'.

It's wrong because, for instance, the 2nd exit can be to the left or to the right. On a large roundabout, if you used the left lane for 1st and 2nd exit "system", all subsequent exits would use the right lane regardless of the number of exits, resulting in overuse of some lanes.

Using left, straight and right (the current rule) means that traffic is evenly and safely distributed on the roundabout (generally - many r'abouts are poorly designed), but more significantly, the rule can be applied to all roundabouts safely without reference to how many exits are on the roundabout or where they are positioned.

GreeBo

chhurchview wrote: »

Anyhoo....the spiel above shows why I think left, straight and right are the easiest ways to think of it. People get confused with the whole clock thing.

Sandyford/Leopardstown Roundabout
Which of the many options for straight do you choose? It depends on where you start measuring from.
Compare the red and blue lines, completely different lane required depending on your interpretation of Straight.
1st, 2nd or subsequent doesnt have this ambiguity.

celticbest

Please note all lanes are marked according to picture one.

Here is how this R/A should be driven,

Red = Left only
Blue = Left or Straight
Green = Straight / Right



Here is how I see this R/A being driven on a regular basis.



How hard is it to follow the lane marking

?Cee?view

GreeBo wrote: »

It depends on where you start measuring from.

Of course it depends where you start from. It's generally pretty clear what's straight left or right, although, granted, sometimes (rarely) it's a little bit unclear.

GreeBo wrote: »

1st, 2nd or subsequent doesnt have this ambiguity.

But it doesn't work and it's not the current rule. If it is applied, you could have cars using the right lane cutting across cars in the left lane, who are properly in the left lane as they are following the correct rule.

Mint Sauce

irish-stew wrote: »

Think of a roundabout as a clock face. You always approach from 6 o'clock. Any turn up to and including 12 o'clock keep left, anything after 12 o'clock keep right. Unless road markings indicate different.

Alun wrote: »

Which works fine for the standard 4 exit 90-degree roundabout.

Now consider the exact same roundabout, but with the 'straight ahead' exit slightly to the right of 12 o'clock, at say 1 o'clock, and the 'right' exit at, say, 4 o'clock, as happens quite often. Now by your logic, you should now indicate right and use the right lane to go what is still to any sane person, straight on, which although it may be a strict interpretation of the rules, to me at least, makes no sense whatsoever.

the above rule does not just apply to the standard roundabout, but any roundabout. I understand what your saying about to any sane person, a turn at 1pm would be straight on, I'm only going by my own driver training which I completed only 6 months ago.

Ejayb4 wrote:

a garda and driving instructor told me that was completely wrong.. but by going by what is said on this thread fair enough..

If thats the case then surely some instucters are, either not keeping update to date with their own training or not giving the correct info, see my comment in re to my own training above.

GreeBo

churchview wrote: »

Of course it depends where you start from. It's generally pretty clear what's straight left or right, although, granted, sometimes (rarely) it's a little bit unclear.

So who decides the starting point?

churchview wrote: »

But it doesn't work and it's not the current rule. If it is applied, you could have cars using the right lane cutting across cars in the left lane, who are properly in the left lane as they are following the correct rule.

It worked at least as well as the current one did, better if you discount people who will ignore both versions. It used to be the rule, I dont understand why it was changed.

@celticbest
Thats a different roundabout than my one but I hate that one also. At least they changed the lines/lanes on it recently to make it better. It used to be that approaching in the green lane the goons in blue lane also going right would not move into the left hand lane before the exit, leaving you stranded in the outside lane with an empty inside lane.

?Cee?view

GreeBo wrote: »

So who decides the starting point?

Are you serious?

You do. You're in the car.

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont understand why it was changed.

Junctions and roundabouts have become more complex and a rule which applies universally to all junctions is preferable. So a roundabout is a junction like any other with a rule for going left, straight or right.

Alun

churchview wrote: »

Junctions and roundabouts have become more complex and a rule which applies universally to all junctions is preferable. So a roundabout is a junction like any other with a rule for going left, straight or right.

.. and the counting rule works (in my view better) for those as well. The, at first sight, simple concepts of straight on, left and right are the very ones that get muddled, the more complex a junction gets I'd have thought especially when physical layout on the ground and logical / pictorial representation on signage start to diverge.

GreeBo

churchview wrote: »

Are you serious?

You do. You're in the car.

Are you serious? So what happens when I decide that the starting point is the red line and you decide its the blue one? Oh thats right, a crash. Super idea that one.

churchview wrote: »

Junctions and roundabouts have become more complex and a rule which applies universally to all junctions is preferable. So a roundabout is a junction like any other with a rule for going left, straight or right.

Thankfully counting has not become more complex.
One, Two, many.
Slightly more consistent than "straightish...for your given starting point"

?Cee?view

GreeBo wrote: »

Are you serious? So what happens when I decide that the starting point is the red line and you decide its the blue one? Oh thats right, a crash. Super idea that one.

You should know the correct lane to be in.

GreeBo wrote: »

Thankfully counting has not become more complex.
One, Two, many.
Slightly more consistent than "straightish...for your given starting point"

Well at the end of the day, regardless of how smart you want to be about it, the rule is not, 1,2, 3 etc. It's left, straight and right whether you like it or not.

Personally, I see the logic (as do others here). You clearly don't but you don't get to apply your own rules when using the road.

Zubeneschamali

churchview wrote: »

It's left, straight and right whether you like it or not.

Yes, just the same as if there's no roundabout, in fact.

neris

what about people who dont use their indicators at all on a roundabout

?Cee?view

neris wrote: »

what about people who dont use their indicators at all on a roundabout

They should be shot

GreeBo

churchview wrote: »

You should know the correct lane to be in.

So your answer to resolving the clearly illustrated potential for conflict in the left/straight/right system is "you should know what lane to be in"?

So, to sum up. The way you suggest road users determine the correct lane to be in us "you should know the correct lane to be in"?

?Cee?view

GreeBo wrote: »

So your answer to resolving the clearly illustrated potential for conflict in the left/straight/right system is "you should know what lane to be in"?

So, to sum up. The way you suggest road users determine the correct lane to be in us "you should know the correct lane to be in"?

There is no potential for conflict.

Straight - left lane.
Left - left lane.
Right - right lane.

Those that apply that rule will have no problem whatsoever.

GreeBo

churchview wrote: »

There is no potential for conflict.

Straight - left lane.
Left - left lane.
Right - right lane.

Those that apply that rule will have no problem whatsoever.

Quite ironic that in a thread about roundabouts we are going around in circles here.
Once more see this image of an existing roundabout that has NO road markings.

Now please tell me how you resolve the conflicts between the red and blue interpretations of whats straight traveling NorthEast.

CiniO

Ejayb4 wrote: »

don't know if this is in the right section

Bit of a rant.. :mad:

Just annoyed at the lack of knowledge people have about driving and using roundabouts...


I entered the right hand lane approaching a roundabout(i was taking the third exit).

There was another driver in the left lane(with her indicator on to go right). I presumed she was going to take the second exit.

As the second exit approached she cut in front of me. I had to jam on the brakes or she would of taken out the front of my car

we exited the roundabout, and i held my hand on the horn.

She stopped the car dead on the road.. and shook her hands as to say what ?

I really wish that people would learn the rules of the roads and stop putting other people at risk.

First of all, why did you presume she was going to take second exit, if she indicated right. That's obvious mistake in understanding someone else intentions.
Secondly, why did you use the horn after leaving the roundabout, as any danger at that stage was over. Are we not supposed to use the horn in build up areas only when there is direct danger on the road...

If I were you, I'd first rethink own attitude, before I was accusing someone else.

Zubeneschamali

GreeBo wrote: »

Now please tell me how you resolve the conflicts between the red and blue interpretations of whats straight traveling NorthEast.

The red one is wrong. Any more questions?