Split out of the father's rights thread

Fittle

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Horrific thing to happen today, one lunatic father will have all the smear campaign mothers claiming all fathers are out to do that to their children!
!

What an atrocious thing to say, particularly in the context of this thread

What 'smear campaign mothers' are you referring to? I doubt there is anyone who will look on either of the tragedies that happened in Ireland yesterday, who will tar ALL fathers with the one brush, based on what two, (obviously VERY ill) men did to their children yesterday.

The 'smear campaign mothers'? I've heard it all now:rolleyes:

As per Klingons article - the current Minister sees 'Equal rights for all'. I agree that unmarried fathers should be given automatic guardianship and access at birth and that they should be held accountable if they don't act in accordance with their rights.
The courts/guards can then treat both mothers and fathers equally, and treat fathers who abandon their children, the very same way a mother would be dealt with should she leave her child down at the local tesco one day, when she decides she just doesn't want to be a parent.

The guards are always involved in cases like this - where a mother abandons her child - why isn't it the same when a father abandons his child?

wolfpawnat

Fittle wrote: »

What an atrocious thing to say, particularly in the context of this thread

What 'smear campaign mothers' are you referring to? I doubt there is anyone who will look on either of the tragedies that happened in Ireland yesterday, who will tar ALL fathers with the one brush, based on what two, (obviously VERY ill) men did to their children yesterday.

The 'smear campaign mothers'? I've heard it all now:rolleyes:

There are mothers who go out of their way to try and have the fathers out of the childrens lives for their own selfish reasons. My own MIL was on the phone to me making statements such as "aren't fathers awful" and "this is why fathers should not be left alone with their children" she never mentioned the words some or occasionally!

And if she as the paternal grandmother thinks like that, what are others thinking?

Also, my mother is one of those women who claimed domestic abuse because she wanted full custody of myself and my sister for the financial gain. She spent years destroying my fathers name! So yes, I know these sort of women, I have the embarrassment of being raised by one!

And tragedies such as yesterday do have an effect on the way society sees fathers, so in regards to this thread I do see it as relevant! I see it as a disgrace that other fathers will be tarred with the same brush, because in Ireland, they will be!

wolfpawnat

Fittle wrote: »

As per Klingons article - the current Minister sees 'Equal rights for all'. I agree that unmarried fathers should be given automatic guardianship and access at birth and that they should be held accountable if they don't act in accordance with their rights.
The courts/guards can then treat both mothers and fathers equally, and treat fathers who abandon their children, the very same way a mother would be dealt with should she leave her child down at the local tesco one day, when she decides she just doesn't want to be a parent.

The guards are always involved in cases like this - where a mother abandons her child - why isn't it the same when a father abandons his child?

A mother can walk out on her child too. She can up and leave the father alone with the child and never look back. It is not illegal for her to do so, just as it is not illegal for the father to do so. It is not right, but it is not illegal. ANY parent that dumps a child in the local Tesco is reprimanded for it! I cannot imagine that they would leave any person away which such a thing.

The Guards are involved when a mother leaves because usually she is the sole Guardian, leaving them with a legal issue. The mother usually has to sign over her guardianship so the child can be put into care. The first port of call after that is usually to a family member to take the child, often the father.

metrovelvet

wolfpawnat wrote: »

A mother can walk out on her child too. She can up and leave the father alone with the child and never look back. It is not illegal for her to do so, just as it is not illegal for the father to do so. It is not right, but it is not illegal. ANY parent that dumps a child in the local Tesco is reprimanded for it! I cannot imagine that they would leave any person away which such a thing.

The Guards are involved when a mother leaves because usually she is the sole Guardian, leaving them with a legal issue. The mother usually has to sign over her guardianship so the child can be put into care. The first port of call after that is usually to a family member to take the child, often the father.

She cant do that if the father has no legal status or is not established as the father on the birthcert or if the father has not identified himself as the father. Otherwise she is leaving the child with a stranger. I know this happens with the foster care system. My son sometimes plays with two little boys he meets in the playground who were just dumped by both of his parents. I dont know the legal implications of this as being dumped is not a formal process like adoption. I dont know if the parents can come back in and reclaim them with ease or not. My guess is not really, but that is just a guess. Their foster father told me this is just the tip of the iceberg. The system is choc a bloc with dumped kids.

As for the TWO seperate incidents of dads killing their kids yesterday. Rights or no rights wont stop that from happening. Plus I dont think a tragedy like that should be exploited to flout politics whether to demonise 'smear campaign' mothers or single fathers. What a thing to say. Wow.

wolfpawnat

metrovelvet wrote: »

The system is choc a bloc with dumped kids.

Exactly. There is no obligation legally for the parent(s) to stick around! If the children are too young to talk or don't know their address you can just dump them into the system and never look back!

metrovelvet wrote: »

What lunatic father are you referring to and what tragedies happenned yesterday?

A man in Ballycotton, Co. Cork, strangled his 2yo and 6 yo daughters yesterday while their mother was at work, then he killed himself.

There was also 2 women and a 3 and a half year old and a baby under 1 year old stabbed yesterday, though there is a man in custody for it, it has not yet been released what he motives and his relation to the victims is.

metrovelvet

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Exactly. There is no obligation legally for the parent(s) to stick around! If the children are too young to talk or don't know their address you can just dump them into the system and never look back!



A man in Ballycotton, Co. Cork, strangled his 2yo and 6 yo daughters yesterday while their mother was at work, then he killed himself.

There was also 2 women and a 3 and a half year old and a baby under 1 year old stabbed yesterday, though there is a man in custody for it, it has not yet been released what he motives and his relation to the victims is.

No but there are serious implications if you want to be back in your children's lives. You can just swan in and cherry pick your parental duties after abandoning them.

Sorry, I edited my post after I checked the news.

wolfpawnat

metrovelvet wrote: »

No but there are serious implications if you want to be back in your children's lives. You can just swan in and cherry pick your parental duties after abandoning them.

Sorry, I edited my post after I checked the news.

Unfortunately there are parents that feel they cannot take the responsibility anymore, be it financially, emotionally, or the horrible fact of they just don't care

Most parents who dump their children in such a manner, I would assume, will not go looking for them again. Surely if you were wanting it to be a temporary thing you would go through the foster care system the correct way. Or if you cared for the child you would go to the adoption agencies.

metrovelvet

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Unfortunately there are parents that feel they cannot take the responsibility anymore, be it financially, emotionally, or the horrible fact of they just don't care

Most parents who dump their children in such a manner, I would assume, will not go looking for them again. Surely if you were wanting it to be a temporary thing you would go through the foster care system the correct way. Or if you cared for the child you would go to the adoption agencies.

I honestly don't know enough about it. I cant look at these two boys and start fantasising about what was going on with their parents and then start assuming, based on my own fantasies, what was going on with every other parent who dumped their kid into the system.

All I can feel for them is very very sad.

Most parents who abandon their kids probably imagine that they wont ever want to see their kids again or be able to cope with their kids but alas feelings change, so who knows if they come looking for them again.

Fittle

wolfpawnat wrote: »

There are mothers who go out of their way to try and have the fathers out of the childrens lives for their own selfish reasons. My own MIL was on the phone to me making statements such as "aren't fathers awful" and "this is why fathers should not be left alone with their children" she never mentioned the words some or occasionally!

So ONE person says this to you and you turn it into

'one lunatic father will have all the smear campaign mothers claiming all fathers are out to do that to their children!'

It's comments like that that give ALL mothers a bad name in topics like this discussion on this thread.

And you said your mother claimed domestic abuse etc.

Again, thats ONE person. Is she the leader of these other 'smear campaign mothers' you're talking about

You seem to have a habit of exaggerating the facts, in both instances.

Zulu

To be fair to Wolfpawnat - (s)he said "the smear campaign mothers". This clearly doesn't indicate "all mothers" and to suggest it does is disengenous. It's clearly referring to a minority group - which does actually exist.

Fair is fair.

metrovelvet

I think people should leave politics out of these tragedies. I think both wolfpawnats MIL [I thought you werent married though?] and wolfpawnat should not mix up their politics with these two tragedies. To me that this happened is a very bad sign of things to come. With the recession and all the doom and gloom and the henny pennying of the media, we should all be sticking together as a community to watch out for this kind of despair that would make a parent take their life and their childrens. These men were depressed as far as I can see and maybe more attention needs to be focused on the epidemics of depression in an economic crisis. I saw this happen a few times when I was in the US when we went through a very bad recession. Two fathers took their own lives of people I went to school with. I have read up on male depression and it is a bit different from the way women respond. For all the gender neutral people out there who want to play gender politics and pretend we are the same, then go ahead and stick your heads in the sand but it will do nothing to help the many men and women who will fall into despair as they fear losing their homes and providing for their children.

Fittle

Zulu wrote: »

To be fair to Wolfpawnat - (s)he said "the smear campaign mothers". This clearly doesn't indicate "all mothers" and to suggest it does is disengenous. It's clearly referring to a minority group - which does actually exist.

Fair is fair.

But to even say they are a 'minority group' insinuates that there are a collective of women out there, having clandestine meetings about ways they can ensure that their ex's don't see their children!!!

Look, we all know there are women out there who make life VERY difficult for the fathers of their children (personally, I don't know any, but I know they exist). And I'm not defending them here at all - but they do it alone - they don't meet up as a group and figure out ways in which to do it. To use terminology like 'the smear campaign mothers' just degrades this argument and leaves it in the gutter as far as I'm concerned.

What you always get on threads like this are men who desperately want to have rights to their children, and women who desperately want their children to know and be cared for, by their fathers.

It's basically two sides of the same coin - we are fighting for the same thing - for the rights of our children.

And to make sweeping statements like 'the smear campaign mothers' just adds fuel to the fire of what can become a very heated debate.

Nevyn

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