Savers told not to panic over state bailout speculation

ei.sdraob

SAVERS were told not to panic last night. The Central Bank, economists and financial advisers all insisted that depositors' savings would be safe if the country was forced to sign up for an international bailout.

Central Bank officials stress-ed that the State's €100,000 guarantee for depositors has since become part of European law, which means the guarantee is now underpinned by the European Union.

"The €100,000 guarantee amount is now set out in European law, so that is a standard to which all European savers can get assurance of their cover," the Central Bank said.

indo

Right taking a contrarian approach to anything "they" say due to the CB/DoF/Govts excellent track record.
Panic it is then?

Jokes aside and on more serious note what EU law exactly guarantees deposits up to 100K? did I miss the announcement or are we being lied to again.




edit: seems its a lie

rumour

ei.sdraob wrote: »

indo




Right taking a contrarian approach to anything "they" say due to the CB/DoF/Govts excellent track record.

Panic it is then?

Jokes aside and on more serious note what EU law exactly guarantees deposits up to 100K? did I miss the announcement or are we being lied to again.

Nanny state to the rescue.....If anybody believes that deposits are safe when the government has 6 months of cash and can't get any more, they really do belong in the creche.

Tipp Man

Just to clarify is the 100k per person, per married couple, per family etc??

So with 300k for instance, if divided equally between husband, wife and child would they be covered for all of it?

kippy

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just to clarify is the 100k per person, per married couple, per family etc??

So with 300k for instance, if divided equally between husband, wife and child would they be covered for all of it?

I wish I had the funds to justify having an interest to the answer to that question.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

yammagamma

its 100k per person if the account is in a joint account its 100k in total but im not trusting this corrupt government and have issued my banks with notice to withdraw

dolphin city

do you honestly believe that - do you not know that they change the rules according to themselves.

remember the lisbon treat - the democratic vote was NO - what did they do - told us to do it again and this time to get it right. proves the point that democracy is a word and a word only.

nothing is safe anymore - and those _ankers are NOT to be trusted.

dolphin city

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

it think it is 100 per ACCOUNT.

pathway33

So as the EU, rather than the irish state, by law are now covering deposits, does this mean the state guarantee covering all deposits in the post office has been diluted to the EU only covering €100k in the post office (Savings certs etc)?

Yitzhak Rabin

If, say the bailout failed, either for us, or the inevitable Portuguese bailout, which in turn lead to a collapse of the Euro.

What would it mean for liquid assets valued in euros? Say you have investments in shares, or investment funds, based in Ireland. What would happen to them?

I realise this is speculation, and a collapse of the euro isn't that strong a possibility...

...that said, if someone 3 years ago described whats happening today, I'd tell them they should be posting in CT.

revolver2k

so...would it be advisable to remove any savings from said banks and stick it under the mattress?

I tend to be a bit of a worrier

EL_Loco

anyone actually putting their money into something else? stocks? gold? pork scratchings?

edit: for means of holding value, not really to make profit, or as an investment as such. more a "no matter what happens with the euro or the bank I'll have this to convert back at roughly the same value"

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

pathway33

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just to clarify is the 100k per person, per married couple, per family etc??

So with 300k for instance, if divided equally between husband, wife and child would they be covered for all of it?

Just open 4 accounts of €75k each in 2 different banks

So husband a/c bank A, wife a/c bank A, husband a/c bank B, wife a/c BANK b

Be careful about falling into any means-tested social welfare trap though

The Sparrow

What would happen to a mortgage if a bank went bankrupt? Would it be written off or transferred to the liquidators who would then look for payment?

Inquitus

The Sparrow wrote: »

What would happen to a mortgage if a bank went bankrupt? Would it be written off or transferred to the liquidators who would then look for payment?

Bolded version

The Sparrow

Inquitus wrote: »

Bolded version

As I assumed.

TOOYOUNGTODIE

The Sparrow wrote: »

What would happen to a mortgage if a bank went bankrupt? Would it be written off or transferred to the liquidators who would then look for payment?

The book debts of the bank would be sold off to the higgest bidder, who would only be after a return on their investment. Pretty much the same as a bank but they would go straight to legal collection proceedings if a default is made.

yammagamma

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

.. yes 100k per account holder NOT per account if you have multiple accounts in your name or joint accounts it is 100k in total for all your accounts

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

yammagamma

Statistically over a time yes. but statistics go out the window in a time frame of a week..and for Statistics you need reliable truthful figures..somethink banks and this government dont know how to give

BrianD3

yammagamma wrote: »

.. yes 100k per account holder NOT per account if you have multiple accounts in your name or joint accounts it is 100k in total for all your accounts

No it's per depositer, per institution.
http://www.finance.gov.ie/Viewtxt.asp?DocID=5466

If you have 10 accounts in 10 different institutions each one is covered up to 100k.

re: joint accounts

SI 168 of 1995 wrote:

Where persons (being persons other than trustees or persons to whom paragraph (1) applies) maintaining, or treated by virtue of paragraph (1) as maintaining, deposits in a joint account (whether a joint deposit account or otherwise with the credit institution authorised or formerly authorised by the Bank which has become insolvent and is being wound up) are entitled to the deposit by virtue of their joint ownership of the moneys on deposit, then they shall, in the absence of special terms and conditions, each be treated, but only for the purpose of ascertaining an appropriate calculation, as having a separate deposit equal to the amount that would be produced by dividing the moneys concerned by the number of persons to whom the joint account relates.

yammagamma

BrianD3 wrote: »

No it's per depositer, per institution.
http://www.finance.gov.ie/Viewtxt.asp?DocID=5466

If you have 10 accounts in 10 different institutions each one is covered up to 100k.

re: joint accounts

that is only a spin doctor press release, ,part that is interesting is
"Legislation

Legislation will be introduced shortly by the Minister to implement the new guarantee level .
can you link me to where this new legislation came into law ??

Nehaxak

pathway33 wrote: »

Just open 4 accounts of €75k each in 2 different banks

So husband a/c bank A, wife a/c bank A, husband a/c bank B, wife a/c BANK b

Be careful about falling into any means-tested social welfare trap though

What the hell ? If you have savings like that you shouldn't be getting anything from the social welfare anyway :mad:

Scarab80

yammagamma wrote: »

that is only a spin doctor press release, ,part that is interesting is
"Legislation

Legislation will be introduced shortly by the Minister to implement the new guarantee level .
can you link me to where this new legislation came into law ??

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0013/print.html

motherriley

Found some links does this mean that the irish bank are OK until next year.

https://marketing.mop.ie/rs/vm.ashx?ct=24F76B15D7AE4EE0CDD881A8D32D901991907ABFDA9818CF5AE175767CEAC80BDF413

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/surviving-the-recession/savers-told-not-to-panic-over-state-bailout-speculation-2421882.html

BeeDI

IF, were were to leave or be shoved out of the Euro, it's easily enough understood, that our euros on deposit are converted into say Punts, which have let's say a value of €0.60.

BUT, what happens to say my Canada Life mutual fund account. It's invested in global shares, and today is valued at €28k.
Am I likely to see a much smaller reduction in value or maybe no reduction in value at all. as the underlying asset, is global blue chip shares.

That's something I am a little hazey on!

Scofflaw

Bizarre, really. If we're forced to take a bailout, the government is in a better immediate financial position, not a worse one, which in turn means the state-guaranteed banks are in a better position.

slightly boggled,
Scofflaw

Amalgam

I feel ill. I'm avoiding P.ie because of these threads.. is the threat really that immediate, or is it just 'Chicken Little' (the sky is falling..) internet gossip?

Scofflaw

BeeDI wrote: »

IF, were were to leave or be shoved out of the Euro, it's easily enough understood, that our euros on deposit are converted into say Punts, which have let's say a value of €0.60.

BUT, what happens to say my Canada Life mutual fund account. It's invested in global shares, and today is valued at €28k.
Am I likely to see a much smaller reduction in value or maybe no reduction in value at all. as the underlying asset, is global blue chip shares.

That's something I am a little hazey on!

First, we'd have to decide to leave the euro - there's no expulsion mechanism, and technically every EU country is supposed to be in the euro. Given the government is reluctant even to accept a bailout, that's extraordinarily unlikely (even within the terms of reference that include current extraordinary events).

The value of your shares wouldn't change, since they're not Irish shares anyway - whether your account was denominated in Punt Nua or not, a share worth $20 is still worth $20.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dolphin city

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

yes you are right - apologies

pinkfloydian

It's all about risk.

If I was happy that Ireland would neither leave the Euro nor devalue, I would leave my savings in the banks. So long as there is a risk of this (which would effect credit unions as well as banks), then it is prudent to protect your assets (and patriotism can take a back seat).

My question is - should I consider moving into gold for the short term i.e. until this crisis blows over?

gollem_1975

Amalgam wrote: »

I feel ill. I'm avoiding P.ie because of these threads.. is the threat really that immediate, or is it just 'Chicken Little' (the sky is falling..) internet gossip?

your guess is as good as any of ours.

i'm not taking any more money out of the bank today than I need to buy lunch with.

Scofflaw

Amalgam wrote: »

I feel ill. I'm avoiding P.ie because of these threads.. is the threat really that immediate, or is it just 'Chicken Little' (the sky is falling..) internet gossip?

The whole point of what's happening at the moment is, oddly enough, that there is no immediate threat, and that we're being pressured to take a bailout anyway to prevent other countries suffering on the bond markets as we have done.

To reiterate the basic facts - the government has no state debt that needs paying before November next year, and has enough cash on hand to cover the state's needs until June. The banks are currently accessing liquidity via the ECB - the concern with them is that they have depleted their capital and may need a fresh injection (or the rules changed).

Neither of those is what's causing the pressure for Ireland to accept a bailout. The real problem is that the bond markets aren't calming down because of the current levels of uncertainty. As a result, there's a good risk that the other problem countries - particularly Portugal - will suffer the same kind of bond interest rates we have suffered, and they do have immediate debt issues that need to be serviced. They believe that an Irish bailout will calm the markets so that when they have to go to the markets their rates will be lower, because Ireland will no longer be an element of instability.

As to whether a bailout will be bad for us - in the short term, no. In the short term it puts the government and banks in a better position. In the long term, it means there's more debt to pay back. There may also be conditions attached to the bailout, but given we're being pressured to take a bailout for the team, those conditions are likely to be far less onerous than they would have been (or would be) if we were actually seeking a bailout.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Joe 90

TOOYOUNGTODIE wrote: »

The book debts of the bank would be sold off to the higgest bidder, who would only be after a return on their investment. Pretty much the same as a bank but they would go straight to legal collection proceedings if a default is made.

In fact I remember a guy who had had his mortgage with BCCI and when they went bust whoever bought his mortgage jacked up the rate quite a bit. Can't remember the figures as it was a long time ago but it was a lot.

thebman

Scofflaw wrote: »

Bizarre, really. If we're forced to take a bailout, the government is in a better immediate financial position, not a worse one, which in turn means the state-guaranteed banks are in a better position.

slightly boggled,
Scofflaw

Well I'm moving bank shortly from AIB because I don't want my money in a bank that can't manage its own money so why should I trust it with mine?

These are failed banks being propped up and the management hasn't been properly reformed so they have likely not learned their lesson and will either make the same or different mistakes with my money in the future.

As a consumer I'll vote with my Euro.

Yitzhak Rabin

thebman wrote: »

Well I'm moving bank shortly from AIB because I don't want my money in a bank that can't manage its own money so why should I trust it with mine?

These are failed banks being propped up and the management hasn't been properly reformed so they have likely not learned their lesson and will either make the same or different mistakes with my money in the future.

As a consumer I'll vote with my Euro.

Where you moving it to, out of interest?

BeeDI

Scofflaw wrote: »

The whole point of what's happening at the moment is, oddly enough, that there is no immediate threat, and that we're being pressured to take a bailout anyway to prevent other countries suffering on the bond markets as we have done.

To reiterate the basic facts - the government has no state debt that needs paying before November next year, and has enough cash on hand to cover the state's needs until June. The banks are currently accessing liquidity via the ECB - the concern with them is that they have depleted their capital and may need a fresh injection (or the rules changed).

Neither of those is what's causing the pressure for Ireland to accept a bailout. The real problem is that the bond markets aren't calming down because of the current levels of uncertainty. As a result, there's a good risk that the other problem countries - particularly Portugal - will suffer the same kind of bond interest rates we have suffered, and they do have immediate debt issues that need to be serviced. They believe that an Irish bailout will calm the markets so that when they have to go to the markets their rates will be lower, because Ireland will no longer be an element of instability.

As to whether a bailout will be bad for us - in the short term, no. In the short term it puts the government and banks in a better position. In the long term, it means there's more debt to pay back. There may also be conditions attached to the bailout, but given we're being pressured to take a bailout for the team, those conditions are likely to be far less onerous than they would have been (or would be) if we were actually seeking a bailout.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Good summary. BUT, hard to believe that the bond markets will truely calm down because Ireland has taken a bailout.
They have picked off Greece, now Ireland. They now know they can have Portugal for desert. When Portugal keels over, the pressure will be on Spain big time ................ and then the capacity of the ECB, to prop up that monster will be sorely tested.
When it comes to that point, German people of all shades and kinds, will be loading their euros in the backs of Passats, and heading over the border to Switzerland, as they did when their beloved DM was traded in for Euros.

jmayo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There is one big fly in the ointment that you are neglecting to mention.
There is no indication of how long it would take to pay depositors back.
Of course it would be impossible to indicate thism since no one would know how bad the circumstances would be to necessitate the guarantee being invoked.
You could be waiting years and the value of your money would be much less.

pinkfloydian wrote: »

It's all about risk.

If I was happy that Ireland would neither leave the Euro nor devalue, I would leave my savings in the banks. So long as there is a risk of this (which would effect credit unions as well as banks), then it is prudent to protect your assets (and patriotism can take a back seat).

My question is - should I consider moving into gold for the short term i.e. until this crisis blows over?

Gold is the new bubble.

Scofflaw wrote: »

...
As to whether a bailout will be bad for us - in the short term, no. In the short term it puts the government and banks in a better position. In the long term, it means there's more debt to pay back. There may also be conditions attached to the bailout, but given we're being pressured to take a bailout for the team, those conditions are likely to be far less onerous than they would have been (or would be) if we were actually seeking a bailout.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Take one for the team ?
Does that mean cowen gets free drinks from the lads (Merkel included) at the next couple of EU get togethers for taking one for the team ?
That's the usual reward my friends used to accord to the guy who took one for the team.

BeeDI wrote: »

Good summary. BUT, hard to believe that the bond markets will truely calm down because Ireland has taken a bailout.
They have picked off Greece, now Ireland. They now know they can have Portugal for desert. When Portugal keels over, the pressure will be on Spain big time ................ and then the capacity of the ECB, to prop up that monster will be sorely tested.
When it comes to that point, German people of all shades and kinds, will be loading their euros in the backs of Passats, and heading over the border to Switzerland, as they did when their beloved DM was traded in for Euros.

Rightly said, if Spain starts getting hit then it is bye bye Euro.
They can bailout the Greeks for a period, they can bail us out, they can bail out the Portugese, but Spain is a whole different kettle of fish.

Of course some around here will tell you that will never happen, since the EU and the ECB have a huge fund to scare off the bad speculators.
Obviously it hasn't worked so far, but the next time will of course be different.

Meanwhile on the other side of the Atlantic the Fed is printing like crazy and hoping things pick up.

Slozer

I am very concerned about the money I have with an Irish bank and the possibility of a default by the our government. The way I'm looking at it is that our government are broke and they own most of the banks now. So in effect our money lodged with our banks is backed by a government that has no money. This just does not sound right. When you see pictures of people standing outside your bank queing up for their money its almost certainly too late and you can say bye bye to your cash. Well we have not seen this yet but take a look at this article and consider that a major bank run will be done electronically as what happened with Northern Rock a few years ago http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article24222.html
I have bought some gold for the simple reason that I am worried about what will happen to my money in the coming years. I am not concerned about making a profit, all Im concerned about is holding the value of my money.

johnnyskeleton

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Are there actual statistics on that?

Does it make a difference if a floor safe is used and the banks in question are Irish banks that are already insolvent?

AdpRo

Slozer wrote: »

I am very concerned about the money I have with an Irish bank and the possibility of a default by the our government. The way I'm looking at it is that our government are broke and they own most of the banks now. So in effect our money lodged with our banks is backed by a government that has no money. This just does not sound right. When you see pictures of people standing outside your bank queing up for their money its almost certainly too late and you can say bye bye to your cash. Well we have not seen this yet but take a look at this article and consider that a major bank run will be done electronically as what happened with Northern Rock a few years ago http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article24222.html
I have bought some gold for the simple reason that I am worried about what will happen to my money in the coming years. I am not concerned about making a profit, all Im concerned about is holding the value of my money.

Out of interest how do you go about buying gold? I have some cash sitting in the bank at the moment and wouldn't mind using some of it to do something like that, it seems a safer option then just leaving it all there.

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

As to whether a bailout will be bad for us - in the short term, no. In the short term it puts the government and banks in a better position. In the long term, it means there's more debt to pay back. There may also be conditions attached to the bailout, but given we're being pressured to take a bailout for the team, those conditions are likely to be far less onerous than they would have been (or would be) if we were actually seeking a bailout.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw,

Regarding the short term, this is what bailouts do, help you out. It would be quite ridiculous if we took a bailout that would not provide a net benefit.

The mid to long term will of course have terms and conditions. We will now all be involved in the various degrees of spin to avoid politically admitting we have lost our economic sovereignty. Do you think we will have any say in these matters? I think 'No' is the answer. For example, if we elected a new government they will have no ability to change our circumstances or the terms and conditions. We have lost our economic sovereignty, no amount of spin can alter this fact.

We are now in the process of being bailed out subject to some political niceties. This has been on the cards for almost two years, selling it as some sort of plus by measuring it between what it is and some imaginary worse scenario is I believe somewhat disingenuous.

itarumaa

They have a right to say that money is safe, I have a right not to believe them.

Therefore I have sent my extra money to Finland, where I have an account as well.

So me, this is an easy solution, if you however do not have account outside of Ireland, then I quess you have to trust the gurantee.

K-9

rumour wrote: »

Scofflaw,

Regarding the short term, this is what bailouts do, help you out. It would be quite ridiculous if we took a bailout that would not provide a net benefit.

The mid to long term will of course have terms and conditions. We will now all be involved in the various degrees of spin to avoid politically admitting we have lost our economic sovereignty. Do you think we will have any say in these matters? I think 'No' is the answer. For example, if we elected a new government they will have no ability to change circumstances either. We have lost our economic sovereignty, no amount of spin can alter this fact.

We are now in the process of being bailed out subject to some political niceties. This has been on the cards for almost two years, selling it as some sort of plus by measuring it between what it is and some imaginary worse scenario is I believe somewhat disingenuous.

I think blaming it on the EU as some do is disingenuous. Whether we are in the EU or not, we'd be running cap in hand to the IMF anyway and losing economic sovereignty that way.

I mean, Latvia or Iceland are hardly sovereign now, despite what some like to think. Euro/outside Euro/outside EU, it doesn't really matter.

lucy2010

I just want to know 1 thing- Why are they telling us not to panic?

What arent they telling us ?
I have no money anyway so nothing to take out of a bank........

gollem_1975

K-9 wrote: »

I think blaming it on the EU as some do is disingenuous. Whether we are in the EU or not, we'd be running cap in hand to the IMF anyway and losing economic sovereignty that way.

or to the bond markets.. our sovereignty would be severely curtailed if we had to pay 8%+ on our borrowings , n'est pas ?

jester77

The fact that they tell us not to panic makes me think something here is not right. I moved a lump sum out of Ireland last month, moved another yesterday. If these banks can't manage their own affairs, then I no longer have any trust in them to manage mine.

gollem_1975

jester77 wrote: »

The fact that they tell us not to panic makes me think something here is not right. I moved a lump sum out of Ireland last month, moved another yesterday. If these banks can't manage their own affairs, then I no longer have any trust in them to manage mine.

Your post is exactly why they are telling people not to panic..its bad enough having one or 2 people doing what you've done..but if everyone was to do it :eek:

gollem_1975

lucy2010 wrote: »

I just want to know 1 thing- Why are they telling us not to panic?

What arent they telling us ?
I have no money anyway so nothing to take out of a bank........

look up the phrase "self fulfilling prophecy"

rumour

K-9 wrote: »

I think blaming it on the EU as some do is disingenuous. Whether we are in the EU or not, we'd be running cap in hand to the IMF anyway and losing economic sovereignty that way.

I mean, Latvia or Iceland are hardly sovereign now, despite what some like to think. Euro/outside Euro/outside EU, it doesn't really matter.

Sorry if this appeared like I'm blaming the EU, I don't. If it were the IMF we were going to the same horsemanure would ensue where the public are lead to believe thats it's not actually our government looking for help but big bullies forcing us.

Meanwhile you and I are all supposed to forget that we are spending 20bn more than we earn and can't kick the habit. Add to that, for some inexplicable reason ( as opposed to multiple panic/crisis management reactions) for the last two years we as a state have been pumping tax payers money into private institutions that ought to have been allowed fail.

Anglo in particular is a commercial bank ordinary citizens realistically do not even have acccess to this bank. Why opn earth are they being asked to scoop up the mess. Why on earth did they just not say anglo failing well our courts will do all that is possible to help bondholders recover their money period. We choose our path (or BC and BL did) in deciding we need to spend 20bn a year more than we can afford so we better keep the guys with the money on board. To do this they screwed the tax payers. Difficult choices my ass.

Rant over, I was not intending to direct antogonism at the people willing to bail us out.