An Ghaeilge sa chóras oideachais/The Irish language in the education system

AlexderFranke

Le bhur dtoil, deirigí cén saghas polasaí ar cheart a leanúint de réir na Gaeilge ar scoil.

Please, say which kind of policies one ought to follow with regard to the Irish language at school.

Piste

Does someone have Irish homework to do?

This sounds incredibly like the diospóireacht I wrote for LC Irish in 2009...

partyatmygaff

That sounds so much like an Irish essay that I did last year.

Oranage2

Is maith liom cáis

Insect Overlord

Alexandre is learning Irish from Germany, not for a school essay

foxinsox

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithris maise de thoile?



You see battered into you at a young age you never forget!!
That's how I learnt.

Apologies I don't know where fadas live and please don't correct my spellings.. it's been a long time.:)

Piste

Heh, well in that case I'll write what I wrote for LC Irish (but in English, as this is an English-language forum)

1)As radical as it sounds, all national schools should become Gaelscoileanna. This means kids will already have a high standard of spoken Irish when coming into first year of secondary school. The way grammar is taught in primary school also needs to be looked at.

2)The syllabus needs to be modernised with more relevant literature being studied as well as more of an emphasis on history and culture.

3)More marks should be allocated for oral Irish, but I think they've already introduced this.


Hmm don't know how I managed to flesh that out to an entire essay for my exam :pac:

Oranage2

is theaga marbh é, faigh ré leis,

foxinsox

I didn't vote..

I think it should be mandatory to try and keep our language alive...

BUT

The way it seems to be taught now and over the past 50 years doesn't seem to be a bit user friendly.

It might have changed in past few years, I don't know if it has?

It should be much more user friendly, conversation Irish and concentrate on getting kids to be proud of it and enjoy it,, if possible.

I hated every minute I ever spent in Irish class throughout school. It was learning stuff off by heart...

And that aul one Peig, till the day I die I will never forget her whingy life!

Jamiekelly

Optional all the way!
Irish is a dead language and has no benefits outside of the gaeltacht.

freckly

Tir gan teanga....

Would we be Irish if we didn't have the language? Would the culture be next to die? Keep it in schools but maybe make it more communicative like the MFL courses. Reassess some of the stories and poems. Keep the culturally important ones and update the rest. But dont let the language die!

Rebelheart

Mandatory, but definitely change the teaching methods to emphasise conversation. Leave the poetry etc side of things to the more academically inclined kids who want to sit honours in the Leaving. Or even give a separate exam for academic Irish??

flyaway.

No Irish in Primary, then bring it in as an option (or possibly make it mandatory) to take up in first year, and teach it in the same way French and Spanish are taught.

MIN2511

Ó eachtrannach atá ina chónaí in Éirinn, is mian liom a labhair linn na hÉireann níos mó

Chuchoter

Either optional after primary school, or within a disadvantaged area which tends to have a higher proportion of learning disabilities, optional the whole time.

Its useless. I place little to no value on the language, sorry if you think its 'part of our culture' but cultures change and its not part of it anymore. It distracts valuable time from truly valuable subjects like English and maths. Its a shame we have primary school kids who can't read English spending hours a week on a fundamentally useless language. I would much prefer to be taking German and French instead of French and Irish, but I can't handle three foreign languages so I'm stuck giving up German:mad:

karlog

An bhfuil cead agam an toilet please.

Midnight_EG

karlog wrote: »

An bhfuil cead agam an toilet please.

An bhfuil cead agam dúl go dtí an leithreas!



That's the extent of my Irish...

Ruu_Old

Leigh anois go curamach, ar do scruid phaipear, na teoracha agus na ceisteanna, a gabhann le cuid A (Ah!)

foxinsox

Ruu wrote: »

Leigh anois go curamach, ar do scruid phaipear, na teoracha agus na ceisteanna, a gabhann le cuid A (Ah!)

You see if you'd quoted from Peig I might have been able to help...

But what you wrote up there ^

I don't see what you did there

RockinRolla

I think it has no place in the education system to be honest. Having an understanding of Irish has no benefits in the professional world and thats a fact - its patriotic I agree, but surely those with an interest in learning a seperate language should do so and be encouraged to in their own time.

School should be reserved for Science - not languages that are useless once off this small island. And this goes for religion too. Learn it in your own time.

Crea

I went to an all Irish secondary school so my fluency was good by LC but 20 years on i've forgotten most of it. I have never had any opportunity to use it since the day I walked out of school.
Now my children are learning Irish (not a Gaelscoil) and how they are being taught is shockingly bad. There doesn't seem to be any focus on using it in an everyday casual way - it all seems to be very structured. The kids don't know "Mary is ainm dom" or "Dun an doras" stuff like that. (don't know how to make a fada). They are doing sentences like "Ta cailleach ar on teilifis" (the witch is on the telly - crucial phrases!!)
No wonder people ae so crap at it because it is taught so badly so for that reason I would say it should be optional after JC. It's ridiculous that such a poorly taught subject should have such importance for university.

ShamoBuc

RockinRolla wrote: »

I think it has no place in the education system to be honest. Having an understanding of Irish has no benefits in the professional world and thats a fact - its patriotic I agree, but surely those with an interest in learning a seperate language should do so and be encouraged to in their own time.

School should be reserved for Science - not languages that are useless once off this small island. And this goes for religion too. Learn it in your own time.

Fella, not everyone lives in your " professional world".
" learn a seperate language outside school" - laughable - By your reckonong, students from Gaeltachts ( and a percentage of gaelscoils) should learn English outside school!
"...reserve for science" - go away boy!

wellboy76

I only started learning French in 1st year. I actually regret taking it up as I wish I had taken up German instead. Sure arent we spending their money! But I am rubbish at it now because trying to speak it you end up finishing sentences in bits of nonsense irish. All too confusing and too difficult to learn in the school system because of the way you are getting drummed a "language" into you by the time you get started learning a proper language.

I could probably get by speaking a bit of irish if I had given it any effort but I actually hated the way I learned it. Every Irish teacher I had in secondary would have beat it into you with a stick if they could. But I didnt want to learn it anyway. I would have much preferred to have had a foreign language even in primary to give that base in secondary.

My problem with Irish is that there are too many dialects. I am in the South east and everytime I hear it now (and that is not a lot) it sounds and is even spelt completely different. It is too difficult to learn. At least with French, German or Spanish, at least you would have a bit of drive knowing that you may have to opportunity to speak it in the future.

As far as I know, you dont need it for the Guards anymore and I dont know if you know this but there arent too many people emigrating to the Aran Islands any more. The only reason you would need it would so you could become one of them bollix Irish teachers I mentioned earlier.

Oranage2

MIN2511 wrote: »

Ó eachtrannach atá ina chónaí in Éirinn, is mian liom a labhair linn na hÉireann níos mó

Please translate, I don't speak polish.

Risteard

Optional after Junior Cert. That way people can still get a 'meaningful education' in Irish for about 11 years and if they don't like it they can pick a different subject.

foxinsox

Oranage2 wrote: »

Please translate, I don't speak polish.

I do...

it says something about living in Ireland ..
and liking something..
I think..

^ You see what I mean about the teaching methods I'm feck all use at translating Irish

Oranage2

foxinsox wrote: »

I do...

it says something about living in Ireland ..
and liking something..
I think..

^ You see what I mean about the teaching methods I'm feck all use at translating Irish

My guess is they're a foreigner in ireland and wishes to speak more irish to the irish people.

Thats what going to a gaeilscoil for 12 years does for ye!

RockinRolla

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Fella, not everyone lives in your " professional world".
" learn a seperate language outside school" - laughable - By your reckonong, students from Gaeltachts ( and a percentage of gaelscoils) should learn English outside school!
"...reserve for science" - go away boy!

Pathetic.

Location - rebeland....what was the word you used...oh yeah, laughable..lol.

Time to move into the 21st century ...fella.

AnneElizabeth

Optional after primary school or JC. Or get rid of it altogether.
We could learn all the grammar rules in Primary school and then leave it at that. They teach very little Irish in Primary nowadays which leaves the bulk of it for secondary.

wellboy76

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Optional after primary school or JC. Or get rid of it altogether.
We could learn all the grammar rules in Primary school and then leave it at that. They teach very little Irish in Primary nowadays which leaves the bulk of it for secondary.

Unless you are in one of them bloody gaelschools

GLaDOS

Optional after JC for me, that way the people who want to learn it can without the distraction of people who are forced into it holding them back

Princess Peach

I voted for the second option, cause the pole was too long for me to read.

Know you're audience.

TimeToShine

Yes because Leaving Cert Irish Paper 2 just enthrals all who set eyes upon it, giving young student the drive and determination to pursue the Irish language and hopefully keep it alive.

F*ck that, it's a stupid ridiculous subject and should be made optional after the JC, end of.

TimeToShine

Princess Peach wrote: »

I voted for the second option, cause the pole was too long for me to read.

Know you're audience.

I'll take this one...

poll*

your*

wellboy76

Come on people, how many of ye have used it since finishing school other than taking the piss out of German wans behind their backs in Ibiza?

Dionysus

RockinRolla wrote: »

Having an understanding of Irish has no benefits in the professional world and thats a fact

While that may be a "fact" in your world, it's very definitely not a "fact" in the circles within which many of us move. I've yet to be in a position where fluency in Irish has gone against me, but I've been in many where it has given me the edge.

wellboy76

Dionysus wrote: »

While that may be a "fact" in your world, it's very definitely not a "fact" in the circles within which many of us move. I've yet to be in a position where fluency in Irish has gone against me, but I've been in many where it has given me the edge.

How? Explain

XxMCRxBabyxX

wellboy76 wrote: »

Come on people, how many of ye have used it since finishing school other than taking the piss out of German wans behind their backs in Ibiza?

Quite often. In fact I'm thinking of taking lessons to improve my Irish because I would like a higher standard of the language

And I'm studying Law and History no relevance to the language or need to speak it

partyatmygaff

wellboy76 wrote: »

How? Explain

Extreme Agricultural Harvesting.

TimeToShine

Dionysus wrote: »

While that may be a "fact" in your world, it's very definitely not a "fact" in the circles within which many of us move. I've yet to be in a position where fluency in Irish has gone against me, but I've been in many where it has given me the edge.

Replace that with a fluency in French or German and you might actually have a job rather clutching at straws looking for reasons to justify the use of the useless language.

I'm not anti-irish in anyway, I just find it annoying when people who are already fluent or speak it very well think they're somehow more Irish than everyone else, hence they want it kept in schools where young people could be doing a worthwhile subject that might get them a few extra points rather than studying like dogs to scrape home a pass.

Princess Peach

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'll take this one...

poll*

your*

I don't get it.....

Wibbs

If something is valuable, people will value it, if not, they won't. This goes triple for language. All language is is a tool of communication. End of. The cultural part takes a practical back seat to that. I don't want to see Irish die out, but at the same time we don't need to continue spending the 100's of millions a year on it that we currently do and have done since the foundation of the state. If that worked we would be having this convo as Gaelige and we're not. Nuff said.

Dionysus

crayolastereo wrote: »

Either optional after primary school, or within a disadvantaged area which tends to have a higher proportion of learning disabilities, optional the whole time.

Its useless.... It distracts valuable time from truly valuable subjects like English and maths. Its a shame we have primary school kids who can't read English spending hours a week on a fundamentally useless language.

Perhaps if these students learnt such basic skills in English class rather than useless, pointless things like Shakespeare, Keats and the like they wouldn't have this problem?

At least have the decency to stop using Irish as the scapegoat for the failings of English teaching in Irish schools. The problem is patently the generally ridiculous, archaic syllabus which is forced upon Irish school kids, many of whom leave school with a shamefully low standard of English largely because of this outdated emphasis in the English syllabus.

wellboy76

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Quite often. In fact I'm thinking of taking lessons to improve my Irish because I would like a higher standard of the language

And I'm studying Law and History no relevance to the language or need to speak it

Well wait till you get into the real big bad world, hopefully you will find a job. And unsurprisingly then my friend, you will realise that it is of absolutely no use to you. Unless they have a new law and history program on the white elephant that is TnabloodyG

Dionysus

TimeToShine wrote: »

you might actually have a job rather clutching at straws looking for reasons to justify the use of the useless language.... I'm not anti-irish in anyway

I see.

TimeToShine wrote: »

I just find it annoying when people who are already fluent or speak it very well think they're somehow more Irish than everyone else

So, you're basically bitter. Thanks for the clarification.

TimeToShine

Don't derail the thread. Everyone knows the education system is f*cked up, but English at least has a Paper 1 where you actually need some form of flair in the subject to do well. Irish, on the other hand, has the whole country learning essays off by heart advocating shít they honestly don't give a flying f*ck about, and then regurgitating said crap onto paper and adding the title of the essay onto the end of each paragraph so as to "link" it in.

XxMCRxBabyxX

wellboy76 wrote: »

Well wait till you get into the real big bad world, hopefully you will find a job. And unsurprisingly then my friend, you will realise that it is of absolutely no use to you. Unless they have a new law and history program on the white elephant that is TnabloodyG

Or I could just enjoy speaking the language and will still try to use it as much as possible. I only started learning the language at 10 but I love it and don't understand the hatred for it.

And P.S. It is actually needed in Law a bit!

TimeToShine

Bitter? I did my Leaving Cert last year and I got an A2 in HL Irish, I'm pretty close to fluent and it was only the paper 2 that screwed me over, as it did with 2 guys in my school who were 100% fluent. It's a f*cking pointless language and I would much have preferred to take a subject that actually interested me rather than cramming this shít for 2 months of my life.

TimeToShine

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

And P.S. It is actually needed in Law a bit!

NO IT'S NOT.

wellboy76

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Or I could just enjoy speaking the language and will still try to use it as much as possible. I only started learning the language at 10 but I love it and don't understand the hatred for it.

And P.S. It is actually needed in Law a bit!

Never said I hated it, just dont see the point. Its a tough world outside the walls of college and the time I wasted learning a dead language I could have been learning something else that may have gone a bit more towards something else that the world beyond Rosslare port actually cares about

tolosenc

Piste is absolutely right that all primary schooling in this country should be through Irish. At that age, and with that kind of exposure, a child would pick up the language in a few months, and certainly be fluent by the time the head for secondary.

As an aside, we should be taking certain courses through French/German/Spanish in secondary school, and start learning them 3 or for years before the end of primary school.

Too many people in this country have a bitter attitude towards the language, which largely stems from a similar sentiment within the community, which needs to be changed. There is also the widespread attitude in Ireland that speaking more than one language is weird, and that learning to do so is immensely difficult - neither of which are true. Studies on children with more than one L1 show them to be far more adept at learning further languages, so why not start at home?

And for those who say that time is wasted on Irish in schools to the detriment of English and Mathematics: An bhfuil sibh dáiríre? "If it wasn't for the modh coníollach, I'd have a far better understanding of Keats and Cartesian Geometry." (http://goo.gl/LwhW7) The vast majority of things anyone studies have questionable value, and moreover, school is not a vocational training centre (to whomever suggested that school be only for science), indeed the word "educate" derives its meaning from "bringing out the person within".