The Irish Diaspora and the Irish language

murphyUK

Why has the Irish Diaspora never been encouraged to learn Irish?
There are around two million Irish passport holding citizens in the UK. No attempt has ever been made to provide people of Irish descent in Britain with any support for learning the Irish language.
The same can be said of the Irish-Americans.
Why not encourage the Diaspora to see Irish as an essential part of Irish culture? This is huge, untapped frontier for gaeilge, which could create an industry of language tourism as the Global Diaspora visit to learn their ancestral language.

Iwasfrozen

murphyUK wrote: »

Why has the Irish Diaspora never been encouraged to learn Irish?
There are around two million Irish passport holding citizens in the UK. No attempt has ever been made to provide people of Irish descent in Britain with any support for learning the Irish language.
The same can be said of the Irish-Americans.
Why not encourage the Diaspora to see Irish as an essential part of Irish culture? This is huge, untapped frontier for gaeilge, which could create an industry of language tourism as the Global Diaspora visit to learn their ancestral language.

There is zero incentive for the diaspora to learn Irish.

galwaystudent

Why would they waste their time learning a language that is hardly even spoken by anyone in the country it originated in?

ride-the-spiral

murphyUK wrote: »

Why has the Irish Diaspora never been encouraged to learn Irish?
There are around two million Irish passport holding citizens in the UK. No attempt has ever been made to provide people of Irish descent in Britain with any support for learning the Irish language.
The same can be said of the Irish-Americans.
Why not encourage the Diaspora to see Irish as an essential part of Irish culture? This is huge, untapped frontier for gaeilge, which could create an industry of language tourism as the Global Diaspora visit to learn their ancestral language.

Probably because so many Irish people don't see the language as an essential part of our culture.

Dannyboy83

The language is entirely useless in it's present form.

Go from Cork to Dublin - barely understand
Go from Cork to Kerry - dialect too different
Go from Kerry to Donegal - different language
etc.

bhovaspack

I think investment in culture is essential, but would actually be opposed to investing in something like this. The Irish culture industry abroad is already enormous, and is largely diaspora-driven without requiring any intervention from Ireland itself. It would be difficult to argue that Ireland is undersold abroad, from a cultural perspective anyway.

On the other hand, we are likely to be entering into a very difficult period for the culture and the arts here in Ireland, and it would be equally difficult to justify a large initiative that diverts money out of the country (even though I appreciate that the argument you're making is that this would entail eventual gain).

deise go deo

murphyUK wrote: »

Why has the Irish Diaspora never been encouraged to learn Irish?
There are around two million Irish passport holding citizens in the UK. No attempt has ever been made to provide people of Irish descent in Britain with any support for learning the Irish language.
The same can be said of the Irish-Americans.
Why not encourage the Diaspora to see Irish as an essential part of Irish culture? This is huge, untapped frontier for gaeilge, which could create an industry of language tourism as the Global Diaspora visit to learn their ancestral language.

Tá sé spreagadh, Tá Conradh na Gaeilge sa Ríocht Aontaithe agus na Stáit Aontaithe.
Meallann an turasóireacht na hÉireann cheana féin, téigh go leor daoine ar an gaelthachts a chloisteáil á labhairt na Gaeilge, An Cultúrlanns i dTuaisceart Éireann chomh maith turasóirí a mhealladh teanga.
It is encouraged, Conradh na Gaeilge has Branches in both the UK and the US.
Irish already generates tourism, many people go to the gaelthachts to hear Irish being spoken, The Cultúrlanns in NI also attract language tourists.

Jim236

Isn't there a gaeltacht in Ontario?

ride-the-spiral wrote: »

Probably because so many Irish people don't see the language as an essential part of our culture.

I wouldn't agree with that, but I can understand how someone from Dublin 6 would come to that kind of conclusion.


The problem with the Irish language now isn't that people have no interest in it, or that they don't want to speak it, its that its taught so badly. I mean the fact that we could all go 14 years being taught the language, only to leave school without being able to string a sentence together just shows how badly the language is taught. I've had this conversation with so many people and every time people say the same thing - I'd love to be fluent in Irish but I hated the was taught.

So for the language to become mainstream, there needs to be a complete overhaul in how its taught. Personally I think the following should be done:

• Introduce total immersion into all primary schools, and not just Gaelscoileanna.
  
• Split Irish into 2 subjects in secondary school - Irish and Irish Literature. The Irish cirriculum would then be 75% spoken, and 25% written. Irish Literature would then be all the prós, filíocht etc that students can take up if they want to.
  
• Introduce legislation to allow the public to petition a company to provide services as Gaeilge. If enough signatures are gotten, the petition can then be considered by the Irish Language Commissioner for approval. The idea of this legislation is to allow the Irish public the opportunity to use the language if given the opportunity because too often people who learn the language complain that they can't use it anywhere. And if enough people use the language, then it will set a precedence for private companies that there is a market for services as Gaeilge, and at that stage the legislation would no longer be required and companies would offer services as Gaeilge without the need to be petitioned.

But right now there just isn't the political will from any of the parties to develop the language. Instead all you have is some half-baked plan by Fianna Fáil to have a fully bi-lingual society by 2050 without any concrete measures to bring this about, and a populist proposal by Fine Gael to do away with compulsory Irish altogether without even attempting to reform the language's cirriculum, which would do nothing but kill the language.

deise go deo

Jim236 wrote: »

Isn't there a gaeltacht in Ontario?

Tá, Is ionad foghlama níos mó ná gaelthacht.
Yes, Its a learning center more than a gaelthacht.

I wouldn't agree with that, but I can understand how someone from Dublin 6 would come to that kind of conclusion.


The problem with the Irish language now isn't that people have no interest in it, or that they don't want to speak it, its that its taught so badly. I mean the fact that we could all go 14 years being taught the language, only to leave school without being able to string a sentence together just shows how badly the language is taught. I've had this conversation with so many people and every time people say the same thing - I'd love to be fluent in Irish but I hated the was taught.

So for the language to become mainstream, there needs to be a complete overhaul in how its taught. Personally I think the following should be done:

• Introduce total immersion into all primary schools, and not just Gaelscoileanna.
  
• Split Irish into 2 subjects in secondary school - Irish and Irish Literature. The Irish cirriculum would then be 75% spoken, and 25% written. Irish Literature would then be all the prós, filíocht etc that students can take up if they want to.
  
• Introduce legislation to allow the public to petition a company to provide services as Gaeilge. If enough signatures are gotten, the petition can then be considered by the Irish Language Commissioner for approval. The idea of this legislation is to allow the Irish public the opportunity to use the language if given the opportunity because too often people who learn the language complain that they can't use it anywhere. And if enough people use the language, then it will set a precedence for private companies that there is a market for services as Gaeilge, and at that stage the legislation would no longer be required and companies would offer services as Gaeilge without the need to be petitioned.

Aontaím go hiomlán le pointe haon agus a dó. Pointe trí é nach indéanta, Níl an rialtas ann cur isteach ar na seirbhísí a sholáthraíonn comhlachtaí príobháideacha, Má bhí an t-éileamh ann go mbeadh siad an tseirbhís a sholáthar ar aon nós. D'fhéadfadh sé ag obair do chomhlachtaí poiblí.
I agree fully with point one and two. Point three seems a little impracticable however. The government is not there to interfere with the services provided by private companies, If the demand was there they would provide the service anyway. It could work for public bodies.

But right now there just isn't the political will from any of the parties to develop the language. Instead all you have is some half-baked plan by Fianna Fáil to have a fully bi-lingual society by 2050 without any concrete measures to bring this about, and a populist proposal by Fine Gael to do away with compulsory Irish altogether without even attempting to reform the language's cirriculum, which would do nothing but kill the language.

FG Is ndréachtóidh sé togra nua ar oideachas. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil polasaí um mbeidh an Ghaeilge sa ceann nua.
FG is drawing up a new proposal on education. I dont think that policy on Irish will be in the new one.

Jim236

deise go deo wrote: »

Aontaím go hiomlán le pointe haon agus a dó. Pointe trí é nach indéanta, Níl an rialtas ann cur isteach ar na seirbhísí a sholáthraíonn comhlachtaí príobháideacha, Má bhí an t-éileamh ann go mbeadh siad an tseirbhís a sholáthar ar aon nós. D'fhéadfadh sé ag obair do chomhlachtaí poiblí.
I agree fully with point one and two. Point three seems a little impracticable however. The government is not there to interfere with the services provided by private companies, If the demand was there they would provide the service anyway. It could work for public bodies.

The problem with that is that a lot of the companies operating in Ireland are multi-nationals who just see it as enough to provide services in English. We've even seen with some companies that they don't even bother to provide separate advertising for Ireland, and instead just show ads from the UK, which don't even advertise their Irish website.

I'm not saying all Irish companies have gone out of their way to provide services through the language, but we've seen how lobbying from the likes of Conradh na Gaeilge has resulted in texting as Gaeilge being made available on all the main mobile networks which has seen a huge uptake since introduced, which proves that if you provide services as Gaeilge people will use them.

deise go deo

Jim236 wrote: »

The problem with that is that a lot of the companies operating in Ireland are multi-nationals who just see it as enough to provide services in English. We've even seen with some companies that they don't even bother to provide separate advertising for Ireland, and instead just show ads from the UK, which don't even advertise their Irish website.

I'm not saying all Irish companies have gone out of their way to provide services through the language, but we've seen how lobbying from the likes of Conradh na Gaeilge has resulted in texting as Gaeilge being made available on all the main mobile networks which has seen a huge uptake since introduced.

At the end of the day, how will companies ever realise theres a market for the language if they don't bother to provide services through it?

Tuigim go bhfuil fadhb ann, ach ní dóigh liom go bhfuil reachtaíocht an bealach a réiteach é. Stocaireachta ó CnaG agus daoine eile is dócha go bhfuil an bealach is fearr chun dul. Deán Foras na Gaeilge iarracht a chur chun cinn ar Úsáid na Gaeilge ag gnólachtaí, is dócha go mbeadh siad níos rathúla más rud é go bhféadfaí iad a thaispeáint freisin éileamh láidir ar sé.
I understand there is a problem, but I dont think legislation is the way to solve it. Lobbying from CnaG and others is probably the best way to go. Foras na Gaeilge try to promote the Use of Irish by businesses, they would probably be more successful if they could also show strong demand for it.

Like since leaving school I've lost most of the Irish I had, because I've no way to use it. But if I knew I could walk into McDonalds or Supermacs and order a meal as Gaeilge or whatever, I'd use it, and I doubt I'd be the only one.

Ní amháin go Supermacs fhonn deis a thabhairt duit i nGaeilge, a bheidh siad ar lascaine a thabhairt duit má dhéanann tú.Má úsáideann tú na Gaeilge agus tá an Gaelcárta beidh roinnt gnólachtaí a thabhairt duit ar lascaine é, an liosta de na gnólachtaí ar an gcárta.:D
Not only do Supermacs allow you order in Irish, They will give you a discount if you do. CnaG have a Card called a Gaelchárta, If you use Irish and have the card some Businesses will give you a discount, The list of businesses is on the card.

Gaelchárta:cool:

CERTIFICATE IN IRISH LANGUAGE
& CONTEMPORARY IRISH HISTORY AND CULTURE
http://www.teg.ie/english/about_teg.htm
There are language courses and exams offered around the place. There just aren't that many interested.

I do remember chatting to a German who had learned Irish via distance learning here once.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

murphyUK

I'm of Irish parents and I can honestly say that never in my life (or anyone I know of who has an Irish background) have I ever been approached by Conradh na Gaeilge or any organisation and said 'hey, this the language of your ancestors, you should learn it' etc.

Most people of Irish descent are barely even aware of the language's existence. It doesn't even sound 'Irish' it has become so unfamiliar. I'm only vaguely aware because my family are from the gaeltacht (an area where people pretend to speak Irish but don't).

As Irish citizens we should have some kind of entitlement to even a very basic education of the language.

As useless as it is in an everyday sense, it is important culturally and symbolically - and I'm just saying it's a real shame that there's been no effort to teach it in Irish areas like Cricklewood, Coatbridge or Digbeth (as opposed to universities in Holland, Poland or Germany).

dlofnep

Surely this is a question of culture, rather than politics. The Irish language has been discussed in detail. It will revolve around 6 or 7 posters sharing subjective sentiments. I use the language on a daily basis and find use for it. I'm sure we'll hear the usual "Sure it's useless" lark.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The language is entirely useless in it's present form.
Go from Cork to Kerry - dialect too different

It's the same dialect. Gaelainn na Mumhan. There are subtle differences between Cork & Kerry Gaeilge, but it's not a different dialect.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Go from Kerry to Donegal - different language
etc.

Er, no it isn't. It's the same language, just a different dialect. It would serve you well to actually know what you're posting about before making erroneous remarks?

dlofnep

murphyUK wrote: »

As Irish citizens we should have some kind of entitlement to even a very basic education of the language.

If you live in Ireland, you do. If you don't - The Irish state isn't going to be able to fund the costs of every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to learn the Irish language. But as DF pointed out - Irish language funding is provided to a few universities around the world that teach it as a subject.

deise go deo

murphyUK wrote: »

I'm of Irish parents and I can honestly say that never in my life (or anyone I know of who has an Irish background) have I ever been approached by Conradh na Gaeilge or any organisation and said 'hey, this the language of your ancestors, you should learn it' etc.

Brainsí de Chonradh na Gaeilge ar bun ag daoine le spéis sa Ghaeilge. A ní cuideachta ag díol a táirge. Má ghlactar le d'leasmhara, is féidir leat a chur ar bun a chur le brainse tú féin agus an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn, beidh siad cabhrú leat gach is féidir leo.
Branches of Conradh na Gaeilge are set up by people with an Interest in Irish. Its not a company selling a product. If your interested, you can set up a branch yourself and promote the Language, they will help you all they can.

southsiderosie

From what I saw in the US, the most important forms of cultural attachment to Ireland in the diaspora are through music, dance, and Catholicism, not language. However, there are options for people to study the language at third level; Boston College is one example.

Dannyboy83

dlofnep wrote: »

It would serve you well to actually know what you're posting about before making erroneous remarks?

Quite obviously, I was establishing a scale, it would serve you well to devote more time to English comprehension skills.

dlofnep

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Quite obviously, I was establishing a scale, it would serve you well to devote more time to English comprehension skills.

My comprehension is just fine, thank you.

murphyUK

It’s a bit disappointing to hear such dismissive language such the Irish Diaspora as being referred as ‘any Tom, Dick or Harry.’ This suggests that the Irish community in Britain has no connection with Ireland and should be treated the same as any foreign community, such as Dutch people attending university courses in Irish in Utrecht.

Many of our parents came to the UK because the Irish state was unable to support them economically (a phenomena many Irish born people are experiencing today and are heading once again for Britain). They sent home huge remittances which helped keep the state ticking over when it came near to failing. When the economy recovered in Ireland, the favour was not returned.

The Diaspora has provided so much politically and culturally to Ireland (e.g. James Connolly, Jim Larkin, The Pogues etc). Yet, unlike other Western nations, Ireland does not provide (and never has) even the minimum of cultural support to its Diaspora and leaves them completely disenfranchised.

And for those who are being forced to emigrate to the UK because of the current economic crisis, this, it seems, is all the Irish state will think of you and your children – ‘Tom, Dick or Harrys.’

No voting rights once you leave Ireland’s shores and no help to maintain your language and culture. You’re on your own, mate.

Jim236

murphyUK, in all fairness you can't genuinely expect the Irish government, particularly in the times we're in, to fund and provide Irish language courses in every country that has an Irish diaspora?

deise go deo

murphyUK wrote: »

No voting rights once you leave Ireland’s shores and no help to maintain your language and culture. You’re on your own, mate.

Má ghlactar le d'suim a choinneáil do theanga, ansin isteach CnaG fháil. Is féidir leat a chur ar bun a chur le brainse i gcás ina bhfuil cónaí ort a fháil agus daoine eile a bhfuil spéis acu sa Ghaeilge i gceist.
If your interested in Maintaining your language then get onto CnaG. You can set up a branch where you live and get others with an interest In Irish involved.

CnaG


Beidh siad cabhrú leat Gaeilge a fhoghlaim, is féidir leo a sheolann tú ábhar poiblíochta etc
They will help you learn Irish, They can send you promotional material etc.

They already have branches in Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow

Dannyboy83

dlofnep wrote: »

It's the same dialect. Gaelainn na Mumhan. There are subtle differences between Cork & Kerry Gaeilge, but it's not a different dialect.

"subtle" is not the word I would choose.

I've never yet encountered a Pole who I couldn't speak Polish with.
I've spoken Russian to people from the Westernmost Lithuania, to the Easternmost part of Russia.
I'm able to interpret the meaning of a certain amount of Slovakian, Czech despite not evening knowing those languages etc.

Listening to someone from Donegal speak Irish sounds to me like Aliens have descended. It's completely unintelligible. And I went to school in Cork!

Admittedly now, my Irish is poor, because I have no reason to maintain it, but even when I spoke it well, I realized that a trip to another county or province usually rendered my knowledge of Irish to be useless.

Anyway, I won't post anymore on this topic because my position is not going to change. Irish is useless and a complete embarrassment in it's present form, unsurprising giving that the Irish state is it's guardian.
I imagine if the state of Israel was it's guardian for example, it would be a lot more use.

All I know is that I heard a local lad from UCC speaking fluent Chinese last week, I got speaking to him and he couldn't string a sentence of Irish together.
Says a lot in my book.

fin.

#15

• Introduce total immersion into all primary schools, and not just Gaelscoileanna.

That's an awful scenario. Prevent millions of people from using their first language, really?

It's one thing to offer them the choice of learning/working through another language, but quite another to compel someone to do so.

Jim236

#15 wrote: »

That's an awful scenario. Prevent millions of people from using their first language, really?

It's one thing to offer them the choice of learning/working through another language, but quite another to compel someone to do so.

Yeh because kids leaving Bunscoileanna/Gaelscoileanna have absolutely no command of the English language...:rolleyes:

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

"subtle" is not the word I would choose.

Cad ba mhaith leat é a úsáid chun cur síos focail na difríochtaí idir Gaeilge i Chorcaí agus Chiarraí as Gaeilge? Cad iad na difríochtaí móra?
What words would you use to describe the differences between Cork Irish and Kerry Irish? What are the Major differences?

All I know is that I heard a local lad from UCC speaking fluent Chinese last week, I got speaking to him and he couldn't string a sentence of Irish together.
Says a lot in my book.

Go raibh sé in ann Gaeilge a labhairt go mbeadh sé sin go leor i do leabhar? Tá Cumann Gaelach láidir i UCC.
Had he been able to speak Irish would it have said alot in your book? There is a strong Irish society in UCC.

That's an awful scenario. Prevent millions of people from using their first language, really?

It's one thing to offer them the choice of learning/working through another language, but quite another to compel someone to do so.

Conas? bhfuil an Béarla mar ábhar éigeantach i ngach Gaeilscoileanna.
How? English is a manditory subject in all Gaeilscoileanna.

dlofnep

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

"subtle" is not the word I would choose.

Well then, you obviously don't have a clue about the Irish language if you think there is anything beyond subtle differences between the Irish spoken in Kerry & Cork. They speak the same dialect of Irish.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I've never yet encountered a Pole who I couldn't speak Polish with.

I've yet to find an Irish person who I couldn't speak Irish with. What's your point? You do know that strong dialectal differences aren't unique to the Irish language, right? German & Spanish are two examples of languages with massive dialectal differences.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Listening to someone from Donegal speak Irish sounds to me like Aliens have descended. It's completely unintelligible. And I went to school in Cork!

Well maybe if you could actually speak Irish, you'd understand it? Your logic is asinine.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Admittedly now, my Irish is poor

But yet you're qualified to discuss the intricacies of the Irish language? Brilliant!

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

, because I have no reason to maintain it, but even when I spoke it well, I realized that a trip to another county or province usually rendered my knowledge of Irish to be useless.

Well then, your level of Irish wasn't "well". If I go to Ring, or the Conamara - I can speak Irish there just fine. Of course there are going to be issues with dialects at times - but to think that this is unique to the Irish language demonstrates complete ignorance with regards to linguistics.

murphyUK - where are you?

Maybe we can point you in the direction of some local or online resources.

It is not realistic to expect there to be an Irish cultural center in every town where there might be someone who wants to learn Irish.

Something like Turas Teanga is available on Amazon if you want to get a start on your own.

Also your large font comes across as aggressive.

dlofnep

murphyUK wrote: »

It’s a bit disappointing to hear such dismissive language such the Irish Diaspora as being referred as ‘any Tom, Dick or Harry.’ This suggests that the Irish community in Britain has no connection with Ireland and should be treated the same as any foreign community, such as Dutch people attending university courses in Irish in Utrecht.

No, it doesn't suggest anything of the sort. All it suggests is that the Irish tax payer can barely afford to fund Irish language projects here at a local level - let alone people who aren't even living in the state.

murphyUK wrote: »

The Diaspora has provided so much politically and culturally to Ireland (e.g. James Connolly, Jim Larkin, The Pogues etc). Yet, unlike other Western nations, Ireland does not provide (and never has) even the minimum of cultural support to its Diaspora and leaves them completely disenfranchised.

What cultural support are you expecting exactly? For A state with 4 million people to fund the cultural aspirations of the 100-200 million odd Irish diaspora around the world? Let's be realistic.

If you want to learn Irish - Take classes, or find a conversational group. You complain about not having access to the Irish language. Christ, I didn't have access to it here in Ireland 4 years ago! I was forced to start up a conversational group locally. There were no classes, and there was no support from the Government.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

What words would you use to describe the differences between Cork Irish and Kerry Irish? What are the Major differences?

Chasmic was the first one which sprang to mind when you asked me, so I'll go with that. Not just Cork & Kerry, but intercounty.
There was a guy from the North in our class in school and he said he was almost learning a new language in the south.
I can't elaborate on the differences, because I cannot understand anything they say to me. And when I've tried to speak to them, they are unable to understand anything I say to them.
You could speak with Cork people no problem, but it seems the continuity ends there.
It's laughable really.
We all pretended to learn this language for 12 years.
What a huge waste of time and productivity.

Had he been able to speak Irish would it have said alot in your book? There is a strong Irish society in UCC.

Yes, it would have said that 12 years of schooling weren't wasted.

I mean, let me ask you, does it seem right to you?

He masters Chinese in 3/4 years, yet can't string a sentence together in a language he learned for 12 years.

I spoke better Polish & Russian after 3 years each than 12 years of Irish.
Granted I wasn't half bad at the Irish language at one stage, but that was Cork Irish only.

Like there are loads of dialects with Russian, more than you could imagine, as there is with English, yet there is one standarised system which everyone can understand - same as with English.
If it exists in Irish - teach it!
If it doesn't - create it!

The Israelis learned Hebrew in a generation.
4 generations on, and the Irish hate our historical language more than ever.


p.s.
The comment about enforcing all learning in schools in Irish just shows how out of touch those individuals who wish to encourage the language are.
People should be made to love the language, not despise it.

southsiderosie

murphyUK wrote: »

Why has the Irish Diaspora never been encouraged to learn Irish?
There are around two million Irish passport holding citizens in the UK. No attempt has ever been made to provide people of Irish descent in Britain with any support for learning the Irish language.
The same can be said of the Irish-Americans.
Why not encourage the Diaspora to see Irish as an essential part of Irish culture? This is huge, untapped frontier for gaeilge, which could create an industry of language tourism as the Global Diaspora visit to learn their ancestral language.

If the point is to encourage cultural tourism, what do you think more people will participate in: music or language study?

For most people, language study is difficult and boring, especially for adults.

If Ireland wants to increase heritage tourism, it would help if it actually took better care of the heritage sites it has right now, rather than pouring money into getting the diaspora to learn a very difficult language that most people who actually live in Ireland are never going to learn well.

dlofnep

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

You could speak with Cork people no problem, but it seems the continuity ends there.

Oh jesus christ. Look, if people outside of Cork can't understand you - It's nothing to do with the language. It's because your level of Irish is woeful. I can understand Cork & Kerry Irish just fine, and I learned my Irish in Waterford.

Basically - You're talking shít. You're trying to maintain an argument about the dialectal intricacies of the Irish language, and yet you've already admitted your Irish is poor - and demonstrated complete ignorance with regards to the dialects.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's laughable really.

Oh it's laughable alright, but not for the reasons that you've mentioned.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

He masters Chinese in 3/4 years, yet can't string a sentence together in a language he learned for 12 years.

And I learned Irish in 3/4 years. What's your point? Until students immerse themselves in the language, they won't become competent in it. You cannot learn a language from a book.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I spoke better Polish & Russian after 3 years each than 12 years of Irish.
Granted I wasn't half bad at the Irish language at one stage, but that was Cork Irish only.

LOL @ "Cork Irish only".

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Chasmic was the first one which sprang to mind when you asked me, so I'll go with that. Not just Cork & Kerry, but intercounty.

D'iarr mé cad iad na difríochtaí idir Gaeilge i Corcaigh agus Ciarraí. Gan faoi buachaill a fhios agat ón Tuaisceart. Is é an freagra is beag go bhfuil difríochtaí idir Gaeilge i Corcaigh agus Ciarraí. Is dócha go bhfuil níos lú ná idir Corcaigh agus Ciarraí slang i mBéarla.
I asked what the differences are between Cork and Kerry Irish. Not about a lad you know from the North. The answer is there are very few differences between Cork and Kerry Irish. Probably less than there is between Cork and Kerry slang in English.

Yes, it would have said that 12 years of schooling weren't wasted.

I mean, let me ask you, does it seem right to you?

He masters Chinese in 3/4 years, yet can't string a sentence together in a language he learned for 12 years.

Níl, Tá sé míceart, Ach tá sé aon rud a dhéanamh le bheith ann canúintí éagsúla. Tá sé mar gheall ar churaclam bocht agus tosaíochtaí áit chontráilte
No, Its not right, But it has nothing to do with the existence of different Dialects. It is due to a poor curriculum and misplaced priorities.

Like there are loads of dialects with Russian, more than you could imagine, as there is with English, yet there is one standarised system which everyone can understand - same as with English.
If it exists in Irish - teach it!
If it doesn't - create it!

Tá caighdeán oifigiúil ann, tá sé d'fhoghlaim sa Scoil.
There is an official standard of Irish. It is tought.

p.s.
The comment about enforcing all learning in schools in Irish just shows how out of touch those individuals who wish to encourage the language are.
People should be made to love the language, not despise it.

Agus nach bhfuil duine ag múineadh na Gaeilge ar an mbealach is fearr a dhéanamh grá dóibh é? Ní bheadh sé ciall a bhaint as níos mó a dhéanamh chun iad a mhúineadh i gceart ionas gur féidir leo é a úsáid agus taitneamh a bhaint as?
And not teaching someone Irish is the best way to make them love it? Would it not make more sense to teach it to them properly so they can use and enjoy it?

Dannyboy83

Calm down please dlofnep, no need for the aggression.

Deise,
another point that is important which never gets mentioned was one which a friend from abroad suggested to me.

The Gombeenisim with the Irish language in school, is almost like preparation for the gombeeisim of the state when you leave school.
One just becomes an extension of the other and the whole thing becomes very normalised to us, whereas to people outside the state, it seems completely irrational.

I think the mediocrity with regard to the way Irish is taught, even the fact that it is taught/rammed down people's throats, really helps to establish the "Ah sher it'll do" mentality so prevalent in old Ireland.
I guess that's why the Celtic Tiger took so many of us by surprise.

Irish is kind of like a national joke - all the Irish are in on it and we're codding the rest of the world. It's a really, really long game of pretend.

I always find, when you try to explain the status of the Irish language to foreigners - they scratch their head in sheer confusion.
I've even had people accuse me of playing a trick on them, LOL!:)

When you think about it; all the Irish pupils are forced into learning a language they detest and know has zero use when they leave school, which they cannot hear spoken anywhere on a daily basis, the teachers are all utterly inconsistent and rely on a dictionary and a rulebook:D because they have no idea how the language should be spoken.
The blind leading the blind!:pac:
It's like a prison sentence.

If Irish had been something we'd been allowed to find ourselves, I think it would have been fun, something to be proud of.

Instead it was something that was forced into us by wafflers and people trying to keep a job, similar to the ancient ol'priest forcing a bit of religion into you to try and keep himself relevant to some degree.

Jim236

Dannyboy do yourself a favour and speak for yourself, not everyone "detests" the Irish language. Most people in fact, actually want to be fluent in it.

southsiderosie

Jim236 wrote: »

Dannyboy do yourself a favour and speak for yourself, not everyone "detests" the Irish language. Most people in fact, actually want to be fluent in it.

Besides people in their 30s who wistfully say "I wish I had learned Irish" do you ave any evidence that most Irish people want to be fluent in Irish?

Jim236

southsiderosie wrote: »

Besides people in their 30s who wistfully say "I wish I had learned Irish" do you ave any evidence that most Irish people want to be fluent in Irish?

Do you have any evidence to say they don't? I'm only in my 20s but I've talked to a good few people about this, and most say the same thing - they want to be fluent in it but hated the way it was taught.

southsiderosie

Jim236 wrote: »

Do you have any evidence to say they don't? I'm only in my 20s but I've talked to a good few people about this, and most say the same thing - they want to be fluent in it but hated the way it was taught.

YOU are the one who said most people wish they were fluent - I'm not making claims.

I would like to see some kind of evidence to support this, because to me people in their 30s saying "Oh, I wish I had learned Irish" sounds like the same people in their 30s who regret giving up piano lessons when they were kids. And nostalgia isn't enough to build some kind of policy off of: nobody every suggests that piano lessons be mandatory for all children until thy are 17, but yet some people would do the same for Irish. So I would like to see where this linguistic "mandate" comes from.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Deise,
another point that is important which never gets mentioned was one which a friend from abroad suggested to me.

The Gombeenisim with the Irish language in school, is almost like preparation for the gombeeisim of the state when you leave school.
One just becomes an extension of the other and the whole thing becomes very normalised to us, whereas to people outside the state, it seems completely irrational.

Irish is kind of like a national joke - all the Irish are in on it and we're codding the rest of the world. It's a really, really long game of pretend.

I always find, when you try to explain the status of the Irish language to foreigners - they scratch their head in sheer confusion.
I've even had people accuse me of playing a trick on them, LOL!:)

Nuair a bheidh tú é a mhíniú mar joke náisiúnta fuath gach duine ach freisin ar im nach ionadh a cheapann siad a amaideach, tá sé, nach bhfuil in aice le ionadaíocht chothrom ar an staid.
When you explain it as a national joke that everyone detests but is also in on im not surprised they think its a trick, it is, that is not near a fair representation of the situation.

When you think about it; all the Irish pupils are forced into learning a language they detest and know has zero use when they leave school, which they cannot hear spoken anywhere on a daily basis, the teachers are all utterly inconsistent and rely on a dictionary and a rulebook:D because they have no idea how the language should be spoken.
The blind leading the blind!:pac:
It's like a prison sentence.

Nach bhfuil gráin gach mac léinn na Gaeilge, A mórán a dhéanamh, ach ansin roinnt breá liom í.
Not all students detest Irish, A Few do, but then Some love it.

Is féidir le Gaeilge le cloisteáil i go leor áiteanna ar bhonn laethúil. TG4 mar shampla.
Irish can be heard in many places on a daily basis. TG4 for example.

Múinteoirí Gaeilge go maith in ann an teanga a labhairt, ach tá siad iachall a úsáid ar churaclam uafásach nach bhfuil dáileog obair.
Teachers of Irish are well able to speak the language, they are just forced to use a terrible curriculum that dosent work.

If Irish had been something we'd been allowed to find ourselves, I think it would have been fun, something to be proud of.

Instead it was something that was forced into us by wafflers and people trying to keep a job, similar to the ancient ol'priest forcing a bit of religion into you to try and keep himself relevant to some degree.

Mar sin, nach bhfuil Gaeilge spraoi nó rud éigin a bheith bródúil as toisc go bhfuil sé éigeantach sa scoil? Ní aontaíonn liom.
So Irish is not fun or something to be proud of because it is compulsory in School? I disagree.

Jim236

southsiderosie wrote: »

YOU are the one who said most people wish they were fluent - I'm not making claims.

I would like to see some kind of evidence to support this, because to me people in their 30s saying "Oh, I wish I had learned Irish" sounds like the same people in their 30s who regret giving up piano lessons when they were kids. And nostalgia isn't enough to build some kind of policy off of: nobody every suggests that piano lessons be mandatory for all children until thy are 17, but yet some people would do the same for Irish. So I would like to see where this linguistic "mandate" comes from.

Funny how you didn't respond to Dannyboy's claim that ALL school pupils detest Irish.:rolleyes:

And again I'm not some nostalgic twat in his 30s regretting I didn't do more to learn Irish etc etc. Go out and actually ask young people what they think of Irish, and you'll find most people aren't as anti-Irish as you'd like to think.

Dannyboy83

Hmmmmmm.........you are non-militant!
Is this a trap?
I've never encountered a non-militant Irish speaker before.
They're generally like the people who've given up smoking and spend their lives going around................anyway, pleasant surprise:) genuinely!

deise go deo wrote: »

D'iarr mé cad iad na difríochtaí idir Gaeilge i Corcaigh agus Ciarraí. Gan faoi buachaill a fhios agat ón Tuaisceart. Is é an freagra is beag go bhfuil difríochtaí idir Gaeilge i Corcaigh agus Ciarraí. Is dócha go bhfuil níos lú ná idir Corcaigh agus Ciarraí slang i mBéarla.
I asked what the differences are between Cork and Kerry Irish. Not about a lad you know from the North. The answer is there are very few differences between Cork and Kerry Irish. Probably less than there is between Cork and Kerry slang in English.

There are sufficient differences that a leaving cert student who can get a B1 in one part of the country, cannot understand another native speaker from a different part of the country

Again, back to my point.
There are plenty of differences between North Cork slang and South Cork slang.
There is still 1 standard English language tho, when you can use in London, Cork, China, New York, Bangalore, Moscow etc. etc.
If that exists in Irish - they keep it well hidden!

Níl, Tá sé míceart, Ach tá sé aon rud a dhéanamh le bheith ann canúintí éagsúla. Tá sé mar gheall ar churaclam bocht agus tosaíochtaí áit chontráilte
No, Its not right, But it has nothing to do with the existence of different Dialects. It is due to a poor curriculum and misplaced priorities.

Glad to hear you say it!
Impressed!

Tá caighdeán oifigiúil ann, tá sé d'fhoghlaim sa Scoil.
There is an official standard of Irish. It is tought.

Hmmm.......I don't think so.
I recall a module on our leaving cert about the variations between Cork and elsewhere. Only vaguely recall it now.

Have a friend in the civil service who is a native speaker, who received complaint from an Irish teacher about her level of Irish. The teacher was extremely red faced to learn she was a native speaker:D

Agus nach bhfuil duine ag múineadh na Gaeilge ar an mbealach is fearr a dhéanamh grá dóibh é? Ní bheadh sé ciall a bhaint as níos mó a dhéanamh chun iad a mhúineadh i gceart ionas gur féidir leo é a úsáid agus taitneamh a bhaint as?
And not teaching someone Irish is the best way to make them love it? Would it not make more sense to teach it to them properly so they can use and enjoy it?

Nope, not if the approach is militant.
It's not your 'duty' to learn Irish - contrary to the beliefs of those who speak it and try to force it on the rest of us.
It should never be rammed into kids, as it was into us.

It should never be assumed that we all have a burning desire to learn the language, anymore than we have a burning desire to learn Polish, because they are equally as relevant in Ireland 2010 (well, Polish is probably a lot more relevant to be fair)

I definitely don't want my kids to have to learn it, as I did.
It should be a choice and something to be enjoyed.

Thinking back to the days in school learning Irish sends shivers down my spine and today I associate it with incompetence, cowboyism, punishment, something to be endured, Jesus enduring the cross, just gotta hang on - just gotta make it.

Irish is often used as a weapon by those who speak it well, often to condescend against and ridicule those who don't, by means of exclusion. There is immense snobbery associated with the language, unrivalled by any other, in my experience.

Sometimes I get romantic about the language, like if I go to my girlfriends country and hear them swap languages so easily and think that we are really missing out on something.
Then I come back to Ireland and back to reality and remember why it's just a pipe dream.

southsiderosie

Jim236 wrote: »

Funny how you didn't respond to Dannyboy's claim that ALL school pupils detest Irish.:rolleyes:

And again I'm not some nostalgic twat in his 30s regretting I didn't do more to learn Irish etc etc. Go out and actually ask young people what they think of Irish, and you'll find most people aren't as anti-Irish as you'd like to think.

Why are you getting so defensive? Dannyboy made a vague claim, and you made a vague counterclaim.

Can anybody provide any evidence - not hearsay - on how Irish people view Irish-language education? Because, returning to the topic of the thread, if Irish people are not interested in learning it properly, why would you think the diaspora would be - especially since they will have far fewer chances to actually practice it?

Dannyboy83

southsiderosie wrote: »

Because, returning to the topic of the thread, if Irish people are not interested in learning it properly, why would you think the diaspora would be - especially since they will have far fewer chances to actually practice it?

NAIL.HAMMER.HEAD

Actually, I'm just gonna step out of the the thread now, I'm just derailing it

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Hmmmmmm.........you are non-militant!
Is this a trap?

Tá sé.
Yes.;)

I've never encountered a non-militant Irish speaker before.
They're generally like the people who've given up smoking and spend their lives going around................anyway, pleasant surprise:) genuinely!

Tá mé cinnte go bhfuil tú, ach bhí siad ag labhairt i mBéarla ag an am.
Im sure you have, they were just speaking English at the time.

There are sufficient differences that a leaving cert student who can get a B1 in one part of the country, cannot understand another native speaker from a different part of the country

Gan idir Corcaigh agus Ciarraí, is féidir le daoine Tá líofa i chanúint éagsúla a bheith deacair d'fhoghlaimeoir a thuiscint, ach má bhí tú ag foghlaimeoir an mBéarla foghlaim Béarla i Meiriceá agus chuaigh siad ansin go Béal Feirste tá mé cinnte go n-aontaíonn tú go mbeadh siad díreach mar Chaill leis an chanúint áitiúil.
Not between Cork and Kerry, Yes people fluent in a different dialect can be difficult for a learner to understand, But if you had a learner of English learning English in America and they then went to Belfast I am sure you agree they would be just as lost with the local dialect.

Hmmm.......I don't think so.
I recall a module on our leaving cert about the variations between Cork and elsewhere. Only vaguely recall it now.

Go mbeadh na héagsúlachtaí idir na Mumhan, agus in aon áit eile. Tá trí canúintí na Gaeilge. Mumhan, Connacht agus Uladh.
Tá cuid den tástáil éisteachta a bheidh dírithe ar na canúintí. Is é sin toisc go bhfuil sé cad a dhéanfaidh tú é is dóichí ná a chloisteáil á labhairt Gaeilge.
Tá caighdeán oifigiúil. Is é sin an méid atá shíl i scoileanna.
That would be the variations between Munster and elsewhere. There are three dialects of Irish. Munster, Connacht and Ulster.
There is a section of the listening test devoted to the Dialects. That is because it is what you will most likely hear when speaking Irish.
There is also an official standard. That is what is tought in schools.

Have a friend in the civil service who is a native speaker, who received complaint from an Irish teacher about her level of Irish. The teacher was extremely red faced to learn she was a native speaker:D

Tá fhios ag formhór na múinteoirí Gaeilge an caighdeán oifigiúil. Is féidir le cainteoirí dúchais a úsáid go minic ar a dtugtar bearlchás nuair a labhairt i nGaeilge, Abairtí aistriú go díreach ón Béarla go Gaeilge nach bhfuil ciall a bhaint as Gaeilge ó thaobh na gramadaí.
Most Irish teachers know the official standard. Native speakers can often use what is known as bearlchás when speaking in Irish, Phrases translated directly into Irish from English that dont make sense in Irish from a grammatical point of view.


Mar shampla,''''Fair Plé Duit'' mbeannaí coitianta go leor i chonamara mar bhealach a rá go maith. Tá sé i ndáiríre ach''Fair Play'' le 'é'.
For example ''Fair plé duit'' is common in conamara as a way to say well done. It is really just ''Fair Play'' with an é in it.(The proper way to say well done is ''Maith thú'')

Nope, not if the approach is militant.
It's not your 'duty' to learn Irish - contrary to the beliefs of those who speak it and try to force it on the rest of us.
It should never be rammed into kids, as it was into us.

It should never be assumed that we all have a burning desire to learn the language, anymore than we have a burning desire to learn Polish, because they are equally as relevant in Ireland 2010 (well, Polish is probably a lot more relevant to be fair)

I definitely don't want my kids to have to learn it, as I did.
It should be a choice and something to be enjoyed.

Thinking back to the days in school learning Irish sends shivers down my spine and today I associate it with incompetence, cowboyism, punishment, something to be endured, Jesus enduring the cross, just gotta hang on - just gotta make it.

Tá dea-argóint a dhéanamh roghnach é, áfach, go bhfuil roinnt daoine den tuairim go bhfuil sé sin go léir is gá a dhéanamh. Gaeilge sa scoil a bhfuil gá le leasú mór ar dtús, ansin is féidir é a dhéanamh roghnach.
There is a good argument for making it optional, however some people are of the opinion that that is all that needs to be done. Irish in scool needs a major reform first, then it can be made optional.

Irish is often used as a weapon by those who speak it well, often to condescend against and ridicule those who don't, by means of exclusion. There is immense snobbery associated with the language, unrivalled by any other, in my experience.

I ndáiríre tá a mhalairt fíor. Ceann de na fadhbanna atá aimsithe i Gaelthachts má tá Grúpa Gaeilgeoirí beidh siad ag aistriú go Béarla má tá Gaeilge ag neamh timpeall ionas nach ndéanfar iad a eisiamh.
Actually the opposite is true. One of the problems that has been identified in the Gaelthachts is if there is a group of Irish speakers they will switch to English if there are non Irish speakers around so as not to exclude them.

Sometimes I get romantic about the language, like if I go to my girlfriends country and hear them swap languages so easily and think that we are really missing out on something.
Then I come back to Ireland and back to reality and remember why it's just a pipe dream.

Tá a lán daoine le Gaeilge a fhoghlaim mar bhrionglóid píopa. Is é an rud ach go stopann foghlama agus iad ag baint gaeilge a úsáide as iad féin.
Many people have Learning Irish as a pipe dream. The only thing that stops them learning and using Irish is themselves.

Mick Regan

There is an interest out there, e.g, stats for the USA here: http://www.usefoundation.org/userdata/file/Research/Languages/irish_gaelic.pdf

I also believe there are quite a few classes in New York just for example. So, whilst the motivation for learning the language often gets questioned there are still many around the world who want to preserve it, even if purely for cultural reasons.

southsiderosie

Mick Regan wrote: »

There is an interest out there, e.g, stats for the USA here: http://www.usefoundation.org/userdata/file/Research/Languages/irish_gaelic.pdf

I also believe there are quite a few classes in New York just for example. So, whilst the motivation for learning the language often gets questioned there are still many around the world who want to preserve it, even if purely for cultural reasons.

But the numbers are dire.

According to your link, Massachusetts has the most Irish speakers in the US, with 3,280. But this is out of a total population of 6.4 million. Yet according to the US census bureau, 25% of Massachusetts residents claim Irish ancestry. So the state with the largest 'pool' of potential Irish speakers still has an teeny percentage of the population that actually takes it up - not even 1%.

Massachusetts, New York and Chicago are probably the three places in the US most associated with Irish heritage and culture, and people are very proud of it. But their connection to Ireland and how they perceive Irish culture has little to nothing to do with language.

You could argue that if there was more money or resources available then more people would study it, but I doubt it. Again, if you are going to engage in a cultural practice that isn't perceived as necessary, then why would you engage in language study, especially when taking weekend dance or music lessons is more fun?

I still don't see an argument for pushing Irish language in the diaspora. The people who want to spend the time and energy on it will, but it doesn't seem worth it to try and build linguistic tourism around it, or to pour more public money into it, since it is basically a hobby for a tiny, tiny percentage of the population.

Mick Regan

Hi southsiderosie,

totally agree with you, just making the point that there is an interest out there and that some choose to learn the language off their own backs (because they want to). I think i read recently that New York in particular is seeing an increase in Irish speakers, and that those learning tend to be US citizens with an Irish heritage.

However if Ireland was to pursue a linguistic tourism initiative it'd be better doing a deal with the Chinese and offering English classes in Ireland. From a purely economic perspective the returns would be far greater.

Precious flower

In my opinion the only way to become fluent in Irish is to have all schools teaching most if not all subjects through it, 40 minutes everyday is not going to do it. The goverment is just ignoring the problem, they're making it worse not better.

deise go deo

Precious flower wrote: »

In my opinion the only way to become fluent in Irish is to have all schools teaching most if not all subjects through it, 40 minutes everyday is not going to do it. The goverment is just ignoring the problem, they're making it worse not better.

It isent practicable to have all schools teach through Irish, The desire is not there from the people and the pool of competent Irish Teachers is simply too small. Its true that even if the Irish curriculum was reformed and tought effectively it would still not turn out fluent speakers. It would however give people a solid grasp on the Language and Importantly it would give them a positive rather than a negative experience of the language. This would be enough to see an increase in the use of Irish in an Every day sence as people would be much more confident in their use of the language. The other step is to support the gradual growth of the gaeilscoil movement in line with demand. This would allow for the pool of competent teachers to grow naturally in line with increasing demand.

If both these steps were taken together a gradual growth in the use of Irish would result, and correspondingly services provided through Irish would grow in the private sector due to increasing demand and services provided by the state would become financially justified. I believe that is the path to a Bi-Lingual Nation.

Edit:
The most important point is that doing this need not cost a cent more than is already being spent on the Language.

#15

Jim236 wrote: »

Yeh because kids leaving Bunscoileanna/Gaelscoileanna have absolutely no command of the English language...:rolleyes:

Well done on missing the point.