November Open Meeting

Nulty

Today had decent enough racing but tomorrow is gonna be very good.

I like Razor Royale in the Morson Group Handicap Chase but another one has caught my eye at a price.

Mad Max built for chasing and went particularly well over 2m4f at Aintree after a very good display in the Arkle.

I have one question - how do you know if a particular race will be run on the 'new' course or the 'old' course?

UrbanSea

They say in the racing post beside the race what course it'll be over,saw it yesterday.
I'm going for Long Run to win and Ballyfitz each way in the other.

totelfootball

Long Run is the proverbial good thing!!! Get on now at 4/1 with Stah james... I've filled my boots

UrbanSea

I got 3/1 in Celtic yesterday,4/1 would be lovely.

totelfootball

I'd double him up with Bertie's Dream in the 1:20... Definite chance of repeating his March heroics... that double gets a very definite thumbs up from me!!

HigginsJ

Long Run is such a good thing there has to be better prices elsewhere.

I have Tchico Polos and Great Endeavour.

Chicago Grey in the Novice Chase for me.

HigginsJ

Gutted!! Chicago Grey was winner all over

Juwwi

Dis Chicago Grey myself .

Went for Catch Me each way and Mad Max eachway in pp's first 5 places.

hucklebuck

I am hate wally cohen:mad:

Threw my 5fold and double winnings from yesterday into Long Run and Pigeon Island ew.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I think that is the end of my ten to follow if that twit keeps getting the leg up, I could even find a better stride and I have never sat on a horse.

Quickbeam in the 310 looks good value imo.

handsomecake

he always has to be doing something .he didnt stop messing with the reigns the whole way around .all the other jockies were motionless.

what now for long run?
is it just hype?
did he need the run?
he is only 5 so can he improve?

HigginsJ

He is only a 5yo and will improve but much like Dunguib and Brian O'Connell a change into top jockey hands will help.

UrbanSea

He never even positioned him along the winner,never came within about 5 lengths of him in the race,he should have at least put it up to him.
His father wouldn't take his son off the the horse.

totelfootball

my nailed on certainties weren't quite as nailed on as I'd hoped...

totelfootball

only upside is that I was supposed to go to Cheltenham for the wknd.. Would have gotten annihilated if I was in the Cotswolds....

See there is always a bright side ... or am I clutching at straws???

UrbanSea

There is most of the time :pac:

hucklebuck

I know its difficult to jock your own son, but at the end of the day he has spent a lot of money on the horse and he must want to see the horse reach the heights it should reach and not constantly be held back by a complete **** box.

Morgans

Horse wasn't good enough today. A jockey might help his fencing somewhat but its obvious that horses under Ruby, Barry, AP, all fall. The horse wasnt good enough and doesnt jump well enough in big fields. If you think any other jockey would have won on him today, you are deluded.

UrbanSea

Morgans wrote: »

Horse wasn't good enough today. A jockey might help his fencing somewhat but its obvious that horses under Ruby, Barry, AP, all fall. The horse wasnt good enough and doesnt jump well enough in big fields. If you think any other jockey would have won on him today, you are deluded.

I think a different jockey certainly would have got him nearer the leader and put him in with a shout.

Morgans

Lots of punters dont like being wrong. They often look for excuses when the horse they are certain will win, doesn't win. Blaming the jockey is a common excuse. There was nothing more that the jockey could do to win the race. One good jump here or there might have got him second, but that's racing. If you dont accept that you were wrong, you wont learn. Those who thought Long Run was the best horse in the race were wrong, given that he would be carrying 5lbs more with another jockey, there is virtually no chance that another jockey would have won on him. Those who thought Little Josh would win, were right. Just accept that you were wrong, learn from the race, and use the knowledge for the next day. Dont just keep saying that you were right, regardless of the result.

hucklebuck

Morgans wrote: »

Horse wasn't good enough today. A jockey might help his fencing somewhat but its obvious that horses under Ruby, Barry, AP, all fall. The horse wasnt good enough and doesnt jump well enough in big fields. If you think any other jockey would have won on him today, you are deluded.

If you honestly think the jockey would not be the difference you are deluded. Did you see how many times he had the horse at the roots of the fence and trying to get over them in slow motion. He is not that bad of a jumper, he looks to me as a horse that needs to be ridden into them and he will wing them.

The horse needs to have an idea as to what the jockey wants intead of being punched into some and pulled before others, if you have a jockey who can find a strike and gives the horse encouragement a few strides before you will find around 2 lengths a fence. He lost a lot of ground at most fences as the jockey is very poor.

Long Run is a very good horse who will win major prizes with a half decent jockey. If Cohen stays on him he can go into the horses with promise thread.

hucklebuck

Morgans wrote: »

Lots of punters dont like being wrong. They often look for excuses when the horse they are certain will win, doesn't win. Blaming the jockey is a common excuse. There was nothing more that the jockey could do to win the race. One good jump here or there might have got him second, but that's racing. If you dont accept that you were wrong, you wont learn. Those who thought Long Run was the best horse in the race were wrong, given that he would be carrying 5lbs more with another jockey, there is virtually no chance that another jockey would have won on him. Those who thought Little Josh would win, were right. Just accept that you were wrong, learn from the race, and use the knowledge for the next day. Dont just keep saying that you were right, regardless of the result.

Little Josh ran a great race but even with the extra 5 lbs a decent jockey would have had Long Run eyeballing him two out. It's not sour grapes its opinion. I was each way on Pigeon Island as I was expecting Twiston Davies to have a good race and picked Pigeon due to his liking for the course.

Morgans

hucklebuck wrote: »

If you honestly think the jockey would not be the difference you are deluded. Did you see how many times he had the horse at the roots of the fence and trying to get over them in slow motion. He is not that bad of a jumper, he looks to me as a horse that needs to be ridden into them and he will wing them.

The horse needs to have an idea as to what the jockey wants intead of being punched into some and pulled before others, if you have a jockey who can find a strike and gives the horse encouragement a few strides before you will find around 2 lengths a fence. He lost a lot of ground at most fences as the jockey is very poor.

Long Run is a very good horse who will win major prizes with a half decent jockey. If Cohen stays on him he can go into the horses with promise thread.

I had a long post type out about how nonsensical your argument was (every horse gaining 2l on each other at every fence is my favourite line) but couldn't be bothered. Its clear that you are right and even in face of huge evidence, you wont change from it.

UrbanSea

Morgans wrote: »

Lots of punters dont like being wrong. They often look for excuses when the horse they are certain will win, doesn't win. Blaming the jockey is a common excuse. There was nothing more that the jockey could do to win the race. One good jump here or there might have got him second, but that's racing. If you dont accept that you were wrong, you wont learn. Those who thought Long Run was the best horse in the race were wrong, given that he would be carrying 5lbs more with another jockey, there is virtually no chance that another jockey would have won on him. Those who thought Little Josh would win, were right. Just accept that you were wrong, learn from the race, and use the knowledge for the next day. Dont just keep saying that you were right, regardless of the result.

True,no one likes being wrong. I hate it when people blame jockeys for when their horse doesn't run well and I rarely do it,I'm not that deluded.
Long Run wasn't the best horse on the day,no doubt about that.As I already mentioned I think he would have had a better chance,not necessarily that he would have won,if a different jockey was on him,that horse was never put near enough to the leader to get by him,the jockey was over confident in his horse's ability to catch the leader,forgot he was running in a handicap race.
And I have to disagree with your point about him being a claimer and another jockey would have had virtually no chance of winning with the 5 pound swing.
I'd much rather a good jockey with no claim than a bad one just for the sake of getting a few pounds off.

Morgans

Watched the race again and counted what could be termed as mistakes.

http://horses.sportinglife.com/Video/Racing/0,27770,406045_3,00.html

There was a nod in the first in the straight first time round (no ground lost) but could be classed as a mistake, the most serious error came at the next where he went through the top and lost about a length. There was one fence when Fingeronthepulse jumped across in front of him, and while no mistake was made maybe lost 1/2l but no real momentum. At the second last, the jockey was untidy after the horse went through the top and lost maybe 1l. In every other fence, the horse jumped not only cleanly but for the most part quickly.

The horse wasnt good enough. Plain and simple.

Sportinglife race description, not perfect
in touch, not fluent 7th, driven to challenge when mistake 2 out, stayed on same pace
Racing post description, not perfect
Tracked leaders, not fluent 6th, mistake 7th, hit 12th, headway 4 out, chased winner 3 out but no impression, one pace when blundered 2 out, kept on same pace run-in and lost 2nd final 50yds

Morgans

greetings wrote: »

True,no one likes being wrong. I hate it when people blame jockeys for when their horse doesn't run well and I rarely do it,I'm not that deluded.
Long Run wasn't the best horse on the day,no doubt about that.As I already mentioned I think he would have had a better chance,not necessarily that he would have won,if a different jockey was on him,that horse was never put near enough to the leader to get by him,the jockey was over confident in his horse's ability to catch the leader,forgot he was running in a handicap race.
And I have to disagree with your point about him being a claimer and another jockey would have had virtually no chance of winning with the 5 pound swing.
I'd much rather a good jockey with no claim than a bad one just for the sake of getting a few pounds off.

Long Run was never far from the lead. And he wasnt alone in thinking that Little Josh had gone from home too early. The horse simply hadnt the speed to keep up and when he went after him he was collared for second on the hill. In short hand, he wasnt good enough. As for the claimers, 5 of the first 6 and 7 of the first 8 home yesterday were claimer ridden. Little Josh wouldnt have won the race yesterday without the claim.

UrbanSea

Morgans wrote: »

Long Run was never far from the lead. And he wasnt alone in thinking that Little Josh had gone from home too early. The horse simply hadnt the speed to keep up and when he went after him he was collared for second on the hill. In short hand, he wasnt good enough. As for the claimers, 5 of the first 6 and 7 of the first 8 home yesterday were claimer ridden. Little Josh wouldnt have won the race yesterday without the claim.

I'd be happy to see a different claimer on him. Again I'm not saying that he would have won with a different jock,but I'd still like to see someone else on him and several others feel the same.
Adrian Heskin is a brilliant jockey by the way.

Morgans

greetings wrote: »

I'd be happy to see a different claimer on him. Again I'm not saying that he would have won with a different jock,but I'd still like to see someone else on him and several others feel the same.
Adrian Heskin is a brilliant jockey by the way.

I agree about Heskin. But he had planned his race to get to Long Run at the final fence. He made the same mistake as Waley-Cohen in that they hoped Little Josh had gone too early and was going to come back up the hill, and had timed their runs accordingly. They didnt have the horses underneath them to do anything about it. Both the second and third were as knackered as the winner coming up the hill.

UrbanSea

Morgans wrote: »

I agree about Heskin. But he had planned his race to get to Long Run at the final fence. He made the same mistake as Waley-Cohen in that they hoped Little Josh had gone too early and was going to come back up the hill, and had timed their runs accordingly. They didnt have the horses underneath them to do anything about it. Both the second and third were as knackered as the winner coming up the hill.

Dancing Tornado needed every yard to get as near to the winner as he did. That horse needs further. 3 miles or another 2 furlongs would be better I think.

HigginsJ

What a performance by Gauvain. 576 day absense to overcome. Fair play to Hugh Taylor for tipping him up too

TheMilkyPirate

Some of you are hilarious! There is NO such thing as a good thing in racing or any other sport for that matter, And if you think that there is you will never get very far with gambling. And those of you blaming the jockey are clueless he's actually a decent jockey who gave long run a very good ride yesterday, You all just seem to forget that it was long runs seasonal debut in a VERY competitive race giving weight to most of the field on a track he arguably doesn't like.

Didn't hear anybody complain when he ran away with the feltham and the kingmaker with sam on his back now did we. He is not a good jumper which is one thing you have to be around cheltenham, Something dunguib proved to us last year.

EDIT: Long run is still a very good horse don't right him off yet. I don't think he'll beat kauto at kempton but stranger things have happened. Remember imperial commander won this race off a mark of 139 and went on to win a gold cup, Long run was only 4 1/2 lengths away yesterday off 158. He'll be a beast on a flat track.

UrbanSea

baraca wrote: »

Some of you are hilarious! There is NO such thing as a good thing in racing or any other sport for that matter, And if you think that there is you will never get very far with gambling. And those of you blaming the jockey are clueless he's actually a decent jockey who gave long run a very good ride yesterday, You all just seem to forget that it was long runs seasonal debut in a VERY competitive race giving weight to most of the field on a track he arguably doesn't like.

Didn't hear anybody complain when he ran away with the feltham and the kingmaker with sam on his back now did we. He is not a good jumper which is one thing you have to be around cheltenham, Something dunguib proved to us last year.

Don't think it was called a good thing. Wonder where he'll go now. I wouldn't send him up against Kauto next time unless he wants a hammering.
The horse would have won those races with me on it's back. The horse isn't as good as what we've been hearing evidently.

Morgans

greetings wrote: »

Don't think it was called a good thing. Wonder where he'll go now. I wouldn't send him up against Kauto next time unless he wants a hammering.
The horse would have won those races with me on it's back. The horse isn't as good as what we've been hearing evidently.

When it wins, its always the horse, when it loses, its always the jockey. Its never the punter who is wrong. As for talk about a good thing. Didnt take long to forget the first page of this thread.

UrbanSea

I never once described the horse as a good thing,but see others did.
The horse wasn't good enough,but that doesn't mean the jockey is good enough.Even if it won I'd still rather a different jockey.

Goldcupfav

Some performance from Menorah off top weight !!

Johner

Brilliant stuff, love his form 121212- and now another 1 to add to the sequence.

Morgans

greetings wrote: »

I never once described the horse as a good thing,but see others did.
The horse wasn't good enough,but that doesn't mean the jockey is good enough.Even if it won I'd still rather a different jockey.

Good. That is fair enough. There is no doubting that a number of jockeys would be classed as superior to Sam Twiston-Davies (as well as Waley-Cohen) but it doesn't really matter. Ruby and McCoy cant win all races.

Its the people who knew who was riding the horse before they bet, still decided to bet, and then decide that he was still the best horse in the race, but the stupid jockey was at fault are the ones that need to learn most. Of course, they are all using Long Run's form when ridden by Waley-Cohen as the basis of his superstar reputation.

Its like when Jim Culloty was blamed for Best Mate's defeat in the Supreme Novices hurdle, and the cries went out for a better jockey. Then when Best Mate lost under McCoy, it was said that McCoy didnt suit the horse. When it wins its all the horse, when it loses its the jockey.

HigginsJ

Fantastic performance from Menorah in what looked a very difficult race. Must be top 3 in prices for the champion hurdle now.

Morgans

Fine performance, but wouldn't get too carried away. Still needs to improve his jumping to be capable to tackling the very best on their best form. Price is about right for the Champion I think.

Juwwi

Getmeoutofhere was very dissapointing.
He seemed to be out going well at the top of the hill but just stoped.

Goldcupfav

robbie1977 wrote: »

Getmeoutofhere was very dissapointing.
He seemed to be out going well at the top of the hill but just stoped.

Think they could send him chasing now. Jonjo said in the interview before the race that they have schooled him over fences and after 2 disappointing runs so far this season that could be the route they take now.

TheMilkyPirate

greetings wrote: »

Don't think it was called a good thing. Wonder where he'll go now. I wouldn't send him up against Kauto next time unless he wants a hammering.
The horse would have won those races with me on it's back. The horse isn't as good as what we've been hearing evidently.

Yes it was, not by you but by others. I think he is that good we'll see him in alot better light on a flat track, And the horse is only 5 don't forget! I'd love to see him go to kempton on boxing day just to see what he's really made of.

UrbanSea

baraca wrote: »

Yes it was, not by you but by others. I think he is that good we'll see him in alot better light on a flat track, And the horse is only 5 don't forget! I'd love to see him go to kempton on boxing day just to see what he's really made of.

He'd need to improve by about 30 pounds judging by his run yesterday.I'd find it hard to see him beating a fully fit Kauto,who'll improve leaps and bounds for his run in Down Royal.


As for Get me Out of Here,he didn't even try on his seasonal reappearance. Must have regressed big time over the summer if he's 22 lengths behind Menorah,assuming everything was alright.

mdwexford

Long Run wasnt good enough yesterday, nothing to do with the ride obviously.
Could be he doesnt like the undulations of Cheltenham as thats twice he hasnt lived up to expectations now. Id give him an easier task next than the King George to be honest even though it usually cuts up and he has shown a liking for the track.

Menorah was very good today, be interesting to see him in the Bula or Christmas hurdle. He still needs to progress further to trouble Binocular, Hurricane Fly and Khyber Kim but he could well be capable of it.

HigginsJ

My one worry for Menorah is that the Champion Hurde trials can be run at a muddling pace and doubt he would have the turn of foot of Binocular or Hurricane Fly.

I would back him in a field of 10 or more but maybe avoid him in smaller fields. His 2 defeats last year came at flat tracks (ascot & aintree) in 9 runner fields.

hucklebuck

Morgans wrote: »

I had a long post type out about how nonsensical your argument was (every horse gaining 2l on each other at every fence is my favourite line) but couldn't be bothered. Its clear that you are right and even in face of huge evidence, you wont change from it.

My point about the 2 lengths was he got in close a lot and I think he is one of these horses that needs to be fast into a fence to jump it right, I don't think 2 lengths is too far off the mark to be honest.

To clarify I did say I backed him, I did not call him a sure thing and I said with a better jockey I thought he would be eyeballing Little Josh 2 out, I did not say he would have won the race.

My frustation is Cohen is getting the leg up and holding back what could well be the next generation of machine.

hucklebuck

Menorah looked good today alright, the ground seemed quite tacky and it will be much better at Cheltenham. I would not be opposed to backing him at the quoted odds for the Champion.