Dodgy cofee machine

aflib

why i agreed to doing this:mad:
anyway.fellas rings me in a cofee shop(not opened yet) to ask me to connect his machine to a spur.the

knobend

of a sparks never came back to fix it.so,its a 5 core flex,brown,black,grey,blue and earth.he told me that brown and grey were L and ble and black are N.wired it into the spur as the the other was already wired into the machine.put up the MCB,switched on the spur and away the machine went.after a few min i decided to screw the spur back to the box only to notice that the spur was v hot and the cable was quite warm.the fella then calles the sparks who put it in and he said i need to change the 13A fuse to a higher one.i didnt get to speak to him.he just layed on the message to the owner.so i left it earlear saying id call back in the morning.i could tell him that i couldnt be

arsed

but he has a few handy bits for me to do and id be glad of the cash.any suggestions on what i could do folks.
Ta


Edit by mod, I removed a few bits here. I just inserted a spoiler, I'm sure we can all still see why this was changed and have learned from this great experience and will not copy or reporduce such lovely words again. Thanks all.

meercat

i think first you should check the loading of the coffee machine
you may have to upgrade the supply cable also
any make for coffee machine so we can check it

2011

it.so,its a 5 core flex,brown,black,grey,blue and earth.

Look closely at the nameplate. I would suspect that this is a 3 phase coffee machine, which is not unusual for a commercial type! I have seen these as high as 20kW

Brown = L1
Black = L2
Grey = L3
Blue = N
Green/Yellow = E

2011

Here is a 3 phase coffee machine:

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/catering/1618193

aflib

meercat wrote: »

i think first you should check the loading of the coffee machine
you may have to upgrade the supply cable also
any make for coffee machine so we can check it

forget the name of it now,typical.might just ring the manufactures tomorrow

aflib

2011 wrote: »

Here is a 3 phase coffee machine:

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/catering/1618193

it is something similar to that one

2011

might just ring the manufactures tomorrow

Well it might be an idea to ask them if it is 3 phase or not and what size the load is!

it is something similar to that one

That one is 3 phase!!

aflib

http://gaggia.ie/machine/gaggia-gd/

this one but an older version.

2011

the fella then calles the sparks who put it in and he said i need to change the 13A fuse to a higher one

You do know that a spur will not take more than a 13A fuse?? Also this is a very unsafe situation. It should be isolated immediately.

My advice is to get the electrician back to sort this out ASAP or you could be in serious trouble!

meercat

agree
if you are unsure ,leave it alone and get sparks back

2011

Well this one is the same make as your one and it is available in 3 phase:

http://www.gaggia-espresso.co.uk/Gaggia_Espresso_Machine_Deco.html


The fact that yours has a 5 core flex with the 3 phase colors suggests to me that it is 3 phase!

Davy

meercat wrote: »

agree
if you are unsure ,leave it alone and get sparks back

Just not the original sparks. He sounds like a clown

2011

Just not the original sparks. He sounds like a clown

He does.

The problem is that he might have certified the installation, so this could get messy!

Davy

2011 wrote: »

He does.

The problem is that he might have certified the installation, so this could get messy!

But jesus even a apprentice would have more cop on than this. Most machines, appliances are pretty straight forward in my eyes regards if they are 1ph or 3ph. Usually pretty well labelled too for clarity

2011

But jesus even a apprentice would have more cop on than this. Most machines, appliances are pretty straight forward in my eyes regards if they are 1ph or 3ph. Usually pretty well labelled too for clarity

From my experience in the electrical industry (I wont say how long that is as it makes me feel old ) I have seen apprentices that I would rate more highly than qualified some of the qualified electricians out there.

One of the downsides of the boom is that the quality of some electricians dropped massively.

To be fair to the electrician he might have installed a spur for a small domestic type coffee machine and then a far larger 3 phase unit could have arrived long after he has gone.

cast_iron

So we have a 5 core flex coming out of a 13amp spur? Doesn't sound like a 3-phase spur to me. And what sort of MCB is backing it?

2011

So we have a 5 core flex coming out of a 13amp spur?

That is not the way I read it.

To me there is a 5 core flex on a coffee machine

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

From my experience in the electrical industry (I wont say how long that is as it makes me feel old ) I have seen apprentices that I would rate more highly than qualified some of the qualified electricians out there.

One of the downsides of the boom is that the quality of some electricians dropped massively.

To be fair to the electrician he might have installed a spur for a small domestic type coffee machine and then a far larger 3 phase unit could have arrived long after he has gone.

What are ye talkin about, wrong wrong wrong:)

Only jokin of course, spot on there, the boom meant anyone that could put up brackets was a sparks because of the demand for them.

Almost certain to be a 3 phase machine alright. And if a sparks was asked to provide a supply for a coffee machine i think most would assume a spur would do. The 3 phase ones just have 3 elements connected in star in them i think, so the machines are a high KW rating.

Davy

robbie7730 wrote: »

And if a sparks was asked to provide a supply for a coffee machine i think most would assume a spur would do. The 3 phase ones just have 3 elements connected in star in them i think, so are a high KW rating.

Ok you might say in that case fair enough, but it sounds like the machine was their. He left notes of phasing groupings, and for a higher fuse to be used instead, so = clown

Bruthal

Davy wrote: »

Ok you might say in that case fair enough, but it sounds like the machine was their. He left notes of phasing groupings, and for a higher fuse to be used instead, so = clown

Yea lookin back over it your probably right.

2011

Agree.

SparKing

It may be a 3 phase machine but generally the motor is single phase in my experience so the 3 phase aspect of it is limited to the element,
So as long as the element is wired properly and the cable is capable of carrying the current, there's no problem. Change the spur to to an isolator suitably rated. I think it would be possible to reduce the draw from the machine by connecting the element(s) differently at the expense of increasing the heat up time if the cable isn't rated highly enough

Bruthal

SparKing wrote: »

It may be a 3 phase machine but generally the motor is single phase in my experience so the 3 phase aspect of it is limited to the element,
So as long as the element is wired properly and the cable is capable of carrying the current, there's no problem. Change the spur to to an isolator suitably rated. I think it would be possible to reduce the draw from the machine by connecting the element(s) differently at the expense of increasing the heat up time if the cable isn't rated highly enough

Yes they likely can operate on single phase, but it will probalby need a supply like a shower would need, the supply cable would be able for the load on the 3 phase cores by connecting them together, but now the neutral core will be carrying what ever current the 3 phase cores are carrying when connected to just one phase, where as when the machine is connected to 3 phases the neutral current will be low, or zero from 3 elements going.

The spur circuit itself wont be rated to power this machine, and using just one of the 3 elements would seem pointless as it would make more sense to get a single phase machine than the commercial rated 3 phase one they obviously paid a few euro for. It needs a 3 phase circuit put in for it really. Anything is possible though.

ntpm

2011 wrote: »

Look closely at the nameplate. I would suspect that this is a 3 phase coffee machine, which is not unusual for a commercial type! I have seen these as high as 20kW

Brown = L1
Black = L2
Grey = L3
Blue = N
Green/Yellow = E

I Agree......... Sounds like 3 phase.

I would also suggest that the original electrician wasn't given full loading or spec of coffee machine and probably wants extra money to come back and fit/ modify cabling or has issues regarding payment of original works.....and the client if trying to get someone else to fit it.....


Just for refrence:

I have come across commercial appliances that require a large single phase supply.

The manufacturer utilises multiple (Feed ) cables for the appliances that need to connected together into a suitable 1ph connector i.e 2p+E 16 or 32Amp Industrial plugs
The MCB/RCBO is suitably sized to protect the appliance.

What size is the mains cable feeding the fused spur, is it a single radial outlet and what is the rating of the breaker at the fuse board.

Bruthal

ntpm wrote: »

I have come across commercial appliances that require a large single phase supply.

The manufacturer utilises multiple (Feed ) cables for the appliances that need to connected together into a suitable 1ph connector i.e 2p+E 16 or 32Amp Industrial plugs

Well as sparking says, its likely they can be connected to a single phase alright, but its design is probably for 3 phase. Its just the elements in these machines that are connected to the 3 phases.
But if it is in fact a 3 phase machine and its brown black grey for phases, and blue for neutral, then the blue core wont do on its own if the three phase cores are conected into one phase and the blue to neutral.

I know on the commercial steam ovens i used to repair at one time they had 3 sets of elements that could be switched in and out depending on the setting for cooking. But the neutral from the elements star point would never carry more than the load of a single element with the oven connected to 3 phases. But it was a long time ago and the memory banks are failing:)

The MCB/RCBO is suitably sized to protect the appliance.

Some would say the MCB is soley to protect the cable rather than the appliance, but i do think it does give some protection to the appliances alright. But this would be a secondary property. Id say the MCB would be suitably sized to supply the appliance load continously.

What size is the mains cable feeding the fused spur, is it a single radial outlet and what is the rating of the breaker at the fuse board.

Its hard to imagine it being bigger than a 2.5 circuit, but maybe it is.

ntpm

I agree with all your point.


#Going back to the original post by AFLIB he did state that the black and brown where neutral cables hence I assum that the othe cables are single phase live conductors.

He had it running for a while and it didn't trip the breaker... thats why I think the black is a neutral...IMO.



although it could have meant that some section of the coffee machine was not working and no one realised??????....

Bruthal

ntpm wrote: »

I agree with all your point.


#Going back to the original post by AFLIB he did state that the black and brown where neutral cables hence I assum that the othe cables are single phase live conductors.

He had it running for a while and it didn't trip the breaker... thats why I think the black is a neutral...IMO.



although it could have meant that some section of the coffee machine was not working and no one realised??????....

Yea i think it was brown and grey were L and blue and black neutral in first post.

If it was actually a 3 phase machine then 2 elements would have 230v and so would output their full load, and the 3rd would have no volts on it with neutral to both ends. This would still overload the blue core of the flex and so cause the flex to warm up as stated. And the fused spur.

This all assumes it is a 3 phase machine, and also there is a neutral to the centre point of the elements so that the 3 element groups can be switched in and out seperately, because if they all only come on and off together then no neutral would be needed to the star point of them, in which case a single phase would of been connected to the ends of 2 elements and a neutral (black) to the end of the third one so they would of still heated but in series with each other. But that would`t overload the flex then. Again assuming its the manufacturers flex in the machine.

But the whole thread suggests it is a 3 phase machine alright. The operating controls will likely all work on single phase anyway, 3 phase is for the high KW element group. Them commercial level machines cost thousands of euros.

Bruthal

ntpm wrote: »

although it could have meant that some section of the coffee machine was not working and no one realised??????....

Probably yes, likely a reduced heating output. But ye never know what the setup is for sure, all we can all do is suggest. It would be interesting to know the outcome.

Your right that 2 cores could be L and 2 N, although if the brown black grey blue earth was the original manufacturers flex you would have to be considering 3 phase on a commercial coffee machine. Ye just never know for sure what we might see.

M cebee

-3P appliance almost definitely

-they might do a similar SP model with 3-core lead
have to be careful when connecting expensive equipment:)

ecenur

2011 wrote: »

You do know that a spur will not take more than a 13A fuse?? Also this is a very unsafe situation. It should be isolated immediately.

My advice is to get the electrician back to sort this out ASAP or you could be in serious trouble!

For services like these, where you contact an electrician to come in and fix up your problems when they have already came in the first time do they charge the same amount of money? I have never dealt with any other electrician before, my electrician was a close family friend who would come in and handle all of the problems, he is now moving and I am in need of a new electrician.

Bruthal

ecenur wrote: »

For services like these, where you contact an electrician to come in and fix up your problems when they have already came in the first time do they charge the same amount of money? I have never dealt with any other electrician before, my electrician was a close family friend who would come in and handle all of the problems, he is now moving and I am in need of a new electrician.

No they should`t anyway if the problem was down to their initial install etc. Different if the customer wants an extra or modification to what was initially required.

Where do you live.

aflib

sorry for late update.went back on sat morning to the fella.the min i walked in the door he was on the phone to the orginal sparks passing on to me what to do.this sparks should be dragged behind the luas in the nip.he refused to talk directly to me,only to pass on messeges to me.his 1st suggestion was to change the 13A fuse in the spur to a 33A fuse.i said that wasnt posssible.so on these ideas went on for a few min which i refused to do.2 other ideas he had were to twist the black,brown and grey conductor together and use them as L and his other was,yes,this is incredible.connect the L in the board in with the main 63A fuse.thats when i grabbed my bag and out the door.i had to sit in the car and reflect on what had happened.i tought i was getting the piss taken out of me for a hidden camera or something.unbelivable.i know this fellas name and i would to name and shame him but i wont.

Bruthal

I can now see exactly why you said this in your very first post

aflib
why i agreed to doing this

Them suggestions are beyond the realms of reality

ntpm

Good for you....
it's fine for us to spectulate how to wire things here.... but doing it in the real world could be dangerous ...

Bruthal

ntpm wrote: »

Good for you....
it's fine for us to spectulate how to wire things here.... but doing it in the real world could be dangerous ...

Who`s this for:rolleyes:

Bruthal

robbie7730 wrote: »

Davy
Ok you might say in that case fair enough, but it sounds like the machine was their. He left notes of phasing groupings, and for a higher fuse to be used instead, so = clown

Yea lookin back over it your probably right.

Correction, certainly right.

Buford T Justice

Was it explained to the shop owner about this? God forbid he follows the instructions from the plank and sets the place on fire.

maxamillius

all i can do is laugh!how are people like this still workin just does not seem fair to us unemployed!

M cebee

competition is part of the reason anyhow

guys are cutting corners and getting the work

aflib

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Was it explained to the shop owner about this? God forbid he follows the instructions from the plank and sets the place on fire.

i told him not to go near it.i even toook the 13A fuse out just incase and threw it in me bag.but its his own choice now.its his shop.

ntpm

maxamillius wrote: »

all i can do is laugh!how are people like this still workin just does not seem fair to us unemployed!

It seems that if you price the job properly ie. to current regs and good working practice and at a realistic rate ( to pay overheads, insurances, etc and taxes and to come out with a little profit:)) YOU WON'T WIN THE JOB >>>:mad:.

The recession ( or is it now a depression?:rolleyes:) is driving down rates and there are many unemployed tradesmen willing to sign on and then undercut the "legitimatly operating" tradesmen. Can't understand the "Black Ecomony" will reduce the chances of company's to re-employ electricians.

M cebee

i'm a full-time spark -reci registered ,vat +tax

like you say-if you're 'pricing' work to a good standard +regs

you'll be undercut most of the time


not too many vans+signs on the road these day sso i assume a lot of my competition is coming from the black market+dole

c'est la vie

Buford T Justice

aflib wrote: »

i told him not to go near it.i even toook the 13A fuse out just incase and threw it in me bag.but its his own choice now.its his shop.

Thats fair enough. At least if he interferes with it now, he's going against competent advice.

2011

It seems that if you price the job properly ie. to current regs and good working practice and at a realistic rate ( to pay overheads, insurances, etc and taxes and to come out with a little profit) YOU WON'T WIN THE JOB >>>.

Exactly.

This is why an independent body should be certifying all electrical work. Then everyone is forced to be compliant and the cowboys are removed from the equation.

M cebee

yes -i'm sure there'd be a general consensus on independent inspection for all new work etc.

very difficult to enforce for all work-although they're trying hard in the UK anyway

ntpm

M cebee wrote: »

yes -i'm sure there'd be a general consensus on independent inspection for all new work etc.

very difficult to enforce for all work-although they're trying hard in the UK anyway

The way they are trying to POLICE tradesmen is by utilising Building Control ( Local planning depts), regular re-training and spot checks.
Trading standards have fairly strong powers to fine bad contractors.

Atleast they are trying!!!

2011

very difficult to enforce for all work-although they're trying hard in the UK anyway

I never said it would be easy!
They could start by phasing it in with new connections. Next they could apply it to rewires. Eventually they could stop selling certs to contractors. It can be done! The alternative is that this crazy situation goes on and customers and quality contractors loose out.