Minimum Wage - Time For Amendment?

imme

Ireland has the third highest minimum wage in the EU.
Some see this as a block to competitiveness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Is it time that the minimum wage was reviewed and revised downwards if deemed appropriate.

The min wage stands at 8.65Euro per hour, it was introduced in 2000.


I would be open to the min wage being revised downwards to encourage competitiveness, but, I'm not depending on it to provide a decent standard of living.

Possibly new jobs created could have a lower min wage applied.

OhNoYouDidn't

imme wrote: »

Ireland has the third highest minimum wage in the EU.
Some see this as a block to competitiveness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Is it time that the minimum wage was reviewed and revised downwards if deemed appropriate.

The min wage stands at 8.65Euro per hour, it was introduced in 2000.


I would be open to the min wage being revised downwards to encourage competitiveness, but, I'm not depending on it to provide a decent standard of living.

Possibly new jobs created could have a lower min wage applied.

The problem with this mantra is 'increased competitiveness' actually means wider profit margins. Things will not become cheaper for consumers if we cut the min wage. New jobs won't be created. All that will happen is transfer even more wealth up the chain from those who need it most.

As always with these debates, you have ignored the fact that Ireland is the most expensive place to live in the EU, hence the higher wages, including minimum wage.

Chicken and egg, and why is it always the little guy who has to blink first

thenightrider

So are you saying that you will take a pay cut your self and work for less then 8.65.

The people that come up with these ideas are usually in high paying jobs and dont no what it is like trying to support a family and pay a mortgage on min wage other wise they would not be thing up these stupid ideas

dlofnep

And tell me exactly what other states in Europe have a similar corp tax, and high cost of living as Ireland? The minimum wage is fine. I wouldn't work for less than the current minimum wage, and I don't expect anyone else to have to either.

imme

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

As always with these debates, you have ignored the fact that Ireland is the most expensive place to live in the EU, hence the higher wages, including minimum wage.

oh no I didn't OhNoYouDidn't, I introduced a topic for debate thank you very much!:D

Ireland was one of the most expensive places in the EU in which to live, things change.

danbohan

dlofnep wrote: »

And tell me exactly what other states in Europe have a similar corp tax, and high cost of living as Ireland? The minimum wage is fine. I wouldn't work for less than the current minimum wage, and I don't expect anyone else to have to either.

would you not ? , perhaps if unemployment benefit was 75 euro per week and only your rent/ mortgage interest was not paid by the govt you might reconsider , it should be reduced .

dlofnep

danbohan wrote: »

would you not ?

No, I would not. I did not spend years in college to earn less than a tenner an hour.

danbohan wrote: »

, perhaps if unemployment benefit was 75 euro per week and only your rent/ mortgage interest was not paid by the govt you might reconsider , it should be reduced .

That doesn't mean that's it's right to undercut wages. You're looking to squeeze workers as much as possible. I'm looking to see every worker get paid a fair wage for their work. Nobody should earn less than the current minimum wage. If someone feels that they are paid too much, then they can always ask for a pay reduction

OhNoYouDidn't

imme wrote: »

oh no I didn't OhNoYouDidn't, I introduced a topic for debate thank you very much!:D

Ireland was one of the most expensive places in the EU in which to live, things change.

Do they?

I don't especially give a damn what I earn in money terms, I care what that gives me in purchasing power. If prices fell, I would have no conceptual problem with people earning less, myself included. But they have not, banks are putting up mortgage rates while base rates stay low, even in this recession, so any decrease in pay, especially at the bottom will destroy people.

whatawaster

dlofnep wrote: »

And tell me exactly what other states in Europe have a similar corp tax, and high cost of living as Ireland? The minimum wage is fine. I wouldn't work for less than the current minimum wage, and I don't expect anyone else to have to either.

A high minimum wage means less jobs. It's simple supply and demand.

If you're happy with that situation, fine.

I personally would prefer to see more people working for less money than seeing them in the dole queue.
Lower minimum wage WILL make us more competitive, and will eventually see goods and services become cheaper.

OhNoYouDidn't

whatawaster wrote: »

A high minimum wage means less jobs. It's simple supply and demand.

If you're happy with that situation, fine.

I personally would prefer to see more people working for less money than seeing them in the dole queue.
Lower minimum wage WILL make us more competitive, and will eventually see goods and services become cheaper.

Do they sell tickets for your world?

bcmf

no problem bringing min wage down but as stated above bring down the cost of Fuel (Oil, gas, Lecce), vat on food and clothes etc etc
Dont just take money off people and expect it to have only 1 effect.

whatawaster

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Do they sell tickets for your world?

Irish people are going to have less disposable income over the next few years.

Assuming we are talking about an unregulated market, businesses are going to have less business if they do not cut prices and increase consumer’s purchasing power. Lowering their biggest cost (wages – which I would do in three ways – lower minimum wage, lower PRSI for employers, and lower corporation tax) will give them the scope to be able to cut costs, and cut prices, while still maintaining their margins.

whatawaster

bcmf wrote: »

no problem bringing min wage down but as stated above bring down the cost of Fuel (Oil, gas, Lecce), vat on food and clothes etc etc
Dont just take money off people and expect it to have only 1 effect.

Food and clothes are absolutely dirt cheap in this country if someone is willing to shop in the right places. People can and should be able to eat a very healthy, varied diet on very small incomes.

I agree that utility costs are a major problem.

bcmf

whatawaster wrote: »

Food and clothes are absolutely dirt cheap in this country if someone is willing to shop in the right places. People can and should be able to eat a very healthy, varied diet on very small incomes.

I agree that utility costs are a major problem.

Clothes: Yes I know they can.
Food: I know they should.
But my point is that there are more underlying problems then min wage.
By all means cut min wage BUT FIRST lets cut the cost of living before we take money out of peoples pockets.

danbohan

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Do they sell tickets for your world?

your world in case you had not noticed is crumbling around you , the sense of entitlement of irish people in the most bankrupt country in Europe is still amazing , time to get real

KrazeeEyezKilla

Cutting the minimum wage would mean less money in these peoples pockets leading to reduced spending which will cost small businesses more than whatever small amounts that they would save for paying less wages. There would be less Income Tax being payed too. Any debate about competitiveness has nothing to do with the lowest paid workers.

dlofnep

whatawaster wrote: »

A high minimum wage means less jobs. It's simple supply and demand.

It's a trade off between corp tax, or low wages. Companies can't have both. If they do, they are not contributing, but leeching.

davyjose

I wouldn't even consider lowering the minimum wage until social welfare is substantially lowered. Already some people are better of on the dole and other allowances. This country is arseways enough.

I earn substantially more than minimum wage BTW, and I'm not for taking away from those who've fallen on hard times either (SW is necessary), so i say this objectively.

thebman

dlofnep wrote: »

It's a trade off between corp tax, or low wages. Companies can't have both. If they do, they are not contributing, but leeching.

How many multi-nationals are paying the current minimum wage?

Reducing it would benefit many Irish businesses and most likely reduce unemployment.

Cost of services will naturally decline once the shops find less people are purchasing their services at their current marked up rate.

Standard no cuts reply to this that you can't trust Irish retailers to reduce their prices, I mean look at the pubs etc... ... ...

yet prices have decreased for many services since this crisis started. The only services I've seen not decrease in price or going up are state owned...

Amhran Nua

dlofnep wrote: »

It's a trade off between corp tax, or low wages. Companies can't have both. If they do, they are not contributing, but leeching.

We cannot and should not try to compete on wages, we'll never match developing country wages and we don't want Eastern European wages. We can and should compete on the corporation tax. Higher median wages mean more consumer goods and services are purchased and there is more money floating around in the economy; neither high profits nor high taxes particularly help an economy. Its a balancing act, but generally speaking what you want is to increase the middle class as much as possible, and a decent minimum wage is an important part of that. Poor people haven't the money to spend, and rich people didn't get that way by spending lots of money.

if you want an example of no minimum wage/high profit countries, there are many third world nations to choose from.

The cost of goods is another issue, we need to look hard at commercial rental agreements, empty rate payments, and potentially cartel investigations into the major staple suppliers in the country (Dunnes, Tesco, Aldo, Aldi, Lidl).

the groutch

reducing minimum wage will only keep more people on the dole, it'll just narrow the gap between what people earn on the dole and when they'd earn on minimum wage, and provide less incentive to look for work

dvpower

KrazeeEyezKilla wrote: »

Cutting the minimum wage would mean less money in these peoples pockets leading to reduced spending which will cost small businesses more than whatever small amounts that they would save for paying less wages. There would be less Income Tax being payed too. Any debate about competitiveness has nothing to do with the lowest paid workers.

So if we, say, double the minimum wage, we would get more spending and more income tax. Genius.

the groutch wrote: »

reducing minimum wage will only keep more people on the dole, it'll just narrow the gap between what people earn on the dole and when they'd earn on minimum wage, and provide less incentive to look for work

So companies who couldn't attract staff at the new lower rate, would simply not hire rather than setting a wage rate above the minimum? Interesting.

bad2dabone

The dole payments would need to be reduced first. If the min wage was, lets say cut to 7euro per hour, people are still getting 196pw on dole, while they would only get 280pw for working a 40 hr week.

Shea O'Meara

Unions, love them or hate them are needed because of ideas like this.
Lowering minimum wage will possibly mean more jobs in that employers can afford more staff with no increase in salary expediture.
For the minimum wage worker it would mean less quality of life and I don't mean a smaller car and less beach trips.
Fas: companies used the CE scheme to hire two people part time and had that salary funded by the tax payer, instead of bypassing Fas and hiring one guy full time. It's a fact. I've seen it happen.
So lowering minimum wage may increase employment figures, but people will be on the poverty line and no extra money will be generated in the economy other than the business owner being able to squirrel away more profits gained from the extra staff.
More and more we are encouraged to work over time, on weekends for no extra pay to help the economy, which is right wing bull**** in my view. It's to cod the average working into increasing profits under the illusion of the mythical trickle down effect.
The minimum wage is set at the lowest common denominator were a person can work and pay his or her bills. It's the bargain basement salary of society based on the cost of living.
It turns my stomach when I read about such ideas as lowering minimum wage. How about we get all the TD's to work the current minimum wage for a start?
The minimum wage wasn't brought in to increase the coffers of the average worker, it is designed to stop employers offering work based on how low can I go, 2, 3 euro an hour?
The rate is based on the cost of living.

Spudmonkey

dlofnep wrote: »

No, I would not. I did not spend years in college to earn less than a tenner an hour.

So you think that after years in college you would be working in a minimum wage job?

To tell you the truth, it's all relative. If the cost of living comes down, there is no reason for the minimum wage to be left behind.

Spudmonkey

bcmf wrote: »

By all means cut min wage BUT FIRST lets cut the cost of living before we take money out of peoples pockets.

You can't magically cut the cost of living. That follows wages, not the other way around.

donkey balls

There was a guy on the last word yesterday(think he is the elected FG lord mayor for Dublin),He owns a business and sugested that people should work an extra 6hrs for free to help companies.:rolleyes:
What will happen if the min wage was lowered to just say six euro employers would then seek to lower other peoples wages,I know of so called MNC/bluechip companies that are paying so called professional drivers the min wage yet their profits are huge, And guess what the work they do for a well known retail chain does not pass on the price of goods to the customer.
And this thing of comparing us to the likes of the UK is bulls**T the cost of goods&services there is a lot cheaper including motor tax,I worked for a well known MNC who have offices in over 200 countries when i compared my salary with somone living in either India/austrailia i was on more $$$$ for doing the same job.
The reason i was paid more than my counter parts is the cost of living then again if your a TD/Minister sure what would you care with un vouched expenses.

goose2005

Did people actually look at that Wikipedia page? It showed that Netherlands, Lux., Australia and UK all had higher minimum wages. Belgium, France, Canada and NZ were also close. It's shocking that when our alleged genius entrepreneurs are brought on discussion shows, the best idea they can come up with is "kick the poor." If you reduce a €100k salary to 70k, one would hardly notice. 20k to 17k brings real suffering.

ICE HOUSE

Cut the minimum wage eh??
Sure why not bring back the shackles and all.

dan_d

Cost of living will drop if min wage drops.Chicken and egg, as someone pointed out.
Utilities are expensive - why? Because part of their overheads are paying wages. Lower the minimum wage, it reduces the wage bill, prices drop. Even lower it by a euro.
Good to see though, that the celtic tiger attitude is still alive and well in this country.It doesn't seem to have occured to anyone here that if you are not happy with a minimum wage job then the onus should be on you to go out, upskill and try and get some thing better, rather than sitting there whinging about how you should be paid more and the minimum wage should keep rising, just because.Particularly since there are now a massive selection of courses available at all times of the week and the year, in hundreds of subjects and they don't cost the earth.
All other wages have to go down, many cuts have to be brought in, why do people seem to think the minimum wage should be set in stone. It's relative to everything else, and yes, it should drop.(and before I'm accused of being in a high earning job - I'm unemployed. And I also think the dole needs to be cut)

Lockstep

In 2009, the minimum wage only accounted for 5% of the employed so cutting it certainly wouldn't do anything automatically, especially lead to price drops.

While it might lead to price drops, it could easily lead to greater profit margins without any real benefits going to consumers. A 20% drop in the minimum wage is extremely unlikely to lead to any sort of correlative drop in the costs of minimum wage services.

See here

THE DEBATE on the minimum wage is a classic example of political economy.

The economy is at a point where the burden of a fragmented and dysfunctional fiscal regime is beginning to cannibalise its capacity to maintain jobs. This has been aggravated by the disconnection between, on the one hand, the funding that has been put in by society to rescue “covered institutions” and, on the other, how far the interests of society take second place to restoring shareholder value of these same institutions.

When the summer is over and children head back to school and unemployment climbs towards 450,000, the real pain and pressure will be felt. It may well prove impossible to frame a budget. If present policies continue, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) may intervene.

Those on the minimum wage are at the sharp end of this recession.

The domestic economy continues to contract – by up to an estimated 10 per cent in 2009. A series of reactive budget policies are draining whatever demand, and confidence, remains in the economy. And coming down the line are proposals for a property tax and carbon-related taxes.

What is euphemistically called the burden of adjustment – aka the pain and grief of adapting to these conditions – is falling squarely on the labour market.

This is the context of a seemingly appalling dilemma: should the Minimum Wage Act, 2000, be set aside? Irish Congress of Trade Unions general secretary David Begg says there is a point below which wages should not be allowed to fall. He has described the proposal as toxic. That is fair enough.

At the same time, as matters now stand, simply to hold on to a job people are working fewer hours, shorter weeks and, as the Central Bank points out in its recent 2008 annual report: “many firms in the private sector have negotiated reduction in the wage rates”.

The Central Bank goes on to argue: “The decline in wage rates, while undoubtedly painful for those concerned . . . will mitigate the decline in unemployment in the short-term and contribute to an improvement in competitiveness.”

It would be hard to find a better statement of the current orthodoxy. But it is difficult to sustain the argument that the removal of the minimum wage can make any kind of a decisive contribution to national competitiveness. The 85,000 workers on the minimum wage account for about 5 per cent of those employed. They are not, for the most part, working in high value-added activities central to a turn-around in the economy.

So, at the level of the individual, the family, and the firm, the issue of the minimum wage matters. But at the macro level – ie turning the economy around – it is distracting attention from what really needs to be done.

There are two issues underlying the debate on labour market flexibility, competitiveness and, in this context, the minimum wage.

The first is whether or not it is right to stop people who are prepared to take less than the minimum wage of €8.65 per hour. There is an argument that individuals should have the freedom to work at whatever rate they choose. This is reinforced by, first, the fact that all work has an intrinsic value: the dignity of having a job.

Conversely, there is the devastating decline in self-esteem of those who lose their job, for reasons beyond their control.

The significant increase in the number of people presenting at GPs with psycho-social stress would seem to confirm this and to reinforce the argument that individuals should have the freedom to work at whatever rate they choose.

There is the danger that unscrupulous employers will exploit the recession and an individual’s desperation for work.

The issue of incentives is central to the argument. Too high a rate will deter some employers from holding on to workers, or employing new ones, when they themselves are under pressure. Too low a rate will encourage workers into the social security system, which is under serious strain.

The minimum wage is already set at a low level: the Central Statistics Office Survey of Employment (2007) cites average hourly earnings of €18.07 in the private sector. Someone has to speak up for individuals and especially families trying to survive on such pay. The budget cut the income of one-income families with two children by 6 per cent.

The problem is reconciling an individual’s right to work with the prevention of exploitation. At the heart of this problem is the lack of trust in Ireland: we are no longer a high-trust society.

The second issue is whether removing the minimum wage would mitigate the decline in unemployment and contribute to an improvement in competitiveness.

For those on the minimum wage, it is difficult to sustain the argument that a reduction would improve national competitiveness. It would affect incentives: their already low living standard.

It is, however, almost certainly the case that for individual firms suffocated by fiscal burdens and red tape, any reduction in their costs would allow them to retain jobs.

The division between those who argue that the removal of a minimum wage would be morally reprehensible and those who believe that individuals should be free to seek work at less than the minimum wage is a false dichotomy. This is where the political economy comes in.

The Government’s “rule nothing out” approach distracts attention from the only sustainable way forward – one in which the issue of reducing the minimum wage as a potentially important factor in national competitiveness fades into insignificance.

The only way out of the growth and competitiveness cul de sac into which the economy has been driven is a strategy for growing the economy.

The Government doesn’t have one.

It is losing whatever leverage it had over covered institutions having to put national recovery ahead of self-interest.

Its core fiscal projections are the stuff of fantasy. Its commitment to the EU that the Government deficit will be reduced to 3 per cent of GDP is not tenable.

The scope for implementing the “smart economy” is stymied by a lack of scientific and technological competence within Government and – largely – within the banks.

All of these are more important in terms of competitiveness and flexibility than reducing the minimum wage. Indeed, the whole rationale for developing Ireland’s knowledge-based smart economy is at variance with seeking national competitive advantage from amending minimum wages.

The Government needs a tenable strategy for growing the domestic economy while reducing the size of the State. By listening to calls for a Lenten fast for an already emaciated economy in the interests of “fiscal sustainability”, we have lost time, credibility and revenue and jobs.

We have got things the wrong way round. Restoring the public finances will require maintaining employment, giving priority to entrepreneurship and maintaining domestic demand. The most striking feature of the IMF’s summary data on Ireland is the precipitous decline in the real economy compared with the Government sector.

The remit of the McCarthy review group should have been extended to cutting back rent-seeking State interventionism that stultifies risk-taking and the rebuilding of competitiveness. It could still be done.

A combination of the rigour of Colm McCarthy, the ruthlessness of Michael O’Leary and the vision of Graham O’Donnell (the entrepreneur behind the Spirit of Ireland initiative – which really does have the capacity to transform Ireland’s competitiveness) should take about three weeks.

This will mean more borrowing.

The most telling indication of just how far we have to go was the inclusion of an Enterprise Stabilisation Fund of €100 million, over two years and knee-deep in caveats, in the last budget – at a time when the Government was diverting €7 billion to banks.

This takes us back to the political economy of the minimum wage. Too much politics, too much kite-flying, too little real economics. If things don’t change – and soon – it will be time for the boys at the IMF in Washington DC to begin making travel arrangement before a once-proud, now broken-backed economy triggers a contagion across the EU.

Ray Kinsella is author of the forthcoming Rebuilding Trust in Banking: Regulation, Corporate Governance and Ethics (Vonier Press, www.vonierpress.com)

Amhran Nua

dan_d wrote: »

Lower the minimum wage, it reduces the wage bill, prices drop.

Most people are only buying what they absolutely have to these days, if the wage bill is cut, I'd fully expect retailers to collect the difference and not reduce prices, or reduce them minimally. Since people are buying what they have to, they'll continue to buy it even if it strains them a bit more. Either that or they'll fall into real poverty.

Cost of living is a serious issue here in Ireland, but as already mentioned, we need to first look at crazy high rents being charged, comparable to much larger countries and cities, the fact that we have a half a handful of companies supplying 90% of what the general population buys, and hence plenty of scope for profiteering and collusion (all that would take is a shopping basket analysis at a low level by these chains), and why exactly things across the border are so much cheaper above and beyond exchange rates, something that was highlighted in previous years when the pound fell to parity with the euro.

We also need to consider setting up Irish companies to create import substitution and reduce numbers on the dole, we import too much.

donkey balls

I know of two logistic companies that have operations here in Ireland one pays the staff the industry standard the other treats their staff like sh*t and pays professional people the min wage.
And yes both companies make good profits here in Ireland.

Spudmonkey

kickoutthejams wrote: »

In 2009, the minimum wage only accounted for 5% of the employed so cutting it certainly wouldn't do anything automatically, especially lead to price drops.

Is it not the fact that the minimum wage sets the lower limit? I.e someone just starting gets minimum wage, someone already working gets X euro more.

Its not the absolute number of people that are on the minimum wage thats the problem. Its the fact that those just over the current minimum wage demand that X amount extra which ultimately limits wages overall from decreasing.

Lockstep

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Is it not the fact that the minimum wage sets the lower limit? I.e someone just starting gets minimum wage, someone already working gets X euro more.

Its not the absolute number of people that are on the minimum wage thats the problem. Its the fact that those just over the current minimum wage demand that X amount extra which ultimately limits wages overall from decreasing.

Cutting the minimum wage doesn't resolve this. Your logic seems to be"If we cut the MW then general wages will fall in line with this". And there certainly isn't an automatic correlation.

Spudmonkey

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Cutting the minimum wage doesn't resolve this. Your logic seems to be"If we cut the MW then general wages will fall in line with this". And there certainly isn't an automatic correlation.

Do you disagree that the minimum wage sets a lower limit?

Lockstep

It sets a lowest limit, but I'd say that wages above the minimum are (to varying degrees) more skilled than those at the bottom. As such, they have a lot more variables than just what the lowest rate is being paid.

Spudmonkey

But it ultimately prevents wages as a whole from decreasing.

Lockstep

As Amhran Nua has pointed out, there's a myriad of factors preventing wages from dropping. Rent rates are a key problem, as well as price gouging. The rip-off republic days aren't far gone.

The minimum wage affects a very small proportion of the population (especially as the €8.65 only applies to experienced persons and those over the age of 18)

Amhran Nua

Spudmonkey wrote: »

But it ultimately prevents wages as a whole from decreasing.

Only from decreasing below the minimum, which they shouldn't anyway. I don't think there is much in the way of government data readily available to check this, but I'd be interested to see the movement of the median (not average) wage over the last ten years and its correlation to the rises to the minimum.

People on the minimum wage are among the most vulnerable in society, and I don't think anyone should be beating a drum to increase the profits of employers at their expense, and that's all you'd be doing. Anyone on a higher wage has their pay decided by market forces, so that's probably around where they'd be anyway. If people are worried about international competitiveness, our economy is so open we already have to compete on that level for many businesses, so anyone working on that level won't be on the minimum.

Besides, lets check the numbers, lets say €8 an hour cut to €7 an hour for 20 employees rounded for convenience, all doing 40 hours a week. The employer gains a miserable €800 a week, pretty small beans for any business employing 20 people, for example a cheap hotel would get that from having 2 rooms filled a night. Meanwhile the employee has lost 12% of their already meagre earnings, and at that level, every euro counts.

Dempo1

These calls, particularly from self interest groups seeking a reduction in the minimum wage is absurd. The Economy has not been destroyed by employees being paid a fair wage, indeed i would suggest the minimum wage was encouraged in the first place to bring people to an acceptable cost of living.

I was mad has hell this week to see the Restaurant Association of Ireland chief executive release the greatest crock of ****e which amongst many things blamed this "Fictional Sunday premium" and minimum wage for the crisis the hotel/restaurant sector is facing.

• He mentions restaurants are reducing prices, "God bless them", one wonders were they too high in the first place.
• He fails to mention the Hotel/catering sector are the worst offenders when it come to breaches in labor laws.
• He fails to mention a tiny if any percentage of restaurants or hotels actually pay Sunday premium
• He fails to mention 90% of hotels have laid off staff or reduced their staffs pay and hours in 2009/10.
• Theres not a mention of suppliers, crucified because of non payment for supplies and services.
• Not a mention of the ridiculous amount of hotels and restaurants that sprung up in the good times staffed primarily by work permit schemes and reduced rates.
• And of course no mention about greedy developers given tax breaks to build hotels they had not got a clue how to manage, now left to be managed on a shoe string on behalf of Banks/Nama whilst in the process destroying established hotels that actually had standards. Of course all this is the fault of staff on the wonderful current Minimum wage, those of course that get paid on time.

I am not entirely sure how anyone can surmise that a reduction in the minimum wage is going to make a squat of difference to Ireland's economy. The technology, IT, Finance and god forbid Banking sectors pay way above minimum wage. Is it being suggested the retail, service, security, Hospitality sectors are going to rescue our economy because to my mind these are the main industries effected by the current minimum wage.

Jesus wept:mad:

mikemac

I remember Charlie McCreevy cut the VAT rate

And it was decided that businesses were pocketing the difference, there was no noticable drop in prices.
So the VAT rate was put back up

The same will happen here is minimum wage is cut

fatalll

Yes Minimum wage should be cut by about 50cent
also Dole should be reduced for people who are on it longer than 3 years

Also people on dole should have to show up to do something for the state for maybe 2 or 3 days a week. Then they could not work on the black market and claim dole, which is going on. Then maybe we could give slightly more to people who need it.

The Government or the People should then insist on lower prices by going with the cheapest option like the French do. ie. vote with our feet.

It can be done if we all stick together. I know it sounds hyprocratical with my view on min wage and dole but it would work out better for everyone.

Im so mad at this government, the bankers, the speculators and the law for not bringing the people who have perpetrated this white collar crime and have not been brought to justice.
I hope everyone remembers What Bertie has done for this country.....
yes F***ed it up. He will never be forgiven by me anyway.

belmo

Yes it should be cut.

LOL .. the comments on taking bigger profits are quite amusing. Of course business owners might do this ... thats business. The employee will be lucky to have a job ...

The goverment have over regulated businesses to the point of massive closures around the country. The private business sector needs to adjust wages to what it sees fit, not the unions or the goverment.

However, it should probably be limited to new entrants.

Lab_Mouse

belmo wrote: »

Of course business owners might do this ... thats business.

No its not.thats exploitation.

Its that that type of greed that has this country in trouble

belmo

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

No its not.thats exploitation.

Its that that type of greed that has this country in trouble

Nope its called the free market, unfortunately we have an extensive controlled market costing jobs.

Bucklesman

belmo wrote: »

Nope its called the free market, unfortunately we have an extensive controlled market costing jobs.

What are you on about?

Ireland is one of the freest economies going. We're fifth on the Index of Economic Freedom, ahead of the United States, Germany, Britain and every other EU country.

If anything, it's the free market that has cost jobs by allowing reckless borrowing and unregulated development.

belmo

The same website says we have 6% unemployment.

Anyway .. it still needs to come down ... we are still too expensive in this country.

oncevotedff

imme wrote: »

I would be open to the min wage being revised downwards to encourage competitiveness.

We could also encourage competitiveness by doing things like reducing VAT, the cost of energy and fuel and employers PRSI. These things contribute to the high cost of doing business here. This cost is passed on to the consumer, contributing to the high cost of living and the necessity for higher pay.

imme wrote: »

, but, I'm not depending on it to provide a decent standard of living.

So what's the point in working then?

Lemming

oncevotedff wrote: »

We could also encourage competitiveness by doing things like reducing VAT, the cost of energy and fuel and employers PRSI.

So .... tell me .... where does all this energy and fuel come from? Overseas perhaps? That means expenditure. What you suggest means "can't someone else take the hit?". If the minimum wage gets reduced, wages and costs across the board will be affected to some degree or other. Maybe not initially, but they will.

So what's the point in working then?

I dunno, maybe so you don't end up in the gutter, starving?

Kinetic^

Welfare needs to be dropped to about 130/140 and then minimum wage should be dropped to about €7/hour. Long term unemployed (2yr+) should be re-skilled via FAS (or something similar) and if they refuse then their welfare needs to be reduced.