Raising children with different religions in one family

ZAMMY

As already mentioned in another thread this morning, my fiancé is Church of Ireland and I'm Roman Catholic.

We plan to marry next year and will probably start a family in two or three years.

We have discussed in great detail the religion our children will be raised with but haven't yet made the final decision on it.

We are both only-children, neither of us have siblings, so we will be the only people in both of our families to continue the family name, etc.

I have no issue with the Church of Ireland and am fairly happy to raise my children with that religion but in a way, it saddens me that as I am an only child, I would be the last Catholic in my family.

My fiancé feels the same way about the Church of Ireland. If he doesn't continue the religion in his family, it will be lost forever (assuming the potential children don't decide to convert in years to come, etc).


A good compromise seems to be to do as was done in my fiance's family several times over 100 years ago; any females born would be raised as the same religion as their mother, i.e. girls would be Catholics as this was the religion of their mother, and any males would be raised as Church of Ireland as this is the Church their father belonged to. This was a very common practice from what I can see in the 1800s and early 1900s but I'm curious to know if anyone does this today?

It sounds like the perfect compromise, and neither of us have any problem with our children attending both Churches, whichever religion they may be. There wouldn't be any divide between the children.

But is it a messy solution? Has anyone done it in modern day Ireland? Or is it a matter of sticking to one religion?

This is all purely hypothetical of course, we won't be having children for several years yet and we're both easygoing people so will come to a conclusion without any problems. But I'd like to hear if anyone has had two different religions in place amongst their children. Or what do people feel about this?

Stercus Accidit

Why not just raise the children and let them decide when they are 18 if they want to be members of an organised religion, rather than indoctrinating them from infancy, as I assume you both were yourselves?

You now have a problem in your adult life because you and your partner were indoctrinated into different organised religions with no choice in the matter as children, maybe you should question that and why you should do the same to your own children?

ZAMMY

That's a good point, but as regards my partner and I, we'd both have chosen our respective religions if we'd been given the choice at 18.

We have discussed briefly that idea (raising them without either, allowing them to make their own choice) but we both feel strongly that a child raised with a religion can give it up when they're old enough to make their own choice a lot easier than a child raised without religion can pick it up at 18, if that makes sense.

So we will definitely raise our children with religion, that's important to us both, we're just not sure which one yet.

Zombrex

I second Stercus Accidit

Neither of you seem to think it is vitally important for your child's salvation that they have to become either a Catholic or a CoI.

So why "raise them" as either?

You both practice these religions, expose your children to both of them through your personal faith (it is after all your religion, not theirs they haven't been born yet), explain both of them to your children, expose your children to other religions as well, and when you children are old enough let them decide which one they wish to follow, rather than raising them in one from an early age and effectively making their decision for them.

In interests of full discloser I'm not Christian, but I was raised in a family with Catholic on one side and CoI on the other, and I am quite pleased that neither of my parents made the decision for me as to what religion I should be. Catholicism was my dads religion, and CoI was my mums family (she herself was not particularly religious), and I never felt these were being pushed on me or that it had been decided for me that I was one of them, though I was exposed to them regularly and was always quite interested in both.

I think that is a far better way to raise your children that making their mind up for them.

Jester Minute

As a Catholic, there is an obligation to ensure that your children are raised in the faith. This article may provide useful information to you:
http://www.catholicparents.org/educating.html

Zombrex

Jester Minute wrote: »

As a Catholic, there is an obligation to ensure that your children are raised in the faith. This article may provide useful information to you:
http://www.catholicparents.org/educating.html

There is a difference between education and indoctrination. Raising your children in the faith does not have to mean going out of your way to ensure that they too will likely end up Catholics.

ordinarywoman

My parents were of mixed religion and i was bought up 'officially' as a roman catholic but we would go to church one week and mass the next, when i had my communion and confirmation it was in the roman catholic church...and then we would be blessed in the Church of Ireland.

My Mother later became more involved with the Church of Ireland and we found ourselves going there more and more often.

When I got married i was marrying a Roman Catholic...but i decided to offically change my religion to Church of Ireland and had a beautiful ceramony in Kilkenny, and we were married in the Church of Ireland...
My 3 kids have been christened in the Church of Ireland...but it was into Christianity...not into the church of ireland. That way my children can make their own decisions...

I think giving children education and experience in both churches in invaluable and that when they are old enough that their decision is an informed one.

senordingdong

Sensible thing is to leave religion out of their lives and allow them to decide as they see fit.

ZAMMY

ordinarywoman wrote: »

My parents were of mixed religion and i was bought up 'officially' as a roman catholic but we would go to church one week and mass the next, when i had my communion and confirmation it was in the roman catholic church...and then we would be blessed in the Church of Ireland.

My Mother later became more involved with the Church of Ireland and we found ourselves going there more and more often.

When I got married i was marrying a Roman Catholic...but i decided to offically change my religion to Church of Ireland and had a beautiful ceramony in Kilkenny, and we were married in the Church of Ireland...
My 3 kids have been christened in the Church of Ireland...but it was into Christianity...not into the church of ireland. That way my children can make their own decisions...

I think giving children education and experience in both churches in invaluable and that when they are old enough that their decision is an informed one.

That's a very helpful response, thank you.

I like the idea of having the children christened in Christianity, I didn't know this was possible.

I absolutely don't want to raise my future children without them being baptised, I've just not been sure where to baptise them.

What was involved in you officially changing your religion to Church of Ireland?

kumate_champ07

ZAMMY wrote: »

That's a good point, but as regards my partner and I, we'd both have chosen our respective religions if we'd been given the choice at 18.

We have discussed briefly that idea (raising them without either, allowing them to make their own choice) but we both feel strongly that a child raised with a religion can give it up when they're old enough to make their own choice a lot easier than a child raised without religion can pick it up at 18, if that makes sense.

So we will definitely raise our children with religion, that's important to us both, we're just not sure which one yet.

what if you were born and raised in Algeria, would you have choosen Islam instead?

ordinarywoman

I spoke to my reverend, i'd known him for years, when my mother was ill in hospital, he was so helpful to the family, he came in every second day for ten weeks to see her, we spent hours chatting in the waiting room outside intensive care...he organised the whole thing...i signed a piece of paper,
and the ceramony was just myself and my bridesmaid, very relaxed and peaceful.

ZAMMY

I'm not looking to get into a debate on religion/lack of religion/atheism or anything like that, I'm just curious to know if anyone has successfully raised children with both religions (Roman Catholic and Church of Ireland) somehow existing side-by-side, whether the child be 'officially' catholic and brought along to Church of Ireland services also or whatever it may be, but I'm really not looking to discuss Islam or whether it's fair to force children to be anything. I'm sure that can be discussed in a different thread.

Sorry if I was unclear in my original post, but hopefully that makes things a little more understandable.

Zombrex

ZAMMY wrote: »

That's a good point, but as regards my partner and I, we'd both have chosen our respective religions if we'd been given the choice at 18.

Out of interest where they both the religions you had been raised in?

ZAMMY wrote: »

We have discussed briefly that idea (raising them without either, allowing them to make their own choice) but we both feel strongly that a child raised with a religion can give it up when they're old enough to make their own choice a lot easier than a child raised without religion can pick it up at 18, if that makes sense.

Both science and statistics strong suggest the opposite is true.

I think you yourself recognize this by the implication that if your children are raised CoI they won't be Catholic, and the Catholic tradition in your family will be lost (same on your wife's side as well).

You know yourself if you raise your children CoI they more than likely won't choose Catholicism for themselves when they are older.

The free choice is a lot less free than people like to pretend.

ZAMMY

ordinarywoman wrote: »

I spoke to my reverend, i'd known him for years, when my mother was ill in hospital, he was so helpful to the family, he came in every second day for ten weeks to see her, we spent hours chatting in the waiting room outside intensive care...he organised the whole thing...i signed a piece of paper,
and the ceramony was just myself and my bridesmaid, very relaxed and peaceful.

Sounds like you have a fantastic reverend! Thanks for the info.

Out of curiosity, will your own children celebrate Communion/Confirmation having been baptised as 'Christians' in the CoI or is this up to themselves in later life?

Zombrex

ZAMMY wrote: »

I'm not looking to get into a debate on religion/lack of religion/atheism or anything like that, I'm just curious to know if anyone has successfully raised children with both religions (Roman Catholic and Church of Ireland) somehow existing side-by-side,

Fair enough.

Perhaps if you define what exactly you consider "successful". Do you mean ending up with the children in the same religion they were raised in?

ordinarywoman

i was very welcomed into both churches as a child...but found the CoI more family orientated....the reverend knew my name ....and back in the late 70/early 80's the Roman catholic church was huge....an awful lot of people for a young child to deal with,

Stercus Accidit

ZAMMY wrote: »

That's a good point, but as regards my partner and I, we'd both have chosen our respective religions if we'd been given the choice at 18.

We have discussed briefly that idea (raising them without either, allowing them to make their own choice) but we both feel strongly that a child raised with a religion can give it up when they're old enough to make their own choice a lot easier than a child raised without religion can pick it up at 18, if that makes sense.

So we will definitely raise our children with religion, that's important to us both, we're just not sure which one yet.

On that point I was raised without a religion, but attended a catholic school, I was even given a bible at one stage, I still have it, I believe the thin pages served as rolling paper at one stage :eek:

I did however read the whole thing (I would guess few of my classmates who were raised catholic did the same), and even thought about the religion, considered the possibility it was real and gave it every fair chance. I also had the peer pressure to contend with, surrounded by believers whos beliefs were always based on 'my parents said' or by putting the burden of proof on me, 'who made you?', being made by a maker was unquestionably hardwired into their brains of course.

I was told santa was real as a child, I stopped believing in that sooner than my peers, 'where do your presents come from?' was the question for this instance. It wasn't hard to draw a parrallel with that and religion for me, despite it being far more vehemontly preached at school and by my friends.


Thats my experience of being raised with my own choice in the matter, yes, I have rejected religion, but I also had many years of exposure to it and did toy with the idea of taking it up because of that. I hope that gives you some context for your own decision for your children. I have a lot of respect for the way I was raised in that regard, and my decision has been my own.

ordinarywoman

i will allow my children to take communion in both churches...as i did following my confirmation, if they want to its up to them.
my reasons for changing was simply because i felt the CoI truly cares for its parisioners, i didn't see that with the Roman Catholic church.
Two of My children attend a CoI school and one attends Roman Catholic school,for his educational needs differ to the others..

locomo

I think it was very unfair years ago where the Catholic church had so much power it put pressure on the the Protestant person , and the children were expected by the all powerful Catholic church to raise the children as Catholics. This led to a decline in the protestant population in this country for much of the early / mid 20th century. Thankfully things are different now.

Seaneh

Wicknight wrote: »

There is a difference between education and indoctrination. Raising your children in the faith does not have to mean going out of your way to ensure that they too will likely end up Catholics.

dont be daft man. Of chouse christians will and should go out of their way to try and ensure that their children become committed christians. if we really believe what we believe we'd be extremely bad parents if we didn't. I will do everything in my power to ensure my kids grow up and stay christians and know what a relationship with their creator is and means. It would be neglegent not to.

LordSutch

Great question, and a real conundrum for the parents, so, as a father with some knowledge on this subject I will give you my thoughts.

At the last census in Ireland, 98% of people proclaimed to be Catholic & ticked the [RC box], so no need to worry about that branch of the Christian Church dying out then, on the other hand if you marry in the COI and have the children Baptised there (as Christians) then you can buy time over the years as to where they fit in, instead of in the RC Church wherby they are Christined as 'Roman Catholic' at Birth! (Maybe this has changed in recent years)??? but given the choice I would take the (Baptised as Christians) route, COI children also don't get Confirmed until thay are forteen of fifteen years of age (old enough to know whats happening) instead of making their first Communion in the RC Church at the age of seven, too young to know what the vows mean?

Lastly, I would suggest that you don't take the route (if its a Boy he is one Religion), and if its a Girl she takes a different route > that would be a disaster in my opinion. COI also has the added advantage of Sunday School + Creche, Girls Brigade, Boys Brigade, Scouts, Harvest Festivals, Summer Fetes, Summer Camps, & lots more too, but because the Church of Ireland community is soo small nowadays, the quality of teaching & pastoral care is second to none.

Sorry if I'm slightly biased one way, its a very important issue I know, and I also know exactly where you are coming from, so good luck & take your time in making the right decision for your families well being, and your families future . . . .

ordinarywoman

LordSutch wrote: »

Great question, and a real conundrum for the parents, so, as a father with some knowledge on this subject I will give you my thoughts.

At the last census in Ireland, 98% of people proclaimed to be Catholic & ticked the [RC box], so no need to worry about that branch of the Christian Church dying out then, on the other hand if you marry in the COI and have the children Baptised there (as Christians) then you can buy time over the years as to where they fit in, instead of in the RC Church wherby they are Christined as 'Roman Catholic' at Birth! (Maybe this has changed in recent years)??? but given the choice I would take the (Baptised as Christians) route, COI children also don't get Confirmed until thay are forteen of fifteen years of age (old enough to know whats happening) instead of making their first Communion in the RC Church at the age of seven, too young to know what the vows mean?

Lastly, I would suggest that you don't take the route (if its a Boy he is one Religion), and if its a Girl she takes a different route > that would be a disaster in my opinion. COI also has the added advantage of Sunday School + Creche, Girls Brigade, Boys Brigade, Scouts, Harvest Festivals, Summer Fetes, Summer Camps, & lots more too, but because the Church of Ireland community is soo small nowadays, the quality of teaching & pastoral care is second to none.

Sorry if I'm slightly biased one way, its a very important issue I know, and I also know exactly where you are coming from, so good luck & take your time in making the right decision for your families well being, and your families future . . . .

Beautifully put.

locomo

ordinarywoman wrote: »

Beautifully put.

Yes, beautifully put. As a catholic I would tend to agree, and were I in a mixed marriage I would tend towards the church of Ireland for the children too, for various reasons.

JimiTime

ZAMMY wrote: »

As already mentioned in another thread this morning, my fiancé is Church of Ireland and I'm Roman Catholic.

We plan to marry next year and will probably start a family in two or three years.

We have discussed in great detail the religion our children will be raised with but haven't yet made the final decision on it.

We are both only-children, neither of us have siblings, so we will be the only people in both of our families to continue the family name, etc.

I have no issue with the Church of Ireland and am fairly happy to raise my children with that religion but in a way, it saddens me that as I am an only child, I would be the last Catholic in my family.

My fiancé feels the same way about the Church of Ireland. If he doesn't continue the religion in his family, it will be lost forever (assuming the potential children don't decide to convert in years to come, etc).


A good compromise seems to be to do as was done in my fiance's family several times over 100 years ago; any females born would be raised as the same religion as their mother, i.e. girls would be Catholics as this was the religion of their mother, and any males would be raised as Church of Ireland as this is the Church their father belonged to. This was a very common practice from what I can see in the 1800s and early 1900s but I'm curious to know if anyone does this today?

It sounds like the perfect compromise, and neither of us have any problem with our children attending both Churches, whichever religion they may be. There wouldn't be any divide between the children.

But is it a messy solution? Has anyone done it in modern day Ireland? Or is it a matter of sticking to one religion?

This is all purely hypothetical of course, we won't be having children for several years yet and we're both easygoing people so will come to a conclusion without any problems. But I'd like to hear if anyone has had two different religions in place amongst their children. Or what do people feel about this?

I say this with the greatest of respect, but the above concern seems to be more a parental and cultural issue rather than one of Christianity. So I'll try deal with it on the 3 issues at hand. Parental, Cultural and Christian.

1. Parental: The idea of dividing ones house into boys RC and girls COI seems unwise to me. I think a united household is important. That extends to more than religion btw. There will always be differences of opinions etc, but in general, being united on matters of importance is IMO, important. i think there could be many situations which could maybe get complex with a divided religious household, but you would have to think it over for the potential issues.

2. Cultural: This deals with you 'passing on your religion'. If this is a tradition that is of importance to you, then really, only you and your wife can work this out. May I say, that this particular issue has NOTHING to do with Christ, but to do with your family 'dynasty':) for want of a better term.

3. Christianity: Christianity is by definition united in Christ. That however has not stopped man getting hold of things and messing it about. Raising ones children in Christ is whats important, not RC or COI or Pentecostal etc etc. In all of your parental and cultural conundrums above, you should make sure that Christ is what is held up as important. Maybe investigate your faith and know what you believe yourself before 'passing it on' to your children. You may just turn Christ into a cultural thing for them rather than an actual path of life.

To summarise my feelings, I'd advise you and your wife to investigate YOUR faith. I mean your own personal faith. What YOU believe. Let any decision you both make stem from there. Its important your children are not confused by mixed messages etc, and that their mum and dad are of one heart. Personally, I'd leave any cultural baggage behind (If thats all it is), and find what is best for both you and your wife, and any future children.

May your journey be a Godly one.:)

ordinarywoman

my mother had a saying...

There are many staircases...but only one landing

nozzferrahhtoo

ZAMMY wrote: »

a child raised with a religion can give it up when they're old enough to make their own choice a lot easier than a child raised without religion can pick it up at 18, if that makes sense.

It makes some sense to me, despite not being a believer, and if their future ability to give up their faith if they choose to is actually important to you then maybe you should err towards the Church Of Ireland.

If you read this forum, or pop over to the Atheists forum you will find that recently the Catholic Church has rewritten aspects of it's own Canon Law to make leaving the church by formal defection more difficult if not impossible.

In other words in their eyes once you are a Catholic you are always a Catholic. To my knowledge the COI do not do it quite the same way but relatively speaking my knowledge of their practices is smaller so I stand ready for correction on this.

So if you are keen to sign your children up to something they can later opt out of, I would urge you aware from the Catholic Church and towards the Church of Ireland.

This is just my advice based on you saying that you want it to be one or the other. If you were to ask my advice generally I would say bring them up in neither but spend their childhood explaining to what your faith is, how it works, what it means to you in your life, and what you think it would mean to them if they were to become part of it. Then let them make their own choice when they are old enough.

If you were Labour and your Fiancée Green for example you would, I hope, not sign your children up to one of those political parties from age 4 and tell them that is the political party you have decided for them that they are a member of would you?

Instead you would inform them of your political views and why you hold them and, hopefully, respect their vote or choice to not vote when they are old enough to cast one regardless of which party/independent they end up following.

So why not the same with religion?

Fanny Cradock

To clarify - this thread isn't about different religions, it's about different denominations within the same religion, Christianity.

ZAMMY, you might find a compromise works. Certain churches within both denominations - and this would be at a strictly individual church based level - would be very close in terms of worship. There are doctrinal differences, of course, but perhaps there is a church out there that manages bridge that divide.

Zombrex

Seaneh wrote: »

dont be daft man. Of chouse christians will and should go out of their way to try and ensure that their children become committed christians. if we really believe what we believe we'd be extremely bad parents if we didn't. I will do everything in my power to ensure my kids grow up and stay christians and know what a relationship with their creator is and means. It would be neglegent not to.

How is it daft?

Doesn't acceptance of your sin, Jesus and salvation etc all have to be a honest, true and understood choice, not something your kids accept because you drilled it into them when they were younger?

Them being "Christian" only in the sense that they go through the cultural and religious motions because that is what is expected of them because daddy says so just makes them cultural Catholics, and judging by the free fall religion is experiencing in the West this seems rather counter productive.

nozzferrahhtoo analogy is spot on. My 4 year old is a Labour supporter seems ridiculous, as would saying I'm going to do everything in my power to ensure when my son grows up he votes FF.

You end up with people actually rejecting in early adult life all these things that they realize where not their own choice, so I was a Christian because my parents said I had to be becomes just another in a long line (I was doing computers in college because my parents said so, I took this job I hate because my parents said so, I played rugby in school because my parents said so).

Anyway, I get the impression from the OP that a discussion on indoctrination is not what he was looking for in this thread, I just think it is funny how many Christians seem to think like you. I'm happy to take it to another thread if you are. Otherwise not much more to say really.

Zombrex

LordSutch wrote: »

Lastly, I would suggest that you don't take the route (if its a Boy he is one Religion), and if its a Girl she takes a different route > that would be a disaster in my opinion. COI also has the added advantage of Sunday School + Creche, Girls Brigade, Boys Brigade, Scouts, Harvest Festivals, Summer Fetes, Summer Camps, & lots more too, but because the Church of Ireland community is soo small nowadays, the quality of teaching & pastoral care is second to none.

While I don't agree with a lot of what is being said in this thread I would some what share Jimi' sentiments that this stuff has nothing to do with actual Christianity, the truth of the different denominations.

Choosing which religious denomination to raise your children based on them having better day care seems ridiculous.

A question to the OP, do you and your wife actually have strong faith in your religions, or is this just a cultural thing for you?

Cavehill Red

As an atheist buddhist of Catholic and Presbyterian heritage, I am not prescriptive about my child's religious beliefs, and as a result they irregularly attend Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran services with family and pals, have been to the mosque a few times, but probably believe more in buddhist tenets than anything else.

Most importantly, they have tolerance for all, and a genuine freedom in their spiritual search.

Seems healthy enough to me.

witnessmenow

Let me just say of the bat, I'm not religious, at all. I was raised a RC but I have no idea what i'm classified as now, nor do I care.

The OP asked a fairly specific questions and has had plenty of answers not relating to the question! The op has made it clear she would like to raise their children in an organised religion, yet the majority of the answers have been suggesting they dont.

Its not about "forcing" religion on kids by trying to raise them as the same faith as yourself, its about trying to pass on what you believe is best for them. There has been suggestions here that kids right from the start should choose their religion... thats not really right though is it? If kids had the right to choose what they ate, when they went to bed, when they brushed their teeth etc how many kids would do the right thing? I dont see how the examples are that different.

There is a huge difference between not raising kids with religion and letting them make their own decisions on religion.

To the op: why not alternate between both during the early years and let them make their own mind up then. Obviously there is technical differences between the two religions both I'm sure their values are the same?

On a final note, boards.ie (or the internet in general maybe?) does not seem the greatest place to discuss religion, it seems to be the "cool" thing to be against religion

getz

spanish catholic wife and i was church of england,to stop any infighting our child was named in a baptist church,not baptized [dedicated] so in later years ,if he wanted to baptized he would not have had all the burdens that main street religions come with,

philologos

ZAMMY: Why not teach your children about Christianity? I know you're RCC, and your fiancée is CofI, but actually they are both denominations of Christianity. Teach your children about God, and who Jesus is and how they should live. Going through a childrens Bible with them is probably the best way of doing this, and also from your own Biblical knowledge. That's whats really important.

I think from a Christian perspective rather than a secularist perspective this is what I would recommend. If you believe that it is really important for your child to enter into a relationship with God through His Son Jesus you should make this as easy as possible.

ZAMMY

witnessmenow wrote: »

Let me just say of the bat, I'm not religious, at all. I was raised a RC but I have no idea what i'm classified as now, nor do I care.

The OP asked a fairly specific questions and has had plenty of answers not relating to the question! The op has made it clear she would like to raise their children in an organised religion, yet the majority of the answers have been suggesting they dont.

Its not about "forcing" religion on kids by trying to raise them as the same faith as yourself, its about trying to pass on what you believe is best for them. There has been suggestions here that kids right from the start should choose their religion... thats not really right though is it? If kids had the right to choose what they ate, when they went to bed, when they brushed their teeth etc how many kids would do the right thing? I dont see how the examples are that different.

There is a huge difference between not raising kids with religion and letting them make their own decisions on religion.

To the op: why not alternate between both during the early years and let them make their own mind up then. Obviously there is technical differences between the two religions both I'm sure their values are the same?

On a final note, boards.ie (or the internet in general maybe?) does not seem the greatest place to discuss religion, it seems to be the "cool" thing to be against religion

Thanks for your post which says some of what I wanted to say.



One thing to point out to all, I'm female. I think my use of the word fiancé threw everyone off, but 'fiancée' is the female form, while 'fiancé' is the male equivalent.



I'm quite surprised at the level of response I'm getting here.

I noticed several sub-forums within the Religion & Spirituality section here on boards. I deliberately did not post this thread in the Atheism & Agnosticism section. I posted it in the Christianity sub-forum.

I assumed I would receive a response from people of a Christian background but the vast majority who have responded appear to be of an atheist background, which is fine if that's what suits them, but this is not what I want for my children. I asked a specific question which seems to have been forgotten, about following what seems to have been a family tradition in my boyfriend's family (and many others through the years), about raising the girls as one religion and the boys as the other while all children would attend both services where possible.



This type of response to religious topics seems true to the real world in Ireland these days also.


I have two friends who are of the born again background, I have a close friend who is a Jehovah's Witness, I went to college with a very strict Muslim, I have many Catholic and Protestant friends, and then I have two friends who are atheist.

Of this group of people, the only ones who constantly bring up religion and become extremely forceful with their opinions on religion, and for want of a better term, force their beliefs down your throat, are the atheists. I can safely say I have never had a religious debate or even a religious discussion with any of the others, we all live in harmony accepting each others' differences and not caring about what religion others choose to follow.

I'm not sure why this is, but I've never seen any of my religious friends pushing their religion onto the atheists, we all keep it private and to ourselves, yet I have frequently witnessed it the other way around, with those of us with religious backgrounds being questioned as to why we believe what we believe. If I wish to become and atheist in the morning, or raise my children in that way, I will go ahead and do that, I won't be swayed by the opinion of someone on the internet, or in real life for that matter. But I wish to raise my children within the Christian denominations, I'm just not sure which yet.

I think alternating between both religions is probably the best option. Thanks to all of you who supplied constructive responses. If anyone else has experience of being raised between the two churches, I'd be very interested to hear about this. But I'm not participating in a debate about why I believe what I believe and why I shouldn't raise my children without religion.

ZAMMY

LordSutch wrote: »

Great question, and a real conundrum for the parents, so, as a father with some knowledge on this subject I will give you my thoughts.

At the last census in Ireland, 98% of people proclaimed to be Catholic & ticked the [RC box], so no need to worry about that branch of the Christian Church dying out then, on the other hand if you marry in the COI and have the children Baptised there (as Christians) then you can buy time over the years as to where they fit in, instead of in the RC Church wherby they are Christined as 'Roman Catholic' at Birth! (Maybe this has changed in recent years)??? but given the choice I would take the (Baptised as Christians) route, COI children also don't get Confirmed until thay are forteen of fifteen years of age (old enough to know whats happening) instead of making their first Communion in the RC Church at the age of seven, too young to know what the vows mean?

Lastly, I would suggest that you don't take the route (if its a Boy he is one Religion), and if its a Girl she takes a different route > that would be a disaster in my opinion. COI also has the added advantage of Sunday School + Creche, Girls Brigade, Boys Brigade, Scouts, Harvest Festivals, Summer Fetes, Summer Camps, & lots more too, but because the Church of Ireland community is soo small nowadays, the quality of teaching & pastoral care is second to none.

Sorry if I'm slightly biased one way, its a very important issue I know, and I also know exactly where you are coming from, so good luck & take your time in making the right decision for your families well being, and your families future . . . .

Excellent post, LordSutch. Thanks for taking your time to reply. This is the type of information I wish to take into consideration.

Some may say it is completely wrong to take into account the levels of outside Church care, clubs and such, but these are things that are important to me. I know that my Roman Catholic childhood involved attending Mass on a Sunday and nothing more. I'd have been very excited by the idea of scouts, summer camps, etc.

Biased, perhaps, but a few more biased opinions from both sides and it may make our decision much easier!

Fanny Cradock

ZAMMY wrote: »

But I'm not participating in a debate about why I believe what I believe and why I should raise my children without religion.

I assume you meant to say "shouldn't raise my children without religion".

Anyway, let's all respect the OP's wishes regarding the intention behind this thread.

philologos

Wicknight wrote: »

How is it daft?

It's very daft from a Christian perspective.

Wicknight wrote: »

Doesn't acceptance of your sin, Jesus and salvation etc all have to be a honest, true and understood choice, not something your kids accept because you drilled it into them when they were younger?

Yes, and if parents can give their kids the tools to decide to follow Jesus for themselves at a later time I see zero issue with that. In fact it is the wise conclusion to come to if one really believes that one needs to believe in Jesus to be saved.

Wicknight wrote: »

Them being "Christian" only in the sense that they go through the cultural and religious motions because that is what is expected of them because daddy says so just makes them cultural Catholics, and judging by the free fall religion is experiencing in the West this seems rather counter productive.

Hm. I don't know about the "free fall" to be honest with you. It seems pretty much confined to Western Europe. Even then church attendances have now stablised in the UK, and church attendances are pretty high in Ireland and in some other European countries.

Wicknight wrote: »

nozzferrahhtoo analogy is spot on. My 4 year old is a Labour supporter seems ridiculous, as would saying I'm going to do everything in my power to ensure when my son grows up he votes FF.

One can say that their child has not made up their mind yet and that they are sharing about their faith with their child, just as any other parent shares what they hold dear with their children.

Wicknight wrote: »

You end up with people actually rejecting in early adult life all these things that they realize where not their own choice, so I was a Christian because my parents said I had to be becomes just another in a long line (I was doing computers in college because my parents said so, I took this job I hate because my parents said so, I played rugby in school because my parents said so).

I don't believe this is what Seaneh is referring to. We're not talking about saying that one has to, it's about telling people about what Christianity is so that they can decide whether to move on or stay at a later date.

ZAMMY

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I assume you meant to say "shouldn't raise my children without religion".

Anyway, let's all respect the OP's wishes regarding the intention behind this thread.

Oops, yes. Corrected. Thanks!

Fanny Cradock

Can we all keep this thread on topic, please.

If you guys want to continue the discussion then I suggest starting another thread. I can cut the relevant posts over if you like.

homer911

Hi Zammy - its great to be following this thread and I love the insight in your own posts.

In my (Presbyterian) church there are a few families that would be mixed Presbyterian/RC - all with children of various ages. In my experience it tends to be the spouse with the strongest personal faith that "wins out" in the adherence stakes - what often happens is that the RC partner will only turn up at church occasionally and the Presby partner more often. Unfortunately this is often interpreted by children as being that they dont need to be there and religion/faith is uninmportant, so whatever happens, may I encourage you and your future husband to be entirely united in your approach if possible, whatever that turns out to be.

Secondly may I say that the RC partners always comment positively on how much the church has to offer families and children - particularly the sunday school and bible teaching, and they all love the boisterous singing! - I'm sure this is the case in the CoI also.

Consistency and routine are most important for children - it gives them security and a sense of place - I dont think chopping and changing between churches will work, but talk to the local church leaders and I'm sure they can put you in contact with similar families to talk to.

I'd also suggest not choosing a church solely on the CoI / RC question - CoI churches vary immensly - there are good ones and bad ones (in my opinion).

Finally can I just say - Know what you believe and believe what you know - develop your own faith and your children (DV) will readily develop their own

(I should have started off by saying that I grew up in the CoI, before many years in an independent evangelical church before I joined the Presbyterian church)

Morbert

....following what seems to have been a family tradition in my boyfriend's family (and many others through the years), about raising the girls as one religion and the boys as the other while all children would attend both services where possible.

If a solution this arbitrary is a tradition, then it raises the question of how important your dilemma is in the long run. Why not just raise them as non-denominational Christians, taking advantage of the services provided by both denominations, and let the RC vs. CoI issue be damned. It would make a lot more sense than having boys believing one thing while girls believing another.

Morbert

[edit]-Double post, sorry

ordinarywoman

Some may say it is completely wrong to take into account the levels of outside Church care, clubs and such, but these are things that are important to me. I know that my Roman Catholic childhood involved attending Mass on a Sunday and nothing more. I'd have been very excited by the idea of scouts, summer camps, etc.


this is why i felt more at ease in the CoI as a child...more family orientated...in my local church they do puppeteering on the alter...by the kids...it envolves the kids that it gives them experience within the church from a young age.telling bible stories thru puppets makes church a highly entertaining and informative place to any six year old (or sixty year old)...they listen, and it holds they're attention and it has a lasting message....when we've been to mass they fidget and learn nothing...

Jester Minute

ordinarywoman wrote: »

Some may say it is completely wrong to take into account the levels of outside Church care, clubs and such, but these are things that are important to me. I know that my Roman Catholic childhood involved attending Mass on a Sunday and nothing more. I'd have been very excited by the idea of scouts, summer camps, etc.


this is why i felt more at ease in the CoI as a child...more family orientated...in my local church they do puppeteering on the alter...by the kids...it envolves the kids that it gives them experience within the church from a young age.telling bible stories thru puppets makes church a highly entertaining and informative place to any six year old (or sixty year old)...they listen, and it holds they're attention and it has a lasting message....when we've been to mass they fidget and learn nothing...

If children (and adults) were formed properly in the faith, then we wouldn't need novelties to keep them entertained or amused. The Holy Mass is not intended to be entertainment, but the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary. Of course, the Catholic Church has a rich tradition of sacred worship, which was largely abandoned in the hippy madness following Vatican II. That's also the time when loads of Catholics abandoned the Mass. I wonder why.

You may not agree with the Catholic faith, but in understanding it, one would realise how inappropriate puppets or other novelties are at Mass. In other settings these things can be beneficial, but not at the Catholic Mass.

As regards what's on in parishes, I can use my own as an example. I'm involved in pro-life and charity fund-raising. Many of the parishioners don't bother supporting these things. Most people want an easy life. It's true that things will only happen when people with initiative make the effort and there is a pool of people interested in making it happen.

ordinarywoman

how is giving kids a lasting message that they will understand and remember, and teaching them faith in an easily understandable way inappropropriate?

I never said that i didn't agree with the catholic faith...i was bought up with a healthy respect of all faiths, and Catholic church is based on Christianity.

Yes Holy Mass is a very serious matter...but teaching your child in a way that benifits them is just as serious. If a child leaves a service having learned something or have been personally involved that message stays with them forever...

Jester Minute

ordinarywoman wrote: »

how is giving kids a lasting message that they will understand and remember, and teaching them faith in an easily understandable way inappropropriate?

I never said that i didn't agree with the catholic faith...i was bought up with a healthy respect of all faiths, and Catholic church is based on Christianity.

Yes Holy Mass is a very serious matter...but teaching your child in a way that benifits them is just as serious. If a child leaves a service having learned something or have been personally involved that message stays with them forever...

It is inappropriate at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. However, such tools can be used in catechetical sessions outside the Mass. There's no reason why Catholics couldn't have a Sunday school.

Plus children aren't stupid. They know when their being talked down to. By banalising the Mass and stripping it of any element of the sacred, the kids are deprived of authentic Catholic worship, and so too are the adults.

I'd suggest Cardinal Ratzinger's 'Spirit of the Liturgy' if you want to explore this topic in more detail.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

ordinarywoman

However, such tools can be used in catechetical sessions outside the Mass. There's no reason why Catholics couldn't have a Sunday school.

I completely agree. So why haven't they??

Plus children aren't stupid,

No they are not, but i believe in making the learning process easier for my kids...if they understand something they will remember it, and our children are our future, therefore they are our churches/religions future.

Jester Minute

ordinarywoman wrote: »

I completely agree. So why haven't they??

They can't be bothered. Plus, of those who can be bothered, sadly many of them are dissenters from the Catholic faith so we're no further on.

I can be bothered. A friend and me are leading a Catholic Bible study for adults with the blessing of the PP using an approved programme (The Great Adventure series by Jeff Cavins). There are also programmes for kids: http://biblestudyforcatholics.com/

ordinarywoman

They can't be bothered.

My point proved...thats why when given the choice i chose CoI because of the long history of family orientation...sunday school, girls/boys brigade, summer camps have been well established and well run for years...since i was a child myself...its not some new fangled idea that they just thought up to get parishoners in the door on sunday

Jester Minute

ordinarywoman wrote: »

They can't be bothered.

My point proved...thats why when given the choice i chose CoI because of the long history of family orientation...sunday school, girls/boys brigade, summer camps have been well established and well run for years...since i was a child myself...its not some new fangled idea that they just thought up to get parishoners in the door on sunday

Nominal/cultural Irish Catholicism is dying. Pope Benedict has said that the Church of the future will be smaller and purer. I think that once we get rid of the dissenters (who will get bored eventually) and all those who are only going to Mass for show, then we will have a more active, dynamic, and faithful Church, which can be effective in its mission.

I wouldn't think the COI is in any better state. In fact, their best people (i.e. the Church of England trads) are coming over to the RCC because they're fed up with the antics in the Anglican Communion (women 'priests', homosexuality etc...).

At the minute we've got a large stock of goats which we really need to do something about. At the minute they're not being catered to, rather appeased. They need to be presented with the Gospel so that they can make a choice, but the priests by-and-large won't do that. Meanwhile the sheep also starve because they are not given the Gospel either, in most places.