Metro South-East: Route Options

That username is already in use.

Something to be considered for 2020/2030



Current Lines:

█ Luas Green Line
█ BRT Blue Line


Two lines are proposed:

█ Woodbrook to Swords
█ Dún Laoghaire to Tallaght

Woodbrook lies between the Dublin/Wicklow border, just off the M11 in Shankill. A Park n' Ride will go here.

I propose another Park n' Ride at Stonebridge, where there is ample room and access off the M11.

From both these Park n' Rides, it is just 35 minutes to Town. (beats the DART by 10 mins)

Most of the line is above ground, on stilts or cut-and-cover, but of course with some underground sections.

The line serves a multitude of colleges, schools, hospitals, and densely populated suburban areas. It opens up many areas of Dún Laoghaire Rathdown County for high density developent.

Metro South-East:

• St. Stephen's Green
• Leeson Street Bridge
• Morehampton Road
• Donnybrook
• UCD Belfield
• Booterstown Ave.
• The Grange
• Foxrock
• Cornelscourt
• Cabinteely
• St. Columcille's Hospital
• Stonebridge P&R (M11)
• Woodbrook P&R (M11)
• Woodbrook DART Station

Proposed is a spur from Dun Laoghaire DART station to Sandyford, to eventually connect with Metro South / West in Tallaght.

Stops:

• Dún Laoghaire DART
• Tivoli Road
• Sallynoggin
• IADT
• Deansgrange
• Foxrock
• Leopardstown Road
• Sandyford

Google Map: http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=http:%2F%2Fd1055184.blacknight.com%2Fdump%2Fdublintransport%2Fv1.4.kmz&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=6.81615,23.972168&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=10

zootroid

I would love to have seen plans for the Metro North continue underground rather than finish at Stephens Green, and take a route either east or west of the luas. I would have to come above ground eventually to lower the cost of the project. Basically, I would love to see an underground system being developed, and MN being just the start of it, not just another stand alone project

dubhthach

I think if Metro North was continued it would need to be in a South-West direction and not South-East. There is already the following decent forms of transport serving the "South-East area:

• Dart / Suburban rail
• Stillorgan QBC
• Luas - Green line

senordingdong

South east does already have a comparitivlety un-congested Dart line.
I think this would be better put to use placed in a south central direction.

Pete_Cavan

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Metro South-East:

• St. Stephen's Green
• Leeson Street Bridge
• Morehampton Road
• Donnybrook
• UCD Belfield
• Booterstown Ave.
• The Grange
• Foxrock
• Cornelscourt
• Cabinteely
• St. Columcille's Hospital
• Stonebridge P&R (M11)
• Woodbrook P&R (M11)
• Woodbrook DART Station

Proposed is a spur from Dun Laoghaire DART station to Sandyford, to eventually connect with Metro South / West in Tallaght.

Stops:

• Dún Laoghaire DART
• Tivoli Road
• Sallynoggin
• IADT
• Deansgrange
• Foxrock
• Leopardstown Road
• Sandyford

I think MN should be extended south-west (roughly Harolds Cross, Rathmines, Rathfarnham) before we look seriously at something like this, but there is no harm in having long term asperations. For the main line (St Stephens Green to Woodbrook) I dont see any point in going beyond Foxrock because after this stop a lot of the route is going through a narrow corrdior between Luas Green and Dart which is fairly well served and the population after Foxrock wouldnt justify the cost anyway. Continuing the Green Line to Bray (at some point in the future) seems like a better option to me. P&Rs on the M11 could use Luas Green. Why not just have the spur as the main line, ie. after Foxrock it heads over to Dun Laoghaire? It would be a lot less expensive and serves a much better area both in terms of employment centres and areas with potential development.

That username is already in use.

Yes, I know Metro North should continue to Metro South. This is just a fantasy spur to the South East.

Son of Stupido

Yep, I like it. A few points

The N11 Stillorgan road is ideal for light rail.

1. It is equal distance between both the DART and the Green line. I think it would have a very good catchment. At the moment if you are in the middle both are too far away to get.
2. I would point people to the plans for metro north around swords, and how the line was to be fitted into the central reservation. This could be applied here.
3. Donnybrook could be a problem
4. I think it should branch off at Cabinteely and go via Ballybrack to Killiney. Large population (away from DART & 46A) and it also opens up the coast as an amenity

I also like the branch to Dun Laoghaire.

1. A flyover at deansgrange might be needed, as well as an underpass at Foxrock/N11
2. It opens up that area to north-south traffic, which is nigh impossible at the moment (bus service in this regard is a joke)
3. As with the above, it would tie in a big population and open an amenity (the harbour) to more people

BrianD

No business or commuter case. The area shown between the maps is already served by DART on the east and LUAS to the west. It also has a QBC going up the middle. Once again we're putting expensive to build and operate infrastructure into low density population areas.

The solution is feeder buses feeding into the DART. Or just use the bus!

Zebra3

BrianD wrote: »

The solution is feeder buses feeding into the DART.

And the Luas!!!

sdanseo

To me, looking well into the future, the best bet would be for three metro lines. Swords to Tallaght, a route not unlike the OP's to the city but then following BXD to Broombridge and then onwards to Finglas, maybe Cappagh, and then the orbital.

senordingdong

sdonn wrote: »

To me, looking well into the future, the best bet would be for three metro lines. Swords to Tallaght, a route not unlike the OP's to the city but then following BXD to Broombridge and then onwards to Finglas, maybe Cappagh, and then the orbital.

I think we'd be better off with an extensive metro network that didn't connect to any CIE services.

I believe the statements that we will have a brilliant 'network' are rubbish.

BrianD

Zebra3 wrote: »

And the Luas!!!

LUAS is light rail so it doesn't make sense to run feeder buses to LUAS stops/stations.

BrianD

senordingdong wrote: »

I think we'd be better off with an extensive metro network that didn't connect to any CIE services.

Why would we not do that. Integrated transport is the future!

sdanseo

senordingdong wrote: »

I think we'd be better off with an extensive metro network that didn't connect to any CIE services.

What an absolutely ridiculous utterance.

senordingdong

A self sufficient Metro network would run far better.

BrianD

senordingdong wrote: »

A self sufficient Metro network would run far better.

Do elaborate. We're curious! A self sufficient metro would fail the needs of the people of dublin without integration into all existing modes of public transport.

mike65

I thought Waterford was getting a metro when I saw the thread title. Boo.

Wild Bill

Son of Stupido wrote: »

The N11 Stillorgan road is ideal for light rail. I also like the branch to Dun Laoghaire.

1. A flyover at deansgrange might be needed, as well as an underpass at Foxrock/N11
2. It opens up that area to north-south traffic, which is nigh impossible at the moment (bus service in this regard is a joke).

What?!! The N11 is served by the best bus way in Ireland (possibly anywhere). Why build a tramway along the 46a/145 QBC? And the Dun Laoghaire to City Centre 46a QBC is a joke?

Surely YOU are joking? :eek:

sdanseo

Wild Bill wrote: »

What?!! The N11 is served by the best bus way in Ireland (possibly anywhere). Why build a tramway along the 46a/145 QBC? And the Dun Laoghaire to City Centre 46a QBC is a joke?

Surely YOU are joking? :eek:

The same could be said for the airport and Swords. Why rely so heavily on buses every 4 mins though when a tram every 20 minutes would move the same number of people?

Think of all the better use that could be made of those buses on less dense routes which justify higher bus capacity but not light rail.

Wild Bill

sdonn - I guess you are right on that; but why wait at all when currently the average time at a 46a/145 stop (I use the route from Galloping Green to town) is about 3 minutes?

My reaction was to the bizarre claim that one of the best bus services on the planet was described as a "joke".

With that level of context and perspective these discussions are pointless. :eek:

ps: and while I'm at it - what the heck is a "self-sufficient metro"?

Son of Stupido

big problem with 46A / Stillorgan Road for Bus - congestion

BrianD

sdonn wrote: »

The same could be said for the airport and Swords. Why rely so heavily on buses every 4 mins though when a tram every 20 minutes would move the same number of people?

Think of all the better use that could be made of those buses on less dense routes which justify higher bus capacity but not light rail.

If I told you that we build an expensive rail route with a tram every 20 minutes people would be pretty disappointed.

Dublin density is low as it. The "less dense areas would" be unservicable by any mode of public transport.

sdanseo

BrianD wrote: »

If I told you that we build an expensive rail route with a tram every 20 minutes people would be pretty disappointed.

Dublin density is low as it. The "less dense areas would" be unservicable by any mode of public transport.

*cough* I was illustrating a point

senordingdong

BrianD wrote: »

Do elaborate. We're curious! A self sufficient metro would fail the needs of the people of dublin without integration into all existing modes of public transport.

I believe that the 'integration' and 'network' being spoken of is a farce.

As it is, I have to use this network and it can take me up to two and a half hours to make a journey that a car could do in one hour.
The time spend during the 'change overs' should be factored in.

By self sufficient, I mean several connected metro lines.

dowlingm

sdonn wrote: »

Why rely so heavily on buses every 4 mins though when a tram every 20 minutes would move the same number of people?

Think of all the better use that could be made of those buses on less dense routes which justify higher bus capacity but not light rail.

Careful though. Once headway goes beyond a certain point you've lost the customer. There's a tricky relationship there (including on the other hand the people who wouldn't take a bus even if one pulled up every 20 seconds)

I'd love it if a team of maths and psych folks took this on one day. What's the relationship between headway, journey time, mode and desirability of transit. So for instance someone travelling from Drogheda to Dublin might wait 30mins for the next train without a bother whereas someone travelling from Terenure to the Quays might consider waiting 20mins completely unacceptable. Another question could be what amenities could be added to stops to encourage people to wait more patiently (a wifi router in the stop pole, better shelter design, etc.)

BrianD

senordingdong wrote: »

I believe that the 'integration' and 'network' being spoken of is a farce.

As it is, I have to use this network and it can take me up to two and a half hours to make a journey that a car could do in one hour.
The time spend during the 'change overs' should be factored in.

By self sufficient, I mean several connected metro lines.

In many cities, personal transport such as cars will often be as fast or faster than public transport.

Metrostar

dowlingm wrote: »

Careful though. Once headway goes beyond a certain point you've lost the customer. There's a tricky relationship there (including on the other hand the people who wouldn't take a bus even if one pulled up every 20 seconds)

I'd love it if a team of maths and psych folks took this on one day. What's the relationship between headway, journey time, mode and desirability of transit. So for instance someone travelling from Drogheda to Dublin might wait 30mins for the next train without a bother whereas someone travelling from Terenure to the Quays might consider waiting 20mins completely unacceptable. Another question could be what amenities could be added to stops to encourage people to wait more patiently (a wifi router in the stop pole, better shelter design, etc.)

Shelters need to do a much better job protecting people from the wind and rain.

To make waiting times more predictable, key routes like the 46A should become prepay only like has been done in Sydney. So, for example, on the N11 there would be TVMs/smart card loaders at busier stops and notice boards directing folk to nearest newsagent. Or perhaps people could pay through their iPhones. Implementing all this would require some innovative thinking from Dublin Bus. Let's not hold our breath...

Wild Bill

Metrostar wrote: »

Implementing all this would require some innovative thinking from Dublin Bus. Let's not hold our breath...

Not many newsagents on the N11!

Why not some sort of on-board yoke on the bus, like the wireless visa card things in shops - every corner shop has one. Can't be that expensive.

Whatever the solution it needs to be user friendly for the occasional 46a user - otherwise you'll never get folk out of their cars. One visit to a bus-stop only to find I couldn't get a bus - and I'd kiss public transport goodbye.

But then I'm heroically impatient. :cool:

senordingdong

BrianD wrote: »

In many cities, personal transport such as cars will often be as fast or faster than public transport.

Yes, but the Dept of Trans are trying to deter car usage.
On paper anyway.

BrianD

senordingdong wrote: »

Yes, but the Dept of Trans are trying to deter car usage.
On paper anyway.

I think they are seeking balanced transport usage. However, the arguement is null for this thread as the route detailed by the OP is already served by a QBC which provides the optimum level of public transport for the area. There is no need or justification for either a metro or a light rail line.

BrianD

Actually if you look at the current population of Dublin a SW line and a NW line would be more of a priority of the well served SE area. The SE area is already well served by three spokes of transport - DART, QBC and Green line.

In the perfect world and in a city where sustainable planning and development takes place the ideal Metro line would have been Tallaght to Swords via the City Centre. The Red Line is a slow means of serving one of the largest suburbs in the city. But that's the perfect world. Tram lines could have filled in the gaps.

Telchak

BrianD wrote: »

In the perfect world and in a city where sustainable planning and development takes place the ideal Metro line would have been Tallaght to Swords via the City Centre.

Wonder would take a large chunk of red line users away. Maybe they could build a spur down the Nangor Road with the extra capacity on the line then :P (Yes, I live on the Nangor Road :rolleyes:)