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opening a SC2 gaming centre
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29-10-2010 12:40pm#1I've an idea for a gaming center/net cafe for dublin. It'd be quite similar to other net cafes, but the difference i have in mind is that it'd feel more like a club, it'd be a 24/7 place, with a fair amount of high end pc's and a reliable fast net connection. It'd be a place for running regular tournaments in all game types, and just a sociable place for gamers to hang out.
I'm thinking that 24 high end gaming machines in a large spacious room, so that people aren't cramped over each other. Several empty desks next to power/lan sockets so that for larger tourneys players can bring their own hardware.
There'd be a bunch of couches/chairs in a small section where people can relax or chat after a game. A small coffee shop or something to generate revenue and also a sectioned off area that'll be a normal netcafe.
The general feel of the place would be similar to a poker club, or a pool hall. Now i just need capital
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I've an idea for a gaming center/net cafe for dublin. It'd be quite similar to other net cafes, but the difference i have in mind is that it'd feel more like a club, it'd be a 24/7 place, with a fair amount of high end pc's and a reliable fast net connection. It'd be a place for running regular tournaments in all game types, and just a sociable place for gamers to hang out.
I'm thinking that 24 high end gaming machines in a large spacious room, so that people aren't cramped over each other. Several empty desks next to power/lan sockets so that for larger tourneys players can bring their own hardware.
There'd be a bunch of couches/chairs in a small section where people can relax or chat after a game. A small coffee shop or something to generate revenue and also a sectioned off area that'll be a normal netcafe.
The general feel of the place would be similar to a poker club, or a pool hall. Now i just need capital
I'vee been researching the possibility of something like this for quite a while during work on my current project (Nexcade).
I like what the guys in Australia done with their bar.
Manabar (video game bar)
I think that's a good example to give a potential investor a good visual image
Fair play to them.0 -
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They seem to have unbelievably high cost to run.
It is getting very hard to get people out of their comfort of their own surroundings to go play games, when most of us have access to high speed internet.
With weekly tournaments and meet ups, perhaps a league that would encourage people to come evey week, you might be onto a winner.
Sc2 looks like its got serious longterm benefits and it will be here for years, so why not.
a club sounds brilliant, because basically its something you want and enjoy.
If there was a cafe around Dublin that ran Sc2 tournaments/leagues I'd definitly leave my comfort zone to mingle with the n3rd whorde.
If anyything to just become a better player. 0 -
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Sure don't I know that
Yourself as someone working i nthe e-sport journo world, what irish events do you go to that are any use, there isnt any
Still with every new game comes a new hope and Sc2 is a new hope.
you can tell from the irc and here the community is mature and all round welcoming and helpful.
Who knows the Starleague might be a big hit and moved to lan format :P0 -
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Sounds interesting and look forward to hearing the idea develop out more , best of luck too you.
Like I said I've not being big into lans because well, I just didnt rate any of them highly.
Sc2 I know for me and a few lads is a chance to get into the lan scene if it ever gets going. And a lan tournamenet atmosphere cant be matched for intensity and craic.
Watching with interest 0 -
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It's a great idea Xios and it's clear you've given it a lot of thought, but there are some serious barriers to that sort of development going ahead in Ireland.
- Rent on premesis will be huge and it will have to be City Centre to get any sort of passing trade (which you'll desperately need). Be extremely lucky to get somewhere decent for less than €500/week
- Cost of hardware - best case scenario €900/1000 per machine X 24 Machines...
- Set up - you'll need to fit it out and decorate and that's gonna be the guts of fifteen grand.
- Tubes: You'll need a BIG internet connection as there's no more LAN versions of anything any more, so it all gets played online and a normal DSL won't cut it - upload speed being the biggest problem since even if people are sitting beside one another, they're playing online.
- Ongoing costs: Rent, ESB, Internet, Rates, Wages, you're looking at €1500-€2000 a week. Let's call it €100,000 a year before you're making any money and that's not including licences for new games or upgrades.
Even in economic boom times, a bank'd have laughed you out the door if you brought your business plan into them.
Do I think people will come? Yes and no. Some communities are great for getting together - the Fighting Games guys are a good example. PC Lan people aren't (hence the death of LAN events in Ireland). I think us SC2 players are a small but enthusiastic lot and would certainly give it a go.
The bottom line is that gamers in Ireland are a small minority with big ideas and bigger expectations, but the population and money just isn't here to support it. This sort of project would need to have 50 regulars coming in for several hours every week as well as three or four times that number as walk-in traffic for an hour at a time to make it sustainable.
All that said, I think there could be options to partner with existing businesses and put something together. One of the game shops seems the most sensible as there's mutual interest. If you could sell the idea of even starting with 8 or 10 machines in the corner of a shop and pack it out for a few months with regular tournaments and lots of buzz and more importantly, people buying games so they see a real up turn in business, then it's a maybe, but it's a big ask. It could also work with a coffee shop.0 -
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What the above also shows is that you might find a few people inteested seeing it going ahead, and will help you out.
There is alot of people looking for work out there, and for the sort of work required to get net cafe up and running, I'd say you would probbly be able to build a small contractor company from some boards posters, let alone gaming section posters.
I agree with you, there's no shortage of talents from the boards.ie user base. Even using boards to ask questions is a win in my eyes.
As for the cafe idea, i'll keep researching it, and make up a business plan before the end of the college year and submit it to banks and venture capitalists 0 -
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Okay, I've finally gotten down to read it all and here's what I got.
DISCLAIMER: Wall of text inc. Don't say I didn't "tell you so".
First and foremost, in response to the texts in the opening post:
Perhaps the biggest obstacle to exporting e-sports to the West is a lingering belief that playing computer games is not a proper job—an idea that would no doubt sound familiar to pioneers of professional sports from tennis to snooker.
There can be no denying this. I've been a gamer since the release of Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne and ~8 years later I have never once denied it. But, truth be told, the above quote is true. In another sense, it may even be true because going into a gaming career and not seeing it paying off is extremely risky. Basically, you take one year out of University to play 12 hours a day for 300 days and get nowhere? Unless you get very supporting parents or a good financial record behind you it's going to be extremely difficult. But moving back on to my point the Western belief of gaming is so incredibly different to what it is in Asia. There is simply no comparison.
It should also be noted that the major sponsorship of teams (Fnatic, SK-Gaming, EG, srsRAZER, Dignitas) in e-Sports are gaming-based corporations themselves. For Ireland, what have we got? [More on this point later]. That's my initial food for thought, because there is no way you can compare the Asia scene with any other part of the world. Even recently China are beginning to boom in e-Sports (WoW, SC2 and WC3 from personal experience); then again that's not exactly all to do with them being based in Asia.
Moving on, I fixed my eyes upon this quote:As long as the default assumption among Westerners is that computer gaming is a pastime for basement-dwelling shutins, then it is going to be hard to attract the sponsors necessary for the game to flourish.
This actually came from a different article but is still along the same lines. The quote kind of says it all. The reason for success in Korea was due to the huge sponsorship money organisations were dishing out. It is simply not viable to contemplate such organisations in Ireland. The nearest thing we have is Dignitas and UV-Gaming. [More on this later].
Okay, so not being totally negative, we have this:Now games are advertised on the London Underground, complete with quotes from reviews in the national press. The launch of the latest Halo sequel reliably warrants a slot on the nightly news. The pro-gaming tournaments that do happen in the West already attract sponsors from Intel, a chip-maker, to Doritos, a different sort of chip-maker, keen to advertise to young adults with plenty of spare cash.
How ****ing true is this of Ireland? 100%. It's actually unbelievable how common this is. Admittedly, the "media" aren't always portraying positive messages about gaming. I've lost track of the amount of times I've tuned into the radio to find someone talking about a game. Think to yourself - how often have you heard the addiction/influence levels of WoW on the radio? Take it another step, recently, how often has it been heard about the gore/violence level of the more recent games; notably GTA, COD and Killzone. Advertising on buses, bus stops, trains, shop windows and websites is so common nowadays most of us Forum-users would just look on it with complete ignorance.
I don't want to dwell on the article too much but I think it's important because all this discussion has come out of this and, of course, the OP was about the article(s).
Luckily, the writer(s) were informed of gaming and actually knew what they were on about so the perspective was interested. It was somewhat refreshing to hear a more positive and neutral (lol) side to it all. Realistically, the writer(s) saw the problems that would be associated with all this off the bat and it is something all of us here, as simple Forum-users, have to recognise as well.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be negative, but for us as gamers' it is so simple to just dwell on all the positives and overlook all the negatives that could easily come crashing down in a split second.
So, do I have an opinion? Yes. Do I have a solution? I have ideas.
So, Xios, you've obviously taken this article to heart and I like that. I'm not going to fault your enthusiasm, in fact, I'm not going to dwell on the negatives significantly. However, I am going to throw some questions out there because I haven't fully investigated it and I've never really needed to because of Warcraft III's own LAN system.
First of all, outside of Midlans, does Dublin (just taking this as the place accessible to most of the people here) have any serious gaming café's that could incorporate people to get together and host (for example) a 32-player LAN Tournament? I don't know the gaming scene in Dublin as I've never needed to access it as mentioned above. But, I believe this THE most important question. If you were to go ahead and try and organise something like would you have competition? Are the resources already there? Are the facilities already there and is there a "gaming centre" available already.
At this point, I'm just going to give you some background information as to where I come from in terms of e-Sports. I don't want to boast, but I will outline a list of Achievements I have achieved online up until this point.
Warcraft III
My first love. I bought the game the day I got broadband, never played the campaign and jumped straight into 4v4 RT. Oh man, did people love me! Anyway, after about two or three years of playing I moved onto 1v1 exclusively and began to watch replays and get more "knowledgable" on the competitve e-Sports scene in Warcraft III. Eventually, after I think three years I joined the world's largest Gaming Organisation - Warrior Nation. Not really a big deal, but this was my first major experience at a structured network with goals, objectives, support and resources.
In Warrior Nation, I quickly began the leading organiser for the WN.WC3EU Section (under the alias WNxGodSinister) and signed us up for various Leagues and Tournaments - notably WC3CL and ESL. In the space of two years I recruited a team who were committed and motivated and we promoted up three divisions to Division 2 before the inevitable decline of Warcraft III.
During these two years I began training extensively myself, becoming accustomed to the "cookie-cutter" builds and signing up for Tournaments that are still noted today - ZOTAC and ESL - as well as various other Tournaments. Eventually, ENC, EPS and WCG 2009 came around and I signed up for Qualifiers. Guess what? I qualified as the third seed (of a 5 man squad) behind the famous DeMuslim and very good player Bassfly.
So yeah, in short I represented UK.WC3 in EPS and ENC 2009.
After that (because the UK were seeded in the top division we didn't have to play many games) the UK Admins contacted me again regarding setting up an Irish ENC squad. I went ahead and did it and eventually gatherd 4 of the best players in Ireland to get a squad out for ENC 2009. In the first round we got matched up against Spain (The famous LucifroN and brothers Ryo and VoshiX) and the games were streamed live in front of more than 5,000 people (3 1v1 and 1 2v2 all BO3). To be fair, that was a pretty massive achievement for Irish e-Sports, especially in Warcraft 3. Anyway, we lost to Spain in what was an incredible experience and we always have the excuse:
"So, who'd Ireland lose to?"
"Spain."
"WHAT? They went on to win ENC that year, right?"
"Yep" there ya go!
So yeah, obviously I became involved with the team aspect of WCGIreland 2009, but as most of you know that was the year that they decided to discontinue Irish WCG and so nothing became of it - shame.
So, to summarise:- Several quarter and semi-final appearances in professional 1v1 Tournaments while being an amateur.
- Rank 10, Northrend, 1v1. Level 42 - Human.
- UK.WC3 player for ENC and EPS 2009.
- Leader, organiser and player of Ireland.WC3 ENC 2009.
- Organiser and player of Warrior Nation's Warcraft III (EU) squad which got promoted three divisions in two years.
World of Warcraft- Ex-member of the World's leading Alliance Guild - Method.
- Regarded as the best Restoration Shaman (Horde-side) on Ahn'Qiraj EU.
- Currently a member of the World top 25 Guild - Paparazzi (Balnazzar EU).
- Realm First Halion HC 25.
- Light of the Dawn.
Like I said, I don't want to boast but I do want to give an insight as to how competitive and serious I am towards gaming. I've been successful in several games and will continue to do so in Starcraft 2 while always attempting to be an ambassador for Irish e-Sports.
So where does this lead my argument? Well, basically, I have no experience of Irish LANs or internet/gaming centres, because quite frankly I've never needed to. Warcraft III had it's own LAN implementations and WoW simply can't be played at a gaming centre - or at least there's no need to. So, when it comes to that I can't offer you a whole lot other than what would attract myself, sponsors and big names because I don't have the physical experience behind my back. When it comes to knowing what I'm talking about and competing at the highest level at e-Sports then that's where I come in. Unfortunately, that is not this topic
So moving back to my original question: Is there already an easily accessible gaming center in Dublin (not necessarily in the city)? What facilities does it have? ie; how many PCs? Does it have a bar or a café? What other consoles and sources of entertainment are available? What's the charge for the facilities?
I think that should, ultimately, be the "research question".
Going from there, yes, you have the boards.ie Starcraft 2 users. But that doesn't make it viable to try and form such a facility you're aiming for. I can see it as a good starting point for people to get around a table, have a few beers and throw some ideas at each other but that's it. I like the business idea, I especially like the idea of approaching GameStop or Game and then taking the business idea to the banks (you know how that's going to turn out inevitably though). But you're going to have to move out of the Starcraft 2 zone and look at other popular games in Ireland (I believe CoD and CS:S/1.6 are?). Then, the next step would be to try and find an already existing facility - I liked the idea of a conference room but that's really only a short-term plan for a weekend LAN or something? Like I said, if such a facility exists then a partnership or outlining a clear business plan to an already existing center may reap HUGE potential.
Now, sponsorship. You mentioned Game - good, at least you're thinking. But realistically they aren't going to sponsor anything more than a weekend LAN. What you're looking for here is a sponsor for an annual basis (in the facility) or better yet to sponsor a team. In one way, this can be approach differently.
Currently, I'm a member of UltraViolet Gaming (http://uv-gaming.eu/) Ireland's leading e-Sports organisation. Since joining I've had regular contact with the CEO who is currently the SC2 manager and his goals are very simliar to yours - to ultimately get a recognisable e-Sports community present in Ireland on a regular basis. I'm very enthusiastic about the situation and I have to credit the organisation, Kraski in particular, for really laying down a benchmark for Irish gaming. In terms of sponsorship, UV already has existing sponsorship, so maybe getting in contact with that organisation would be of help to you and perhaps you could work together to outline a business plan and organise some capital. I know Kraski would be behind it and it would certainly enable the possibility of getting the entire project off the ground.
Now, I understand Midlans occurs every few months (????) and is a very popular event. So, obviously, the interest is there. But this entire idea would be more plausible if a convention or center of some sort already existed and it was attempted to be improved on.
To finish I have two last suggestions/thoughts.
A Tournament
If the facility I mentioned above does exist, why not get them to sponsor an online Tournament with a prize pool of, say, 50-100€. Assuming the business is doing fine it won't be too hard to get 100 quid together. Now, what this will do is not only expose the Irish gaming scene but it will attract the big names to compete (be it if they only want to for the money) and in turn big names attract casters, which in turn attract publicity. See where I'm going with this? Funky has already managed to organise a successful Tournament before it has even started and that's only internally. Imagine getting a 560 slot sponsored Tournament (even if you can't get an existing gaming facility, why not try to apprach GameStop [because they're Irish] and get them to throw in 50 quid to a prize pool? They have the money) where every member of this Forum competed and you attracted the usual names from the EU scene. Trying to organise it on a day with no existing prize Tournament already would be even better (ZOTAC, CraftCup and GO4SC2 primarily). The Irish players would get an opportunity to play against world-class players and certain people in higher leagues could even be seeded (myself, Neo and Slayer) so as to ensure they get to further rounds (this isn't cheating, it's standard procedure in Tournaments today).
You can get my idea, I assume, so leave some feedback on it.
Getting together
For people who are seriously interested in this, why don't you all get together round a pub table and discuss the ideas over a few beers? Recently, I met a WoW mate in Temple Bar who came over for a job interview and we had a good time and it was good to be able to just "meet the person behind the screen" so-to-say. On the day you could discuss various ideas - research questions, business statement, capital, sponsorship, location, facilities, resources, etc, etc.
As I said, trying to organise a place where everyone would be able to meet would be difficult and it's a shame GamerExpo got canceled because that would have been the ideal place but a €2.20 bus ticket into the city to just have a discussion on such things wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing by any means, in my opinion.
Apologies for the wall-of-text I didn't want to rush into any replies here and I think I've laid down a few interesting ideas and concepts without being entirely negative. Obviously I'm not a total neutral, I'd like to see these things be successful as much as any of you but realistically I can't see it happening without serious thought and "knuckling-down" to it ASAP.
Feedback and comments appreciated!0 -
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Wow, sinister, submit that to a newspaper
But you are right, market research and a strong business plan are essential before going ahead with any business. And a Starcraft beers night out would be great.
There are 2 internet café's that i'm aware of that have gaming machines. One is 5 star on talbot street, which i've played in. And the other is on liffey street, dunno what's it's called.
As for the five star net cafe, having been to a lan organised by a guy with a username 'Merlin' many years back in 2006/7 i believe. But there was quite a show up, 40+ if i remember correctly.
the cafe had good machines, but the spacing and general aura about the place was none too appealing. You literally had to squeeze through all the chairs just to get to your pc, and while playing at one, people kept bumping your chair while walking by. I believe it was set up by some koreans.
I think we should all go for a couple drinks, then go to this cafe and play some starcraft, get an idea about what the place is like now.0 -
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Lol, well I just had a quick look at it (still am) and it seems that it doesn't have SC2 yet? Maybe the site isn't updated but....
EDIT: Also not 24 hours like the other. Opens from 9 to 9.
EDIT 2: http://centers.gametheworld.com/aboutus.php This won me over, I want to be there now. This really does look like a quality location. Will definitely be checking this and the other out this weekend Will probably write up a bit of a report on Sunday for anyone interested.
EDIT 3: **** me it sounds expensive.0 -
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Just on the 5star issue.
They are sound blokes in there always up for hosting lans.
I was at GHM lan organised by Merlin and that was a bit of a disaster, the setup in there is ok but its an absolute swetbox and its very tightyl packed.
I've not played many lans here, but I've been to many abroad and have been to some big ones working for big companies. I won't outline the specifics like Sinister because like his post its a long list but I guess I've got as much experience if not a little more working around/with professional players etc.
Obviously the big thing is deciding what your tournaments are going to be, based aorund competitive play attracting big players giving out big prizes, or if your going down the route of creating a good atmosphere with friendly lans.
Each are as difficult as each other. I can tell you straight off the bat, as been outlined here, running LANs are time consuming and expensive, and its pretty hard to get ANY sponsorship or support from any organisation to back your LAN.
There is literally no return from them and you are pretty much asking them to sink money for nothing. The likes of the big tournaments get the backing because they are broadcasted live to thousands of viewers on the web and they get great exposure.
For example GHM lan in their pre lan statement promised lots of prizes etc. On the night the WC3 tournament seemed to get canceled, a tourny was run on the super sly without much people knowing and after winning I got a Logitech Pen.
For second place in the CS1.6 tournament I got nothing, first place got a pretty lame logitech t-shirt.
My point being if you are looking into prizes for competitions, make sure you have them, and if you dont, just dont advertise prizes.
I would be happy as larry going to a lan with a nice atmosphere, paying my money, knowing if I won I wasnt getting anything, aslong as I got to meet new people, improved my game and got more lan experience.
However if there was a promise of a prize and when it came to it there was none or lame prizes, end of lan thereforward pretty much.
Its a big decision for yourself, its a massive financial investment. Personally I don't think its viable and the last thing I'd do if I won a million quid was open a lan cafe. I'd prefer to put the time and effort and money into organising an online league/tournament.
I see there is alot of talk of locations and in fairness I havnt seen one that catches the eye. Gamesworld on Grafton street is small and crowded, five star is small and crowded and a swet box.
Like I said I don't have experience in running lands I just have bags of experience attending and operating within the big ones.
If you decide to go ahead with, best of luck, I'm sure I'll attend and get mates to also. But it might also be worth looking into something like an online tournament structure.
The idea of hiring a net cafe is much more viable then creating your own from scratch. But when you do hire your passing over alot of your control and organisatin to cater for the company itself.
Remember, these net cafes make their money from users browsing the web and sending emails etc. Gamers are literally none of their income when you look at the larger picture. So if you are asking them to provide say 50 spaces, youd want to make sure you can provide fifty people, and the price they might demand for the fifty people might be a bit high.
I know looking back GHM was a pretty big disiaster and piss take, and I did pay a fair amount of money for it.
That experience probably tarnishes the possible good others can do, but even with Airsoft, so many times I've been consulted on new sites and new ventures and its usually people with extravagent ideas, little knowledge or experience and no business savy.
Its a big deal lads and its a big move, make sure you get the right advice and counsel and make sure your 100% happy it can be a success.
Best of luck.0 -
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