Property Tax To Increase Rents

senordingdong

So with the new property tax around the corner, does anybody else reckon this will make landlords increase the rent on their properties?

housetypeb

They can try-but its a renters market at the moment.
Seems the pressure is downwards at the moment with rent and house prices.

am i bovvered

As far as I know the proposed tax is for owner-occupiers.
There is already a property tax for landlords.

stigofthesump

senordingdong wrote: »

So with the new property tax around the corner, does anybody else reckon this will make landlords increase the rent on their properties?

All depends on what the market will stand and the tenant/landlord relationship. Not in the short term but it might have an effect in a couple of years.

senordingdong

housetypeb wrote: »

They can try-but its a renters market at the moment.
Seems the pressure is downwards at the moment with rent and house prices.

I've heard this being said alot lately but to be honest, I don't think it's true at all.

In all the places I've looked, the rents fell about 10-20% over a year ago and just held steady.

Specualtion aside, it just doesn't make sense to me that after the drop in prices, landlords lowered their rates.
And now ontop of this hit to their coffers, they may have to start paying out for the BTL properties.

Could be a disaster waiting to happen.

J-blk

senordingdong wrote: »

In all the places I've looked, the rents fell about 10-20% over a year ago and just held steady.

I'm seeing rent prices all over the map TBH. For example, in my estate, there are about 5-6 2 bed apartments for rent currently and every one of these is identical in layout, size, etc. The most expensive one is advertised for €1095 and the cheapest one for €900 - which is a pretty crazy price difference for identical apartments. What I think is happening is that initially we were seeing more obvious price drops on Daft.ie, etc but at this stage, most landlords are aware of how the market has adjusted and tend to build in "buffers" of €100-150 into their monthly rents that the tenant will negotiate down so that they still get close to what they hope they'd get and the tenant feels that they got a reduction... Or maybe I'm just paranoid :P.

However, because there are such big fluctuations and there is still a glut of properties out there (at least of a certain type) there will be landlords out there who lower their prices to rent as quickly as possible, even if others around them raise their prices in trying to pass on the property tax.

I know it's another burden on property owners, but this is one of the good things about being a tenant: it's not my problem. I got a €125 rent reduction this year but could still find a comparable property for a bit cheaper easily enough, it's just not worth the hassle of moving for the saving in question. But if the landlord tries to raise the rent next year to pass on the property tax, then I'll just move on and probably end up paying less than what I pay now even.

pooch90

Frankly, unless rent allowance is increased to allow for property tax then rents will remain stagnant or continue to fall.

Mary Hairy

Rents are determined by supply and demand. Nothing else. The reality is that there is little new building and there are very few properties coming onto the renatl market for the first time. As agianst that there are formerly rented properties being sold off. A property tax will accelerate this in two ways. Some landlords will not be able or willing to continue letting. Renters will be less anxious to buy given the new tax situation. As these developments work through, over time, rents will increase.

Ste.phen

Mary Hairy wrote: »

Rents are determined by supply and demand. Nothing else. The reality is that there is little new building and there are very few properties coming onto the renatl market for the first time. As agianst that there are formerly rented properties being sold off.

Sold off to who? Most people buying a house will be a) vacating another rental property, or b) buying it specifically to rent it out. The number of people who'll remove a rental property from the market without vacating another is low (IMHO)

A property tax will accelerate this in two ways. Some landlords will not be able or willing to continue letting. Renters will be less anxious to buy given the new tax situation. As these developments work through, over time, rents will increase.

And thus they'll sell it to someone who either will, or to someone who'll move out of their existing property.

it's not quite a zero sum game, but it's not far off either.

jmayo

Mary Hairy wrote: »

Rents are determined by supply and demand. Nothing else. The reality is that there is little new building and there are very few properties coming onto the renatl market for the first time. As agianst that there are formerly rented properties being sold off. A property tax will accelerate this in two ways. Some landlords will not be able or willing to continue letting. Renters will be less anxious to buy given the new tax situation. As these developments work through, over time, rents will increase.

One thing you are forgetting is the little matter of the government providing massive rent allowance that is keeping an artifical floor on rents.
Now I know there probably would not be a any €2,000 a month properties with rent allowance tenants, but the rent allowance system still skews the entire market.

Cut rent allowance and rents will have to fall as lots of renters could not afford the rents.
I am a big proponent of cutting rent allowance as it is unfair on renters who are not in receipt of it, renters whose taxes are probably being used to be pay some renters too high a rent.
Also why should the taxpayers of the country pay big chunk of investors mortgages ?

senordingdong

jmayo wrote: »

Cut rent allowance and rents will have to fall as lots of renters could not afford the rents.

This is another concept that has gotten thrown around alot over the past two years, and one that I disagree with.

If it is a 'renters paradise out there' then many landlords wouldn't have trouble replacing a tenant whos RA just got cut.

J-blk

senordingdong wrote: »

If it is a 'renters paradise out there' then many landlords wouldn't have trouble replacing a tenant whos RA just got cut.

Why? It's exactly because it is hard to replace tenants these days that it makes things a "renter's paradise". If tenants were abundant and easy to replace, it would be good for the landlords and back to the way things were during the boom, with people queuing up to rent places in some areas...

senordingdong

Yeah you're right.

I just don't see landlords agressivly competing.

mrgaa1

if landlords are using the rental income to pay for that particular dwelling then I can see the property tax being added on. I can't see the property tax being restricted to owner occupiers only as this would mean I'd buy a house, you could buy the one next door and we'd rent each others house therefore by-passing the tax.
When they introduce it'll be a blanket tax for all houses except unoccupied places. Someone has to pay the property tax and if you are renting then one of the parties has to pay for it. The most sensible way would be to have the landlord pay it and the rent increased to cover it.
For example if a tax was put onto the tyres for your vehicle - lets say an additional 5euro from now to cover further recycyling or something like that. It'd be simple - the seller of the tyres will add it on. Its simple economics.

Higgsy

Not sure about the members of this forum, but I feel I dont have a voice any longer. The government do not have a mandate for the policies they are currently trying to implement.

I for one, want to have a voice. If you agree, sign the petition:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/notoirishpropertytax/

Mary Hairy

Ste.phen wrote: »

Sold off to who? Most people buying a house will be a) vacating another rental property, or b) buying it specifically to rent it out. The number of people who'll remove a rental property from the market without vacating another is low (IMHO)


And thus they'll sell it to someone who either will, or to someone who'll move out of their existing property.

it's not quite a zero sum game, but it's not far off either.

Most purchasers are now first time buyers. Many are moving out of parental homes. New household formation will cut the supply of rental properties. This will be offset to some extent by emigration. As rents fall tenants take more space. There are couples renting two beds where previously they would have rented a one bed. Single people renting one beds where previously they would have rented studios. Houses in studios are being converted back to family homes. The net number of rented properties will fall as a result of the current economic situation. So will the number of tenants. Rental levels will be determined by the relative declines in each category.

Blackjack

Council Tax in the UK is payable by the resident - i.e. if Owner Occupier, the owner pays. If Rented, the tenant pays.

Means you take great care when renting as to what the Council Tax band is of the place you are looking at.

People on Welfare, students and single occupancies get reductions, not sure what these are.

If the property is unoccupied, there is a reduction of the tax payable, but there is still a tax payable by the owner.

am i bovvered

Blackjack wrote: »

Council Tax in the UK is payable by the resident - i.e. if Owner Occupier, the owner pays. If Rented, the tenant pays.

Means you take great care when renting as to what the Council Tax band is of the place you are looking at.

People on Welfare, students and single occupancies get reductions, not sure what these are.

If the property is unoccupied, there is a reduction of the tax payable, but there is still a tax payable by the owner.

If it has to come in this would be the best way, with a reduction for people who paid capital gains in the last 5 or so years.

irishguy

Ya this is the best way. The resident should be charged.

ilovesleep

I dont get why a property tax would fall onto tenents. Those that are renting will never own the property. Its not theirs. Its just their home and a place to live while they are paying a LL. I know its not going to be easy on LLs either if the responsiblty falls onto the LL. There is obviously a reason why people rent - they need a home and may not be able to afford a mortgage and property and renting is more affordable and ideal. Suddenly people are expected to find 80 euro a month on top of rent.

I can manage bills very well and keep things to a minimum. I have no car so no car bills. With esb I can switch off what I'm not using and wear extra layers in winter. I can walk around in the dark and cold. Have no loans. Food bills can easily be reduced. With this property tax it will be a big fat bill for 80 euro a month and no ways of reducing it except for becoming homeless, moving back home, or sharing with others.

Im working full time at about min wage and will not be able to afford this property tax.

irishguy

Your getting the benefit of living in the house/area. The proposed 80 per month was on a house value of 260k (I think) so if you were renting, you could move to a cheaper house to reduce the amount you pay in property tax or if your sharing the house then its shared among all the residents.

Blackjack

ilovesleep wrote: »

I dont get why a property tax would fall onto tenents. Those that are renting will never own the property. Its not theirs. Its just their home and a place to live while they are paying a LL. I know its not going to be easy on LLs either if the responsiblty falls onto the LL. There is obviously a reason why people rent - they need a home and may not be able to afford a mortgage and property and renting is more affordable and ideal. Suddenly people are expected to find 80 euro a month on top of rent.

I can manage bills very well and keep things to a minimum. I have no car so no car bills. With esb I can switch off what I'm not using and wear extra layers in winter. I can walk around in the dark and cold. Have no loans. Food bills can easily be reduced. With this property tax it will be a big fat bill for 80 euro a month and no ways of reducing it except for becoming homeless, moving back home, or sharing with others.

Im working full time at about min wage and will not be able to afford this property tax.

Likelihood is that any tax would need to be factored into the Rent too, so there should be reductions to rent as a result.

ilovesleep

irishguy wrote: »

Your getting the benefit of living in the house/area. The proposed 80 per month was on a house value of 260k (I think) so if you were renting, you could move to a cheaper house to reduce the amount you pay in property tax or if your sharing the house then its shared among all the residents.

Im renting in the locality that im working in. I wouldnt be able to just get up and move.

irishguy

ilovesleep wrote: »

Im renting in the locality that im working in. I wouldnt be able to just get up and move.

Why not?

ilovesleep

irishguy wrote: »

Why not?

Extremely poor bus service.

jmayo

senordingdong wrote: »

This is another concept that has gotten thrown around alot over the past two years, and one that I disagree with.

If it is a 'renters paradise out there' then many landlords wouldn't have trouble replacing a tenant whos RA just got cut.

So you think it is a good idea that your taxes (if you are paying any which I don't know or care) are going to pay someones inflated rent and thus some landlords mortgage or income.
Rent allowance is subsidising the landlords and ensuring there is an artifical floor on rents.
It is a market distortion but of course we know how ff like to distort the market in favour of the sellers.

I have no idea what you mean by your second sentence ?

irishguy wrote: »

Your getting the benefit of living in the house/area. The proposed 80 per month was on a house value of 260k (I think) so if you were renting, you could move to a cheaper house to reduce the amount you pay in property tax or if your sharing the house then its shared among all the residents.

Why should the tenants pay a property tax ?
They do not own or will ever own the asset.
Look at it as an tax on an asset.
And please do not come quoting how the bank owns the asset and not the owner.

senordingdong

jmayo wrote: »

So you think it is a good idea that your taxes (if you are paying any which I don't know or care) are going to pay someones inflated rent and thus some landlords mortgage or income.
Rent allowance is subsidising the landlords and ensuring there is an artifical floor on rents.
It is a market distortion but of course we know how ff like to distort the market in favour of the sellers.

I have no idea what you mean by your second sentence ?

Fair point.
But up untill now I looked at it differently. The way I looked at it was that we are in this mess becasue of reliance on property.
If rent allowances were discontinued, alot of BTL properties would lie idle indefinitely, and I think this in turn, would screw us all as landlords/builders wouldn't get their money back, the banks in turn, and then the govt./taxpayer in turn.

By the second sentence I meant that it seems that with the words 'renters paradise' getting thrown around the past two years, I see alot of renters coming out of the woodwork, that wouldn't have rented before the burst, or wouldn't have thought themselves able to afford the luxury.
I think there are so many people renting/looking to rent now that landlords don't feel they have to succumb to the govt. requests to lower their rates.

gurramok

senordingdong wrote: »

Fair point.
But up untill now I looked at it differently. The way I looked at it was that we are in this mess becasue of reliance on property.
If rent allowances were discontinued, alot of BTL properties would lie idle indefinitely, and I think this in turn, would screw us all as landlords/builders wouldn't get their money back, the banks in turn, and then the govt./taxpayer in turn.

The govt control 50% of the market, about 90,000+ humans. If RA was reduced tomorrow, the landlords will not find that many people to lease their properties to if ahem they refused to renew the rents at the lower rates. And if as you say that alot of them are in trouble, they will take every cent they can get.

If they get screwed, tough sh1t. They are business people and giving them borrowed money via welfare is less of a priority than feeding people on the dole for example.

senordingdong wrote: »

By the second sentence I meant that it seems that with the words 'renters paradise' getting thrown around the past two years, I see alot of renters coming out of the woodwork, that wouldn't have rented before the burst, or wouldn't have thought themselves able to afford the luxury.
I think there are so many people renting/looking to rent now that landlords don't feel they have to succumb to the govt. requests to lower their rates.

Based on what? I certainly do not see an avalanche of renters.

Tigger

mrgaa1 wrote: »

if landlords are using the rental income to pay for that particular dwelling then I can see the property tax being added on. I can't see the property tax being restricted to owner occupiers only as this would mean I'd buy a house, you could buy the one next door and we'd rent each others house therefore by-passing the tax.
When they introduce it'll be a blanket tax for all houses except unoccupied places. Someone has to pay the property tax and if you are renting then one of the parties has to pay for it. The most sensible way would be to have the landlord pay it and the rent increased to cover it.
For example if a tax was put onto the tyres for your vehicle - lets say an additional 5euro from now to cover further recycyling or something like that. It'd be simple - the seller of the tyres will add it on. Its simple economics.

i'm a renter and i'll tell you now i'll be paying no property tax rental increase

if he wants the rent to go up he can find another tenant

jimmycrackcorm

Tigger wrote: »

i'm a renter and i'll tell you now i'll be paying no property tax rental increase

if he wants the rent to go up he can find another tenant

So where is this property-tax less place you'll be going to?

Tigger

there are many large houses to rent around here if i move the landlord is looking at having this place empty for a long time or he could reduce the rent by the property tax and life goes on

his call but i'll keep ye updated

irishguy

jmayo wrote: »

Why should the tenants pay a property tax ?
They do not own or will ever own the asset.
Look at it as an tax on an asset.
And please do not come quoting how the bank owns the asset and not the owner.

In the UK and the US the resident pays the tax regardless if they are renting or own. Which is the way it should be. Imposing a property tax on landlords/owner occupiers would kill the property market, as it would force more people to sell and there would be even more of a reason to rent.

Also what about all the relatively well off young professionals who are earning good money and renting. This would not hit them and would completely discourage them from buying.

Macha

irishguy wrote: »

Imposing a property tax on landlords/owner occupiers would kill the property market, as it would force more people to sell and there would be even more of a reason to rent.

Also what about all the relatively well off young professionals who are earning good money and renting. This would not hit them and would completely discourage them from buying.

And yet other countries have property taxes and property markets in much better shape than Ireland's.

irishguy

Sorry I meant imposing it on just owner occupiers/landlords will kill property market, if its being done it should be for all residents.

Darlughda

JMayo, you insist on promoting this stupid myth about rent allowance so maybe you should inform yourself to the reality of what the rent allowance rather are and what it is like to be a rent allowance tenant.

jmayo wrote: »

One thing you are forgetting is the little matter of the government providing massive rent allowance that is keeping an artifical floor on rents.

Massive rent allowance? Where on earth are you getting this info from?
The very very max for a single person renting in the Dublin area is €529 pm and for a single person sharing is €390.
Todays Daft. No. of one beds for rent in same Dublin area .............995
Todays Daft. No. of one beds for rent accepting RA and within cap....35

jmayo wrote: »

Now I know there probably would not be a any €2,000 a month properties with rent allowance tenants, but the rent allowance system still skews the entire market..

No, that is sheer and utter bollícks being sprouted about €2k properties (lol), so off the mark that there is no way anyone can take your assumption seriously that the rent allwoance system stills skews the entire market!

jmayo wrote: »

rent allowance and rents will have to fall as lots of renters could not afford the rents ..

The rent allowance caps are way BELOW the market rate. This is why it is so much easier for renters who are not reliant on rent allowance!

jmayo wrote: »

I am a big proponent of cutting rent allowance as it is unfair on renters who are not in receipt of it, renters whose taxes are probably being used to be pay some renters too high a rent.

oh great.
At present out of my disability benefit in shared accomodation, I pay my landlord an extra €26 from my disability benefit, and that's with the max amount of RA available to a single person in shared accom in this country.

So, in addition to welfare being slashed on 7 Dec budget, you would advocate a slash in rent allowance. Okay, would you like to negotiate with my landlord why he should drop the rent specifically for me in the household? or ask him not to evict me because, sorry, I just can't make the rent anymore?

jmayo wrote: »

Also why should the taxpayers of the country pay big chunk of investors mortgages ?

I agree. Social housing was overlooked in the greed years. Nonetheless, the very occassional landlord is not greedy, and accepts rent allowance from RA tenants who are at serious risk of no longer being able to afford even these reduced tenancy rates, ie rent.

TBH, your flagrant ignorance in your postings disgust me.

Blackjack

I'd be more accepting of Rent allowance if it was paid directly to the Landlord, as opposed to being paid to the Tenant by cheque.

It's still too much in any case.

Darlughda

Blackjack wrote: »

I'd be more accepting of Rent allowance if it was paid directly to the Landlord, as opposed to being paid to the Tenant by cheque..

It is not paid by cheque.
The tenant collects the very reduced amount of rent allowance from the post office each week the rest is left to them to make up the difference.
In my case, €114 pm.

Why do you think there would be any difference if this amount was paid directly to the landlord?

The RA tenant still has to subsidise the difference. How does a portion of the sum of the rent being paid directly to the landlord be any different from another tenant who is not on RA?

Blackjack wrote: »

It's still too much in any case.

Justify this statment please?

Blackjack

Darlughda wrote: »

It is not paid by cheque.
The tenant collects the very reduced amount of rent allowance from the post office each week the rest is left to them to make up the difference.
In my case, €114 pm.

What form does it have when collected from the post office, and who is it made out to?.

Darlughda wrote: »

Justify this statment please?

Not sure I have to, but I'll bite.
Its a lot of money simply given to subsidise the Rental Property Industry.

I note you mention that you are on Disability, which would make what I'm about to say sound a little bit cold. It does not necessarily apply to you, please remember.

There are plenty of people receiving rent allowance who are more than capable of going out and working for their money, but choose not to, because this is a little easier.

Single Person Renting who's on minimum wage and working 40 hours a week, earns 1384 euros in total for 4 weeks work. They have to pay rent from this too - why would you work if you knew you were going to get up to 529 or 390 in Rent allowance as well as 800 euros Dole for the same 4 weeks for not working?.

As Long as the Government continues to pay these amounts, it creates a minimum rent amount that the those not entitled to Social Welfare or Rent allowance need to compete with having to pay this direct from their wage packets.

In reality, the Government should never have allowed a situation where they were paying this amount in Rent allowances in the first instance.

Darlughda

Blackjack wrote: »

Not sure I have to, but I'll bite..

You sure do, baby, you made the sweeping statement.

Blackjack wrote: »

Its a lot of money simply given to subsidise the Rental Property Industry. ..

.
As per my previous post. Reality check. 995 1 bed properties avail in Dublin, 35 are within RA cap limits and accept rent allowance

Blackjack wrote: »

There are plenty of people receiving rent allowance who are more than capable of going out and working for their money, but choose not to, because this is a little easier...

.
Ara, bollíx. There are a very small percantage of the pyjama lifestylers stigmatised in every western society, but the majority cannot get work for legitimate reasons.

Blackjack wrote: »

Single Person Renting who's on minimum wage and working 40 hours a week, earns 1384 euros in total for 4 weeks work. They have to pay rent from this too - why would you work if you knew you were going to get up to 529 or 390 in Rent allowance as well as 800 euros Dole for the same 4 weeks for not working?.

so, that works out at €346 pw which is NOT TAXED on PRSI, whereas the dole recepient like myself receives €196pw in theory, but in reality that is less than €170 after you have paid out contribution to the FULL rate of rent allowance.

Blackjack wrote: »

As Long as the Government continues to pay these amounts, it creates a minimum rent amount that the those not entitled to Social Welfare or Rent allowance need to compete with having to pay this direct from their wage packets.

Again need I quote the rates of RA available and how hard it is to find these below market rate RA accomadation with landlords who are decent enough not to be stupidly prejudiced in accepting RA?
As I stated, Tonight on Daft.ie
I bed apts in Dub 995 available
1 bed apts in Dub within rent allowance limits and acceting of RA 35

gurramok

Darlughda wrote: »

Ara, bollíx. There are a very small percantage of the pyjama lifestylers stigmatised in every western society, but the majority cannot get work for legitimate reasons.

A high percentage in my opinion seeing them every day. At least 3 pyjama lifestylers live in my apt complex on rent allowance. Oh, they have kids as rent allowance limits is based on the number of humans claiming, not on bedrooms.

Darlughda wrote: »

Again need I quote the rates of RA available and how hard it is to find these below market rate RA accomadation with landlords who are decent enough not to be stupidly prejudiced in accepting RA?
As I stated, Tonight on Daft.ie
I bed apts in Dub 995 available
1 bed apts in Dub within rent allowance limits and acceting of RA 35

Here we go again. The govt control 50% of the private rental sector. Thats 90,000+ humans. Alot of these are ahem single mothers and couples with or without children but having kids helps you get a higher level.

There is hardly much difference between a 1bed price and 2bed price as 1beds have been marketed as for couples when in fact they have the space only for a singleton. Many LL will accept rent allowance when they do not state it in their adverts. Also, other rent allowance claimants are in long term accommodation and do not move hence the daft stats are seriously skewed.

If I as a single renter paying 1000 a mth in rent lost my job tomorrow and ended up on rent allowance, i'd be only entitled to that 529 before the means test is even applied so I certainly know how a bad deal I would get.

If the govt changed the rules tomorrow saying 1bed apts will only get a max of 529 for single people and lets say 650 for 2 people in Dublin, you'd be 100% guaranteed that rents will meet this level as I said earlier, landlords need the cash and more importantly they will not find 90,000 humans to fill the vacancies if they evict them some or all of them.

Blackjack

Darlughda wrote: »

You sure do, baby, you made the sweeping statement.

.
How very nice for you to be able to decide the rules of Internet discussion.

Darlughda wrote: »

As per my previous post. Reality check. 995 1 bed properties avail in Dublin, 35 are within RA cap limits and accept rent allowance
.

DAFT is not the only place where you can find a Rental property. There are plenty properties that are not advertised on DAFT.

Darlughda wrote: »

Ara, bollíx. There are a very small percantage of the pyjama lifestylers stigmatised in every western society, but the majority cannot get work for legitimate reasons.

Ara Bollix - there are too many of them, and there are many who simply could not be arsed.

Darlughda wrote: »

so, that works out at €346 pw which is NOT TAXED on PRSI, whereas the dole recepient like myself receives €196pw in theory, but in reality that is less than €170 after you have paid out contribution to the FULL rate of rent allowance.

I'm not sure what your point is - do you expect that someone on minimum wage should get the same amount as people who do nothing, or do you actually think it's OK that the earn a smidge more than you for putting in 160 hours of graft in a 4 week period, which works out at about 2 euros an hour when you take into account what they would be entitled to on the Dole?.
God forbid if they have to get any form of public transport to or from work, they'd be worse off than you again.

Darlughda wrote: »

Again need I quote the rates of RA available and how hard it is to find these below market rate RA accomadation with landlords who are decent enough not to be stupidly prejudiced in accepting RA?
As I stated, Tonight on Daft.ie
I bed apts in Dub 995 available
1 bed apts in Dub within rent allowance limits and acceting of RA 35

Again, DAFT isn't the only place to find a rental property.
And as Gurramonk stated - are you only taking the 35 as the ones who stated they would accept Rent allowance, or did all 960 of those you have excluded explicitly state they would not accept rent allowance?.

I'm sorry, but the country can no longer afford to pay for the priveleges that people got used to from the crazy days of the boom. There are plenty hardships for those who work for a living, it should not be any easier for those who choose not to.

senordingdong

gurramok wrote: »

The govt control 50% of the market, about 90,000+ humans. If RA was reduced tomorrow, the landlords will not find that many people to lease their properties to if ahem they refused to renew the rents at the lower rates. And if as you say that alot of them are in trouble, they will take every cent they can get.

If they get screwed, tough sh1t. They are business people and giving them borrowed money via welfare is less of a priority than feeding people on the dole for example.

Yes that is what should happen.
Do you think the govt. should stop paying out rent allowance altogether?

Based on what? I certainly do not see an avalanche of renters.

Just based on my opinion, like I said I've seen alot of them come out of the wood work in the past year or so.

Also, the rates for RA vary alot and the amount given is ultimatly up the Community Welfare Officer.

When I was on RA, the CWO gave me €320 p/m, which was just over half my rent. I was single person sharing a two bed with one other person.
CWO said it was extremely uncommon to fork out someones full rent rate.
This rate stayed constant but just before I was due to sing off, I got a letter saying the rate was being cut by about €30.


With this in mind, I had to make up the rest with my JSA, and then when I factored in utilities etc.. it cut things very thin.
I was grateful but I certainly wasn't 'living it up'.

Ortiz

Afaik single mothers get €800 p/m for a 3 bed property and €900 p/m for a 4 bed property, and from my experience there are SO many people cheating the system by saying they are single mothers when actually they have a partner living with them.

I'm not sure RA should be cut but I think each applicant should be vetted as much as possible. When applying for RA I think you should have to submit at least 5 different job applications with correspondance from the employer and everything. Those employers could then be contacted to verify the details and to make sure the applicant didn't actually turn down the job if offerred. If the applicant is granted welfare they should have to submit 3 new job applications every month or the allowance will be stopped. I know this might seems unrealistic but it's hardly that much more work for each welfare officer to carry out this procedure. I don't care that it may be annoying for people on SW to have to jump through these hoops - they should want to work and not want the rest of us to be paying for their fukcing house!

There are far too many people who are choosing to apply for RA rather than work. It is complete and utter bullsh!t in my opinion as there are people out there busting their balls and getting less than them. I'm in full time employment and the financial stress i'm under is really difficult to deal with. I'm really struggling to pay my rent and my bills yet I see people on SW who are getting 3 widescreen tvs for their house and sky digital in every room (just one example).

The Government have to regulate the applicants more closely as at the moment it really is being painted as a far easier way to live.

Obviously none of the above applies to people who can't work and I do accept that there are so many good hard working people drawing SW and I fell terribly for them, but the absolute scumbags of this earth are cheating the system and it grinds my gears like nothing else can. I don't care if they're the minority or majority but they should be stopped.

Macha

irishguy wrote: »

Sorry I meant imposing it on just owner occupiers/landlords will kill property market, if its being done it should be for all residents.

On what basis can you justify the idea that someone who doesn't own property should pay a property tax?

gurramok

senordingdong wrote: »

Yes that is what should happen.
Do you think the govt. should stop paying out rent allowance altogether?

No, there are always genuine cases. As I said in the other post, they should change the system so that 1bed apts are meant for single people so people like you can get proper accommodation rather than basing the system on the amount of humans claiming which has tipped the whole system in favour of families.

senordingdong wrote: »

Just based on my opinion, like I said I've seen alot of them come out of the wood work in the past year or so.

Also, the rates for RA vary alot and the amount given is ultimatly up the Community Welfare Officer.

When I was on RA, the CWO gave me €320 p/m, which was just over half my rent. I was single person sharing a two bed with one other person.
CWO said it was extremely uncommon to fork out someones full rent rate.
This rate stayed constant but just before I was due to sing off, I got a letter saying the rate was being cut by about €30.

With this in mind, I had to make up the rest with my JSA, and then when I factored in utilities etc.. it cut things very thin.
I was grateful but I certainly wasn't 'living it up'.

I hear ya. I would be in the same position if I lost my job tomorrow, single people are treated disgracefully by the system. And if you had savings for that rainy day, you are penalised unfairly on both counts.(rent and JSA)

senordingdong

Furthermore, I didn't like being on the dole one bit and did everything I could to get off of it asap.
I've come to the conclusion that it takes a special breed of people to be happy with this type of lifestyle.

Ortiz wrote: »

Afaik single mothers get €800 p/m for a 3 bed property and €900 p/m for a 4 bed property, and from my experience there are SO many people cheating the system by saying they are single mothers when actually they have a partner living with them.
.

I wonder if this system, in any way is accomodating the old day mentality that a mother needs to be at home all day 'raising' the children? And therefore it is ok for a single mother to live like this.

gurramok wrote:

single people are treated disgracefully by the system

I think they're better off than un-single people.
If you live with your partner and he/she is still in employment, a claimant will get nothing. That is sick imo.

gurramok

senordingdong wrote:

I think they're better off than un-single people.
If you live with your partner and he/she is still in employment, a claimant will get nothing. That is sick imo.

Its an anti-work measure alright. It should be on a sliding scale of means testing, not a blanket ban from rent allowance if your partner works or if you take up more than 30hrs work by yourself.

What I was saying that the rent level available to a single person is a disgrace as the system treats accommodation prices in favour of couples/families where their choice of accommodation is superior to what a singleton can get.

On the other hand, if a singleton bought a house by himself, the support available is equal to the support given to a buyer couple. They both get the moratorium and interest holidays if things go wrong like a job loss.

ednwireland

i always thought property taxes were paying for services (certainly in other juristictions thats the case) sewage, roads, street cleaning etc etc certainly thats what rates/polltax/council tax is designed to do. which is why the occupier (be they owner or tenant pay it)

whilst here it is being seen as a tax on an asset because somehow people who rent dont use services (now this is understandable here councils, who dont seem to provide much are, basically centrally funded apart from motor fund and business rates)

or am i missing something

am i bovvered

any logical country charges the user........
so we'll probably do the opposite

jmayo

Darlughda wrote: »

JMayo, you insist on promoting this stupid myth about rent allowance so maybe you should inform yourself to the reality of what the rent allowance rather are and what it is like to be a rent allowance tenant.

Massive rent allowance? Where on earth are you getting this info from?
The very very max for a single person renting in the Dublin area is €529 pm and for a single person sharing is €390.
...

Does it every cross your mind that the amounts being paid by the government, in other words divied up by the taxpayers like me and others, helps keep rents higher than they should be in the current market.
If taxpayers were not contributing €529pm then don't you think that landlords would have to drop their rents.
Either drop rents or have no tenant.

Darlughda wrote: »

TBH, your flagrant ignorance in your postings disgust me.

And you know what disgusts me ?
It is the fact that the normal taxpayers, are considered a sponge that can be squezzed and squezzed for every last drop, by both the ones at the bottom and the top.

You mention you have disability so fair enough.
But how many more are just leeching off the system.
I know of one landlord whose whole empire was tenants that were either so called refugees or long term unemployed.
His little empire was being funded to a large degree by the taxpayer.
Do you think that is right ?

The gas thing is a lot of the ones harping on about refugees coming here getting free accomodation are often the very ones long term leeching off the system.
Any able bodied person that could not provide valid reason why they should not have had a job between 2004 and 2007 should have been kicked off all social welfare schemes.
Instead bertie the socialist listened to some priest harp on about the vulnerable and gave nice raises.

You know who are the real vulnerable in this cocked up country ?
It is the taxpayers who earn enough to be taxed, too much to get anything free, but not enough to avail of fancy accountants and lawyers to find new ways to siphon funds off.
They get shag all except squezzed from every side.

Pabloclarkson

Not all landlords are by choice. My wife and I both had small apartments we couldn't sell - despite a year of trying. We had to buy a house because we have two small children.
Now we have two rental properties were the mortgage is 50% higher than the rents. When you deduct management fees and rental income tax and 200 a year tax on each for the council, we lose thousands.
When the property tax adds 3k next year I think we mig lose all three of our homes as we are barely coping now.
If a fianna fail politician dares call at my door I will punch him..especially as my td is lenihan