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Why would Atheists have morals?

  • 10-11-2010 4:58pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    So if you dont believe in God then I would assume that you dont believe you are going to be judged. And so there would be no consequences for your actions - so why do good? Would it not make sense that Atheists dont have morals?

    (I dont believe this but am just curious as to how ye explain morals without a God and couldnt be bothered reading the selfish gene etc)


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  • Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,238 GLaDOS
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Des Carter wrote: »
    And so there would be no consequences for your actions
    Em, yes there are

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    Em, yes there are

    So you only do good to avoid getting in trouble with the law/parents/teachers etc?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,259 Rowley Birkin QC
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    What stops believers from doing the same considering they can be absolved of their sins by saying a few our fathers?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,727 Nozebleed
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    its just a buzz word.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 Morbert
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So if you dont believe in God then I would assume that you dont believe you are going to be judged. And so there would be no consequences for your actions - so why do good? Would it not make sense that Atheists dont have morals?

    (I dont believe this but am just curious as to how ye explain morals without a God and couldnt be bothered reading the selfish gene etc)

    There are two reasons. The first is many moral principles have practical advantages. The second is there is an innate desire to be compassionate in most people, even if it is easily snuffed.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,758 Stercus Accidit
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So you only do good to avoid getting in trouble with the law/parents/teachers etc?

    Isn't god just a makey uppey version of these exact things? By this analogy theists aren't moral, they just think the ultimate power in the universe will torture them forever if they are bold, thats just fear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 MrPudding
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So if you dont believe in God then I would assume that you dont believe you are going to be judged. And so there would be no consequences for your actions - so why do good? Would it not make sense that Atheists dont have morals?

    (I dont believe this but am just curious as to how ye explain morals without a God and couldnt be bothered reading the selfish gene etc)
    What planet do you live on? First of all, there are consequences for our actions. I do not believe an imaginary sky wizard is going to judge me if I do something wrong, but I am pretty sure that a jury of my peers might.

    I am, as far as I am concerned, a fairly good person. I am generally civil to people I know and strangers. I try to get through live without making anyone elses life difficult. The reason for me doing this? I live in a society that functions better when the people in that society are trying to fcuk each other over every chance they get.

    Society works best when people have a reasonable foresight of how things are going to be. Knowing that you probably are going to be robbed abnd beaten everytime you leave the house. Knowing that when you enter into a contract it is likely to be fulfilled.

    There are countless ways being in a society where the individual is, for the most part, respected is advantagous. This is one of the reason why I am good.

    Other reason? Doing good makes me feel good and doing bad doesn't. I don't like it when people are mean to me, so I would imagine that other won't like it when I am mean to them, so I don't do it.

    I find it hard to believe that a person could actually believe that without a sky wizard people can no reason to be good. it is kind of... retarded.

    I know there are poster on the other board that have actually said that without jesus in their lives they see no reason why they would not rape, kill and steal. Scary. Here is a reason for you. It is wrong.

    MrP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 MrPudding
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So you only do good to avoid getting in trouble with the law/parents/teachers etc?
    Undoubedly part of it, but as I said, not the whole story.

    Why are theists good?

    MrP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    Morbert wrote: »
    There are two reasons. The first is many moral principles have practical advantages.

    For the individual or for society?
    Morbert wrote: »
    The second is there is an innate desire to be compassionate in most people, even if it is easily snuffed.

    I dont know. where did this desire come from? and whats its purpose? I think there is a bit when it comes to overt suffering you see in front of you, but not for lesser evils whose effects arent as obvious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 Mike 1972
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So if you dont believe in God then I would assume that you dont believe you are going to be judged. And so there would be no consequences for your actions - so why do good? Would it not make sense that Atheists dont have morals?

    So If tomorrow morning I could succesfully convince an average theist that they were wrong and there is actually no God would their reaction consist of immediately eating their own children or somesuch ?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 Jambo221
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So you only do good to avoid getting in trouble with the law/parents/teachers etc?
    There's plenty of Christians who would bend the law if they saw the opportunity and later confess and repent.

    You don't need to be of a particular creed to realize that stealing leads to repercussions for innocent people that don't deserve it, or that killing is unfathomable because of the overwhelming idea of flushing another person's life away.

    In fact, when you stop seeing your actions as being something recorded on a chalkboard that's going to be examined and wiped clean at the end of your life, you really begin to realize the consequences of choice.

    Even I'm atheist and I personally think things like abortion are wrong, it's much more self-affirming to realize morality rather than inferring it from a religion that was most likely instated to stop barbarians from cracking each others skulls open in ancient times.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    What stops believers from doing the same considering they can be absolved of their sins by saying a few our fathers?
    Isn't god just a makey uppey version of these exact things? By this analogy theists aren't moral, they just think the ultimate power in the universe will torture them forever if they are bold, thats just fear.
    MrPudding wrote: »
    .
    Why are theists good?

    This is kind of off topic - if you want to find out theist views on morality I would suggest starting a new thread in the Christian forum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 575 RockinRolla
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    Most of the great atrocities have been done in the name of religion.

    Morality doesnt come from religion - it preceeds it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 Sam Vimes
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So if you dont believe in God then I would assume that you dont believe you are going to be judged. And so there would be no consequences for your actions - so why do good? Would it not make sense that Atheists dont have morals?

    (I dont believe this but am just curious as to how ye explain morals without a God and couldnt be bothered reading the selfish gene etc)

    1. There are plenty of consequences, ones that are far more effective than a vague threat about something that might happen after you die

    2. I don't hurt people because I care about people


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 DeBunny
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    so why do good?



    Cuz my mammy said so.

    Most peoples moral compass is inherited from their parents. Mine is.

    Same as bigoted people having bigoted kids.

    It also makes practical sense. Life is a lot easier if you're not expending energy trying to murder and rape and read Kevin Myers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 Sam Vimes
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So you only do good to avoid getting in trouble with the law/parents/teachers etc?

    That is the suggestion that you're putting forward alright. Luckily atheists don't need the threat of punishment hanging over them to avoid hurting others. If an atheist doesn't hurt someone even when he knows he won't be caught it's because he is a good person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    MrPudding wrote: »
    I live in a society that functions better when the people in that society are trying to fcuk each other over every chance they get.

    Society works best when people have a reasonable foresight of how things are going to be. Knowing that you probably are going to be robbed abnd beaten everytime you leave the house. Knowing that when you enter into a contract it is likely to be fulfilled.

    Is this not why we have governments and police? if there were no laws I would guess what you described would be accurate.
    MrPudding wrote: »
    There are countless ways being in a society where the individual is, for the most part, respected is advantagous. This is one of the reason why I am good.

    Other reason? Doing good makes me feel good and doing bad doesn't. I don't like it when people are mean to me, so I would imagine that other won't like it when I am mean to them, so I don't do it.


    Could this not be summed up as selfishness - I do good cause it makes me feel good - I do good so that others will do good to me?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 Sam Vimes
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    Could this not be summed up as selfishness - I do good cause it makes me feel good - I do good so that others will do good to me?

    There is a school of thought that says that there are no unselfish acts.


    But since your question is why do atheists have morals, the important question is how is the theistic approach to morality any different?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 Zombrex
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So if you dont believe in God then I would assume that you dont believe you are going to be judged. And so there would be no consequences for your actions - so why do good? Would it not make sense that Atheists dont have morals?

    (I dont believe this but am just curious as to how ye explain morals without a God and couldnt be bothered reading the selfish gene etc)

    One word for you

    evolution

    ftw :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 Jambo221
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    Could this not be summed up as selfishness - I do good cause it makes me feel good - I do good so that others will do good to me?
    Do unto others??


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  • Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,238 GLaDOS
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    From an evolutionary point of view, people who got on as a society would be selected for naturally as it helps the survival of the society as a whole.

    Edit: Wicknight got there first :p

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    So If tomorrow morning I could succesfully convince an average theist that they were wrong and there is actually no God would their reaction consist of immediately eating their own children or somesuch ?
    Jambo221 wrote: »
    There's plenty of Christians who would bend the law if they saw the opportunity and later confess and repent.

    You don't need to be of a particular creed to realize that stealing leads to repercussions for innocent people that don't deserve it, or that killing is unfathomable because of the overwhelming idea of flushing another person's life away.

    In fact, when you stop seeing your actions as being something recorded on a chalkboard that's going to be examined and wiped clean at the end of your life, you really begin to realize the consequences of choice.

    Even I'm atheist and I personally think things like abortion are wrong, it's much more self-affirming to realize morality rather than inferring it from a religion that was most likely instated to stop barbarians from cracking each others skulls open in ancient times.
    Most of the great atrocities have been done in the name of religion.

    Morality doesnt come from religion - it preceeds it.

    Jambo221 wrote: »
    Do unto others??

    Why is religion being brought into this if you want to argue about how stupid christian morals etc are please go to the Christian forum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 888 Merrick
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    Could this not be summed up as selfishness - I do good cause it makes me feel good - I do good so that others will do good to me?

    Sure it could. Everyone is selfish in some way. Everyone likes to do things that make them feel good. Is doing good things to avoid punishment from a god or to get into heaven not just as selfish?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 Sam Vimes
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    Why is religion being brought into this if you want to argue about how stupid christian morals etc are please go to the Christian forum.

    You're asking why would atheists have morals and you're surprised that comparisons are being made to theists :confused:

    Why not ask why would anyone have morals if you aren't interested in the difference between atheists and theists?

    edit: also the "do unto others" bit is found in all manner of philosophies both in and out of religion


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    DeBunny wrote: »
    Cuz my mammy said so.

    Most peoples moral compass is inherited from their parents. Mine is.

    Same as bigoted people having bigoted kids.

    It also makes practical sense. Life is a lot easier if you're not expending energy trying to murder and rape and read Kevin Myers.

    So good and evil are relative?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 Sam Vimes
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So good and evil are relative?

    Shouting fire in a crowded theatre when there is no fire is "evil". Shouting fire when there is a fire is "good".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    You're asking why would atheists have morals and you're surprised that comparisons are being made to theists :confused:

    Why not ask why would anyone have morals if you aren't interested in the difference between atheists and theists?

    edit: also the "do unto others" bit is found in all manner of philosophies both in and out of religion

    Yes you are correct I phrased the question very poorly.

    My apologies!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 Zombrex
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    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    You're asking why would atheists have morals and you're surprised that comparisons are being made to theists :confused:

    Why not ask why would anyone have morals if you aren't interested in the difference between atheists and theists?

    edit: also the "do unto others" bit is found in all manner of philosophies both in and out of religion

    Good point.

    If God exists we all have morals because of God, so asking where atheists get their morals is irrelevant we would get them from where everyone else does (God).

    If God doesn't exist none of us have morals because of God, so asking where specifically atheists get their morals is irrelevant, we would get them from where everyone else does (evolution).

    If you ask an atheist where he gets his morals he will tell you from the same place everyone else does


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 206 Jambo221
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    Why is religion being brought into this if you want to argue about how stupid christian morals etc are please go to the Christian forum.
    First of all, you started the thread, nobody else needs to go to a different forum.

    You brought up the issue of belief in God instilling morals in people, so of course religion is going to be brought into this.

    I was merely drawing up parallels to provoke thought, I may have mentioned Christians, but I also implied any religion. Please don't start a thread and then dismiss points that are being brought up because you don't know how to deal with them.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 Sam Vimes
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    Yes you are correct I phrased the question very poorly.

    My apologies!

    Fair enough. The reality is that atheists have morals for the very same reason that theists do. Our parents, our peers, our societies in general and our evolved instincts all inform our moral sensibilities. The difference between atheists and theists is that they think that human beings need an extra metaphysical carrot and stick to keep us on the straight and narrow but we don't really, as evidenced by the fact that atheists aren't out there every day murdering people for their shoes


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    There is a school of thought that says that there are no unselfish acts.

    I would tend to agree with this I mean selfishness can often be good - for example if someone invents something that helps others he could have invented it for financial profit (selfish) but in the end it had a positive outcome.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 Sam Vimes
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    I would tend to agree with this I mean selfishness can often be good - for example if someone invents something that helps others he could have invented it for financial profit (selfish) but in the end it had a positive outcome.

    What about people who invent things and then give them away?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 Zillah
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    Surely a moral person does something because that thing is inherently good, not because they are afraid of being judged?

    In which case believing in God has nothing to do with it.

    That's just a word game though, really. There's no such thing as good and evil; there is action and consequence followed by rationalisation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 Zombrex
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    I would tend to agree with this I mean selfishness can often be good - for example if someone invents something that helps others he could have invented it for financial profit (selfish) but in the end it had a positive outcome.

    It is more fundamental than that.

    Killing yourself to help others is not technically a selfless act because you wanted to do it and thus felt at some level good about doing it.

    It is very difficult to imagine a genuinely 100% totally unselfish act. Our brains just don't work like that, it is not the way evolution has made us. Everything we do, and I mean everything, is assessed by our brains in relation to how does it effect us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    Wicknight wrote: »
    evolution

    ftw :pac:
    From an evolutionary point of view, people who got on as a society would be selected for naturally as it helps the survival of the society as a whole.

    That may explain why people within a society would have morals but it would also suggest that it would be beneficial to a society if they could eliminate all other societies - which has been attempted quite a lot.

    However war etc is seen as bad and so this doesnt fully explain morality I think.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Shouting fire in a crowded theatre when there is no fire is "evil". Shouting fire when there is a fire is "good".

    So there is a constant "Good" and "Evil"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    What about people who invent things and then give them away?

    2 possibilities :

    1) promotion - getting his product out there so that people will become aware of it and more people will buy it in the future which will increase profits (Selfish).

    2) he enjoys inventing and gets satisfaction from inventing new things and doesnt care about financial gain (still selfish)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Dades
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Atheists have the same innate morality that allows most "religious" people to pick and choose which parts of their creed to ignore, whether they realise they are doing this or not.
    Des Carter wrote: »
    So there is a constant "Good" and "Evil"?
    There will always be things we call "good" and "evil" - people just won't always agree which are which. There's no such thing as universal morality, and such terms as good and evil are human concepts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,076 bnt
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So you only do good to avoid getting in trouble with *the rest of humanity?*
    First time I've tried one of these FYP things - howzat? The answer is yes, of course.

    As I've said before: I don't have Morals but I do have Ethics. If that sounds confusing, how about defining what you mean by Morals? ;)

    You are the type of what the age is searching for, and what it is afraid it has found. I am so glad that you have never done anything, never carved a statue, or painted a picture, or produced anything outside of yourself! Life has been your art. You have set yourself to music. Your days are your sonnets.

    ―Oscar Wilde predicting Social Media, in The Picture of Dorian Gray



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 Sam Vimes
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So there is a constant "Good" and "Evil"?

    I prefer to avoid those words because it causes confusion with religious people.

    "Good" is helping others and avoiding doing harm
    "Evil" is deliberately hurting others for no overriding "good" reason.

    With those definitions it could be said that there is a constant "good" and "evil" but applying those labels to certain actions is very difficult and context dependent. The answer to whether or not a particular act is "good" or "bad" should always be "it depends"
    Des Carter wrote: »
    2 possibilities :

    1) promotion - getting his product out there so that people will become aware of it and more people will buy it in the future which will increase profits (Selfish).

    2) he enjoys inventing and gets satisfaction from inventing new things and doesnt care about financial gain (still selfish)

    If you want to classify helping people because you enjoy it as selfish then yes it's selfish but then we're back into the area where there is no such thing as an unselfish act.


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  • Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,238 GLaDOS
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Des Carter wrote: »
    That may explain why people within a society would have morals but it would also suggest that it would be beneficial to a society if they could eliminate all other societies - which has been attempted quite a lot.

    However war etc is seen as bad and so this doesnt fully explain morality I think.
    Killing a large percentage of your own species is generally a poor move in evolutionary terms

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 DeBunny
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    Des Carter wrote: »
    So good and evil are relative?

    Yes they are relative. War is "evil" however, the medical advances that have been made possible because of war have conceivably saved more lives than war has cost. Charities are good, however, when they go into a war zone they give aid to the those who commit genocide because they feel it is good or the right thing to do.

    To many people execution is "good".

    Good and evil are an entirely a man made creation. A relatively new one at that.
    I would agree completely with zilla's post.
    Some times being "evil" helps a society to advance and sometimes being "good" does the job. In my view, love and compassion tends to be more efficient than fear and hatered.


  • CMod ✭✭✭✭


    I find it bizarre that people who think "an omnipotent being might torture me, that's the only reason I don't go on a mass killing spree etc" have the nerve to assume atheists have no morals :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 liamw
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    So Des, where do you get your morals from? Leviticus or Deuteronomy?

    I'll tell you where if you like. The same place as all the rest of us, which is what allows you to cherry pick what's 'good' and 'bad' from the bible!

    One more questoin: where do these animals get their morality from?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#Examples_of_animal_altruism


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 jill_valentine
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    It sucks to be hurt or injured in any way. I understand that, and what it feels like, and do not want to be the source of a similar suffering in anybody else. On an individual level, it's an empathy thing.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 MagicMarker
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    bluewolf wrote: »
    I find it bizarre that people who think "an omnipotent being might torture me, that's the only reason I don't go on a mass killing spree etc" have the nerve to assume atheists have no morals :confused:
    I find it bizarre that people ask such questions.

    Why would atheists have morals? Hmmm, jeez let me think.....

    Why would theists have morals?
    Why would some theists be immoral?
    Why would some atheists be immoral?

    Each of these questions have the same answer. It's really not that bloody hard to understand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 Galvasean
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    Because we all secretly believe in God. There, the secet's out.
    Now hopefully no one will ever start a thread on this topic again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    so good and bad is relative?

    do you not think there are any universal good or evil for example:
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Shouting fire in a crowded theatre when there is no fire is "evil". Shouting fire when there is a fire is "good".

    and so
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I prefer to avoid those words because it causes confusion with religious people.



    "Good" is helping others and avoiding doing harm

    "Evil" is deliberately hurting others for no overriding "good" reason.



    With those definitions it could be said that there is a constant "good" and "evil" but applying those labels to certain actions is very difficult and context dependent. The answer to whether or not a particular act is "good" or "bad" should always be "it depends"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    Killing a large percentage of your own species is generally a poor move in evolutionary terms

    You would think that but if this is the case then why has there been so many wars in the past?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 720 Des Carter
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    DeBunny wrote: »
    Yes they are relative. War is "evil" however, the medical advances that have been made possible because of war have conceivably saved more lives than war has cost. Charities are good, however, when they go into a war zone they give aid to the those who commit genocide because they feel it is good or the right thing to do.

    To many people execution is "good".

    Good and evil are an entirely a man made creation. A relatively new one at that.
    I would agree completely with zilla's post.
    Some times being "evil" helps a society to advance and sometimes being "good" does the job. In my view, love and compassion tends to be more efficient than fear and hatered.

    So in your opinion killing, maiming and rapeing people isnt wrong - just unhelpful to society?


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