Farm payment public database taken down - victory for the large IFA farmer

andrewdeerpark

Old Link:

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/agri-f...ben_search.jsp

Gives a server error.

Due to an EU court ruling the EU / Irish Government farm payments check-up database is taken down.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/details-of-cap-payments-to-farmers-private-says-court-2413760.html

IFA jubilant as their top brass (all large farmers who know the subsidy payment system inside out) can now go on the poor mouth again plus they can continue to make mugs of the small farmer "foot solders" they organise when CAP is threatened.

The big losers here are the small farmers struggling for existence as transparency showed what a bad deal they were getting for their protest, and the inequality of the CAP payment system, plus the taxpayer.

Amazing the speed of the reaction from the department of agriculture on this topic, we as a country break EU rulings / laws all the time however this one was "fixed" immediately. Unlike say us pumping RAW sewage into the river and oceans in blatant violation of EU directives!

Big farmer IFA, department of agriculture all in bed together plus the low key media reaction to the story, everyone in the cosy system just wants to return to "normal"; time for the small farmer and ordinary taxpayer to speak up and demand transparency and the return of this vital information that exposes the crook and inequality in agriculture.

johngalway

I'm a small, small, smalllllllll farmer, and I'm happy details have been taken down.

whelan1

i am delighted it was taken down , i am a medium sized farmer but why should every tom , dick and harry down the road be able to see our sfp , we dont get to see their income online

5live

Point of information. It was a german farmer i believe who took EU to court as he considered it sensitive information ,if i remember right. How that can be considered a victory for big farmers . How you can accuse the government of colluding with IFA to take it down. Quite frankly, your information on the subject. It only takes a few minutes to search on google or yahoo or whatever you are having yourself. Just because it is an anonomous forum doesnt mean you can just fly in with ZERO information and make accusations that cannot be substatiated. When you have something of importance to say call back:mad:. My apologies to anyone offended by my post but bloody hell:eek:

Min

The IFA president can now argue away why the present payment structure should be kept, he was getting €60k plus a year.
Somehow I think he was thinking of himself rather than those who don't get a decent payment which is based on a flawed system.

andrewdeerpark

Min wrote: »

The IFA president can now argue away why the present payment structure should be kept, he was getting €60k plus a year.
Somehow I think he was thinking of himself rather than those who don't get a decent payment which is based on a flawed system.

Well said perfectly illustrating my point.

As for flying in with acquisitions of collusion between the dept of agriculture and the IFA; the EU ruling was yesterday the site was down that evening; now that is from our speedy efficient public service!

That is enough circumstantial evidence for me, as the usual protocol is for the dept to have a meeting, taking days to organise, then liasing with the attorney general, more days and weeks, then another meeting and then possibly a decision.

No such protocol on this occasion.

Interesting to see if the UK payments database is also taken down!

Oh sorry after google it seems to be working fine:

Link below.

http://cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/

whelan1

sorry i might be a bit thick here but it was GERMAN farmer who took the case not the ifa as i understand it

bbam

This should be considered progress rather than a win or loss for anyone, there was no need for this sensitive information to be made public in the first place..

5live

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Well said perfectly illustrating my point.

As for flying in with acquisitions of collusion between the dept of agriculture and the IFA; the EU ruling was yesterday the site was down that evening; now that is from our speedy efficient public service!

That is enough circumstantial evidence for me, as the usual protocol is for the dept to have a meeting, taking days to organise, then liasing with the attorney general, more days and weeks, then another meeting and then possibly a decision.

No such protocol on this occasion.

Interesting to see if the UK payments database is also taken down!

Oh sorry after google it seems to be working fine:

Link below.

http://cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/

The case was heard months ago and decided month ago. It wasnt any great surprise. Why dont you post your earnings for last year here and then we are all on the same page?:D

andrewdeerpark

5live wrote: »

The case was heard months ago and decided month ago. It wasnt any great surprise. Why dont you post your earnings for last year here and then we are all on the same page?:D

Only publicised now.

I am a private sector earner (unlike Pat Kenny and grant aided Farmers) entitled to privacy. You take public money that's the deal public transparency.

Anyway if its a pittance whats the beef. You are protecting the cosy 50K plus farmers (small few) with this privacy worry.

I would like the department to publicise their reasoning for its removal.

The nosey have seen all they want to see at this stage now anyway.
Any chance,this German will take a case against google earth streetview next?

andrewdeerpark

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Only publicised now.

I am a private sector earner (unlike Pat Kenny and grant aided Farmers) entitled to privacy. You take public money that the deal public transparency.

Au contraire,As a citizen of this country,I demand the right to know to the penny,how much tax you pay and what reliefs you use.

Same transparency.
Whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

andrewdeerpark

Deleted User wrote: »

Au contraire,As a citizen of this country,I demand the right to know to the penny,how much tax you pay and what reliefs you use.

Same transparency.
Whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

You argument is flawed and point does not follow. Private sector is market forces with no guaranteed income or job as we see with our long dole queues.

Subsidised and public sector is not exposed in the same manner.

bbam

5live wrote: »

Why dont you post your earnings for last year here and then we are all on the same page?:D

That was my first thought...

But then that's just for nosy people who have nothing better to do and begrudge other people no matter what they are doing, even if they themselves have no idea what they are talking about..

andrewdeerpark

bbam wrote: »

That was my first thought...

But then that's just for nosy people who have nothing better to do and begrudge other people no matter what they are doing, even if they themselves have no idea what they are talking about..

What is escaping almost every poster here and needs to be reemphasized is that approximately 20% of the farmers get 80% of the subsidies.

Keeping the other 80% in ignorance is what it’s all about, not privacy worries. I assume several of the posters here are in the 20% category good job folks!

andrewdeerpark

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

You argument is flawed and point does not follow. Private sector is market forces with no guaranteed income or job as we see with our long dole queues.

Subsidised and public sector is not exposed in the same manner.

Farming is also a private sector with no guaranteed income.
The SFP is not guaranteed.One inspection and you can lose a lot of it.Nobody does it perfectly such is the malaise of rules and regulations.
Now can I see all those reliefs you are using,that became available to you over the years because the irish government "could afford them" as a consequence of this country over the years drawing down billions in EU funds to build roads,sewage schemes etc etc that we would otherwise have had to pay out our own money for.

Incidently if you are an irish taxpayer,not one cent of your taxes has ever gone into the sfp or it's predecessors as we,Ireland, have always been a net beneficiary of EU funds.

So come on let us examine your tax profile.
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Transparency and the like.

andrewdeerpark

Indeed farming is a private sector endeavor heavily subsidized with both direct payments and restrictions of entry from the competing 3rd world into the EU market. So it’s a distorted market (yes I accept a pure market is rare).

And yes the SFP is EU funded however schemes such as REPS are not or only partially.

The relief’s I am using, as you are no doubt yourself are available for all to see on revenue.ie as an ordinary private sector worker earning the industrial wage, I do not have major benefit from any “superstar” relief’s (non residency, film investment, director pensions) so that is a bit of a red herring the only applies to the likes of Denis O'Brien, JP MacManus.

All other public payments are on public record these include:

- TD’s and Ministers
- Welfare recipients
- University lecturers and managers
- Public sector employees; teachers, guards, army
- Industries receiving subsidies
- Semi-state bodies, ESB, Bord na Mona (from the chairman to ordinary worker)

So you justify special treatment for the farmers. As for those roads that were built that is another story where several lucky farmers made an initial killing only for their friendly bank manager soaking them in bank shares, as I said another issue.

As I said last time what publication did was expose the sham that is CAP, it educated the small farmer to the bad deal he is getting.

What is needed is a fair equitable, transparent subsidy system.

pakalasa

It's like groundhog day, isn't it.:(
Every few weeks or so somone hijacks this forum ranting about farming subsidies.

Farm Subsidies = cheap food for you, the consumer.

BeeDI

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

What is escaping almost every poster here and needs to be reemphasized is that approximately 20% of the farmers get 80% of the subsidies.

Keeping the other 80% in ignorance is what it’s all about, not privacy worries. I assume several of the posters here are in the 20% category good job folks!

Ah, here we are quoting the old 80 / 20 rule. The redoubtable Pareto's pinciple.
Get over it mate. Pareto's law applies to absolutely everthing in life and in the universe.
Even to the point where 80% of all sh1te talked, is talked by 20% of the people.
No prizes for guessing which segment of the above you fall into.
Your'e not Fintan O Toole by any chance:rolleyes:

andrewdeerpark

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Indeed farming is a private sector endeavor heavily subsidized with both direct payments and restrictions of entry from the competing 3rd world into the EU market. So it’s a distorted market (yes I accept a pure market is rare).

Would you like your job to be exported to the third world too? They could probably do with that aswell...

And yes the SFP is EU funded however schemes such as REPS are not or only partially.

Reps is an environmental scheme where farmers are paid to farm in a certain way.They don't have to do it

The relief’s I am using, as you are no doubt yourself are available for all to see on revenue.ie as an ordinary private sector worker earning the industrial wage, I do not have major benefit from any “superstar” relief’s (non residency, film investment, director pensions) so that is a bit of a red herring the only applies to the likes of Denis O'Brien, JP MacManus.

The extent of the financial benefit you as an individual get from them are not.
So lets be seeing that please.
We know the totals just as we always knew the totals for the sfp.

As I said last time what publication did was expose the sham that is CAP, it educated the small farmer to the bad deal he is getting.

What is needed is a fair equitable, transparent subsidy system.

Frankly,that reads like an unnecessarally held prejudiced view in my opinion.
The reason why some SFP payments are big is simply because the farming operation being paid is big.
All entitlements were earned in the same way relative to the operation.
the only difference is size and of course the amount of work that went into attaining the larger size.
If you want to militate against size in private enterprise,then the communist party is the way to go,good luck with that.

bbam

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

All other public payments are on public record these include:

- Welfare recipients
- University lecturers and managers
- Public sector employees; teachers, guards, army

I think you'll find that the general scales are available but not what a specific individual receives..

Where are the welfare numbers, per particular person for family income suppliment..

Please direct me to the list of teachers in each school in each county and their exact specific individual income..

You can't because you're argument is a sham and mis-informed..

I'd go as far as to say you're trolling this section of boards with no meaningful purpose to your posts other than to insult a whole section of the community and see what response you get..

John_F

im sure that most members who have a connection with agriculture would much rather see a realistic price being paid for produce than tax payer money. However we do not live in that world and live in a world of cheap food, so if farmers are not being subsidised and receiving a poor price, 'where is the beef' then as you say??

The SFP should have been caped or kept payments related to production

andrewdeerpark

John_F wrote: »

The SFP should have been caped or kept payments related to production

Exactly my point from the beginning.

bbam wrote: »

I think you'll find that the general scales are available but not what a specific individual receives..

Where are the welfare numbers, per particular person for family income suppliment..

Please direct me to the list of teachers in each school in each county and their exact specific individual income..

You can't because you're argument is a sham and mis-informed..

I'd go as far as to say you're trolling this section of boards with no meaningful purpose to your posts other than to insult a whole section of the community and see what response you get..

For welfare just get the payments tables and do the maths the rates are there.

And yes exact to the decimal point details on lower civil servants are not available however all high earning civil servants are; the Irish Times just had an article yesterday with the top 10 paid public servants in the education sector to the penny.

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you like your job to be exported to the third world too? They could probably do with that aswell...

Reps is an environmental scheme where farmers are paid to farm in a certain way.They don't have to do it

The extent of the financial benefit you as an individual get from them are not.
So lets be seeing that please.
We know the totals just as we always knew the totals for the sfp.


Frankly,that reads like an unnecessarally held prejudiced view in my opinion.
The reason why some SFP payments are big is simply because the farming operation being paid is big.
All entitlements were earned in the same way relative to the operation.
the only difference is size and of course the amount of work that went into attaining the larger size.
If you want to militate against size in private enterprise,then the communist party is the way to go,good luck with that.

We are loosing to low cost economies already look at the unemployment figure. While some protection is justified fair and balanced trade is what the 3rd world want not us sending over a donation in a Trocaire box once a year.

Do we not have communism already; bank guarantee, NAMA, developer bailouts the IMF at the door. Everyone wants a bailout now.....

No way should any farmer regardless of size get a subsidy in excess of 100K while other smaller ones go to the wall, or do you want to reverse the original land acts that created so much small farm holdings 3 /4 generations ago back to the English landlord countryside.

Remember every farmer lost to the industry is a reduction in clout and power but the farm lobby seems to thick to see that and only interested in preserving the income of those politically at the top of IFA, subsidies should be all about preserving the existing numbers.

andrewdeerpark

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

We are loosing to low cost economies already look at the unemployment figure.

Yeah but why not donate your job aswell which is what you are asking people here to do.
There are 2 reasons for subsidies,cheap food for you and to ensure it's produced locally.
I think most people would prefer to get a fair market price for the product but they don't.

While some protection is justified fair and balanced trade is what the 3rd world want not us sending over a donation in a Trocaire box once a year.

We don't have fair trade in food in Europe though even with subsidies,so take your arguments to the large multinationals like Tesco who made money from selling milk last year whilst farmers made losses.

Do we not have communism already; bank guarantee, NAMA, developer bailouts the IMF at the door. Everyone wants a bailout now.....

Your definition of communism is somewhat awry.
We can sack the people that got us into that mess and move on,hopefully learning a lesson.

No way should any farmer regardless of size get a subsidy in excess of 100K while other smaller ones go to the wall, or do you want to reverse the original land acts that created so much small farm holdings 3 /4 generations ago back to the English landlord countryside.

Speak for yourself.
The bigger subsidies are a bonus on the hard and it is hard,work that goes into bigger production.
The same relative proportion on a profitable farm is applied to making the produce.
I know this,everyone who is a farmer here knows this.
You can have 3 farms on my road all dairy farming but 2 of them through their own hard graft have enterprises twice and three times the size of one of them and sfp's to match.
The end game there is that those two bigger farms are doing exactly what EU policy wants,ie delivering twice as much local produce cheaply.
They are also doing what the non EU farmers aren't and at a high cost and thats a thing called traceability.

Remember every farmer lost to the industry is a reduction in clout and power but the farm lobby seems to thick to see that and only interested in preserving the income of those politically at the top of IFA, subsidies should be all about preserving the existing numbers.

You know,you'd do yourself a favour by taking off the prejudice coated glasses and listen to the views of real farmers on this forum.
What they would prefer is to be paid a fair whack of what the consumer is charged for their produce.
It seems simpler to subsidize the producer than to tackle the thorny issue of multiple power though.
I'd advise you take that angle to the politicians and lose the prejudiced wrong way that you are looking at this question.

andrewdeerpark

Deleted User wrote: »

Your definition of communism is somewhat awry.
We can sack the people that got us into that mess and move on,hopefully learning a lesson.

Speak for yourself.
The bigger subsidies are a bonus on the hard and it is hard,work that goes into bigger production.
The same relative proportion on a profitable farm is applied to making the produce.
I know this,everyone who is a farmer here knows this.
You can have 3 farms on my road all dairy farming but 2 of them through their own hard graft have enterprises twice and three times the size of one of them and sfp's to match.
The end game there is that those two bigger farms are doing exactly what EU policy wants,ie delivering twice as much local produce cheaply.
They are also doing what the non EU farmers aren't and at a high cost and thats a thing called traceability.

You know,you'd do yourself a favour by taking off the prejudice coated glasses and listen to the views of real farmers on this forum.
What they would prefer is to be paid a fair whack of what the consumer is charged for their produce.
It seems simpler to subsidize the producer than to tackle the thorny issue of multiple power though.
I'd advise you take that angle to the politicians and lose the prejudiced wrong way that you are looking at this question.

Communism - We can sack them but not unwind the damage done easily.

Large Holdings - Surely its better to have 6 families instead of one big holding supporting 1 family (maybe labourers working for the large holding) however you are still talking of undoing the emancipation of farmers by the English from the landlord / tenant relationship.

Produce pricing - I am no fan of Tesco however the farmer lost control of pricing that day they sold out the co-op movement to large plcs (shareholder profit based of which they may have holdings) and amalgamations. Now they have no control of pricing and are whining. The best method is a fair price for produce the original aims of the CO-OP movement founded by Charles Stuart Parnell, farmers lost sight of that in the 80's.

Birdnuts

pakalasa wrote: »

It's like groundhog day, isn't it.:(
Every few weeks or so somone hijacks this forum ranting about farming subsidies.

Farm Subsidies = cheap food for you, the consumer.

Unfortunatly most of the savings go into the back pocket of the likes of Tesco rather then the consumer:( - I don't think big farmers really care cos its the small man, whether consumer/farmer that suffers the most:mad:

ihatetractors

To Andrewdeerpark.
As a young farmer from a small holding, i am happy that the SFP has been taken down. And yes i think Cap should be capped, or at least severely reduced reduced past a certain point. But i think this bashing of the ifa is serving no one.

andrewdeerpark

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Large Holdings - Surely its better to have 6 families instead of one big holding supporting 1 family (maybe labourers working for the large holding) however you are still talking of undoing the emancipation of farmers by the English from the landlord / tenant relationship.

Not at all.Land has to be bought for theses bigger operations and the price of them earned.The seller pockets the price of the land and has made the conscious decision to go and do something else.
In a free emancipated country,these decisions are made by the people who own the land.

Produce pricing - I am no fan of Tesco however the farmer lost control of pricing that day they sold out the co-op movement to large plcs (shareholder profit based of which they may have holdings) and amalgamations. Now they have no control of pricing and are whining. The best method is a fair price for produce the original aims of the CO-OP movement founded by Charles Stuart Parnell, farmers lost sight of that in the 80's.

That actually has little to do with it.
The large plc food companies in Ireland are still majority owned by the farmer but they are no match for the financial clout of the large multinational supermarkets one of which takes something like 60% of one of the plc's entire milk production for instance.
Farmers still have to tend to their animals,milk their cows and sow their produce.
They cannot strike/stop doing that or their business will be ruined.
It's them that are in the rocky hard part of the equation.
All the multiples have to do is take advantage.
The multiples of course provide tens of thousands of jobs in every country they are in,which is probably why they aren't touched and subsidies are the route taken.Thats the dilemma.

bbam

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

And yes exact to the decimal point details on lower civil servants are not available however all high earning civil servants are; the Irish Times just had an article yesterday with the top 10 paid public servants in the education sector to the penny.

So you're previous statment about these being available just as farm payments were available was incorrect at best and more probably an intentional omission of the truth...

In addition the information available for the 10 individuals was attained through freedom if information legislation where a person must apply and pay for the information.. Quite different to Tom, Dick and Harry loking it up on the web to be nosey... mostly Dicks I'd expect

andrewdeerpark

Deleted User wrote: »

Not at all.Land has to be bought for theses bigger operations and the price of them earned.The seller pockets the price of the land and has made the conscious decision to go and do something else.
In a free emancipated country,these decisions are made by the people who own the land.
That actually has little to do with it.
The large plc food companies in Ireland are still majority owned by the farmer but they are no match for the financial clout of the large multinational supermarkets one of which takes something like 60% of one of the plc's entire milk production for instance.
Farmers still have to tend to their animals,milk their cows and sow their produce.
They cannot strike/stop doing that or their business will be ruined.
It's them that are in the rocky hard part of the equation.
All the multiples have to do is take advantage.
The multiples of course provide tens of thousands of jobs in every country they are in,which is probably why they aren't touched and subsidies are the route taken.Thats the dilemma.

Taking Tesco as an example (and since they are a plc) their most profitable 2 markets in the world are 1) South Korea 2) Ireland.

Seems these farmer owned plc's you are talking about are not doing to good negotiating prices with Tesco. We cannot know on Dunnes, Lidl and Aldi as these are all secretive private companies.

Changing things a bit here at what CAP / EU subsidy level should the amount be publicised (as before); over 100K, 80K, 50K or should all levels of payment remain secretive?

Birdnuts

:mad::mad::mad:

Deleted User wrote: »

Speak for yourself.
The bigger subsidies are a bonus on the hard and it is hard,work that goes into bigger production.
The same relative proportion on a profitable farm is applied to making the produce.
I know this,everyone who is a farmer here knows this.
You can have 3 farms on my road all dairy farming but 2 of them through their own hard graft have enterprises twice and three times the size of one of them and sfp's to match.
The end game there is that those two bigger farms are doing exactly what EU policy wants,ie delivering twice as much local produce cheaply.
They are also doing what the non EU farmers aren't and at a high cost and thats a thing called traceability.

.

Are you happy the likes of Greencore, Larry Goodman etc. are cleaning up on subsidies too compared to the small farmer??:rolleyes:

I find this:http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fnational-news%2Fcap-generous-farm-payments-at-40000-say-meps-76411.html&ei=c_jaTJnGKo7O4Aaq7KjsCA&usg=AFQjCNFIWkazFQtJSkCf0rqAUYwX1cdtbQ

as repulsive as bailing out the vermin in our banks:mad:

andrewdeerpark

Birdnuts wrote: »

Are you happy the likes of Greencore, Larry Goodman etc. are cleaning up on subsidies too compared to the small farmer??:rolleyes:

I find this:http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fnational-news%2Fcap-generous-farm-payments-at-40000-say-meps-76411.html&ei=c_jaTJnGKo7O4Aaq7KjsCA&usg=AFQjCNFIWkazFQtJSkCf0rqAUYwX1cdtbQ

as repulsive as bailing out the vermin in our banks

Not forgetting Charlie Haughey recalling the dail to enact examiner legislation to save his hide (Larry Goodman) all those years ago... them what happened since, all the small butchers and Abattoirs closed by regulation in the interm creating a beef monopoly.

andrewdeerpark

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Taking Tesco as an example (and since they are a plc) their most profitable 2 markets in the world are 1) South Korea 2) Ireland.

Seems these farmer owned plc's you are talking about are not doing to good negotiating prices with Tesco. We cannot know on Dunnes, Lidl and Aldi as these are all secretive private companies.

Go talk to any of the farmers on the advisory councils of these plc's and co-ops who are in regular touch with management and price negotiators and you will get a feel for what they are up against.
Did you read at all my comment on farmers not being able to strike?

Changing things a bit here at what CAP / EU subsidy level should the amount be publicised (as before); over 100K, 80K, 50K or should all levels of payment remain secretive?

I wouldn't publish any of it.
If the producer has earned the right to be at the level they are at,then fair play to them,just like you've earned the right to be at whatever level you are at in your career without me inquiring into your tax affairs.

birdnuts wrote:

Are you happy the likes of Greencore, Larry Goodman etc. are cleaning up on subsidies too compared to the small farmer??

I'm not surprised that there would be a few diverse opinions among farmers here,I'd expect that.
However all sfp's were generated through nothing other than the ingenuity of the enterprises owner/family and people working on them.

Getting angry about the size of them is actually hard leftism.It's a denial of peoples rights to progress themselves.
I don't care who they are or what they've done elsewhere,that can be judged in a different arena.
Peoples rights to progress themselves and the awards they get,they are welcome to in my opinion-like that guy in the aib add with the big herd that he has the passion for making even bigger,no doubt with his sfp and whatever replaces it in future factored in.
I have the same view for example on similar comments about Bill cullens empire benefiting from the car scrapage scheme,a big businessman benefiting from low corporation tax or the op of this thread having low taxes for a decade due to the EU funding this countries infrastructure.

Birdnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

Getting angry about the size of them is actually hard leftism.It's a denial of peoples rights to progress themselves.
I don't care who they are or what they've done elsewhere,that can be judged in a different arena.
Peoples rights to progress themselves and the awards they get,they are welcome to in my opinion-like that guy in the aib add with the big herd that he has the passion for making even bigger,no doubt with his sfp and whatever replaces it in future factored in.
I have the same view for example on similar comments about Bill cullens empire benefiting from the car scrapage scheme,a big businessman benefiting from low corporation tax or the op of this thread having low taxes for a decade due to the EU funding this countries infrastructure.

Oh please - that reads as a justification for crony capitalism/corporatism, the very thing that has us in the sh*t we're in.

PS: Are you Peter Sutherland??

andrewdeerpark

Deleted User wrote: »

Go talk to any of the farmers on the advisory councils of these plc's and co-ops who are in regular touch with management and price negotiators and you will get a feel for what they are up against.
Did you read at all my comment on farmers not being able to strike?

Organisations like OPEC come to mind as a strike mechanism, its that these boards and advisory councils are not talking to each other and setting the price. It can be done just laziness and fear (may also be illegal but hey hello money is illegal and goes on) is all that is stopping them. Cut tesco's or dunnes milk for a week and get all suppliers on board including UK ones, I doubt they will go to France, and see what happens, it could be done.

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't publish any of it.
If the producer has earned the right to be at the level they are at,then fair play to them,just like you've earned the right to be at whatever level you are at in your career without me inquiring into your tax affairs.I'm not surprised that there would be a few diverse opinions among farmers here,I'd expect that.
However all sfp's were generated through nothing other than the ingenuity of the enterprises owner/family and people working on them.

Lets follow that argument through, so shall we have no more disclosure of higher public service pay; ministers, RTE stars, SEMI-state boards, etc, what do we have: a right wing fascist state. This is what I cannot get over farmers they never seem want to negotiate a middle ground. Without some disclosure market forces will crush the rest ... but then again that seems your motto.

Deleted User wrote: »

Getting angry about the size of them is actually hard leftism.It's a denial of peoples rights to progress themselves.
I don't care who they are or what they've done elsewhere,that can be judged in a different arena.
Peoples rights to progress themselves and the awards they get,they are welcome to in my opinion-like that guy in the aib add with the big herd that he has the passion for making even bigger,no doubt with his sfp and whatever replaces it in future factored in.
I have the same view for example on similar comments about Bill cullens empire benefiting from the car scrapage scheme,a big businessman benefiting from low corporation tax or the op of this thread having low taxes for a decade due to the EU funding this countries infrastructure.

The strong shall survive and the weak shall perish, Oh except when the strong and well connected get in difficulty then a bailout is required: bank guarantee, NAMA, Larry Goodman examinership, and who shall foot the bill the ordinary peasants.

I'm not Fintan O'Toole (as one poster suggested) however you have to accept your simplistic market forces theory will never work in good olde corrupt Ireland.

andrewdeerpark

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Organisations like OPEC come to mind as a strike mechanism, its that these boards and advisory councils are not talking to each other and setting the price. It can be done just laziness and fear (may also be illegal but hey hello money is illegal and goes on) is all that is stopping them. Cut tesco's or dunnes milk for a week and get all suppliers on board including UK ones, I doubt they will go to France, and see what happens, it could be done.

If such action was possible it would have happened by now.
British farmers would not cooperate and their supplies would come flooding in.
Blockades are illegal and have been tried.

Lets follow that argument through, so shall we have no more disclosure of higher public service pay; ministers, RTE stars, SEMI-state boards, etc, what do we have: a right wing fascist state. This is what I cannot get over farmers they never seem want to negotiate a middle ground. Without some disclosure market forces will crush the rest ... but then again that seems your motto.

It's very easy to work out what a farm earns by the way by looking at the herd size/crops grown.
I had a rough idea of most of my neighbours sfp's before other people started to tell me what they saw on that site.
It's the specefics thats personal just like your salary.
To answer your rather oblique comparison,farmers do not work for the government,they work for themselves.
I don't get the interest,your interest, in the actual particular amounts that the biggest of them receive given that what they do is as very specialised as what I do in that field pardon the pun,it's just that they do it better,bigger,stronger fastest.
Yes I am a believer in market forces,if you aren't,sorry we part company on that one.
You either are or you aren't.
(I'd have let the banks in trouble fail)

The strong shall survive and the weak shall perish, Oh except when the strong and well connected get in difficulty then a bailout is required: bank guarantee, NAMA, Larry Goodman examinership, and who shall foot the bill the ordinary peasants.

I'm not Fintan O'Toole (as one poster suggested) however you have to accept your simplistic market forces theory will never work in good olde corrupt Ireland.

Birdnuts wrote: »

Oh please - that reads as a justification for crony capitalism/corporatism, the very thing that has us in the sh*t we're in.

PS: Are you Peter Sutherland??

Those are just rants ,I've no interest in engaging with rants.I'd rather go back to my x-box and let james bond kill a few more spies with me at the controler.
It's more productive and infinitely more enjoyable.

5live

And how accurate are the figures published anyway. Due to mapping fiasco a few years ago i got paid 2 years SFP in one year and it was published as my yearly payments. My neighbours(non farming) could tell me all about the thousands i was getting but Dept refused to show correct figure. You are boring me andy dear son. Have you nobody else to annoy? Can i recommend the thunderdome to you? This reeks of baiting and i am sorry i even opened it not to mind posted on it. Goodbye:cool: