Ex Anglo Officials witholding Files...oh, thats ok

Liam Byrne

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1109/breaking51.html

The judge was told that the inquiry has been delayed by the fact Anglo does not have the passwords necessary to access some specific password protected or encrypted documents and the failure of certain former staff members to hand these passwords over.

Given the damage that Anglo has done this should be considered treason.

Is Guantanemo Bay still open ? Apparently the flights go through Shannon.

How the HELL can anyone get away with "refusing" to supply the required info for the biggest Garda investigation ever ?

gleep

This should shock me, but it doesn't.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/ex-anglo-officials-refuse-to-reveal-file-codes-136021.html

Ex Anglo officials have continuously refused to give Gardai passwords to access files needed to conduct their investigation. It seems the courts will decide in APRIL whether or not they'll be let away with this.

If this was me refusing to co-operate and witholding crucial evidence from gardai, investigating a minor offence I bet I'd have had the book thrown at me long ago. But when it's "insiders" who have bankrupt the country, the most devestating criminals in the history of the state, they get the time to stall. And they'll likely get away with it.

I say hang flog the Bastards.

Setun

Can't say I'm surprised either.

Garda: So Mr Fitzpatrick, can I have that password for that folder named "CONTROVERSIAL ACTIVITY".
Fitzpatrick: Hmmm... nah.
Garda: Ah go on.
Fitzpatrick: Nope.
Garda: Right so, best be off then. Bye!

danbohan

Daddio wrote: »

Can't say I'm surprised either.

Garda: So Mr Fitzpatrick, can I have that password for that folder named "CONTROVERSIAL ACTIVITY".
Fitzpatrick: Hmmm... nah.
Garda: Ah go on.
Fitzpatrick: Nope.
Garda: Right so, best be off then. Bye!

no , it was like this

Garda: So Mr Fitzpatrick, can I have that password for that folder named "CONTROVERSIAL ACTIVITY".
Fitzpatrick: Hmmm... nah.
Garda: Ah go on.
Fitzpatrick: No you dont want see it
Garda: why?
fitzpatrick : because it has the fake p60s you and your friends provided to buy that rental in rathmines
garda : Right so, best be off then. Bye

gleep

danbohan wrote: »

no , it was like this

Garda: So Mr Fitzpatrick, can I have that password for that folder named "CONTROVERSIAL ACTIVITY".
Fitzpatrick: Hmmm... nah.
Garda: Ah go on.
Fitzpatrick: No you dont want see it
Garda: why?
fitzpatrick : because it has the fake p60s you and your friends provided to buy that rental in rathmines
garda : Right so, best be off then. Bye

Tea drinker

Don't the guards have password cracking facilities? I thought in a well known Law enforcement agency a section would have access to Manufacturer secrets.

Scofflaw

Tea drinker wrote: »

Don't the guards have password cracking facilities? I thought in a well known Law enforcement agency a section would have access to Manufacturer secrets.

Encryption software doesn't usually contain a 'backdoor', so there would be little option but "brute force" guessing the passwords. With any decent choice of password, that could take a long time.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ednwireland

Gardaí investigate 'deleted accounts'

TWO FORMER senior figures at Anglo Irish Bank are under investigation for allegedly lodging money on deposit in Anglo offshore accounts before withdrawing it and then trying to delete all record of the accounts.

The Irish Times has learned the new management team at the bank became aware of the deleted accounts and began gathering evidence, which has now been passed on to gardaí.

The Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation is investigating the matter and the two former executives have been contacted by detectives. Sources said the sums of money lodged to the accounts were significant.

The accounts were held in Anglo’s overseas operations. Sources said the suspect activities occurred in recent years.

Gardaí are investigating if the monies were generated from activities that were never declared to Revenue or if there was another reason why the accounts were emptied and erased.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/1110/1224283024513.html

anglo just seems like it was an extension of the brown envelope culture obviousley this is why its been maintained as an ongoing business instead of been closed down and thouroughly ivestigated for criminality

although they do finally seem tobe getting to something, but i hope the directors do jail time for this, even iif its just for obstructing the gardai in the case of the encrypted files

sensibleken

I heard of this thing before called comtempt of court

20Cent

The password is
Irelandlol

Nijmegen

Our 'leaders' did a great job providing a strong legal framework to ensure the Gardai can get a warrant and compell someone to open their computer files the same way they can just get a warrant to search your house.

A country run by either very stupid or very intelligent people.

Setun

Scofflaw wrote:

Encryption software doesn't usually contain a 'backdoor', so there would be little option but "brute force" guessing the passwords. With any decent choice of password, that could take a long time.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Jesus, you mean there's some poor sod sitting there working his way through the alphabet?

Or did they write a program that would automatically input passwords?

:pac:

ardmacha

If the Prime Minster of the country can go to court and "not recall" things. Then someone in Anglo can "not recall" the password.

A lot of people can genuinely not recall their passwords!

There is no law that forces you to be helpful to the Gardai, otherwise it would be easy to lock up scumbags.

Scofflaw

Daddio wrote: »

Jesus, you mean there's some poor sod sitting there working his way through the alphabet?

Or did they write a program that would automatically input passwords?

:pac:

There's a variety of the latter. But if you use a proper password - containing upper and lower-case letters, numbers, and common symbols (question marks etc), then the length of time to crack the password looks like the below:

Length |Combinations |Class A |Class B |Class C |Class D |Class E |Class F
2 |9,216 |Instant |Instant |Instant |Instant |Instant |Instant
3 |884,736 |88½ Secs |9 Secs |Instant |Instant |Instant |Instant
4 |85 Million |2¼ Hours |14 Mins |1½ Mins |8½ Secs |Instant |Instant
5 |8 Billion |9½ Days |22½ Hours |2¼ Hours |13½ Mins |1¼ Mins |8 Secs
6 |782 Billion |2½ Years |90 Days |9 Days |22 Hours |2 Hours |13 Mins
7 |75 Trillion |238 Years |24 Years |2½ Years |87 Days |8½ Days |20 Hours
8 |7.2 Quadrillion |22,875 Years |2,287 Years |229 Years |23 Years |2¼ Years |83½ Days

The "Class A" etc indicates the type of computer you can throw at the problem:

A. 10,000 Passwords/sec
Typical for recovery of Microsoft Office passwords on a Pentium 100

B. 100,000 Passwords/sec
Typical for recovery of Windows Password Cache (.PWL Files) passwords on a Pentium 100

C. 1,000,000 Passwords/sec
Typical for recovery of ZIP or ARJ passwords on a Pentium 100

D. 10,000,000 Passwords/sec

Fast PC, Dual Processor PC.

E. 100,000,000 Passwords/sec

Workstation, or multiple PC's working together.

F. 1,000,000,000 Passwords/sec
Typical for medium to large scale distributed computing, Supercomputers.

So a password like "B33r&Mug" could easily take a couple of years for the Gardai to crack - I somehow doubt they have access to 83 days of super-computer time.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nody

Scofflaw wrote: »

Encryption software doesn't usually contain a 'backdoor', so there would be little option but "brute force" guessing the passwords. With any decent choice of password, that could take a long time.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Considering it is Anglo and seeing how good they do their business I'd guess the encryption level is the built in once of WinZip, Excel etc.

Setun

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's a variety of the latter. But if you use a proper password - containing upper and lower-case letters, numbers, and common symbols (question marks etc), then the length of time to crack the password looks like the below:

Length |Combinations |Class A |Class B |Class C |Class D |Class E |Class F
2 |9,216 |Instant |Instant |Instant |Instant |Instant |Instant
3 |884,736 |88½ Secs |9 Secs |Instant |Instant |Instant |Instant
4 |85 Million |2¼ Hours |14 Mins |1½ Mins |8½ Secs |Instant |Instant
5 |8 Billion |9½ Days |22½ Hours |2¼ Hours |13½ Mins |1¼ Mins |8 Secs
6 |782 Billion |2½ Years |90 Days |9 Days |22 Hours |2 Hours |13 Mins
7 |75 Trillion |238 Years |24 Years |2½ Years |87 Days |8½ Days |20 Hours
8 |7.2 Quadrillion |22,875 Years |2,287 Years |229 Years |23 Years |2¼ Years |83½ Days

The "Class A" etc indicates the type of computer you can throw at the problem:

A. 10,000 Passwords/sec
Typical for recovery of Microsoft Office passwords on a Pentium 100

B. 100,000 Passwords/sec
Typical for recovery of Windows Password Cache (.PWL Files) passwords on a Pentium 100

C. 1,000,000 Passwords/sec
Typical for recovery of ZIP or ARJ passwords on a Pentium 100

D. 10,000,000 Passwords/sec

Fast PC, Dual Processor PC.

E. 100,000,000 Passwords/sec

Workstation, or multiple PC's working together.

F. 1,000,000,000 Passwords/sec
Typical for medium to large scale distributed computing, Supercomputers.

So a password like "B33r&Mug" could easily take a couple of years for the Gardai to crack - I somehow doubt they have access to 83 days of super-computer time.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Interesting post, thanks for that. Wonder what system they have access to then.

Nijmegen

Daddio wrote: »

Interesting post, thanks for that. Wonder what system they have access to then.

Considering their radio system......

Saadyst

Can't blame the gards really..

There's a law in the UK that makes it a crime for refusal or failure to hand over passwords when required by law enforcement. The idea in itself is quite flawed, but for lack of a better idea...

Setun

Saadyst wrote: »

Can't blame the gards really..

There's a law in the UK that makes it a crime for refusal or failure to hand over passwords when required by law enforcement. The idea in itself is quite flawed, but for lack of a better idea...

From somebody who generally knows quite little about Irish law: isn't there a law called obstruction of justice? Or did I make that one up*?


*quite likely

jmayo

gleep wrote: »

This should shock me, but it doesn't.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/ex-anglo-officials-refuse-to-reveal-file-codes-136021.html

Ex Anglo officials have continuously refused to give Gardai passwords to access files needed to conduct their investigation. It seems the courts will decide in APRIL whether or not they'll be let away with this.

If this was me refusing to co-operate and witholding crucial evidence from gardai, investigating a minor offence I bet I'd have had the book thrown at me long ago. But when it's "insiders" who have bankrupt the country,

the most devestating criminals in the history of the state, they get the time to stall. And they'll likely get away with it.

I say hang flog the Bastards.

Name and shame.
Lets have their names published.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Encryption software doesn't usually contain a 'backdoor', so there would be little option but "brute force" guessing the passwords. With any decent choice of password, that could take a long time.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Brute force ehhh.
Lets use a method Singapore police wanted to use, but were refused.
It involves a viper and a jail cell.
Supposedly it has remarkable ability to remove amnesia.

These people should be done for obstruction of justice, how about slap them with contempt of court and drop them in with the sex offenders ?
Failing that I say back to using vipers.

Liam Byrne

Nody wrote: »

Considering it is Anglo and seeing how good they do their business I'd guess the encryption level is the built in once of WinZip, Excel etc.

If only that were true.

Anglo isn't about incompetence, though. It's about ensuring the secrets of those responsible for at least half of our woes stay hidden, and their identities protected*.

*Personal suspicion that's climbing daily due to drip-fed revelations.

Scofflaw

Saadyst wrote: »

Can't blame the gards really..

There's a law in the UK that makes it a crime for refusal or failure to hand over passwords when required by law enforcement. The idea in itself is quite flawed, but for lack of a better idea...

Unfortunately, like jmayo's fatuous suggestion, it is indeed flawed, because it involves a certain presumption of guilt - as do many of the suggestions made in these cases - and the question of whether people can be forced to incriminate themselves.

Throwing away civil liberties is never a good solution. One can just about justify suspension of them time of war, but increased unemployment and a higher tax bill really aren't sufficient justification for the reintroduction of the Inquisition, however gratifying people might find it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Liam Byrne

Breaking news @ 11 : Cowen has refused to intervene

The wanker intervened - using our money - when Anglo came begging.

Why does EVERY ACTION this crap government does stink of protecting the guilty and shafting the taxpayer - i.e. THEIR EMPLOYERS?

Paddysnapper

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Breaking news @ 11 : Cowen has refused to intervene

The wanker intervened - using our money - when Anglo came begging.

Why does EVERY ACTION this crap government does stink of protecting the guilty and shafting the taxpayer - i.e. THEIR EMPLOYERS?

Utterly correct..They have no idea the level of anger that exists in the populous:(

Dannyboy83

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Breaking news @ 11 : Cowen has refused to intervene

The wanker intervened - using our money - when Anglo came begging.

Why does EVERY ACTION this crap government does stink of protecting the guilty and shafting the taxpayer - i.e. THEIR EMPLOYERS?

I am by no means suggesting or encouraging any action be taken against Mr.Cowen, but realistically speaking - one would assume he will have to live with a Spetsnaz division for the rest of his days.............

digme

Maybe cowen could be arrested?
Could a member of our an garda siochana actually just walk up and arrest him if he knew he did something to warrant such an action? ?Hypothetically of course.

Scofflaw

digme wrote: »

Maybe cowen could be arrested?
Could a member of our an garda siochana actually just walk up and arrest him if he knew he did something to warrant such an action? ?Hypothetically of course.

Depends what they're being arrested for, and when, and where:

TDs and Senators may not for example, be arrested when going to, returning from or being within the precincts of either of the Houses of Parliament (the Dáil or Seanad). This privilege does not apply to arrest for treason, felony or breach of the peace.

Outside those limits, yes, the Gardai can arrest him just as if he were any other citizen.

cordially,
Scofflaw

digme

Very interesting.I suppose all he is just another citizen regardless of his job.
Surely if anglo won't give the garda the passwords and cowen won't intervene,I suppose he knows he's not legally obliged to do so.Or is he?

Sir Oxman

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I am by no means suggesting or encouraging any action be taken against Mr.Cowen, but realistically speaking - one would assume he will have to live with a Spetsnaz division for the rest of his days.............

He won't mind - we'll be paying for the guards and cars for him till he dies.

Scofflaw

digme wrote: »

Very interesting.I suppose all he is just another citizen regardless of his job.
Surely if anglo won't give the garda the passwords and cowen won't intervene,I suppose he knows he's not legally obliged to do so.Or is he?

I doubt he's legally obliged to - he may even be legally required not to do so. Nor am I sure what the legal status of the inquiry is in respect of being able to demand cooperation.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Amhran Nua

Nody wrote: »

Considering it is Anglo and seeing how good they do their business I'd guess the encryption level is the built in once of WinZip, Excel etc.

Yup, I'd guess the real problem is the legal admissibility of the evidence. Once someone has physical access, all bets are off. You can bypass windows passwords just by yanking out the hard drive and putting it in as a secondary drive.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Ronan|Raven

Even with physical access to where the files are stored - cracking the password as previously outlined is not as simple as getting past windows password "security"

jester77

Scofflaw wrote: »

Depends what they're being arrested for, and when, and where:



Outside those limits, yes, the Gardai can arrest him just as if he were any other citizen.

cordially,
Scofflaw

So the Dail pub is a safe haven for these guys!

Scofflaw

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Sure - it's a reference standard (not that the Garda may not actually have some).

A modern computer would be the "Class D" there, so it would only take 23 years to crack a decent password rather than a period thousands of times longer than the lifetime of the Universe.

cordially,
Scofflaw

digme

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure - it's a reference standard (not that the Garda may not actually have some).

A modern computer would be the "Class D" there, so it would only take 23 years to crack a decent password rather than a period thousands of times longer than the lifetime of the Universe.

cordially,
Scofflaw

A gpu is what you want,cpu's are gay for most applications.

Naz_st

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure - it's a reference standard (not that the Garda may not actually have some).

A modern computer would be the "Class D" there, so it would only take 23 years to crack a decent password rather than a period thousands of times longer than the lifetime of the Universe.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Actually, in case anyone is interested (and I know that is unlikely!), depending on the security system used (and it's likely a standard one), or even more likely the "easy to remember" password choices of the users, brute forced password cracking probably isn't necessary. For the likely password choices, a dictionary attack would probably yield good results in short order, and if that doesn't work a rainbow hash attack would probably work for the majority of the other passwords (in the order of seconds not years).

Even if brute forcing is necessary, with the clever usage of cheap processing power in the form of high-end graphics card GPUs, the power available at small cost is quite significant, potentially allowing the brute forcing of 8 length upper, lower case and number passwords in the order of a day or two.

Amhran Nua

Naz_st wrote: »

Actually, in case anyone is interested (and I know that is unlikely!), depending on the security system used (and it's likely a standard one), or even more likely the "easy to remember" password choices of the users, brute forced password cracking probably isn't necessary.

Indeed, and I'm fairly sure MS wouldn't have much difficulty helping out national law enforcement agencies with the algorithm used.

hinault

Theft Act 2001 specifically states that witholding passwords/access to a computer files is an offence.

part 7 section 48

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/print.html

Nate--IRL--

hinault wrote: »

Theft Act 2001 specifically states that witholding passwords/access to a computer files is an offence.

part 7 section 48

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/print.html

I don't know, the law isn't clear cut. It only states that the Password for operating the computer is required. It also states information on the computer be made visible and legible. Well, there is nothing stopping the Garda viewing an encrypted file in notepad if he so wishes

(5) A member of the Garda Síochána acting under the authority of a warrant under this section may—

(a) operate any computer at the place which is being searched or cause any such computer to be operated by a person accompanying the member for that purpose, and

(b) require any person at that place who appears to the member to have lawful access to the information in any such computer—
(i) to give to the member any password necessary to operate it,

(ii) otherwise to enable the member to examine the information accessible by the computer in a form in which the information is visible and legible, or

(iii) to produce the information in a form in which it can be removed and in which it is, or can be made, visible and legible.

Nate

who the fug

Sorry but why don't Anglo have these passwords to hand, they are company files on company computers.

Surely the problem is with Anglo not ex employees

kippy

I'll tell you one thing. Those files only got encrypted the night of the bailout. You can be sure of that!


This is just another nail in the coffin of the Republic of Ireland.

kippy

who the fug wrote: »

Sorry but why don't Anglo have these passwords to hand, they are company files on company computers.

Surely the problem is with Anglo not ex employees

Theres a chance singular employees used software such as truecrypt (truecrypt.org) whic is entirely free and not rocket science to use or similiar to encrypt files of their own/folders of their own/anything they wanted to really.
These passwords would not be know by IT nor would IT be able to reset them etc.

jmayo

Scofflaw wrote: »

Unfortunately, like jmayo's fatuous suggestion, it is indeed flawed, because it involves a certain presumption of guilt - as do many of the suggestions made in these cases - and the question of whether people can be forced to incriminate themselves.

Throwing away civil liberties is never a good solution. One can just about justify suspension of them time of war, but increased unemployment and a higher tax bill really aren't sufficient justification for the reintroduction of the Inquisition, however gratifying people might find it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I think if it comes to pass as Morgan Kelly has predicted then it won't be just higher taxes and increased unemployment, we will have huge unemployment, massive cut in our already crap services, massive cuts in welfare, massive evictions or upheavel in mortgages and a probable lock down of personal savings.
In that scenario the civil liberties of certain people whose actions led us into this mess are going to be under scrutiny from mobs.

We Irish are a funny lot.
We take a huge amount of crap, but by God when we do finally get off our ar**es we can react very viciously and violently.
To date that was only ever directed at foreigners who ran our country, but that can change.
People will want some semblance of justice and if they don't get it then they may exact it themselves.

dvpower

If the files are the property of Anglo, wouldn't the passwords used to encrypt them also be the IP of Anglo?
It's hard to accept that a simple court order couldn't be obtained to compel the passwords to be handed over.

dvpower

Scofflaw wrote: »

So a password like "B33r&Mug" could easily take a couple of years for the Gardai to crack - I somehow doubt they have access to 83 days of super-computer time.

This presumes that strong passwords have been used. I presume* that the Gardai have already tried dictionary attacks and other methods.

* I don't actually

kippy

dvpower wrote: »

If the files are the property of Anglo, wouldn't the passwords used to encrypt them also be the IP of Anglo?
It's hard to accept that a simple court order couldn't be obtained to compel the passwords to be handed over.

I doubt you could class passwords as Intellectual property however the premise is correct I believe.
Ultimately the files and the data contained within them IS property of Anglo no matter who encrypted.


Lets be honest here and this is exactly why I am so angry at how Bertie was let of the hook, of court orders are issues and there is some way of "getting the passwords" all the people involved have to say is:
"Ah, sure I forget what the passwords are. It was that long ago and they were so complex."
We've already let Bertie (and others) off with the same excuse.

stereo_steve

Scofflaw wrote: »

So a password like "B33r&Mug" could easily take a couple of years for the Gardai to crack - I somehow doubt they have access to 83 days of super-computer time.

But I bet they have access to a bat!

jimmycrackcorm

I would like to know why these files were encrypted?
If they were to secure confidentiality for the banks operations then the normal process would be to have a common secure storage mechanism where documents could be retrieved by other personnel.

If I was a System Admin and I refused to hand over passwords for company systems then I could be prosecuted so why can't these guys be prosecuted for obstruction?

Amhran Nua

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If I was a System Admin and I refused to hand over passwords for company systems then I could be prosecuted so why can't these guys be prosecuted for obstruction?

I'm guessing some sort of commercial sensitivity of a national nature card is being played - translation, if the markets ever found out the real truth we'd be burned for quite a long time to come. Of course that such blatant obstruction is taking place has the exact same effect...

SkepticOne

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Of course that such blatant obstruction is taking place has the exact same effect...

This general tendency to hide and obstruct has been one of the big problems all along with the government's handling of the crisis. Uncertainty is worse than bad news. Politically, it makes sense even though it is disastrous financially.