Have pensioners already paid their dues.

wolfpawnat

They worked for years.

In the 80's they paid 60p of the pound in tax.

Some saved for their pensions.

Have they done their time financially is everything they have now rightfully theirs.

We all are going to suffer and many say €5 is too much. Others say they need to be attacked as much as the rest of us.

What do the people of boards think.

Bullseye1

For sure they have worked and contributed to the economy. But they have also got raises in the pension to keep with inflation. We are now in deflation so its only right that they contribute more like the rest of us. Don't forget most of the people working now will have to wait longer to get the pension when we retire. It looks like 68 but could be 70 the way things are going.

jimi_t2

All the sympathy I have for the OAPs is somewhat tempered by the fact that they are almost solely responsible for keeping FF in power over the last decade.

Those 300/e a week pensions had to come from somewhere...

wolfpawnat

jimi_t2 wrote: »

All the sympathy I have for the OAPs is somewhat tempered by the fact that they are almost solely responsible for keeping FF in power over the last decade.

Those 300/e a week pensions had to come from somewhere...

The most are on 230. Not much more than the dole/disability/careers allowance really.

Yes they single handedly gave FF the healthy margin they have had all this time.

Idbatterim

anyone who has ever worked has made a contribution, there are a huge amount of people that have worked for years who are still working, and have been with with higher taxes, levies, are no doubt about to face water charges, property tax etc... I dont see why they should be immune from the cuts. Funny how everything needs to be looked at, there are no sacred cows... Except the entire PS and pensioners!

wolfpawnat

Idbatterim wrote: »

anyone who has ever worked has made a contribution, there are a huge amount of people that have worked for years who are still working, and have been with with higher taxes, levies, are no doubt about to face water charges, property tax etc... I dont see why they should be immune from the cuts. Funny how everything needs to be looked at, there are no sacred cows... Except the entire PS and pensioners!

you forgot the SW, Judges, TD's etc!

red_diesel

Public service pensions should be cut before the old age pension. It is immoral to pay such pensions to a section of society that just happen to work for the government.

P. Breathnach

jimi_t2 wrote: »

All the sympathy I have for the OAPs is somewhat tempered by the fact that they are almost solely responsible for keeping FF in power over the last decade....

For a good number of years our public policies have been based on populism and incompetence, and it has not worked very well for us.

I suspect that basing it instead on prejudice and vindictiveness would not work any better.

jimmycrackcorm

the few schillings and pence that OAPS contributed over the years don't add up to the thousands of euros they receive annually now. Their current pension arrived at by increases during the boom years which means they should accept some deflation now.

beeno67

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The most are on 230. Not much more than the dole/disability/careers allowance really.

.

The question is, if you are unemployed aged 65 you get €196 a week. The next day you are 66 and entitled to pension. Now you get €219 a week and the multitude of extra benefits. Why?
We are most likely going to reduce the €196. Is it not fair to reduce the €219 at least on a pro rata basis.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

20Cent

If we break agreements made with pensioners, then why not bondholders?

beeno67

20Cent wrote: »

If we break agreements made with pensioners, then why not bondholders?

What agreements with pensioners are being broken?

Ardent

jimi_t2 wrote: »

All the sympathy I have for the OAPs is somewhat tempered by the fact that they are almost solely responsible for keeping FF in power over the last decade.

Agreed. I'm inclined to protect pensioners because they are more vulnerable but really I'd like to see them burned for the reason you stated above.

20Cent

beeno67 wrote: »

What agreements with pensioners are being broken?

Pension agreements.

I think there will be cuts anyway.
Just pointing out the obscenity of cutting the old when we are paying bondholders.

pocketvenus

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The most are on 230. Not much more than the dole/disability/careers allowance really.

Yes they single handedly gave FF the healthy margin they have had all this time.

Except the majority of pensioners are mortgage free and free from other loans such as car etc. They also get a huge range of fringe benefits which other people do not get - for instance my own granmother with her benfits has a phone bill of just €3, her gas bills might be €50or less I do not know but it is low as she just pays money off each week so she is mainly in credit, her electricity bill again is very low, she can afford to pay €20 every week to get her hair done and lives quiet comfortable. She thinks a cut of €9 or at least reduction of benfits needs to happen. Herself and my grandad god rest him, never had much and raised 6 kids so she never had extra money lying about for her old age, only has the pension to live on but she admits she is ok and that after escaping last year that some small cut needs to be made.

And before the usual reply of all umemployes people get extra benefits alot of them do not and I know this for a fact due to where I work. With such huge amounts of people after being made redundant thresholds for benefits have been slashed, such a backlog on things people are waiting over a year for a response on whether or not they can get a medical card etc. One example I know of is a girl in her late 20's who lost her job, she had to move back home to her mother who is a widow in her 50's and both get the basic €196 and €200 a week they got a latter from SW to say they may be entitled to the fuel allowance of €20 and to apply which they did and was turned down as apparently if they were both living on their own they may be eligible but not as both getting the SW. I always though one of them would be entitled as they would both be judged as individuals but no.
There are people who are well able to play and abuse system can get these but the majority of people made redundant in past 2 years are entitled to very little only the basic €196 a week and if other circumstnaces such as kids they get child's allowance.

CDfm

It is a very complicated area for discussion.

It is not a thing like paying their dues. Pensioners were the ones who were economically active but also politically active.

They voted and in someway their votes kept the system we have in power.

When the PRSI money first started to get used as tax revenue they did not yelp. They also voted parties in that expanded the welfare system to unmarried mothers etc.

So in that way they are at some level responsible for the financial muddle we find ourselves in.

Their expectations may have been that funds would have been there for them and not that they would have to share a smaller pot.

So yes as a sector of society their demands have to be realistic but it is relative to the size of the pot of funds.

niallers1

It may be simplistic but they've worked and paid taxes for 40 years and have suffered the rat race and passed the finish line.
I think they should keep their state old age pensions and perks.

I think public/civil servant pensions are another matter.

beeno67

20Cent wrote: »

Pension agreements.

I think there will be cuts anyway.
Just pointing out the obscenity of cutting the old when we are paying bondholders.

What pension agreements?

wolfpawnat

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That is a matter of cost of living increasing.

There is no need to tell me of some of the perks. My MIL has a car, while living in a town with a tescos and supervalu that deliver. I don't believe in her losing her independence, but she drives the 300m to the shop and goes on unnecessary spins everywhere, then giving out about the cost of petrol.

She gives out about the cost of living while buying fresh sliced ham at near €1 a slice. She only shops in expensive clothes shops and buys a load of stuff on the spur of the moment!

She didn't work since the day she said I do! She is getting a contributory widows pension. She is giving out about property tax. She lives in a 4 bedroom, 4 bathroom, 2 living-room, dining room come kitchen, back kitchen house by herself, with a huge garage too. Her son and husband used live there too, but now the husband is deceased and her son is in Dublin.

But she is not the same as some people who are struggling. And there are a few struggling too. Too many of them having the life of Riley too.

DailyBlaa

There should be no one who escapes this budget. Everyone needs to contribute at least something. Given the the grey vote is so strong in the country FF may not be too inclined to do it.

The hard thing to grasp in all this is that this is just the start, we are looking at 6 Billion in cuts this budget and in the subsequent budgets we need to find another 9 Billion in cuts provided our economy grows at a rate of 2.75%. I think the government have grossly over estimated our growth and we will feel that pain in a few months time when this budget appears to be kind compared to the next.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

20Cent

beeno67 wrote: »

What pension agreements?

PS pension and old age pensions outlined in budgets.

Like I said I think they will be cut.
Bit sick though.

20Cent

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

We are not relying on the Anglo Bondholders to lend us money either but they get their money back.

Bill2673

I would be interested to see what the OAP benefit of €230 today was back in 2003 or in 2000.....the rest of us have gone back further than this in take home pay.

In general, I feel that the people who are protesting today over their OAP medical cards and pension benefits are the same people who were protesting 20 years ago to keep the unemployed out of the labour market (that is; Unemployment went from 5% to 20% in the 1980s, but for those working wages did not fall at all, due to the strength of unions and worker protests).

wolfpawnat

20Cent wrote: »

We are not relying on the Anglo Bondholders to lend us money either but they get their money back.

But not paying them makes Europe unhappy, and they matter more to our government than us in the measly Irish public

pocketvenus

Problem is if they are not cut in this Budget what does the next 3 or 4 budgets mean. Are they going to be exempt then also and going to hold the Giv to ransom.

Obviously the next Gov will be a FG/Lab coliation but will they have the guts to stand up to them or will they ride out the recssion with no pain at all while the rest are squeezed and driven into poverty.

johnboy_123

Yeah I think everywhere will be cut...No one and that includes children allowence, welfare, P.S and Pensioners needs to be cut...I think its unfair that those working face the prospect of paying through the nose once again and the problem is that it will force those working into poverty and to emigration and therefore less tax and the problem worsens. The above 4 groups if they emigrate...it means less of a burden on the pocket as we are dolling out the cash to keep them in their respective lifestyle .... Sorry for this unpopular post but it needs to be said

Sir Oxman

A few weeks ago - 'Everything is on the table'
Now, FF make noises about the OAP is sacrosanct, translated as they are the only ones who will vote for us, if we take 5 quid off them we will be totally wiped out.
Party always first.

wolfpawnat

johnboy_123 wrote: »

Yeah I think everywhere will be cut...No one and that includes children allowence, welfare, P.S and Pensioners needs to be cut...I think its unfair that those working face the prospect of paying through the nose once again and the problem is that it will force those working into poverty and to emigration and therefore less tax and the problem worsens. The above 4 groups if they emigrate...it means less of a burden on the pocket as we are dolling out the cash to keep them in their respective lifestyle .... Sorry for this unpopular post but it needs to be said

That could not work, no country in the world would take the elderly to fund, people with children who are temporarily down in their luck should not have to leave. If they did you would not have a pension because we need them to fund the country when we are elderly. And SW is not just people that are unemployed, it also includes Careers that are saving the country money by not throwing their loved ones into HSE care and the Disabled. Your post is almost similar to that of the criteria necessary for extermination in Nazi Europe.

Geuze

First, cut public service pension by 5-10%.

After other tax increases / cuts, if we have to, then yes, cut the State pension by maybe 5 pw.

BlaasForRafa

wolfpawnat wrote: »

extermination in Nazi Europe.

Well done for godwinning the thread.

Like many on this thread I don't think that pensioners should be sacred cows, everyone should be doing their bit to help out but it looks like it will be working people that get savaged in this budget.

The pension got raised at rates exceeding the rate of inflation during the boom years as if the money was going to be flowing in forever and ever (much like public sector pay in that respect). Now that the things have hit the fan they should have some of the pension or its attendant benefits like reduced electricity and phone bills taken away.

wolfpawnat

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Now that the things have hit the fan they should have some of the pension or its attendant benefits like reduced electricity and phone bills taken away.

I am less than them a week, and I pay FULL ESB and all other bills just like everyone else under 66. I think if you want to gossip on the phone, you should pay, not everyone else. Perhaps free calls to one allocated family member for emergencies.

We all need to feel a pinch. €5 is not a lot compared to everyone else!

CDfm

Originally Posted by 20Cent
If we break agreements made with pensioners, then why not bondholders?

PRSI started out as protecting workers who became unemployed -pay related social insurance and were paid a percentage of their earnings.

thats why employers pay 10.75% of payroll and employees c 4% and then the levies.

so every 5 years like a years salary has been collected from each worker to cushion them from hard times

what was meant to protect incomes went into the general tax fund just itching to be spent

so if that was not breaking an agreement then what was

can pensioners complain if they voted in the same rules for others themselves

irishh_bob

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

the few schillings and pence that OAPS contributed over the years don't add up to the thousands of euros they receive annually now. Their current pension arrived at by increases during the boom years which means they should accept some deflation now.

some of them never contributed a farthing yet are still entitled to 218 per week plus free travel , health care , more or less free electricity , fuel allowance , living alone allowance for widows - widowers , free phone rental , free tv licence , the whole thing is worth around 300 quid a week

id go as far as saying its impossible for a pensioner in ireland to be in poverty

they wont be cut in this budget but when the country goes bust next year , pensioners will not be spared and will most likely see thie pensions cut by at least 25% in the next three years

The_Thing

I wonder what you begrudging lot will think of next - euthanasia, perhaps?

Leave the old folks alone.

murphaph

The_Thing wrote: »

I wonder what you begrudging lot will think of next - euthanasia, perhaps?

Leave the old folks alone.

And what do you propose. We already know you believe the public sector should be left alone. So what does that leave? What would you cut?

gurramok

The_Thing wrote: »

I wonder what you begrudging lot will think of next - euthanasia, perhaps?

Leave the old folks alone.

Leave out the silly emotion crap please.

Why should they be left alone when its been explained in quite good detail their list of excessive entitlements?

wolfpawnat

The_Thing wrote: »

I wonder what you begrudging lot will think of next - euthanasia, perhaps?

Leave the old folks alone.

If you them alone you then have to leave children completely alone, health wise, education wise and financially.

Both are the most vulnerable in our society and both would then need to be as people say "be made sacred cows"

CB is either being taxed/cut, taking money for feeding and clothing children. There are people that were workers for years but are now unemployed. They have bills bigger that they could ever sort. Now there are being cut everywhere which is effecting young children.

We all have to share the burden. If it it shared it is lighter for everyone.

johnboy_123

wolfpawnat wrote: »

That could not work, no country in the world would take the elderly to fund, people with children who are temporarily down in their luck should not have to leave. If they did you would not have a pension because we need them to fund the country when we are elderly. And SW is not just people that are unemployed, it also includes Careers that are saving the country money by not throwing their loved ones into HSE care and the Disabled. Your post is almost similar to that of the criteria necessary for extermination in Nazi Europe.

Sorry maybe you misinterpreted what I meant not saying to cut it out completely but the amount given to each needs to be cut aswell as more tax...but as I say the problem with over taxing people is they say I have had enough and they leave the country therefore widening the gap between what we take in with tax and what we are paying out?

johnboy_123

wolfpawnat wrote: »

If you them alone you then have to leave children completely alone, health wise, education wise and financially.

Both are the most vulnerable in our society and both would then need to be as people say "be made sacred cows"

CB is either being taxed/cut, taking money for feeding and clothing children. There are people that were workers for years but are now unemployed. They have bills bigger that they could ever sort. Now there are being cut everywhere which is effecting young children.

We all have to share the burden. If it it shared it is lighter for everyone.

Spot on the money there it should be spread acecross everyone and thats cuts to the 4 groups i mentioned oap, childrens all, P.S and de Scratch and a smaller increase in tax...

The problem is that there are people breaking the bo!!ox working and when mortgages, ESB, Food, Travel, Childcare, Tax,Clothes are taken out there is usually a minus figure after it and it becomes more expensive to work than to sit at home doing nothing..(not having a go at those on the scratch)

The gov have the tools here to really help people they own most of the banks...Why not allow say a person with 100k mortgage who is struggling to pay that has say 10 years left...Allow them to pay it over 20 but not increasing the final sum that the bank gets...

For example say the interest after 10 years is 10k so then its a flate rate of an additional 10k over 20years...It will free up a lot of cash for people who need it in other areas...

They own public transport...Why not let anyone who is working avail of cheaper fares...incentivise people to work

Why not cut the ESB to shreads?? they own

Why not allow people who work a tax break for buying a car or petrol if they are using it to go to work..

We have it arse about face...At the moment we incentivise lazyness and the scratch...We need to be focussed on making it easier to live if you are working

wolfpawnat

For those on the minimum wage and children to look after, they usually do not own their house but are probably renting, and if they are lucky it is the council they are renting from. It is appealing to just say forget it and sit at home and be there for your kids when they come home from school and what not. But attacking those on all aspects of SW so much that they can barely live is not the answer either. Most on it now are only since redundancies became rampant.

We do need to help those on minimum wage remain working. And a lot of those on it do need a lot of help just surviving.

Our government is only thinking of cuts. It is not thinking of enticements to keep those barely making more than those on SW in their jobs. We cannot increase min wage, but we can make them have better benefits for it. Half price VHI or something even. As you said lengthen mortgages but do not allow the banks to add interest.

The ESB and Bord Gais need to be sorted out, I pay them more a month (dividing the bill in 2 as it is every 2 months) and it is non sustainable. I held off on the gas as long as I could but mildew was growing on my walls and my son is in his nans for a week while it is being sorted. But I just cannot afford to add to my bills!

CDfm

I think what the real situation is that the situation is out of our hands as a nation and that includes the government and all the political parties. Eamonn Gilmore is keeping schtum.

The EU Commision sent over a commisioner to tell us -right lads the game is up -no bailout. Do the cuts or its the IMF for you.

Thats the reality.

johnboy_123

CDfm wrote: »

I think what the real situation is that the situation is out of our hands as a nation and that includes the government and all the political parties. Eamonn Gilmore is keeping schtum.

The EU Commision sent over a commisioner to tell us -right lads the game is up -no bailout. Do the cuts or its the IMF for you.

Thats the reality.

I hope your right I think this is the only way we are going to get out of this mess. We have been borrowing and been putting the pain on the long finger

CDfm

johnboy_123 wrote: »

I hope your right I think this is the only way we are going to get out of this mess. We have been borrowing and been putting the pain on the long finger

I have posted elsewhere that the EU has never been a begging bowl but a trading bloc and we sold access to our markets for grant-aid to develop as a nation.

During the boom years we took the Viv Nicholson approach to economics

Spent, spent, spent - pools winner now living on £87 a week





Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-449820/Spent-spent-spent--pools-winner-living-87-week.html#ixzz14slUatfX

All the politiians knew this and most voters in touch with reality and illegal immigrants knew it too.

Sleepy

The current preferential treatment of the elderly is unnaffordable and undesirable imho. Discrimination is Discrimination is Discrimination to paraphrase Mrs Thatcher.

Certain benefits, such as free public transport for the elderly, have postivie externalities (improved road safety) for the rest of us that make a good idea to provide for society at large. These should be maintained.

Agism that dictates non-means tested public pensions should be increasing in real terms whilst wages and other forms of welfare fall so an inept, corrupt government party can survive does not benefit society at large and therefore should be done away with.

Life isn't equal. We didn't all gain from the boom equally, and you can be sure we won't all suffer the pain of the recession equally. That is, however, no excuse for allowing discrimination to exist in Government Policy or any form of Law.

wolfpawnat

What is sickening me is that the government have ensured more expenses and salary deals for themselves and we are getting less and less.

I don't get a year what is just their expenses! They need to go! Any person who is working in a normal job does not get taxi/dart/luas/bus/petrol money, nor are their meals paid for (obviously if they work in a hotel/Subway they are fed) but no one gets paid for the food!

PatrickD32

Definitely!

CDfm

I don't think this is a treatment of the elderly issue or the Celtic Tiger.The Celtic Tiger is over and the money is spent. One would hope that CIE , bus eireann and Dublin Bus make sufficient profit from their monopoly to be able to provide transport for the elderly.

The serious issue is that the celtic tiger money is gone , spent, and the country is bust. No mon -no fun.

Our financial crisis is largely of our own making. We joined the Euro thus losing control over our monetary policy and ignored all the warnings on it.

The economics of it are fairly simple and a competant Leaving Cert Economics student would understand them as would a bookies clerk taking bets on any big race.

If Paddy Powers or any on-line bookie ran their business as recklessly as the country has been run they would go out of business.

At this stage, one hopes that self regulation will work.

Now I am not singling out any political party here but at the last election they all costed out their programmes for government using the same economic assumptions so I can see no difference. Same dog -different hair.

The Corporate Estate - the Civil and Public Service and the Unions - have their part to play here but are all protecting their own sectors.

The idea that there is not a national consensus is sureal.