Sportage 4WD in ice?

Lady Kia

I have a new 4WD Kia Sportage. Should I stick into 4WD when I am going down a steep hill covered in ice, or leave it in 2WD?

listermint

4 Wheel drive, some vehicles such as the Pajero have a lower torque setting for ice conditions.

Cookie_Monster

check the manual for advice.

since down hill braking and steering will be more important. no sudden moves on the brakes or steering, take it gentle, less likely to slide

JimmyCrackCorn

Honestly being in the right gear is more important. 4wd is more useful for climbing hills though not critical.

101sean

Always amazes me the number of 4x4 owners who don't know how they work or how to drive them. Neighbour asked me the same thing last year in the ice, would it go better in 4wd :rolleyes:

Having said that on sheet ice, 4wd may not get you much further and won't help you stop much quicker, even with ABS/ETC my 110 was interesting to drive on the ice last Christmas

If you are descending a steep hill you should be in 4wd and an appropriate gear that will slow you down on the engine, DO NOT touch the brakes. If you start to slide you actually need to accelerate slightly.

Anan1

101sean wrote: »

If you are descending a steep hill you should be in 4wd and an appropriate gear that will slow you down on the engine, DO NOT touch the brakes.

This whole theory of using engine braking to avoid a slide made sense with low-compression engines in the days before ABS. I don't know how relevant it is now that engine braking may be more likely to result in wheels locking up on ice.

101sean

A lot of the expensive 4x4s have ice settings you can dial in and rely on a combination of engine braking, automatic gear selection and ABS/ETC. Never driven a Sportage but I suspect as they are part-time 4wd they are not that sophisticated.

Even with ABS, if all the wheels lock it's not going to work, still best to be in the right gear (too low and you will slide) and use engine braking (difficult in an auto, hold it in 1st and hope for the best!). The hard part is accelerating in to a slide, it's very counter-intuitive but allows the wheels to catch up with the road speed. This is the standard advice from Land Rover and any 4x4 training school.

This what happens if you get it wrong, embarrassed my self in front of a lot of Jeep owners many years ago in Belgium

Tea 1000

Anan1 wrote: »

This whole theory of using engine braking to avoid a slide made sense with low-compression engines in the days before ABS. I don't know how relevant it is now that engine braking may be more likely to result in wheels locking up on ice.

ABS is positively useless in ice. It does nothing. Engine braking would be better, but sometimes that's not great either, and when it comes to that all you can do is wait until you have grip and don't make any sudden movements!
4WD should be used in icy conditions, but as said above, check your manual, as there may be diff-locks etc that might be activated with certain buttons. You don't want that, so the manual will tell you what setting is best and how to activate it.

Anan1

Tea 1000 wrote: »

ABS is positively useless in ice. It does nothing. Engine braking would be better, but sometimes that's not great either, and when it comes to that all you can do is wait until you have grip and don't make any sudden movements!

Where do you get the idea that ABS is useless on ice? It's worked fine on ice for me.

Tea 1000

Anan1 wrote: »

Where do you get the idea that ABS is useless on ice? It's worked fine on ice for me.

You mean it massaged your foot as your car gradually slowed down? On snow ABS can actually be a hinderance, it's a well known fact. Because it's releasing the brakes every time the wheels skid, you're loosing brake force and never really regaining it on really slippy conditions. On snow a locked wheel sometimes had the effect of gathering snow in front of it and would stop that way.
Either way, with or without, if the road is slippy enough it doesn't matter what you have.

Zubeneschamali

Tea 1000 wrote: »

ABS is positively useless in ice. It does nothing. Engine braking would be better, but sometimes that's not great either, and when it comes to that all you can do is wait until you have grip and don't make any sudden movements!

If ABS isn't working, it's because you're on a very low friction surface. There's no way for engine braking to magic up extra friction between the tyres and road to slow you down more effectively than ABS can.

Tea 1000

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If ABS isn't working, it's because you're on a very low friction surface. There's no way for engine braking to magic up extra friction between the tyres and road to slow you down more effectively than ABS can.

It doesn't magic up any extra friction. It leaves the wheels rotating and will give you some steering. ABS once past their coping limit won't give you anything at all, not even steering. At that stage though, things are very dicey and any moves are difficult.

Zubeneschamali

Tea 1000 wrote: »

It leaves the wheels rotating and will give you some steering. ABS once past their coping limit won't give you anything at all, not even steering.

"Coping limit" ? I'm beginning to think you have no clue how ABS works at all.

101sean

Every vehicle is going to be different as to how it behaves, ABS has it's limits, if all the wheels stop rotating the ABS won't see a problem. If you have to brake, use cadence braking to help the ABS by keeping the wheels turning.

Zubeneschamali

101sean wrote: »

Every vehicle is going to be different as to how it behaves, ABS has it's limits, if all the wheels stop rotating the ABS won't see a problem. If you have to brake, use cadence braking to help the ABS by keeping the wheels turning.

You haven't a clue: the whole point of ABS is that it automatically does "cadence braking" 10 times a second. You doing a clumsy version as well is just reducing your stopping power for no reason at all.

BostonB

I think its marginal either way. I certainly didn't notice much of a difference with ABS on/off on ICE last year. ESP might muddy the water a bit. Though every passenger felt the need to tell me to turn it off. I played with on/off and finally left both on, and didn't really have any problems.

These might not be relevant to 4WD. I dunno.

Superior control with ABS

Though the test track was straight and wide like a normal lane, the car ran off the 'road' in 94 of 706 tests without ABS.
With ABS in function, only one driver failed once to remain on the road (1of 707tests).
ABS and braking performance

The average deceleration was greater with ABS than without for all 24combinations of tyres and road surfaces.
However, many individual tests on the A-track resulted in greater deceleration when wheels were locked-up digging themselves down in the loose snow to a level with greater adhesion.
A short braking distance is not always favourable, though, when the car has left its lane.

http://www.veta.se/abs66ice.htm

Bigger problem I had was just peoples bad driving. Lots of people wouldn't take a little run up to hill or slight ramp, so they got stuck on it. Whereas I just cruised over the same patch.

Anan1

Modern ABS will be far better than even the best cadence braking, the test BostonB quoted is 15 years old and 'the average deceleration was greater with ABS than without for all 24combinations of tyres and road surfaces.'

101sean wrote: »

Every vehicle is going to be different as to how it behaves, ABS has it's limits, if all the wheels stop rotating the ABS won't see a problem.

A modern ABS system will have g-sensors, it'll be able to tell the difference between a four wheel skid and the vehicle being at a standstill.

BostonB

Hey post a newer one then!

Pkiernan

To address the original post:

4wd will not give you any tangible advantage going down a steep hill covered in ice.

I would seriously reconsider driving down a steep hill covered in ice, and would only do so in dire emergencies - i.e. to get to a hospital.

Last winter, at times, I simply chose to stay at home when our local roads were almost impassable. A lot of folks who didn't ended up in the ditch, or on RTE news.

Anan1

BostonB wrote: »

Hey post a newer one then!

I'm already convinced of the benefits of ABS over cadence or engine braking!

Zubeneschamali

Pkiernan wrote: »

Last winter, at times, I simply chose to stay at home when our local roads were almost impassable. A lot of folks who didn't ended up in the ditch, or on RTE news.

I drove a good distance on snowy roads and motorways last winter, and the scariest drivers were the folks who thought their 4WD SUV made them invincible.

Rick Deckard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24bjkfg0

101sean

I stand corrected on modern ABS/ESP systems but suspect it doesn't apply to many older 4x4s (like mine ).

Main thing is you should know how your own vehicle works and responds, and know how to drive it in accordance with the road conditions. As Pkiernan says, if you don't need to drive in icy conditions, don't do it, I certainly didn't enjoy the couple of times I had to go out in it. 4x4 certainly doesn't make you invincible, just gets you a lot deeper in to trouble!

No doubt if the same happens again we'll still see drivers of Range Rovers and X5s going nowhere or in ditches as they've never read the manual :rolleyes:

Tea 1000

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

"Coping limit" ? I'm beginning to think you have no clue how ABS works at all.

I know how ABS works thanks. Looks like you're just not a great driver with no real feel for a vehicle. If you don't understand what's going on but think you do, there's no need to be rude to other posters.

Tea 1000

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I know how ABS works thanks. Looks like you're just not a great driver with no real feel for a vehicle. If you don't understand what's going on but think you do, there's no need to be rude to other posters.

If you watched the video posted above it pretty much rubbishes what you think about ABS being useless on snow/ice.

Anan1

Let's make our points without getting catty, lads.

peasant

To answer the original question, regardless of ABS, ESP, ETC ...

Of course it makes sense to engage 4WD going down a slippery hill. Just as when going up, the engine forces are distributed on all fours and not just on two wheels. This means every single tyre only brings 25% of the engine's force on the road (instead of 50% or nothing in a 2WD) thus reaching the limits of traction later than a 2WD.
Where a 2WD already starts sliding, a 4WD can still be controlled.

Having said that ...an icy downhill stretch usually offers damn little traction and even a 4WD could reach its limits very quickly and once you're sliding down there's no stopping or turning back (steering is the very best you can hope for until you get more grip) so icy hills really are best avoided ...even in a 4x4

There is another caveat ..I don't know what 4WD setup the OP's car uses. If it's one of those electrickery thingies that only kicks in when it's basically too late, 4WD in this particular car might actually make things worse

GERMAN ROCKS

does abs work only in the front wheels or in all 4 wheels or does it differ to each car. it seems when going slower the abs only works in the front wheels

kazul

Auto transmission with a snow setting works a charm on my fwd car.
In normal conditions I tend to use my brakes less than others anyway. Ease off gas, maybe a dab of brakes to scrub off speed and a final push to stop if necessary.
Kinda like the old "basin of water in the boot" style of driving. Day to day I do it mainly for fuel consumption reasons but the same method made life easier in January.
I only had one "moment" on an ungritted roundabout in phoenix park, I was very lucky to come out of it with no damage. Another guy on the same roundabout at the same time wasn't so lucky and demolished his front suspension as I slid across his path.
During that period of bad road conditions/weather I passed plenty of clowns in RWD and 4WD vehicles who didn't adjust their driving style accordingly.
And was passed by heroes who thought 4WD made them invincible.
Remember that the tyres have a MAJOR influence on road-holding ability regardless of transmission.

kazul

peasant wrote: »

Having said that ...an icy downhill stretch usually offers damn little traction and even a 4WD could reach its limits very quickly and once you're sliding down there's no stopping or turning back (steering is the very best you can hope for until you get more grip) so icy hills really are best avoided ...even in a 4x4

And sometimes, although counter-intuitive, the gas pedal will do you more favours than the brake pedal

Rick Deckard

Lady Kia wrote: »

I have a new 4WD Kia Sportage. Should I stick into 4WD when I am going down a steep hill covered in ice, or leave it in 2WD?

"covered in ice" could mean anything, I was driving up the Wicklow Mountains last year no problems in the snow/ice.. traction control working over time to keep me out of the hedges.

Where as on sheet ice, at the jct of Griffith Ave and Swords Rd, i was stopped on at the lights facing south, when the car just started sliding.. abs light on/off like mad, just had to go with it till the tyres found some traction about 40 yards past the junction!!