Develop your Marathon times - train as a middle distance runner?

ecoli

American distance running has seen a resurgence recently climbing as high as being ranked 3rd best distance country in the world. We have seen he likes of Chris Solinsky becoming the first white man to run under 27 minutes. Other names which have emerged are Matt Tegenkamp, and Dathan Ritzenhein running sub 13 for 5k.

Ritz has seen his career revived since his switch to new training group with the likes of Galen Rupp (27.10 for 10k) and Alan Webb (3.43 miler). Interestingly there coach Alberto Salazar a marathon runner in his day has used the approach of early season under distance training.

Last year Galen Rupp spent the early part of the year running 800m races before going on to set college records and going under 2 American Records (both broken in the race he ran). Likewise Ritz (a 2.10 marathon runner) raced 5ks and broke the American record shortly after joining the group.

Between this and looking at Bazmans PBs which show speed as well as strength got me thinking. Is training for the shorter distances in early part of the season a plausible approach in developing the strength to severely improving your times over the longer distances.

Jack Daniels preaches training at VO2 max paced sessions (roughly mile best pace) to help improve running economy and efficiency and form. If we were to take this philosophy one could argue that this could benefit novice runners to become efficient in there running before attempting to complete longer distances and will in the long run be more beneficial for a runner kind of like learning to crawl before you can walk in order to in the long run develop into a more efficient and therefor faster runner in the long term

So could track running actually be more beneficial than just building miles to be able to complete the longer distances through endurance alone?

If so how does one train for 800m/1500m? what are the best ways of developing speed endurance and form?

menoscemo

Oh no, not another marathon thread! :pac:

YFlyer

ecoli wrote: »

Is training for the shorter distances in early part of the season a plausible approach in developing the strength to severely improving your times over the longer distances.

It would be interesting to see if they put in the big miles during the winter season.

Haile Gebrselassie and Kenenisa Bekele have both raced in the shorter events indoors.

RoyMcC

I thought that any serious marathoner would mix up long miles with speed and tempo work in training. I'd agree that younger runners with potential should give it a crack on the track.

Just as Lydiard espoused plenty of long, aerobic miles as an important prerequisite to session work for his middle-distance runners.

MaroonTam

When our marathon group decided to form up for DCM10, we started in March.

For the first couple of months, we basically followed a 10km plan (our club coach planned for us), so early in the cycle 10 * 400m, some sessions of 600m, some 400/600/800/600/400 pyramids etc. Introducing a pace / tempo session through 2* 10 minutes. Rounding the week out with a long run of around 90 minutes.

This built the base levels up before we started getting into the long sessions required in the marathon specific stage.

Its a route I am thinking of going down again. Its getting close to the time to stop with the easy miles and get back into a plan, so I was thinking of targeting a 10km or 5 mile race before starting another marathon cycle.

So even at the recreational runner level, there is certainly a place for training for the shorter stuff. I particularly enjoy 5kms and 5mile distances. Good for keeping you sharp, and easier to complete than an average weekly pace run (more motivation)

shels4ever

I think its common sence that if you can imporve your base speed your economy over the longer distance will improve.

You will always need the endurance to back it up, so you cant get away from doing the miles.

ecoli

shels4ever wrote: »

I think its common sence that if you can imporve your base speed your economy over the longer distance will improve.

You will always need the endurance to back it up, so you cant get away from doing the miles.

I agree that you will need endurance the point i was trying to make is that people attempting marathons for the 1st time usually start training for 5k/10k and then marathon or straight to the marathon. Trying to say that would you develop better as a runner if you started as a 800/1500m runner as we see many club runners make this progression as the years go on is this the most optimum way to build to a marathon?

If you took 2 runners of a similar talent level and trained them over 3 years.

Runner A begins training at 800m/1500m for the first year builds up to 5/10ks the next year and finally tackles the marathon in the third year.

Runner B begins in year 1 building the miles getting stronger and stronger, begins to incorporate "speedwork" (marathon specific of course) and trains the three years maybe doing a few 5 miles or 10ks to keep them ticking over but not doing specific work for them

Which athlete is better equipped to run faster in the third year? One could argue that the more strength runner B has from marathon mileage surely makes him better for marathon? however if they have bad form in there running they are expending more energy surely then Runner A has an advantage?

Its interesting to think that in your first few months of running most people think must target a 5k and nothing shorter but there may be more logic in targeting a middle distance race so by the time you come to run 5k a) you have more endurance because you are not starting from scratch b) better running economy which means your first 5k or over will be more an experience rather than an "I survived it" feeling and c) given shorter race you are not as far back from the leaders so you are not as dejected and feel more involved in the sport

ecoli

RoyMcC wrote: »

I thought that any serious marathoner would mix up long miles with speed and tempo work in training. I'd agree that younger runners with potential should give it a crack on the track.

Just as Lydiard espoused plenty of long, aerobic miles as an important prerequisite to session work for his middle-distance runners.

Yes most include speed (5k or 10k specific) and tempo work but i am actually talking about racing middle distance a while before you begin marathon work.
Why only young runners with potential? surely the benefits to be gained in the form would benefit anyone. I know alot of top coaches who would highly recommend speed and form development drills to athletes of all age and abilities for improvements
Interesting Lydiard popped out there he also preached speed development drills so there maybe something in that which agrees with what I am saying. Again i am not saying that marathon runners should train like middle distance guys coming up to their race but rather before the new marathon cycle starts

kennyb3

ecoli wrote: »

Runner A begins training at 800m/1500m for the first year builds up to 5/10ks the next year and finally tackles the marathon in the third year.

3 points here:

1. There arent many 800m/1500m races around esp not outside the summer and those that are dont cater fully for newbies. You need to be at a certain standard to run them which is not the case for the 5k/10k runners.

2. Not many books/programs and so on for 800m/1500m runners so i dont think most newbies would know how to train for them in their first year.

3. Far, far more likely to get injured trying to train for 800m/1500m in a first year with speed sessions compared to just building easy runs for a newbie. This is where your debate falls flat on it's face.

However if we move away from those who are new to those with 2/3 year base then its a completely different arguement

kennyb3

ecoli wrote: »

Yes most include speed (5k or 10k specific) and tempo work but i am actually talking about racing middle distance a while before you begin marathon work.
Why only young runners with potential? surely the benefits to be gained in the form would benefit anyone. I know alot of top coaches who would highly recommend speed and form development drills to athletes of all age and abilities for improvements
Interesting Lydiard popped out there he also preached speed development drills so there maybe something in that which agrees with what I am saying. Again i am not saying that marathon runners should train like middle distance guys coming up to their race but rather before the new marathon cycle starts

Again you are going from talking about 2 newbies starting out to coaches and drills and form.

I think you have absically confirmed that if you want to go down the 800m/1500m route you need to join a club which most running newcomers wont feel comfortable doing.

RoyMcC

ecoli wrote: »

Why only young runners with potential? surely the benefits to be gained in the form would benefit anyone. I know alot of top coaches who would highly recommend speed and form development drills to athletes of all age and abilities for improvements

For sure - even us plodders try to run overpace in training now and again. Sessions, strides, drills, a bit of barefoot on the grass. But I'm not sure that I'd recommend recreational marathoners mix it on the track with the 800/1500 guys

ecoli

kennyb3 wrote: »

3 points here:

1. There arent many 800m/1500m races around esp not outside the summer and those that are dont cater fully for newbies. You need to be at a certain standard to run them which is not the case for the 5k/10k runners.

Goal Mile, Indoor races, Masters, Graded meets granted not a huge amount but remember many 800m/1500m guys do cross country so this could be incorporated training for these races here does not mean you are in competition phase from day 1

kennyb3 wrote: »

2. Not many books/programs and so on for 800m/1500m runners so i dont think most newbies would know how to train for them in their first year.

I wouldnt say that to be true Daniels book, Ken Livingstones healthy intelligent training are just two that come of mind off hand and doing a quick good search showing endless info on 800m training

kennyb3 wrote: »

3. Far, far more likely to get injured trying to train for 800m/1500m in a first year with speed sessions compared to just building easy runs for a newbie. This is where your debate falls flat on it's face.

Again you are basing this on jumping straight into sessions which no 800m/1500m runner does. Do Novice plans not include 400m reps or x number mins "hard" these are the equivalent to middle distance sessions believe it or not. Also how many kids start from scratch in clubs only to be running 800m or 1500m that year? surely if there was such an injury risk, qualified coaches would not have younger athletes whose bones have not fully developed doing this and would be doing easy mileage consistently for a year or two?

ecoli

kennyb3 wrote: »

Again you are going from talking about 2 newbies starting out to coaches and drills and form.

Reason i mentioned coaches was to highlight the principles (which can be applied to anyone) are not just me on a mad tangent. Form may sound technical but if you say to newbie it will help you maintain your speed with less effort i can assure you they would pay attention.
At the end of the day every runner is trying to improve themselves so how is talking of drills and form any different to buying a book with a training plan in it both are aimed at the same target.

ecoli

RoyMcC wrote: »

For sure - even us plodders try to run overpace in training now and again. Sessions, strides, drills, a bit of barefoot on the grass. But I'm not sure that I'd recommend recreational marathoners mix it on the track with the 800/1500 guys

Why not graded meets provide races for all levels. also if you wouldnt wanna race perhaps time trials or organised "private races". If it benefitted you more than the usual routine of the odd easy run to keep you ticking over till the next marathon cycle would it not be an option?

RayCun

ecoli wrote: »

Why not graded meets provide races for all levels. also if you wouldnt wanna race perhaps time trials or organised "private races". If it benefitted you more than the usual routine of the odd easy run to keep you ticking over till the next marathon cycle would it not be an option?

The usual alternative wouldn't be 'odd easy runs' though, it would be 5 - 10k road races.

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

The usual alternative wouldn't be 'odd easy runs' though, it would be 5 - 10k road races.

Given this fact could raise the argument which is better training after a marathon cycle for this - a more speed based 1500m/3k-5k training or a more strength based 5k-10k training?

Again this is just theory and hypothetical

ecoli

YFlyer wrote: »

It would be interesting to see if they put in the big miles during the winter season.

Haile Gebrselassie and Kenenisa Bekele have both raced in the shorter events indoors.

Well Rupp was coming off a cross country season in college. Ritz came from high mileage from his old group and focused on speed before hitting his 5k time and since got 3rd in World half champs last year and won the US Cross country championship. Ran 2.11 in New York last week

Here is a sample of Gebs training in the build up to World Half Champs in 2001 taken from an old interview from the "Emperor"

monday: a.m. 3h in the forrest, 17km/h (5:40/mi) + stretching
p.m. 1h easy

tuesday: a.m. 1.5h + stretching
p.m. 1h easy

wednesday: a.m. hard road run 15km-30km + stretching
p.m. 1h easy

thursday: a.m. sprints(against stiff legs from yesterday's road run) + jogging + long warm up and 20min stretching
p.m. 1h easy

friday: a.m. hills 15-20x400m with backjog + 15-20min stretching
p.m. 1h easy

saturday: a.m. track from 3x1200 to 8x2000 + stretching
p.m. 1h easy

sunday: a.m. 1h very easy

kennyb3

ecoli wrote: »

Goal Mile, Indoor races, Masters, Graded meets granted not a huge amount but remember many 800m/1500m guys do cross country so this could be incorporated training for these races here does not mean you are in competition phase from day 1

Indoors, masters, graded meets and xcountry all have a decent standard and arent exactly directed towards newer runners. Yes you can run in them but getting lapped will not be fun for most people.

ecoli wrote: »

I wouldnt say that to be true Daniels book, Ken Livingstones healthy intelligent training are just two that come of mind off hand and doing a quick good search showing endless info on 800m training

Take your point re google, but you know yourself the dangers of this.

Reading daniels myself now, not exactly an easy read for someone new to the sport. Never heard of the other book

ecoli wrote: »

Again you are basing this on jumping straight into sessions which no 800m/1500m runner does. Do Novice plans not include 400m reps or x number mins "hard" these are the equivalent to middle distance sessions believe it or not. Also how many kids start from scratch in clubs only to be running 800m or 1500m that year? surely if there was such an injury risk, qualified coaches would not have younger athletes whose bones have not fully developed doing this and would be doing easy mileage consistently for a year or two?

Take your point here a bit, but tempo's are still way less risky than intervals.

Your also talking about quailified coaches. They will prob keep reps at a sensible pace etc, we both know alot of runners dont.

Anyway the question is given all your above arguements back why is it only junior athlethes that come through clubs that race 800m/1500m and not newbie's. To be honest i think its because of # 1 and 2 above as i pointed out (particularly 1)

ecoli

kennyb3 wrote: »

Indoors, masters, graded meets and xcountry all have a decent standard and arent exactly directed towards newer runners. Yes you can run in them but getting lapped will not be fun for most people.

Take your point re google, but you know yourself the dangers of this.

Take your point here a bit, but tempo's are still way less risky than intervals.

Your also talking about quailified coaches. They will prob keep reps at a sensible pace etc, we both know alot of runners dont.

Anyway the question is given all your above arguements back why is it only junior athlethes that come through clubs that race 800m/1500m and not newbie's. To be honest i think its because of # 1 and 2 above as i pointed out (particularly 1)

I can agree that maybe should be more new runner orientated track races for sure. Regarding google the same could be said about other distances

Tempos are definitely safer but middle distance guys do them to.

Brings me back to my point regardless of racing would middle distance training benefit someone more than the traditional approach?

shels4ever

Think it comes down to long term planning, in an ideal world everyone running a marathon would have been ruuning from 10 years of age , and race Track and XC over the years building up speed before the step up and run a marathon. But thats not the way it works really with most people maybe doing a 12-18 week marathon plan off some base training.

Not too many people would look at training for a Marathon in 2-3 years time same seems to go for IM reciently also. Down as a club session a couple of months ago someone came to join and said that they wanted to do the marathon (8-9 week before Dublin) the reaction was that they should focus on 10k for now and do the marathon next year. Didnt go down too well but the guy did do the marathon and finish but picked up an injury.

When somoen decides on their Marathon training plan they need to decide on a few things

1. Do they want to run the fastes Marathon possible.
2. Do they want to run as fast as they can in 6 months time.
3. What areas are they strong in.
4. What areas do they need to work on. (Speed/endurance)

Once you know that you can come up with an approach. This maybe either to improve your speed and 10k times over time then run a marathon when your ready.

Or

Bang out 18 week of a generic plan that may or may not suit you.

or

Run a few shorter race and then longer races and see what areas you are strong in and where you need to improve. Then design a plan based on the results.

To say you need to just improve your speed over shorter distance may not be true for everyone. You just need to find out what you need to work on to achieve your goals.

MaroonTam

Ecoli,

The thing with your argument that I find myself nodding too the most is the argument of technique.

Every week I see our sprinters groups doing drills and technique sessions, they also incorporate core work.

I think the perception for marathon training is to run long, with marathon focused intervals / tempos.

I firmly believe that I would have run a more efficient marathon if there had been technique and core focus before the mileage phase. As it stands, this is something I am planning to work on over this coming winter.
If this could be gained from working with 800m guys, I would be all for it.

Domer

Looking at the original post, this is not a new approach. Back in the early 90's... 1992 I think it was, I was running competive 800s n the US College circuit. I raced against Bobby Kennedy in an 800 at the Indiana State Championships and he beat me on a sprint finish. He ran about 1:48 that day, and went on to become (I could be wrong here) but the first white guy to break 13 mins over 5k. He was obviously doing specific 800m / 1500m training at that time, but was still winning the NCAA cross country meet (over 10k) every year.

YFlyer

ecoli wrote: »

Well Rupp was coming off a cross country season in college. Ritz came from high mileage from his old group and focused on speed before hitting his 5k time and since got 3rd in World half champs last year and won the US Cross country championship. Ran 2.11 in New York last week

Here is a sample of Gebs training in the build up to World Half Champs in 2001 taken from an old interview from the "Emperor"

monday: a.m. 3h in the forrest, 17km/h (5:40/mi) + stretching
p.m. 1h easy

tuesday: a.m. 1.5h + stretching
p.m. 1h easy

wednesday: a.m. hard road run 15km-30km + stretching
p.m. 1h easy

thursday: a.m. sprints(against stiff legs from yesterday's road run) + jogging + long warm up and 20min stretching
p.m. 1h easy

friday: a.m. hills 15-20x400m with backjog + 15-20min stretching
p.m. 1h easy

saturday: a.m. track from 3x1200 to 8x2000 + stretching
p.m. 1h easy

sunday: a.m. 1h very easy

Yes I have seen the above.

I was probably referring to when Geb was racing on the track in his younger days. It was late last night when I read your post.

oldrunner

kennyb3 wrote: »

3 points here:

1. There arent many 800m/1500m races around esp not outside the summer and those that are dont cater fully for newbies. You need to be at a certain standard to run them which is not the case for the 5k/10k runners.

I ran 14 races this year 800m / 1500m or mile - and missed a bunch of others. They were run from April to August so cover the Summer but there is also the ALSAA track series over the winter with miles and 3k races.

I do agree that most of the races are not great for newbies