Anschutz 165 or Gehmann 404 jacket? (or 418)

Thirdfox

Just looking at getting my own jacket right now for 10m AR shooting as the club's one is nice, but still a tad too big for me.

Would anyone have any comments about either jacket? Can be found here:
http://www.intershoot.co.uk/acatalog/Jackets.html

150 vs. 170 pounds

Or even the Gehmann 418 for 195 pounds.

Currently - I'm shooting in the 520-530s so I don't feel it necessary to splash out for a 400+ euro tailor made one. But a jacket that at least fits my size should be of some benefit I imagine.

Does anyone have any recommendations? Is full leather (418) much better than leather/canvas combos (165/404)? I would only be using it for 10m standing - so I'm less concerned about 50m prone etc performance.

Kind regards.

Sparks

Full leather's pretty comfortable but less tolerant of gaining or losing a pound or two. Of those choices, the 404 looks about the best value, but it's really going to come down to how well they fit.

Thirdfox

The problem is I can't make it up to Omagh to try on the different jackets... I wonder do UCD use the Anschutz jacket? I know DURC shoots with the Gehmann.

I've heard from some people that the Gehmann doesn't pass equipment control for the Nationals? Is that due to material used or stiffness?

demonloop

Any new jacket is gonna have trouble with EC, get some shooting done and they'll be fine.

The 418 is a little over-priced IMO, the 404/165 would be a much better bet. The 404 is a little more comfortable due to the suede panels used, especailly the panel behind your neck.

Fit-wise, both are very good. Generally the 404 fits most shapes a little better.

I'm sure any retailer will be able to exchange should you get the size wrong, but if you use the size charts you should get it pretty close.

Coronal

I used the 404 for a while. It fell into a baggy unsupportive mess after a few months of admittedly reasonably intensive use. The ahg seems to hold its stiffness better, though may be a little particular for body fit. DURC has a lot of ahg jackets, you should get a good idea from those.

Also, the button hole panel on the 404 is too thick for EC. Not a huge deal, but it is a bit of a pain to hack out a chunk of suede.

It wasn't me!

My own view is that you need to look at a jacket in terms of where you expect to be during and at the end of its useful life, rather than where you are now. It's one thing to have a club jacket which fits newbies and regular shooters alike, but when buying a jacket for yourself, ask yourself whether you're going to hit a point during its life where you'd want to upgrade anyway, and then isn't the jacket you'd have upgraded to going to be a better investment in the first place? If you're able to get a stock size that fits you really well, then you're not really achieving anything by going made-to-measure. If however you're not built like a tailor's dummy, have a gut, or broad shoulders, or thick arms, or narrower arms or shoulders, or longer or shorter arms than is typical, then it's a seriously good investment. After all, it's not the tailor's dummy it has to fit going through equipment control. In terms of makes, it's hard to go too far wrong with any of the good models from Anschutz, Kustermann, Sauer, Thune or Mouche, provided they fit you. The individual proportions of leather, canvas and suede are a personal choice, as well as any elastic material in the cuffs or joints, or even the elastomer build synthetic jackets (though I personally am not quite sold on them, Coronal loves his). If I were buying in the morning, I think it'd be hard to go wrong with any of the above manufacturers, so just pick the one you like the cut of best with the features that suit you. If shooting air rifle, it's always going to work out better (in terms of fit and possible small discount) to get the trousers made at the same time, so that may be another consideration for you. I had a 167 Stenvaag jacket from demonloop before and it's a seriously excellent jacket, would definitely get one again, and might do so in the future. My own bottom-line view is that you can throw a little bit of money at the problem now, and buy again in a year or so, or you can get the whole lot right at the start and not worry about it for five or six years.

Sparks

Two other things to keep in mind - first, don't think you *have* to get a 3P jacket. DURC has almost exclusively 3P jackets because we have people shooting both prone .22 and standing air rifle; but if you never shoot standing, well why not do as IWM did and get a prone jacket; and if the other way round, why not do what I'm planning to do and get a standing only jacket?

And second, don't think of the jacket as capital equipment, think of it as a consumable with a longish lifespan. Remember, these things do NOT last as long as your rifle will; heavy use will wear out a cheap jacket inside of a year or two; and even a good custom-made jacket (like the one I bought and used fairly heavily) will really only give a few years of performance. Mine's now nine years old, and it's about two to three years past where I really should have replaced it and I've had to take a knife to the seams to get it to a passable level again.

And even if you take great care of your jacket, don't forget that you change too - my jacket at the moment is no longer fit for purpose, but it's not just because my tummy got temporarily bigger; the problem is that I got it when I was in my early 20s and now I'm in my early 30s and I've physically gotten bigger and it doesn't fit across the shoulders anymore. So even if you get a top-of-the-line custom-made jacket and take great care with it and it never loses its stiffness; it's still only ever going to be good for a few years before you yourself no longer fit it.

So if you get a cheap jacket now and in a year or two get a better, more expensive one, it's not really throwing money away on the cheaper jacket, it's saving money on the first jacket until you're able to capitalise on the better one later on. (Whereas if you bought a cheap rifle and then a more expensive one a year or two later, that might be money thrown away).

It wasn't me!

For the record, mine is a 3P jacket. Standing-only jackets are grand for getting through equipment control, but prone-only ones are tough. Personally, I think it's tough to find a reason not to get a 3P jacket. You don't want to handicap your ability to take up smallbore prone or three-positions down the line even if you're only shooting air rifle now.

Sparks

I thought you were getting a prone jacket originally IWM?

And personally, I think if you shoot nothing but standing, it's hard to find a good reason to get a 3P jacket, because the cut is always a comprimise between the arm position for prone and the arm position for standing/kneeling, which means the shoulder in a 3P jacket will always be a comprimise design, as will the back panels.

Besides, if it's only going to last a year or two, and you only have time to do one thing really well... well, why not put all your efforts into one basket and let the other stuff you don't really care about trundle along until you want to put effort into them?

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

I thought you were getting a prone jacket originally IWM?

And personally, I think if you shoot nothing but standing, it's hard to find a good reason to get a 3P jacket, because the cut is always a comprimise between the arm position for prone and the arm position for standing/kneeling, which means the shoulder in a 3P jacket will always be a comprimise design, as will the back panels.

Besides, if it's only going to last a year or two, and you only have time to do one thing really well... well, why not put all your efforts into one basket and let the other stuff you don't really care about trundle along until you want to put effort into them?

Nope, never had any intention of a prone-only jacket. Always intended to shoot 3P. I think any one-position jacket is unnecessarily restricting yourself in terms of disciplines. If you've been shooting it for ten years and tried it all, then decided on airgun only, like yourself, then fair enough, that's a decision made with all the information to hand. However, if you've still got lots to try, then I think it's important to retain the facility to do so.

Coronal

Another thing to consider (just to make it more fun :P) is do you really need a jacket? A new one will make a difference, but if you're running on limited funds, there could be other things that would have more of an impact: a good glove; frames (if needed); rearsight iris; nice buttplate. Fitting pants might make a bigger impact, if the club ones don't fit well. Some of the special shooting underwear, which will regulate temperature and provide some nice padding is also a sound investment.

I'd rate those things higher than a new jacket, mostly cos you can build your kit as you go and then have the jacket as a reward for hitting certain goals or something. Also, as long as the jacket isn't restricting movement I wouldn't worry too much about the fit just yet. If you can put in 550 with a crap jacket, you'll really notice the difference with a nice new fitted one

Thirdfox

I'm not in the A class just yet, but using my current club gear I am now touching the consistent 91s while practising.

I heard that intershoot supply sauer jackets too? I think at this point I should just give them a ring and see what they say. It's my second year of air rifle and i've only touched .22 once, I think that ar is the one for me. Looking at the gehmann and anschutz in the club I see that the ans has two panels in the back and g only one... A shooter told me that the two piece should be of greater benefit? Thanks for all the help guys!

Sparks

While new, a single panel can be better; but it ages faster, so the two-panel jacket can last longer. Again, remember that this isn't a jacket for life

Also, Coronal makes a good point - there are lots of bits of gear that are cheaper and could make equally large contributions to your shooting at this point. Frames and glasses, in particular because most glasses are not made to shooting's requirements (which are to be able to focus sharply on the foresight, not the target, at a range of 1m) - and many people who don't need glasses for anything else at all (from reading to driving) find they benefit a lot from glasses for shooting (I know I certainly fell into that category).

Also, if you're around the 540 stage, now might be a good time for a friendly RO to set aside and set up a cheekpiece for you.... or you could buy/make one for yourself....

Thirdfox

Ah - as for the gun itself (probably the most important part of the shooting - apart from the shooter I guess) I've been designated my own fwb 603 to play with as I see fit (though due to a scope issue - we've to share one scope between two rifles - to be resolved very soon). So I can fiddle with scopes/raiser blocks/cheekpiece/buttplate as needs be.

I guess getting a book on how to shoot air rifle properly would be a good idea too. I simply have no (technical) idea where feet, elbows, buttpiece, cant, cheeks etc are supposed to go. I've simply been trying some different things and doing what's comfortable-ish. Basically "does doing this make the shaky picture less shaky? " Though is it a case of "whatever feels right for you" is in fact the "right" method? I just worry that I could be turning bad practices into habits which might prevent me from moving from say 540 to 50 to 60 etc.

Have my own glove already - the club pants and boots are quite nice. Cheekpiece and buttplate - I guess I'll ask some of the more experienced ROs exactly where I should be placing them for a body like mine.

I'll see how I get on at the DURC Open this Sunday then.

You guys forgot to mention the key item of equipment that improves scores and is easily upgradable - the lucky mascot!

It wasn't me!

Actually, to begin with, the thing that will make the biggest improvement to your performance is very cheap, very easy to get and very simple. It is a notebook. With proper notes, and the approach to training I discussed with you before, you'll fly up.

Sparks

Thirdfox wrote: »

You guys forgot to mention the key item of equipment that improves scores and is easily upgradable - the lucky mascot!

Ah, my secret weapon...



Who says you can't interfere with other shooters on the line?

demonloop

My vote for the piece of equipment that is most crucial to a development shooter is Ways of the Rifle.

Once you've read it several times, you'll know better which bits of equipment will benefit your shooting, and the techniques to using them to their full potential.

The teddies are nice too though

It wasn't me!

demonloop wrote: »

My vote for the piece of equipment that is most crucial to a development shooter is Ways of the Rifle.

Once you've read it several times, you'll know better which bits of equipment will benefit your shooting, and the techniques to using them to their full potential.

The teddies are nice too though

Excellent suggestion actually. Huge amount of information there. Was flicking through the new edition the other day and it looks pretty nice indeed.

Sparks

Not so sure about that myself demonloop - Ways is bloody useful when you know how to use it and what to look for, but unless you've got a solid training basis and know how to tell when it's working and when it's not, Ways might just be too much data to qualify as useful.

For example, we start off showing DURC shooters just the one way to shoot; once they're familiar with the rifle, and have their feet under them, only then would we start tweaking their setup and position to fit their individual phyisologies. Ways starts off a little after that point, showcasing dozens of different positions which have been heavily customised by very experienced shooters. If you were to take, for example, Peter Sidi's position and ape it competely, you'd get cargo cult shooting - which rarely works, and which can sometimes harm the shooter.

Basicly, unless you've been keeping a training dairy for a while, Ways might be a bit much (in my humble opinion that is).

Coronal

I agree with Sparks there. It's a great book, but there's a lot in it. And most of the useful bits I've found in it, I've only found after a few years of shooting and several readings. Talking to experienced shooters and asking a coach nicely for some advice is probably a better way to spend that reading time. In my experience, any of the coaches in Ireland will happily spend a couple of hours one on one with somebody who's interested.

demonloop

Not so sure guys, agreed theres a lot of advanced info, but theres a heck of a lot of basic stuff too. One of the very few books which covers both IMO.

There's basic position building, and a very basic intro to the mental side which is particularly good.

If you go into the book thinking you have to follow it to the letter from day one, that mght cause you more harm than good, but taken in stages I think its excellent no matter what your level.

Worth noting also the severe lack of coaching / information available to a new shooter. WOTR gives a little something to work on.

Thirdfox

I noticed on the MEC site that they have an air rifle only book out too - Air Rifle Shooting - anyone have any experience with that one?

Sparks

Have it myself, and yeah, it's worth the money; but again, there is a lot of info in there. I'm not sure I'd throw someone at it until they'd been shooting with a coach for a while.