The gideon's international, thier books and schools.

Nevyn

We all know that the gideon's are a group who put bibles in every place they can squeeze one in. apprently they have managed 1.5 billion in hotels, hospitals prisons army and now schools here in Ireland.

The young lad who is in 1st year came home with a pocket edition of the new testament and proverbs and psalms, they came into the community school gave them out and he was instructed by the teacher to take one and to put his name on it and to keep it in his bag and the class was told to read a bit from it every day.

This book is not on the book list it is not part of the curriculum, but this evangelical organisation was allowed in the school and it's literature was pressed on every child. The book has a special index in the front which points to passages to help with life's problems, christian virtue and character.

I am staggered they were allowed in the school and it was given out and that my son who is not christian (and the teachers are aware of that) was instructed to take one and put his name on it.

Am I the only one who thinks this is well out of order?

GLaDOS

Is it a christian school or non denominational?

Choochtown

Totally out of order.

Were these people invited in or did they approach the school? (I suspect the latter.)

Did they have to undergo a Garda check as anyone who has contact in this way with children should have to? (Even GAA underage coaches are now asked to undergo a check)

Same rules should apply ... even for freaks.

Where do they come from? Gidea?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9hLi3Q4ttE

Choochtown

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Is it a christian school or non denominational?

Community schools are supposed to be non-denominational (but always seem to have a priest on the management board)

Galvasean

Choochtown wrote: »

Same rules should apply ... even for freaks.

Classic! I actually snorted aloud upon reading. :pac:

Thaedydal, I'd be pretty darn annoyed if this happened with my (as of right now hypothetical) kids. They have shown a blatant disegard for your child's lack of belief in Christianity. I would ring the school and pose the questions outlined in Choochtown's post.

Nevyn

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Is it a christian school or non denominational?

It is listed as a "interdenominational, co-educational school" but at this stage I think they take interdenominational to mean catholics and protestants and the co educational meaning the rest are to put up and shut up.

I am going to ring the school for an appointment in the morning, only was in with them last month after the welcoming ceremony for first years before the midterm break turned out to be a religious service with 2 local parish priests and the local reverend, leading prayers, reflections and blessings with hymn.
I was told about it by letter, by the tutor at the parent teacher meeting and reminded by text but it was just described as a welcome ceremony and they school didn't think it would be a big issue was it wasn't a mass.

philologos

Thaedydal - Do you oppose your son having general access to Biblical texts or just the principle that they were given out at school?

The book has a special index in the front which points to passages to help with life's problems, christian virtue and character.

Again, you hardly think there is any problem with the actual book having sections for lifes problems and Christian character, just that it was handed out at school?

Surely, the issue is where it was handed out, rather than the actual contents?

If the problem is that it was handed out at school, and the school was a secular school, then I can understand your grievance. If the school is Christian ethos, I don't see the issue.

robindch

Thaedydal wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks this is well out of order?

Well, in all fairness, you're posting on A+A. You'll only ever get one answer here

I'd certainly take it up with the school principal, though if it's a school controlled by a religious organization, you'll probably get short shift -- "If you don't like it, you can set up your own school" is one typical response from some of the religious who pass by this forum.

Though, that said, I found the head of the preschool where my own kid goes was accommodating and fairly decent when asked very politely about one incident with my kid. Though she couldn't help but drop it that "there's nobody like that, er, no parents with any objections" in the class that she teaches (so the kids get the full religious runaround: visits from priests who hand out sweeties (ugh!!), trips to the local church, religious songs, prayers etc, etc).

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

Surely, the issue is where it was handed out, rather than the actual contents?

The issue for me, and I suspect most atheists + agnostics, is that people are using their positions of authority to influence children to belive their religious stories.

I've no problem (as does Dawkins and, I think, just about everybody else) with these things being read as fables. The issues arise once senior figures start pretending they're true.

philologos

robindch wrote: »

The issue for me, and I suspect most atheists + agnostics, is that people are using their positions of authority to influence children to belive their religious stories.

I've no problem (as does Dawkins and, I think, just about everybody else) with these things being read as fables. The issues arise once senior figures start pretending they're true.

OK, I think this is fair enough.

Although, it sounds as if you wish to cushion any children that you have from the world rather than teaching them how to engage with it in the best way possible.

Even if one doesn't come into contact with Christianity through school, there is no guarantee that it won't happen in any other way. Such as having a Christian friend who will explain about their faith on question to becoming curious about Christianity in general, and being given a Bible in some other way.

You get what I mean? It would be like if Christian parents kept their children concealed from the outside world and hid all pro-atheist books and atheist advocacy from them. Admittedly, in my case you end up giving your atheist books to other Christians to help them see what their argumentation is like

Nevyn

Jakkass wrote: »

Thaedydal - Do you oppose your son having general access to Biblical texts or just the principle that they were given out at school?

There are 4 different christian bibles in this house, two different Korans, an annotated Torah, Vedic texts, the life of Buddha, prose and poetic Edda, a witches bible, the abridged golden bough and LaVey's satanic bible, all in the sitting room and accessible to my kids when ever they want right beside the dictionary and the thesaurus.

The school has a religion book, we got it for my son and after talking with the teachers didn't opt him out as after going over his book and the teaching text and the topics covered it would be better for him to be included.
There was no bible on the book list and bible study is not part of the lesson plan or circulum for that class. It was in my day in secondary school, we all had to have a certain edition of the good new bible but this is not the case in the school but still an outside group were permitted to coming in and hand out these religious texts and my son was not allowed to refuse to take it.

Jakkass wrote: »

Again, you hardly think there is any problem with the actual book having sections for lifes problems and Christian character, just that it was handed out at school?

I think there is no point in just pointing a 12/13 child at quotes from the bible to help them tackle issues in life such as and I quote Flesh, fear, lust, sin, pride, greed and revenge'.

Jakkass wrote: »

Surely, the issue is where it was handed out, rather than the actual contents?

It is more where it was handed out and the manner which I have issue with,
but it will also subvert discussions in religion class to be about the bible rather then the proscribed religion book which has view points from all the major world religions.

Jakkass wrote: »

If the problem is that it was handed out at school, and the school was a secular school, then I can understand your grievance. If the school is Christian ethos, I don't see the issue.

Yes the school has a christian ethos but it also as a set curriculum and book list.

Truley

Yep I remember the Gideons coming to my secondary school too. Word of advice, there are a few organisations that target school children in this way, particularly first years. If it's anything like my school expect a visit from the Pioneers, Faith Friends, Youth 2000, folk choirs and numerous individuals who have had visions etc I'm all for allowing kids access to religious info and hearing other people's stories. But really these groups are allowed access to promote their agenda, it has little to do with actually educating the child. And it's not just the religious aspect I have a problem with, I was subjected to a stream of peddlers during my time in school. Everything from tampax to bewleys tea (!) I'm only out of school three years. I would keep an eye on it, and definately recommend having a word with the teacher.

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

it sounds as if you wish to cushion any children that you have from the world rather than teaching them how to engage with it in the best way possible.

I certainly do intend to prevent her from hearing religious stories as true for as long as possible, hopefully until such time as she's developed sufficient intellectual and emotional self-confidence and ability to be able to see them for the memetic hooks that they are. Once she's developed these qualitie, I expect she'll be able to "engage" with religion appropriately.

Jakkass wrote: »

Even if one doesn't come into contact with Christianity through school, there's no guarantee that it won't happen in any other way.

I'm very well aware of that. Horizontal memetic transfer is, after all, the most effective means of rapid transfer of religious ideas in non-authoritarian states (and one that the recently-evolved protestant variations of christianity have done so much to develop )

And so, as I can't prevent her from catching a cold from some guy preaching at the top of Grafton Street, I can't stop her from being influenced by her friends either. Quite the opposite really. All I do want her to be is as prepared as possible for the inevitable moments in her life when people think that she should believe the same religious stories that they do -- with sufficient qualities as above, I would be fairly happy that she can make a free and informed choice as to whether or not to believe them.

mikhail

Jakkass wrote: »

OK, I think this is fair enough.

Although, it sounds as if you wish to cushion any children that you have from the world rather than teaching them how to engage with it in the best way possible.

Let's try a bad* analogy: imagine a gay teacher were to welcome a representative from Gay Ireland into the class. This person handed out pamphlets about tolerance of sexuality. The teacher told all of the kids to take one, write their name on them and read from them every day. Is this an acceptable action from the teacher? I would argue no, and I'm quite sure that many parents would be very upset by this behaviour.

*All analogies are bad, for some value of bad.

robindch

Truley wrote: »

Yep I remember the Gideons coming to my secondary school too. [...] the Pioneers, Faith Friends, Youth 2000, folk choirs and numerous individuals who have had visions [...]

It's been a few years (cough) now, but at this distance, I only recall the Taize people showing up in my secondary school.

But then again, it was a monastery and we had ~35 full-time priests living in the block next door -- I don't think they wanted anybody else onsite

Nevyn

i've done the same with mine I found the best way to to teach them about the many different creation myths and the many different 'stories' of different religions at a young age that way they know there is more out there then just the 'stories' taught about in school.

robindch

What age did you start at with these stories?

My own kid's only recently started listening to written stories, before that it was mostly improvised stories in the dark, or a dose of Peppa (yuk) or Shaun the Sheep (yipee!). She's only started to ask interesting questions in the last few months (from around 3 and a half). But we haven't quite got to the "what happens when you die", "who's this god guy that relative X keeps rabbiting on about" etc yet..

.

philologos

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are 4 different christian bibles in this house, two different Korans, an annotated Torah, Vedic texts, the life of Buddha, prose and poetic Edda, a witches bible, the abridged golden bough and LaVey's satanic bible, all in the sitting room and accessible to my kids when ever they want right beside the dictionary and the thesaurus.

Great.

Thaedydal wrote: »

The school has a religion book, we got it for my son and after talking with the teachers didn't opt him out as after going over his book and the teaching text and the topics covered it would be better for him to be included.

Thaedydal wrote: »

There was no bible on the book list and bible study is not part of the lesson plan or circulum for that class. It was in my day in secondary school, we all had to have a certain edition of the good new bible but this is not the case in the school but still an outside group were permitted to coming in and hand out these religious texts and my son was not allowed to refuse to take it.

For RE? -That's extraordinary. Not only were we encouraged to read the Bible for the Leaving Cert as to better understand Judaism and Christianity, we were also encouraged to consult the Qur'an to better understand Islam.

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think there is no point in just pointing a 12/13 child at quotes from the bible to help them tackle issues in life such as and I quote Flesh, fear, lust, sin, pride, greed and revenge'.

Fair enough. You can surely understand why the Gideons would include it though.

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is more where it was handed out and the manner which I have issue with,
but it will also subvert discussions in religion class to be about the bible rather then the proscribed religion book which has view points from all the major world religions.

You should follow it up with the school, and ask that this not happen again. As for all major world religions, there will inevitably be study from the religious texts of those faiths in the curriculum. That's inevitable. Heck, we were even asked to read Albert Camus' works in understanding existentialism while in secondary school.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Yes the school has a christian ethos but it also as a set curriculum and book list.

As a parent would you not expect a school with Christian ethos to have a Christian influence on those who attend?

A key reason why I think more secular schools should be provided. As I said already, you should talk this out with the school principal.

Mark Hamill

Ring up the school and complain about them giving your kid such violent and morally perverse material. When asked to clarify, mention all the parts listed in this post.

Nevyn

It's the new testement plus pslams and proverbs they left all the riding and killing out.

philologos

mikhail wrote: »

Let's try a bad* analogy: imagine a gay teacher were to welcome a representative from Gay Ireland into the class. This person handed out pamphlets about tolerance of sexuality. The teacher told all of the kids to take one, write their name on them and read from them every day. Is this an acceptable action from the teacher? I would argue no, and I'm quite sure that many parents would be very upset by this behaviour.

*All analogies are bad, for some value of bad.

A better analogy than some I've seen on this forum.

Personally, I think a good question to ask is "What did you do at school today?". It generally gets to the nitty gritty of such things. This allows you as a parent to follow up on what has been taught at school and to give your own take.

Admittedly, I don't have much problem with people being taught not to express hatred towards LGBT people. Indeed, I'd encourage this. What I would discourage is claiming that it is wrong to come to the conclusion that marriage is something between a man and a woman.

These are all things that can be challenged at home.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Des Carter

Should it not be up to your child wheather or not he wants to believe the bible? I mean its not like they are teaching it as fact in the class - you said yourself its not in the cirriculum and so I assume the teachers just handed it out.

my brother got one there a few weeks ago and he just threw it in his locker and hasnt looked at it since. Again I done religion for the Junior and Leaving cert and it in no way taught the bible as fact - it even had a large sections on different religions, morality, older religions like zeus and thor and even philosophy from socrates/aristotle/nietzche and Aquinas.

Mark Hamill

Thaedydal wrote: »

It's the new testement plus pslams and proverbs they left all the riding and killing out.

Aww, thats cheating, that is.

Nevyn

robindch wrote: »

What age did you start at with these stories?

My own kid's only recently started listening to written stories, before that it was mostly improvised stories in the dark, or a dose of Peppa (yuk) or Shaun the Sheep (yipee!). She's only started to ask interesting questions in the last few months (from around 3 and a half). But we haven't quite got to the "what happens when you die", "who's this god guy that relative X keeps rabbiting on about" etc yet..

.

Would have been around 4, started with african stories and then on to india, greece and egypt ect, world book of myths and legends was very helpful.

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The school allowed an outside body come into the school and the class room and hand them out, and my son who they know is not christian was no allow refuse one.

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I wasn't informed it was a religious service, if I had of know I would have not have gone out of my way to attend and to make arrangement for child care of my other child to do so.

Nevyn

Des Carter wrote: »

Should it not be up to your child wheather or not he wants to believe the bible? I mean its not like they are teaching it as fact in the class - you said yourself its not in the cirriculum and so I assume the teachers just handed it out.

Why would they? thats the thing and why did they not let him refuse to take it, these are the questions I will be looking to have answers for tomorrow.

Des Carter wrote: »

my brother got one there a few weeks ago and he just threw it in his locker and hasnt looked at it since. Again I done religion for the Junior and Leaving cert and it in no way taught the bible as fact - it even had a large sections on different religions, morality, older religions like zeus and thor and even philosophy from socrates/aristotle/nietzche and Aquinas.

I know which is why I was happy to have him take part in the program instead of opting him out.

lynski

Have to say I would be pissed if there were books given out from a non-educational source, with no reference to the curriculum or with unapproved content.
I am also confused about introducing young children to the religion stories, my 4yr old has never heard any religious stories, not one. we go to the parish hall and they pass a church and statues and that is all they are. it does not have any part in our life, even when his grandad died he has accepted that he is gone, no questions about anything else.
Will prob have to do the nativity story this year as they are doing it in pre-school, but other then that there is no reason to include this at the moment in his life.

liamw

Thaedydal wrote: »

The book has a special index in the front which points to passages to help with life's problems, christian virtue and character.

Des Carter wrote: »

Should it not be up to your child wheather or not he wants to believe the bible? I mean its not like they are teaching it as fact in the class - you said yourself its not in the cirriculum and so I assume the teachers just handed it out.

I take it then that you wouldn't have a problem if the Koran was handed out to your young child with this special index to reference?

Dades

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's bad enough that we have to pay for the monopoly of schools with a Christian ethos without them allowing zealots distribute bibles and force the kids to take ownership of them like the warden in The Shawshank Redemption.

philologos

Actually liamw, if I sent my kids to an Islamic school I would expect this. Or at least that the school through its ethos would promote the virtues of Islam.

When I was at school I remember having the Gideons in at least once to talk about what they did, and to give out New Testaments with Psalms and Proverbs. Indeed the school often used their full translation of the Bible as well in R.E class. School was CofI ethos.

The problem in Thaedydals situation is not enough alternatives. I agree that the Government should do its best to resolve this.

robindch

Reading the responses here from our religious friends, I wonder how many of them would be happy if, say, 99% of the local schools were run by Communists, and members of various factions of the Communist Party attended the school from time to time to hand out kid-sized editions of the works of Marx, Mao, Stalin and Engels, printed on pages decorated with doey-eyed bunnies and fluffy puppies, containing special indexes to help them find useful passages and a firm instruction to keep it in their bag at all times and to read from it each day.

As Des says, perhaps it should be up to the child what to believe? Or as Jakkass and Plowman point out, since it's a school with a Communist "ethos", perhaps the best thing to do is to respect this and to let them fill the child's mind with the holy truth of Communism?

Or should politics be kept out of the classroom?

ColmDawson

That lovely word, 'ethos'.


Anyway, the Gideons came to my secondary school when I was in first year and we were all herded into assembly and given a copy of the NT. I was a bright kid, and I've always been (overly) enthusiastic when it comes to being critical and pointing out flaws.

Ever since I started applying that skepticism to religion, I've felt regret and disappointment whenever I think back to something like religion class (the years when we were actually taught religion), the Gideons' visit, the various masses etc. I know it wasn't really my fault, just the culture I was brought up in, but I wish I could go back in time and destroy that impression that faith was sensible and normal and harmless.

That's why I don't think these texts ought to be presented to kids as truths. No matter how smart the kid is, he has most likely learned from his upbringing that religion is special and doesn't need to be subjected to the full extent of his critical faculties. There's a reasonable chance he'll take it at least slightly seriously.




tl;dr Go and shite. :pac:

Des Carter

liamw wrote: »

I take it then that you wouldn't have a problem if the Koran was handed out to your young child with this special index to reference?

Not at all if it was handed out in the same fashion as the NT was. I remember being handed it when I was in secondary school and it was only a 2min thing. They handed them out and that was it - We were not forced to read it infact 3/4rs of them were flung across the room the second the teacher turned her back. :pac:

robindch wrote: »

Reading the responses here from our religious friends, I wonder how many of them would be happy if, say, 99% of the local schools were run by Communists.

Again if it was done like schools with a Chritian ethos then I wouldnt have a problem as they would also teach about other political view points and not force their views on the students.

robindch wrote: »

and members of various factions of the Communist Party attended the school from time to time to hand out kid-sized editions of the works of Marx, Mao, Stalin and Engels, printed on pages decorated with doey-eyed bunnies and fluffy puppies, containing special indexes to help them find useful passages and a firm instruction to keep it in their bag at all times and to read from it each day.

This shows how you dont know what religion studies is like at schools (secondary at any rate). There is no bunnies or pictures on these books that were given out and the school books also teach other religious beliefs etc. [/QUOTE]

philologos

robindch wrote: »

Reading the responses here from our religious friends, I wonder how many of them would be happy if, say, 99% of the local schools

Jakkass wrote: »

The problem in Thaedydals situation is not enough alternatives. I agree that the Government should do its best to resolve this.

Bad analogy is bad! :pac:

Beruthiel

Thaedydal wrote: »

The school allowed an outside body come into the school and the class room and hand them out, and my son who they know is not christian was no allow refuse one.

I'd be livid. Your son should, at the very least, have had the option to refuse the book.

c_man

That's not on. I remember them giving us something similar in secondary school (it was run by Brothers so no surprise).

I wouldn't be happy in your place at all.

Dades

Des Carter wrote:

robindch wrote: »

Reading the responses here from our religious friends, I wonder how many of them would be happy if, say, 99% of the local schools were run by Communists.

Again if it was done like schools with a Chritian ethos then I wouldnt have a problem as they would also teach about other political view points and not force their views on the students.

I'm sorry but either you misread the question, or I simply don't believe you.

You don't envisage catholic schools as forcing their views on the student? I spent 12 happy years in one but there was no room for doubt as what religion is correct. And allowing bibles to be handed out and forcing students to take, read and value them supports that.

If the equivalent happened in a hypothetical communist or Muslim school your child had to attend of course you would resent it.

robindch

Des Carter wrote: »

This shows how you dont know what religion studies is like at schools (secondary at any rate). There is no bunnies or pictures on these books that were given out and the school books also teach other religious beliefs etc.

Well, let's go out on a (metaphorical) limb here -- would you agree agree that producing a bible which leaves out the justification for war-rape, forced marriage and execution is the equivalent of putting fluffy bunnies on a Marx book?

Jakkass wrote: »

Bad analogy is bad!

Er, I'm not sure if you really took on board the fact that religious organizations control 99% of the schools in this country. That's not an analogy, that's a fact. Avoiding answering the question by saying that the state should shell out billions to build schools that are not under the control of religious organizations is, to say the very least, avoiding the question.

The government is never going to to do this and you know this very well. It is quite disingenuous of you to claim otherwise.

So, if the Communists controlled 99% of the schools in Ireland, would you both be happy to have your kids go there, have them told to read Communist works daily, be told to carry them at all times, and for members of various Communist factions to be given fairly free access to children to say whatever they want?

Or would you be upset about the introduction of politics to schools?

Mark Hamill

Des Carter wrote: »

Should it not be up to your child wheather or not he wants to believe the bible?

Em no? Should it be up to a child what food he eats, what movies they see or whether or not they go to school? You'd have 14 year olds spending all day at home eating cheese puffs and watching porn if you did. Children are very amenable and what they say they want has not necessarily been thought out fully to its conclusions. Besides it would be hard to let the kid make a freely informed decision on his beliefs when he was forced to take, read and value a heavily edited version of the bible.

Truley

From Wikipedia...

For several years, the South Iron R-1 School District in Missouri allowed Gideons International to distribute Bibles to fifth-grade students during class time. Americans United for Separation of Church and State brought suit against the school district, bringing an end to this practice.[6]
In 2009, the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in St. Louis upheld a lower court ruling that found the South Iron district's distribution of Bibles to the schoolchildren in their classrooms was unconstitutional. But the court, in a unanimous decision, ruled that the district can enact a new policy permitting "any printed material" approved by the superintendent to be distributed outside classroom time [1].
The tradition of handing out small Gideon New Testaments continues in many British secondary schools. The British state school system has far less of a separation between church and state compared to the American example above, e.g. Christian prayers and hymns often take place in primary school assemblies.

Personally I don't have a problem with the bibles being distributed it's the way it's done that I have an issue with. The books should be given to the teacher or principle who can say to the class, 'ok kids a group called the Gideons called over today and left some bibles for anyone who wants them. I'm going to leave them on my desk and if you wish you can take one home on your way out.' The children should given a background of who the Gideons are and why and what they do. Alternatively maybe the parents can be informed that the school has the bibles and they can choose themselves to take one home for their children in their own time. The school can keep one or two for its library.

The information should be accessible to children,but it shouldn't be pounced on them the way it was when I was in school. There were far too many incidents while I was in school where groups and individuals were given free reign of a classroom to preach or promote with virtually no prior notice or background information. Personally I think this is why they target schools and people of this age group. Anyone who went to school in the North West in the last decade will definately have been subjected to a few of the 'visionaries' I was :P

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Des Carter

Dades wrote: »

I'm sorry but either you misread the question, or I simply don't believe you.

You don't envisage catholic schools as forcing their views on the student? I spent 12 happy years in one but there was no room for doubt as what religion is correct. And allowing bibles to be handed out and forcing students to take, read and value them supports that.

If the equivalent happened in a hypothetical communist or Muslim school your child had to attend of course you would resent it.

Ok I dont know how long ago that was but in schools today this is not the case. as I said earlier

Des Carter wrote: »

I done religion for the Junior and Leaving cert and it in no way taught the bible as fact - it even had a large sections on different religions, morality, older religions like zeus and thor and even philosophy from socrates/aristotle/nietzche and Aquinas.

and they were all taught equally and christianity is not shoved down students throats as fact - although im sure it happens in some schools.

Dades

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is listed as a "interdenominational, co-educational school...

Nobody is "bound" by a particular ethos in this case it seems.

Des Carter wrote: »

Ok I dont know how long ago that was but in schools today this is not the case. as I said earlier.

Well, it was about 18 yrs ago - so maybe things have changed. I'll find out when my eldest starts in a few years!

robindch

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Fair enough -- you'd be unhappy that your child was being politicized by people and ideas over which you had little or no control, but you'd go along with it.

In which case, can I conclude that you believe that the right of a political organization to use schools to gain access to children and to politicize them trumps the right of a child to receive an education which is free from politicization?

Des Carter

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Em no? Should it be up to a child what food he eats, what movies they see or whether or not they go to school? You'd have 14 year olds spending all day at home eating cheese puffs and watching porn if you did. Children are very amenable and what they say they want has not necessarily been thought out fully to its conclusions. Besides it would be hard to let the kid make a freely informed decision on his beliefs when he was forced to take, read and value a heavily edited version of the bible.

1, Forcing your beliefs on a child is wrong - this includes the belief that there is no God, this is essentially indoctrination and is just as wrong as Christians forcing their beliefs on their children.

2.A 14yr old is not a brain-dead zombie who will follow blindly, at this age they are able to think for themselves - of course they are still impressionable but it is more based on peer pressure (which often leads to activities that are not promoted by the bible).

3. How has this been heavily edited - at least more than any other New Testament?

4.How the hell are they FORCED to read and value it - it was given out and that was it - The child can choose to read it or they can choose to throw it away.

des carter

des carter wrote: »

4.How the hell are they FORCED to read and value it - it was given out and that was it - The child can choose to read it or they can choose to throw it away.

They were instructed to put their names on it and read it every day. This is coming from the same authority figure who gives them homework to do every day and they get in trouble if it's not done.
Now you and I as adults may know instantly there's a difference, but these are children who probably don't.
That is the problem.

I would have no issue with the bibles being given out or as truley said, "they're on the desk, feel free to take one".
But going so far as not being able to refuse AND being instructed to have your name on it and read it every day is a big step too far.

edit: wrong person showed up on the quote... ;O

Galvasean

I remember when I was in secondary school some group did give us a new testament with an index for 'issues' that would relate to us. Must have been the Gideons.
Next day pages of it were found stuck to walls all over the school while many books ended up in the bin. In other words none of us gave a toss.
It's quite telling that they don't give out the old testament. All those tricky questions; "Human sacrifice... slavery... genocide?!!?!?!?!?!?"

Another time when the Passio of the Crist was doing the rounds in the cinema a priest came in and gave us each a book about the symbolism and FAQs about the film. it was actually a pretty good read. It actuially came in quite handy reading into a film like that since we would have to do that as part of the Leaving cert. (albeit with Witness, not The Passion)

Mark Hamill

Des Carter wrote: »

1, Forcing your beliefs on a child is wrong - this includes the belief that there is no God, this is essentially indoctrination and is just as wrong as Christians forcing their beliefs on their children.

Has zero relevance with what I posted.

Des Carter wrote: »

2.A 14yr old is not a brain-dead zombie who will follow blindly, at this age they are able to think for themselves - of course they are still impressionable but it is more based on peer pressure (which often leads to activities that are not promoted by the bible).

And thats why we let 14 year olds vote...oh wait we dont. But at least there is no age classificiation above 12A on films...oh wait there is. But we recognise a 14 year olds ability to make a mature decision to have sex..no wait not that either. They can choose to have elective surgery by themselves of cour...oh wait they cant choose that either.
14 year olds aren't brain dead, but they aren't exactly repsonsible adults who can be expected to make important decisions by themselves (which is why we legally restrict them from doing so in so many areas).

Des Carter wrote: »

3. How has this been heavily edited - at least more than any other New Testament?

Because it leaves out the Old Testament? The OT is also part of the bible, no matter how much christians would like to retcon it as non-canon fan fiction.

Des Carter wrote: »

4.How the hell are they FORCED to read and value it - it was given out and that was it - The child can choose to read it or they can choose to throw it away.

Read the first post again:
they came into the community school gave them out and he was instructed by the teacher to take one and to put his name on it and to keep it in his bag and the class was told to read a bit from it every day.

MagicMarker

Des Carter wrote: »

Ok I dont know how long ago that was but in schools today this is not the case. as I said earlier



and they were all taught equally and christianity is not shoved down students throats as fact - although im sure it happens in some schools.

Well which is it?

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Mark Hamill

bluewolf wrote: »

I would have no issue with the bibles being given out

Even that I would have problems with. If the bible, why not also the koran, the torah, dianetics, the god delusion (teach the controversy :rolleyes:) or any of the 100 or so other religious texts listed here.
If you want the kids to make an honest decision about religion they need ot be let make one, presenting them with one choice in such an authoritarian setting is going to massively sway them (possibly away from the book) so its just going to bias them.
Teach them that there are other religions and the basics of what makes a religion if you must, but with the internet and full free access to most religious texts on line, they dont need help to pick one.