New members Handicap

Villain

I joined a club last year and handed in 3 cards and was given a Handicap of 23. I've now moved clubs as a few mates were joining this club and obviously my GUI Cert will have my current handicap of 23.5 so I will be playing off that in my new club.

The question I have is my mates are been told by older members of the club that they won't get a handicap any higher than 18 starting off no matter how bad the 3 cards are.

Looking on the GUI site I see that the Handicap committee can reduce the handicap given based on:

•Time of year and prevailing weather conditions when cards submitted.
•Previous playing history and any handicap previously held at Home Club or elsewhere.
•Information from peers.

One of my mates is only starting to the play the game and based on his first 2 cards should get a handicap of about 24, I think it would be very unfair to start him on 18 as senior membes have told him.

Is this common that new members won't get a handicap higher than 18 no matter what they score?

hades

I just got my handicap of 18 after submitting 3 woeful cards of around 105 each, was sort of told the same thing, generally no-one gets a handicap greater than 18.

Villain

hades wrote: »

I just got my handicap of 18 after submitting 3 woeful cards of around 105 each, was sort of told the same thing, generally no-one gets a handicap greater than 18.

105 wouldn't be that bad, remember the worst score you get is 2 over on a hole for handicap purposes.

My mate has had 120's

Webbs

Most people would improve rapidly when you start out and are playing more regularly, the hcap limit of 18 is usually to prevent those who drop rapidly from cleaning up at competition time.
Obviously if you are playing for 6months or more and you arent improving then the hcap committee could review your situation

Villain

Webbs wrote: »

Most people would improve rapidly when you start out and are playing more regularly, the hcap limit of 18 is usually to prevent those who drop rapidly from cleaning up at competition time.
Obviously if you are playing for 6months or more and you arent improving then the hcap committee could review your situation

Umm I can understand what you say but I mean I know many golfers who have been playing for years and are pretty steady golfers who are off 18 ok they might go down to 16 or 17 every now and again but starting someone off 18 who should be off 24 isn't going to help of encourage the player to take part in compeitions.

I mean if he starts on 18 he would have to play an awful lot of single competitions to get near even 21!

I just find it very unfair that clubs don't give new members a correct handicap based on GUI's rules. I mean if a member plays well below his/her handicap they will be cut and back down very quickly.

hades

I've always found the handicap system a bit odd anyway, since i'm back i've played with some folks who i would consider well above average, and they almost always have a handicap of around 17. These guys are almost always going for par on any given hole and would only get a handful of bogeys on a given round.

Then again tho, do these people actually hand in their cards afterwards.... and are they self-handicapping for the "big ones" which does go on.

I suppose in relation to this scenario, i'd just hope that the committee would give back shots as quickly as they like to take them away.

Villain

Well the problem is you can only get .1 back for each compeition, unless they agreed to review it but they don't usually do that I'm told

Webbs

Villain wrote: »

I mean if he starts on 18 he would have to play an awful lot of single competitions to get near even 21!
.

Thats where a good hcap secretary/committee should look at that persons cards over a few months then reassess their hcap.
Its better to have the odd person given a hcap of 18 who say after 6months is struggling to score a hcap of 24, than a lot of people flying it from 24 down to 18 and lower

Villain

Webbs wrote: »

Thats where a good hcap secretary/committee should look at that persons cards over a few months then reassess their hcap.
Its better to have the odd person given a hcap of 18 who say after 6months is struggling to score a hcap of 24, than a lot of people flying it from 24 down to 18 and lower

So in other words a lot of clubs are just ignoring the GUI rules to make sure a new member doesn't win.

I'm glad my former club was following the rules.

charlieIRL

hades wrote: »

I just got my handicap of 18 after submitting 3 woeful cards of around 105 each, was sort of told the same thing, generally no-one gets a handicap greater than 18.

Not true, my first handicap was 22.

HonSec

A lot of golf clubs seem to think that they can flout the rules of CONGU. If the cards returned by your friend entitle him to a handicap of 24, and the committee of the club have no information leading them to believe that he should be given a lower handicap, they are obliged under CONGU rules to award a 24 handicap.

If it is found that any club is awarding a set handicap to all new applicants, such as the 18 mentioned, this club would be running the risk of being dis-affiliated from the golfing union or at least face being suspended for a period of time.

Anatom

I only handed in my first three cards to get a handicap last May. Got a call from the Comp / Handicap Sec a couple of days later to say I'd been given 18.

Most people I've spoken to since have said that that's what's always given out as a starting handicap. You go up or down (or not) from there...

harpsman

some clubs pretty stingy with new hcaps alright and wont give highr than 18
others bit too generous though and i know people who were given 26 to start-i think this is too high.
i reckon if you handed in 3 cards of 105+ then 20/21 is fair starting hcap

Nicklaus

This is a hard one to call. By the book, when a person who leaves one Club and joins another Club, his GUI handicap should come with him. But it depends on the Club that he's come from. Unfortunately, some of the newer Clubs that were established during the C[URL="file://\\eltic"]eltic[/URL] Tiger days have a reputation for being overly generous with their handicapping policies. The GUI is at fault here as it has allowed this situation to escalate because of financial considerations. After all, the GUI gets something like €20 per golfer who is affiliated. That's a lot of money and goes a long way towards paying for their luxurious Acamedy in Carton demesne.

couerdelion

I can see how this may work from both sides (I'm just about to hand my three cards in).

My initial 3 cards were a 106, 107, 106 and even taking into account a maximum double bogey allowance I'd still have been over a 100 on each. If I was given a handicap of 18 I would have been gutted and would never have even thought of playing in opens.

If I'd have been given a handicap of 28 I would have thought that would had been fair. However in my next round I shot a 96 and think that I can easily improve on that. My next round was another 107 so perhaps the 96 was me playing to the best of my abilities, so which way should my hanidcap go?

Surely it's just a case of setting a handicap that is low enough so I don't have an unfair advantage, but not one that is so low that I can't play to it in the foreseeable future or that will put me off playing competitions. Perhaps 3 shots better than my best round but with a review after all competitions (where I beat the handicap) for the next 6 months. I know it puts a bit of work on the h/c committee but at least then it's a little fairer on everyone. if people are wanting to manage their handicap then they will but not everyone should be punished for it.

Nicklaus

Yes, as I said...it's a tricky one. As a Handicap Secretary, I would take three things into consideration when assessing a new member to my Club who had no previous handicap - (i) the scores of the 3 cards submitted; (ii) the person who signed those cards; and (iii) the age of the new member. And as I've already indicated, a prospective new member who's coming from one of the 'newer' Clubs would be under very close scrutiny. I know this is discrimination but I'm being honest here. Without wishing to sound boastful, I am a man with almost 40 years experience playing single handicap golf.

Villain

Nicklaus wrote: »

Yes, as I said...it's a tricky one. As a Handicap Secretary, I would take three things into consideration when assessing a new member to my Club who had no previous handicap - (i) the scores of the 3 cards submitted; (ii) the person who signed those cards; and (iii) the age of the new member. And as I've already indicated, a prospective new member who's coming from one of the 'newer' Clubs would be under very close scrutiny. I know this is discrimination but I'm being honest here. Without wishing to sound boastful, I am a man with almost 40 years experience playing single handicap golf.

To be honest I find it very annoying how people assume someone who has a low handicap knows the rules better than someone with a higher handicap.

I’ve often told a mate a ruling only to play with him next week to be told “I was asking a golfer who plays off 4 and he says your wrong” and then been forced to produce the rule book.

I also played someone off 9 and I hooked my drive very badly into a load of bushes about 20 feet to my left so I hit a provisional and hit a great shot and declared my first lost and he said “you can’t do that” went looking for it and I carried on, he found it and I said I didn’t care I had declared it lost.
He got very smart and said “you think you know the rules off 23”, I said to him what I have said to others, when I decide to start playing a sport I learn the rules first.

Don’t ever assume someone who plays off a low Handicap knows the rules better than you

Nicklaus

You're absolutely right about the handicap of a golfer being no indication of whether he is well versed on the intricate Rules of Golf. They're not easy to comprehend at times. Regarding your 'lost ball' incident - check out my comments on the thread 'Avoiding Mistakes'. Regarding my 40 years experience of playing recreational and competitive golf - does that not count for anything in your eyes?

Villain

Nicklaus wrote: »

You're absolutely right about the handicap of a golfer being no indication of whether he is well versed on the intricate Rules of Golf. They're not easy to comprehend at times. Regarding your 'lost ball' incident - check out my comments on the thread 'Avoiding Mistakes'. Regarding my 40 years experience of playing recreational and competitive golf - does that not count for anything in your eyes?

Of course it does but it doesn't mean you know the rules better than me or any other person who takes up the game and takes the time to know the rules.

Its the same with the handicap, several members have told my friend they "Can't" start with a handicap higher than 18, those people have been playing for years some on very low handicap's yet if I asked them how the CONGU handicap system worked they obviously don't know.

I don't mean to be smart but I read a quote once which I think is very appropriate when it comes to some golfers:

"Never confuse Experience with Knowledge"

Nicklaus

Touché!

Jul3s

Just to be clear your "friend" off 9 was correct, you can not declare a ball lost.

Villain

Jul3s wrote: »

Just to be clear your "friend" off 9 was correct, you can not declare a ball lost.

Really, care to explain? My rules book says I was correct?

Nicklaus

Interesting. Please quote the rule and its source.

Villain

I'll have a look for the rule book at lunch, but from memory it gives 3 possible reasons for a ball to be declared lost.
1. Five minutes of searching has elapsed
2. Player declares ball lost.
3. Player is unable to identify Ball as his

Jul3s

Villain wrote: »

Really, care to explain? My rules book says I was correct?

From the randa website, have a look at the 2nd question in the FAQ section (you'll have to scroll down in the section in the middle of the page to find it). http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=27&subRuleNum=1

PhilipMarlowe

You could do a search on this forum for "declaring a ball lost" because it's a turkey that comes around more often than christmas... Though I must admit, never in as cute a set of circumstances

Nicklaus

Thanks for that clarification of the rule. The Rules of Golf are complex but, as a good 'rule of thumb', if a decision doesn't 'feel quite right', it probably isn't.

Villain

My apologies I looked at the page I had marked in the R&A Rule book and it was Rule 28, which is actually under the rule "unplayable" not lost. Because I hit the ball into bushes I declared the Ball Unplayable and the row was over who decides the ball is unplayable and the rule states that its the sole decision of the player.

I found this under exception of Rule 27 Lost Ball

couerdelion

Just to chuck in my 2c's worth...

If a ball may be lost I can play a provisional (Rule 27-1) and then proceed "under penalty of stroke and distance" if the original ball is lost*.

a ball is deemed lost if a player makes a stroke at a provisional ball at a point deemed to be closer to the hole than the place where the original ball is likelyto be or the player puts another ball in play under "penalty of stroke and distance"

Surely that means you are allowed to call a ball lost as you are accepting the stroke and distance penalty? Or do you have to spend the allotted 5 mins searching?

PhilipMarlowe

No you don't "have to" spend 5 minutes looking.
But suppose I was playing you in a match and we're playing a par 3. You hit a tee shot that looked like it may have gone into some trouble but it's to an elevated green so you can't tell for sure where it ended up and you call a provisional on the tee. You hit the provisional really nice.
When you get up to the green, you can't see the original but your provisional is 6 inches from the hole which might be good enough for a half because I'm in the bunker.
Under those circumstances, I'd be entitled to look for your original in the bushes because if found then you'd have to either play it or declare it unplayable and either drop or go back to the tee. Your provisional becomes nothing once the original is found. Chances are you'll struggle to make a 4 (hey, you could still make a 3 too but you know what I mean).

If you're playing in a singles strokeplay event and you hit a poor drive into trouble... call a provisional and then cream another drive straight down the middle, you might decide not to bother looking for the original. In those circumstances, most other players wouldn't bother looking for it either but if it is found, you must deal with it which can involve a trip back to the tee box in some circumstances because a possible unplayable drop isn't helpful.

couerdelion

Licksy wrote: »

No you don't "have to" spend 5 minutes looking.
But suppose I was playing you in a match and we're playing a par 3. You hit a tee shot that looked like it may have gone into some trouble but it's to an elevated green so you can't tell for sure where it ended up and you call a provisional on the tee. You hit the provisional really nice.
When you get up to the green, you can't see the original but your provisional is 6 inches from the hole which might be good enough for a half because I'm in the bunker.
Under those circumstances, I'd be entitled to look for your original in the bushes because if found then you'd have to either play it or declare it unplayable and either drop or go back to the tee. Your provisional becomes nothing once the original is found. Chances are you'll struggle to make a 4 (hey, you could still make a 3 too but you know what I mean).

If you're playing in a singles strokeplay event and you hit a poor drive into trouble... call a provisional and then cream another drive straight down the middle, you might decide not to bother looking for the original. In those circumstances, most other players wouldn't bother looking for it either but if it is found, you must deal with it which can involve a trip back to the tee box in some circumstances because a possible unplayable drop isn't helpful.

Okay, but if I declare it lost, take penalty and stroke and then play my third stroke off the tee without declaring a provisional that's fine?

PhilipMarlowe

Regarding new handicaps, I don't agree with having a set handicap for new members.
You need to look at the cards and sometimes you'll see a run of decent holes which might indicate a potential thats better than the score suggests. It isn't as simple as reducing down bad holes to a double and then subtracting the SSS from the adjusted card = new handicap. If there's 4 birdies on the card but he shoots 100 then he's not going to get 18+
However, with some cards you just couldn't expect a guy to play to 18 even with a large dose of improvement so ~24 or whatever would be more fitting. Generally it's what the cards say but sometimes it's a bit less.

PhilipMarlowe

couerdelion wrote: »

Okay, but if I declare it lost, take penalty and stroke and then play my third stroke off the tee without declaring a provisional that's fine?

You are not declaring the ball lost... there's no such thing, it has nothing to bear under the rules.

By virtue of you playing another ball from the tee without declaring that it is to be a provisional ball, then that ball becomes the ball in play and the original is "lost". You are always entitled to re-hit under stroke and distance penalty so if you don't call it a provisional this is assumed to be what you are doing.

Or of you do delcare it a provisional and then walk up the fairway and hit it again from a point closer to the hole than the original was likely to be, then that makes the original "lost".

Or if you do declare it a provisional and then hit it up the fairway, stop to look for the original, spend 5 minutes searching but can't find it, then the original is "lost" (duh!) (unless it's in the hole) and your provisional is now the ball in play.

Nicklaus

I wouldn't allow anyone to play a second ball without ascertaining whether it was a provisional. Sometimes, a player may 'forget' to deem his second ball 'a provisional'. Usually, this is a genuine mistake. But there are 'cute' players who know the rule about not saying that the second ball is 'provisional'. Always, before addressing the ball, I would ask him to indicate whether it was 'a provisional' that he was playing. This is something that I would do automatically, whether he be friend or foe. I also wouldn't allow him to 'declare/say/state/indicate/guess' his ball lost without him first making an attempt to find it.

GreeBo

Nicklaus wrote: »

I also wouldn't allow him to 'declare/say/state/indicate/guess' his ball lost without him first making an attempt to find it.

Assuming its their turn to play, there is nothing you can do to prevent them for making the provisional ball the ball in play. Short of running off and searching for and finding their ball before they play the provo (on or past the point where the original was assumed to be)

Villain

My understanding of the rule, and the player agreed when I showed him the rule book, was if was fair to say my ball was in an unplayable area even if found so by taking a penalty and playing again from the tee I was within the rules.

If I had said I was playing a provisional and he found the ball then I would have had to declare it unplayable and go back and hit another ball.

The main argument with the player was that he didn't believe it was the sole decision of the player to decide that the ball was unplayable, which it is.

Nicklaus

In 40 years of playing golf, I've never had a problem with this rule. I politely tell them that "Don't worry, I think I know where your ball is, we should be able to find it". The genuine guys will go looking for their ball. The 'cute' boys, who don't want to find the ball because they'll be at a disadvantage, soon realise that the game is up, and also go looking for it. I've never come upon a guy who is so obstinate that he'll refuse to look for his ball. Why? Because he knows that it's the proper thing to do. QED.

Villain

Nicklaus wrote: »

In 40 years of playing golf, I've never had a problem with this rule. I politely tell them that "Don't worry, I think I know where your ball is, we should be able to find it". The genuine guys will go looking for their ball. The 'cute' boys, who don't want to find the ball because they'll be at a disadvantage, soon realise that the game is up, and also go looking for it. I've never come upon a guy who is so obstinate that he'll refuse to look for his ball. Why? Because he knows that it's the proper thing to do. QED.

But even if he finds it he can just declare it unplayable and go back to the tee and hit another?

Nicklaus

Villain wrote: »

But even if he finds it he can just declare it unplayable and go back to the tee and hit another?

Correct.

Villain

Nicklaus wrote: »

Correct.

So why go through the charade?

Nicklaus

Because it's the correct way to play Golf - by the arcane and convoluted Rules designed by the RandA! Irksome I know, but that's how it is.:cool:

Nicklaus

To sum up: there are three options for you when you hit a bad shot into 'lost ball country'. (1) Play a second ball, declare it a provisional ball, in the hope that you can find the original one in a good lie (most common); (2) Play a second ball, don't say anything and see what happens - if your original ball is found in a good place, just play it as most people don't know the Rule or else play your second ball and call it a provisional; (3) Declare your ball 'unplayable, even if found' and hit a second ball under penalty of 1 stroke and distance. 99% of golfers choose (1) when really the smarter move is to choose the third option most of the time - especially if you're familiar with the course. The second option is the 'cute hoor' option.

Sandwlch

Nicklaus wrote: »

To sum up: there are three options for you when you hit a bad shot into 'lost ball country'. (1) Play a second ball, declare it a provisional ball, in the hope that you can find the original one in a good lie (most common); (2) Play a second ball, don't say anything and see what happens - if your original ball is found in a good place, just play it as most people don't know the Rule or else play your second ball and call it a provisional; (3) Declare your ball 'unplayable, even if found' and hit a second ball under penalty of 1 stroke and distance. 99% of golfers choose (1) when really the smarter move is to choose the third option most of the time - especially if you're familiar with the course. The second option is the 'cute hoor' option.

Jack, the smarterness of option 3 eludes me. Can you elucidate ?
Are you not throwing away fo no gain, the (slim admittedly) possibility that the first ball might not be unplayable, but in fact, very playable.

Nicklaus

Sandwlch wrote: »

Jack, the smarterness of option 3 eludes me. Can you elucidate ?
Are you not throwing away fo no gain, the (slim admittedly) possibility that the first ball might not be unplayable, but in fact, very playable.

You're quite correct. It's only smart if you know the course very well and you know full well that you haven't a 'snowballs chance in hell' of finding a decent playable lie. It saves you the hassle of having to go back to your original spot to hit again.

You see, hitting a provisional ball only applies when you might have lost a ball, not if you deem it unplayable.

Villain

Nicklaus wrote: »

Because it's the correct way to play Golf - by the arcane and convoluted Rules designed by the RandA! Irksome I know, but that's how it is.:cool:

Look in the R&A Rule Book on Definition of Lost Ball and look at "D":

If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball that has not been found is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or is in an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.

GreeBo

Villain wrote: »

So why go through the charade?

But its not a charade.
He has to find if before he can declare it unplayable. Otherwise you could have two balls in play and get to choose between both of them, golf doesnt work this way, there is only ever one ball in play. (+ any number of balls provisionally in play)

GreeBo

Nicklaus wrote: »

To sum up: there are three options for you when you hit a bad shot into 'lost ball country'. (1) Play a second ball, declare it a provisional ball, in the hope that you can find the original one in a good lie (most common); (2) Play a second ball, don't say anything and see what happens - if your original ball is found in a good place, just play it as most people don't know the Rule or else play your second ball and call it a provisional; (3) Declare your ball 'unplayable, even if found' and hit a second ball under penalty of 1 stroke and distance. 99% of golfers choose (1) when really the smarter move is to choose the third option most of the time - especially if you're familiar with the course. The second option is the 'cute hoor' option.

I'm assuming these are your Tongue in Cheek interpretation and that you are not advising people to do either 2) or 3) since they dont exist in the rules of golf. The act of hitting a subsequent ball without declaring it a provisional makes it the ball in play and any previous balls are deemed lost, not unplayable.

The smartest way to play is to hit a provo if you think your first ball might not be findable. If it is found but not playable then you go back to the tee. This is the correct course of action and leaves you with the most options.

Villain

Wrong I'm afraid, check the rules, D under Lost Ball Definition

GreeBo

Villain wrote: »

Wrong I'm afraid, check the rules, D under Lost Ball Definition

Who/What is wrong?

Villain

GreeBo wrote: »

But its not a charade.
He has to find if before he can declare it unplayable.

Thats what I was referring to in my previous post sorry I didn't quote.

GreeBo

Villain wrote: »

Thats what I was referring to in my previous post sorry I didn't quote.

Fair enough, but you have to either find it or be virtually certain that it is in abnormal ground conditions/obstruction. Unless you are playing with a gallery I dont think this one crops up too often.