New dog laws - tail docking?

kaiser sauze

OK, lots of hearsay on the street about this one, but I was wondering if the dog laws that were voted in earlier this year had anything to say about tail docking?

I know that before the law was passed tail docking was still legal here, but has anything changed?

What are peoples' views on tail docking?

mymo

There is a thread further down about Jack russells and tail docking, why not take a look there, should be all the info you need.
Here's the link.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056071681

pokertalk

kaiser sauze wrote: »

OK, lots of hearsay on the street about this one, but I was wondering if the dog laws that were voted in earlier this year had anything to say about tail docking?


What are peoples' views on tail docking?

if ya use the search function there was a thread on ear pinning and tail docking was covered in it

Bubs99

I think docking tails is wrong...whats the big deal about cutting off your pups tail...ooooh, does it make them look nicer? (sarcastic tone).
I dont know how anyone can do this to tiny pups. 100% wrong and so painful for them...just imagine how they feel.
Dogs have tails for a reason and they need them to send signals to us humans and to other dogs (body language/animal behaviour) and to feel things.
Whoever is breeding out there and is considering on docking the litters tails...please dont. Also and thankfully, very few vets do this anymore so dont even try and do it yourselves at home incase of nerve damage and infection.

kaiser sauze

The other thread did not seem to have any pointers to the new dog laws though, which is a central part of the thread topic.

andreac

It is still legal to dock in Ireland.

pokertalk

andreac wrote: »

It is still legal to dock in Ireland.

i would like to dock my dogs tail he is a lab x
mastiff but it would look a bit mad.plus i love his tail but he is a tail wagging mad thing and he constantly knocks it off walls edges of doors etc and because of it has lumps on it. what do yez think

kaiser sauze

Bubs99 wrote: »

I think docking tails is wrong...whats the big deal about cutting off your pups tail...ooooh, does it make them look nicer? (sarcastic tone).
I dont know how anyone can do this to tiny pups. 100% wrong and so painful for them...just imagine how they feel.
Dogs have tails for a reason and they need them to send signals to us humans and to other dogs (body language/animal behaviour) and to feel things.
Whoever is breeding out there and is considering on docking the litters tails...please dont. Also and thankfully, very few vets do this anymore so dont even try and do it yourselves at home incase of nerve damage and infection.

If done within the first few days, on the 3rd or 4th day preferably, there is little pain as nerve endings are still in development.

It would be an exceptionally bad dock to have any risk of infection. The mother will keep any wound clean.

kaiser sauze

pokertalk wrote: »

i would like to dock my dogs tail he is a lab x
mastiff but it would look a bit mad.plus i love his tail but he is a tail wagging mad thing and he constantly knocks it off walls edges of doors etc and because of it has lumps on it. what do yez think

I have to admit that I would find it odd to ever see a docked labrador. My family has had several through the years, none were ever docked.

If you have decided to dock, maybe shorten it a little rather than a full dock?

Are Mastiff's tails normally docked?

pokertalk

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I have to admit that I would find it odd to ever see a docked labrador. My family has had several through the years, none were ever docked.

If you have decided to dock, maybe shorten it a little rather than a full dock?

Are Mastiff's tails normally docked?

the bumps are more half way up so doing the tip would probably make no deference. i would nt care how bad he looks really once he is happy.it does not seem to bother him at the moment but still it could get worse with time

Discodog

As posted in the other thread the organisation that represents Vets in Ireland class any docking as mutilation & will impose penalties on any Vet found carrying it out. Docking will become illegal if & when we get an Animal Welfare Bill.

Whilst docking is not technically illegal one could prosecute on the basis of unnecessary suffering. This normally depends of expert Vet evidence. However the Vets have declared the practice to be cruel & would say so in Court where as the defendant would have problems getting their own Vet to testify.

kaiser sauze

pokertalk wrote: »

the bumps are more half way up so doing the tip would probably make no deference. i would nt care how bad he looks really once he is happy.it does not seem to bother him at the moment but still it could get worse with time

What age is your dog? I am guessing he is an adult/young adult at least?

If you chose to dock, this would require surgery, and it is surgery that only a Vet could do. I would not do that unless you feel that your dog is suffering.

john t

It is a form of mutilation and is wrong. Dogs have tails for wagging, balance when running and turning .. Dogs with doc`d tails should need vet cert too prove it was done for medical reason not visual reason..

Discodog

Mods just a thought but does this need merging.

pokertalk

kaiser sauze wrote: »

What age is your dog? I am guessing he is an adult/young adult at least?

If you chose to dock, this would require surgery, and it is surgery that only a Vet could do. I would not do that unless you feel that your dog is suffering.

he is 2 1/2 .im not going to get it done as he is in no discomfort now with it so there is no point. but in the future it might have to go:eek:

pokertalk

Discodog wrote: »

Mods just a thought but does this need merging.

+1

kaiser sauze

john t wrote: »

It is a form of mutilation and is wrong. Dogs have tails for wagging, balance when running and turning .. Dogs with doc`d tails should need vet cert too prove it was done for medical reason not visual reason..

I do not know any Vet that would just dock a tail on an owner's whim.

As regards the rest of your post, that is your opinion.

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I do not know any Vet that would just dock a tail on an owner's whim.

As regards the rest of your post, that is your opinion.

It is not just his opinion. If you look on the other thread where this post should probably be you will be able to read the actual guidelines issued to Vets where they refer to docking as unnecessary mutilation.

kaiser sauze

Discodog wrote: »

It is not just his opinion. If you look on the other thread where this post should probably be you will be able to read the actual guidelines issued to Vets where they refer to docking as unnecessary mutilation.

That is veterinary guidelines, not the law.

john t

Yep my opinion, and my opinion is i think/ feel it is wrong. Would`nt alter or change apperance in any shape or form of any of gods creatures...

Discodog

kaiser sauze wrote: »

That is veterinary guidelines, not the law.

We are going round in Circles & posting on two threads is making it worse. It would be much better to continue on the other thread.

I have answered you there.

Bubs99

Tail docking is totally wrong!
I have seen it being done when I was small and the pups were only days old and screeched in agony when the tails were chopped. It was awful to see, (they were yorkies).
My dad also has a yorkie and the dog has a full tail, people have often commented on him being a yorkie with a full one but he looks adorable, it suits him and he uses it alot, when hes happy, when he's warning off other dogs, when he's looking at things etc etc. When he's groomed, its all fluffy and trimmed well and he loves to strut his stuff while he walks.

Discodog

We've moved to the original thread

kaiser sauze

Bubs99 wrote: »

Tail docking is totally wrong!
I have seen it being done when I was small and the pups were only days old and screeched in agony when the tails were chopped. It was awful to see, (they were yorkies).
My dad also has a yorkie and the dog has a full tail, people have often commented on him being a yorkie with a full one but he looks adorable, it suits him and he uses it alot, when hes happy, when he's warning off other dogs, when he's looking at things etc etc. When he's groomed, its all fluffy and trimmed well and he loves to strut his stuff while he walks.

The tails were chopped? With a knife or similar??

Who would dock tails in this way?

Bubs99

I was only 7 and a we were at a pals farm, the guys dog just had a litter of 4 pups and a friend of his came in with a big knife, like a butchers and chop straight down. It was awful, the pups screeched and moved around and there was a good bit of blood. But apparently, they all went to homes later.
Ill never forget it...so im against!

kaiser sauze

Bubs99 wrote: »

I was only 7 and a we were at a pals farm, the guys dog just had a litter of 4 pups and a friend of his came in with a big knife, like a butchers and chop straight down. It was awful, the pups screeched and moved around and there was a good bit of blood. But apparently, they all went to homes later.
Ill never forget it...so im against!

I've never heard of tails being docked in this way, that is terrible.

Bubs99

it was terrible. You know those knives they use to chop bones, i think the guy used that and they were tiny, they could fit in your palm, yorkie pups.
im glad my yorkie has his full tail, its gorgeous, reminds me of a fluffy squirrels or a skunks when hes groomed, all trimmed and fluffed up with a brush.
I think hes proud of it...LOL! You should see the way he struts. So cute so I think it should be illegal...tail docking.
Ive seen boxers, staffies and greyhounds with full ones and they look lovely.

Shanao

I absolutely despise docking!! Working in a vets a few years back, I had to witness what was probably one of the most horrible things I have seen. A man and his son came in with their twelve week old boxer and asked the vet to dock it!! Both the vet and myself asked them repeatedly to reconsider but they insisted on having it done. I watched it being done... the poor little mite screamed its head off when the bone was clipped. I actually felt sick for about a week afterwards. To be perfectly honest, other than medical reasons, I see absolutely no reason to dock. A lot of people have even said to me that seeing dogs like rotties and dobermans with their full tails actually makes the dogs look a lot more approachable. And at least its a lot easier to read their signals.

kaiser sauze

Shanao wrote: »

I absolutely despise docking!! Working in a vets a few years back, I had to witness what was probably one of the most horrible things I have seen. A man and his son came in with their twelve week old boxer and asked the vet to dock it!! Both the vet and myself asked them repeatedly to reconsider but they insisted on having it done. I watched it being done... the poor little mite screamed its head off when the bone was clipped. I actually felt sick for about a week afterwards. To be perfectly honest, other than medical reasons, I see absolutely no reason to dock. A lot of people have even said to me that seeing dogs like rotties and dobermans with their full tails actually makes the dogs look a lot more approachable. And at least its a lot easier to read their signals.

Hang on...

12 weeks???

No anaesthetic???

That Vet should be docked himself. :mad: You worked with a prize lemon there.

lrushe

john t wrote: »

Dogs have tails for wagging, balance when running and turning .QUOTE]

I have a docked dog who does agility, having no tail hasn't hampered her in this field, she's as sure footed as any Boarder Collie. Dogs with docked tails compensate by rearranging their centre of gravity much like a dog who loses a limb.

Discodog

lrushe wrote: »

john t wrote: »

Dogs have tails for wagging, balance when running and turning .QUOTE]

I have a docked dog who does agility, having no tail hasn't hampered her in this field, she's as sure footed as any Boarder Collie. Dogs with docked tails compensate by rearranging their centre of gravity much like a dog who loses a limb.

A dog with three legs will compensate. The following is from Veterinary Ireland:

"The tail is not a limb but an appendage and is the end part of the spinal column comprising approximately 20 coccygeal vertebrae, muscle, nerves and a blood supply. The muscular structure plays an important role in body shape, function and communication.

The tail is used as a counterbalance in various locomotory activities: running, walking and squatting to defecate. The tail is used to communicate the mood and attitude of the dog: its emotional state, assertion of social status, acceptance of a subordinate or equal position, or willingness to fight. We also believe that the use of the tail to communicate is essential to a dog’s well being."

lrushe

That's well and good but my reply was specifically refering to the poster who said tails were for "balance when running and turning". While that is true I was pointing out that a docked dog can do this just as well as a tailed dog just like a three legged dog can still out run a four legged one ie. dogs can compensate for a missing limb or appendage.

Shanao

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Hang on...

12 weeks???

No anaesthetic???

That Vet should be docked himself. :mad: You worked with a prize lemon there.

I know, it was absolutely horrible, I left after that and never went back to work for him again.

seamus

pokertalk wrote: »

he is 2 1/2 .im not going to get it done as he is in no discomfort now with it so there is no point. but in the future it might have to go:eek:

It might be worth working now on calming techniques - you can train the dog to do certain things when they get excited - such as sit and wait for you to pet them or to get into their bed. The aim would be to get the dog to sit still, so he can still wag to his heart's content but without banging it off everything.

kaiser sauze

My dogs have no problems defecating and having a docked tail.

sligopark

john t wrote: »

It is a form of mutilation and is wrong.

is this a time to bring up the legality of circumcision?

kaiser sauze

sligopark wrote: »

is this a time to bring up the legality of circumcision?

Oh, dear...:p

Cherry Blossom

sligopark wrote: »

is this a time to bring up the legality of circumcision?

This is the animal and pet issues forum

ADAlliance

kaiser sauze wrote: »

If done within the first few days, on the 3rd or 4th day preferably, there is little pain as nerve endings are still in development.

It would be an exceptionally bad dock to have any risk of infection. The mother will keep any wound clean.

From where do you get this "scientific" information...?!

please see http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/page_14.htm and http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/Page_4.htm

It is much more likely from scientific research that they receive MORE pain since the nerve pathways have NOT developed. This may sound contradictory but it is necessary to comprehend current thinking on neural development in order to understand how pain pathways mature.

Normally stitches are inserted when done by a Vet and these can become infected if the dam licks the area (as can also happen with banding).

kaiser sauze

ADAlliance wrote: »

From where do you get this "scientific" information...?!

please see http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/page_14.htm and http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/Page_4.htm

It is much more likely from scientific research that they receive MORE pain since the nerve pathways have NOT developed. This may sound contradictory but it is necessary to comprehend current thinking on neural development in order to understand how pain pathways mature.

Normally stitches are inserted when done by a Vet and these can become infected if the dam licks the area (as can also happen with banding).

My information is from actual observation, not parroting a link to a study that I have no input into.

If I had ever noticed any issues, such as atrophied musculature or balance issues in any of the puppies that I have bred, I would stop immediately.