Series Link - on SaorView?

slicedpanman

Does anyone know if the SaorView spec includes support for Series Link?
Also, can anyone tell if RTENL are transmitting CRID data to support Series Link?

galtee boy

Tesco UK now selling Technicka Freeview+HD Pvr for £160. Freeview HD means compatible with Saorview. But can anyone tell me, if and when series link is activated on Saorview, will UK Freeview+HD boxes recognise it and be able to use it ?

lgs 4

slicedpanman wrote: »

Does anyone know if the SaorView spec includes support for Series Link?
Also, can anyone tell if RTENL are transmitting CRID data to support Series Link?

and dolby digital

fat-tony

The Nordig Unified specification contains an extensive description of CRID values and treatment for series linking for PVRs in Chapter 12 and 14. I would assume that any PVR manufacturer proposing to launch a suitable device would be using this specification. As to whether RTENL will be carrying series link data via programme and series CRIDs, that's another issue. Maybe someone who is familiar with the inner workings of RTENL might venture an opinion on whether the service will be provided in time. My guess is that it will as it's an essential part of the operation of any PVR. A standard receiver (non-PVR) doesn't need to be aware of series linking. My Sony TV has the capability of flagging items in the EPG with a "reminder", where it will switch to that programme at a future date.

watty

Dolby Digital (aka AC3) is just a different less efficent codec designed for Cinema. For Stereo there is no advantage. For surround (5.1) there is only point on material that has it (i.e. Films). The 5.1 adds a lot of overhead. It's unlikely to be used terrestrially. More efficient is AAC+ aka HE-AAC for stereo or surround. You can transcode AC3 5.1 to ANY true four channel system and lose almost nothing.
Centre = L +R
The .1 is only Bass effects. You can feed it with <25Hz sum of all channels.

So..
Dolby Digital:
Only applies to Cinematic content
Such content cost TV company more if it has 5.1 rather than Stereo
AC3 transmission takes much more space.

DD aka AC3 aka Dolby Surround AKA 5.1 can be down mixed to Stereo, and if done properly a home theatre amp will recreate the .1 channel perfectly, the centre channel quite well and the two rear channels poorly, but convincingly.

AAC+ (aka HE-AAC) multichannel / Surround can carry 5.1 pretty much perfectly and about 1/2 to 1/3rd of the multiplex space.

Actual "real" 5.1 is only on Cinema releases.
Zero advantage to Stereo (aka 2.0) or 2.1 DD (Dolby Digital, AC3) vs MP2 stereo or HE-AAC (AAC+) Stereo. Disadvantage is it takes more space than HE-AAC.

bbbbb

galtee boy wrote: »

Freeview HD means compatible with Saorview.

Are you sure?
A regular freeview box can't be used to receive Saorview.

Newtown90

bbbbb wrote: »

Are you sure?
A regular freeview box can't be used to receive Saorview.

Freeview hd can be used for the dtt :D

I thought the same as you but was proved wrong!

Different tuner in it or something!!;)

STB

bbbbb wrote: »

Are you sure?
A regular freeview box can't be used to receive Saorview.

1.A regular Freeview box = MPEG2 via dvb-t

2. Irish DTT = MPEG4 via dvb-t

3. A Freeview HD Box = MPEG4 via dvb-t2

No 3. will do all three. As MPEG4 on dvb-t2 is backward compatible with both 1. and 2.

fat-tony

galtee boy wrote: »

Tesco UK now selling Technicka Freeview+HD Pvr for £160. Freeview HD means compatible with Saorview. But can anyone tell me, if and when series link is activated on Saorview, will UK Freeview+HD boxes recognise it and be able to use it ?

See my previous post regarding the Nordig spec.
The issue with series link data (Programme and Series CRIDs) is that it is encoded in a proprietary way so that it's unlikely that a PVR developed for one system can utilise it fully in another. The Freesat CRID data is held in compressed tables so that it is only usable (theoretically) by badged Freesat recorders. Some PC-based applications can parse the Freesat EPG data and use the CRID info for their PVR functions.
I'm not sure if the UK Freeview (as opposed to Freesat) CRID data is compressed or encoded in any way (I know the BBC were talking about compressing the info similar to Freesat so that they could restrict the free recording and distribution of HD programme material), but I'm sure someone who has access to the DVB-T streams could check. I can only parse DVB-S data or the Saorview streams.

watty

STB wrote: »

bbbbb wrote: »

Are you sure?
A regular freeview box can't be used to receive Saorview.

1.A regular Freeview box = MPEG2 via dvb-t [ No Saorview ]

2. Irish DTT = MPEG4 via dvb-t [ Backward compatible to Freeview MPEG2 ]

3. A Freeview HD Box = MPEG4 via dvb-t2

No 3. will do all three. As MPEG4 on dvb-t2 is backward compatible with both 1. and 2.

Let me know folks if I can make this clearer...
http://www.saortv.info/about/n-i-digital/

Do we actually know if RTE NL will use some Nordig method or MHEG5 to do Series link or even ever bother?

Peddyr

galtee boy wrote: »

Tesco UK now selling Technicka Freeview+HD Pvr for £160. Freeview HD means compatible with Saorview. But can anyone tell me, if and when series link is activated on Saorview, will UK Freeview+HD boxes recognise it and be able to use it ?

The only one that fits that description that I can find on the Tesco UK site is here http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.208-9147.aspx at £200. Can you provide a link to where it's available for £160 please?

slicedpanman

fat-tony wrote: »

See my previous post regarding the Nordig spec.
The issue with series link data (Programme and Series CRIDs) is that it is encoded in a proprietary way so that it's unlikely that a PVR developed for one system can utilise it fully in another. The Freesat CRID data is held in compressed tables so that it is only usable (theoretically) by badged Freesat recorders. Some PC-based applications can parse the Freesat EPG data and use the CRID info for their PVR functions.
I'm not sure if the UK Freeview (as opposed to Freesat) CRID data is compressed or encoded in any way (I know the BBC were talking about compressing the info similar to Freesat so that they could restrict the free recording and distribution of HD programme material), but I'm sure someone who has access to the DVB-T streams could check. I can only parse DVB-S data or the Saorview streams.

Thanks fat-tony... that was one of my worries - I had been thinking that I might risk getting the Humax Freeview HD PVR and keep my fingers crossed that then RTENL started broascasting the CRIDs that it would work. But I think I'll relax and wait and see

fat-tony

No sign of any Saorview PVR yet, never mind any basic receivers other than Walker, but as you see elsewhere in the forum, many of the mainstream manufacturers have compatible TVs available (except the issue over some Panasonic models). Until RTE decides and publishes what it is going to do as regards series inking it would be a gamble buying any existing PVR specifically for Saorview except for basic recording or using the timed/repeat record facilities. The existing EPG (in the SI datastream) is pretty basic, doesn't always have full programme details and still has Val Joyce immortalised as the presenter of Late Date on Radio 1 each weeknight! The clock on the EPG is slow by about 45 seconds, but the now/next info seems to change at the appropriate times, though. I'm sure that RTE/NL will get more accuracy and detail into it over the coming months.

galtee boy

Peddyr wrote: »

The only one that fits that description that I can find on the Tesco UK site is here http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.208-9147.aspx at £200. Can you provide a link to where it's available for £160 please?

It was a phone call from my brother in London. He saw it in Tesco, New Malden on Saturday last, at that price. It may have been an instore promotion. I have been in that store and it's one of the biggest and busiest Tesco's I have seen anywhere. Something like 85 checkout desks !

Apogee

fat-tony wrote: »

I'm not sure if the UK Freeview (as opposed to Freesat) CRID data is compressed or encoded in any way (I know the BBC were talking about compressing the info similar to Freesat so that they could restrict the free recording and distribution of HD programme material), but I'm sure someone who has access to the DVB-T streams could check. I can only parse DVB-S data or the Saorview streams.

From what I've read, the Freeview+ data is neither compressed or encoded. It looks like some Humax Freeview+ PVRs can be made display the CRID information. I haven't come across any examples where people have read the data using a PC, but it surely must be possible.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/pvrs-vcrs/1333907-hidden-service-menu-humax-hdr-fox-t2-also-hd-fox-t2-foxsat-hdr.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV-Anytime

I would imagine that if we ever see Series Link on Saorview/Saorsat it will be based on Freeview+ rather than Freesat+ (which was botched together to get around Sky's system).

Mr McBoatface

If you are using a HTPC running Mediaportal it's actually possible to set up series link on the RTE1 & 2, TV3, TG4 and 3e, but you need both a DVB-T & DVB-S/S2 card installed.

There is a mod available that allows users to pull SKY's EPG including series link data direct from the DVB-S/S2 source. Mediaportal allows users to combine channels together, if fact you can choose just to combine the EPG data from a DVB-S source with the signal from a DVB-T source. So for example you can combine Sky's EPG data for RTE 1 with RTENL's RTE 1 signal.

I've been using MP for years but just figured out I could map SKY's EPG data to RTENL transmissions, I'm experimenting with this set-up and have been impressed, the series link works a treat.

If I remember correctly I think the of the developer of the SKY EPG mod said it would not be hard to add series link to Freeview EPG in MP and he would look into it. Hopefully if he gets around to implementing the Freeview EPG/series link then saorview's would work too.

fat-tony

I know that PC applications can parse the EPG data and make guesses at what constitutes a series of programmes (I referred to PC software in an earlier reply), but the question was about actual PVR hardware and firmware which depends on unambiguous data to link programmes. The CRID data from SI stream on DVB-T would be one such source or perhaps similar data in MHEG-5. Until RTE indicate which method they are going to use then it's guesswork as to what PVR will work properly. BBC have been making noises about compressing the CRID data for HD programmes on Freeview, but it doesn't seem to be happening yet so the data seems to be freely available for the moment for any standard PVR to use. The Freeview system in Australia seems to have similar issues as regards open availability of CRID data for non-badged PVRs.

Mr McBoatface

fat-tony wrote: »

I know that PC applications can parse the EPG data and make guesses at what constitutes a series of programmes (I referred to PC software in an earlier reply), but the question was about actual PVR hardware and firmware which depends on unambiguous data to link programmes.

Hi Tony I was responding to the remark made by Apogee.

Apogee wrote: »

From what I've read, the Freeview+ data is neither compressed or encoded. It looks like some Humax Freeview+ PVRs can be made display the CRID information. I haven't come across any examples where people have read the data using a PC, but it surely must be possible.

fat-tony

I had no issue with Apogee's comments. He was confirming that Freeview CRID data was "in the clear" but was unsure whether PC applications were actually using it. You perhaps answered a different question in how Mediaportal was using some form of matching logic to stitch together series link info. This is not necessarily using CRID data.
CRID information is highly structured and unambiguous data which provides unique programme and series info to PVRs. The Humax Freesat PVR can display the programme and series info CRID on screen. I have a Freesat EPG parser which can display the same info. Any PC application which has access to the relevant Huffman tables can process Freesat CRID info. It would seem that Freeview CRID info is currently accessible without needing any special tables. This may change in future should BBC succeed in their aim of making series-linked access to HD material limited to Freeview-badged devices. The current range of Freesat-badged PVRs encrypt HD material to limit free copying/distribution of recorded programmes. BBC are trying to do the same with Freeview.

Mr McBoatface

Tony, I meant to add this link to my original post. While the developer was specifically addressing Freesat CRID data, I believe he has also stated on other occasions that the same could be done for Freeview, hopefully Saorview CRID data would be of the same format and could also be also read in that software.

The point I was trying to make was that it looks like MP will in a future release will be able to read the series link info in the CRID data and include it in the software's EPG. The developers of the MP are working on a future release that will have an updated EPG engine to allow for the inclusion of series link info from the CRID data.

Currently Sky's EPG/series link system can be integrated into the current MP EPG engine via the modification that I linked to earlier. I don't believe a matching logic is used, the SKY Series ID which is extracted when the EPG updates is used.

I know it's not really relevant to the OP question I was just trying to address Apogee's statement on the ability of a PC software to read CRID data. It's also nice info for some of the many user on the forum who use HTPC's for Saorview and Satellite to be aware of.

Apogee

jobyrne30 wrote: »

I know it's not really relevant to the OP question I was just trying to address Apogee's statement on the ability of a PC software to read CRID data. It's also nice info for some of the many user on the forum who use HTPC's for Saorview and Satellite to be aware of.

I'm looking for an analysis application which can be used to interrogate the Freeview+ series link CRID and display it, much like you can with the secret Menu in the Humax receivers. So that we could check if RTÉ ever transmit the CRID data or not.

Interesting that it can read the 'series link' info from the Sky EPG. I was only aware of it being able to read the EPG programme information using the compression tables, and not the series link data as well. I don't think the plugins (like CrossEPG) support that for the Linux boxes yet. Would be a useful addition. But the OpenTV system is likely to be quite different from Freeview+.

Can the HTPC apps pull series link data from the Freesat EPG?

[edit]This might be worth a look - EPG Collector
http://epgcollector.sourceforge.net/

Mr McBoatface

I was going to mention EPG Collector, it's used along with some other tools by many user over on AVForums for populating Windows7 with the Freesat/SKY EPG. I'm not sure if it can add series link to the MCE EPG, I've never actually used it.

Regarding MP it can't currently add series link info from CRID to it's EPG there is some sort of data table in the MP EPG that needs updating. Maybe with the release of upcoming MP version 1.2 or more likely the later version 2.0 the CRID series link data can be displayed. This would be very useful for Freeview and indeed Saorview.

The two guys developing the MP Sky EPG system seem to be very capable software engineers and they seem to have an excellent knowledge the OPENTV and CRID systems used by broadcasters. Their latest release is designed to read SKY UK's EPG and series link and populate it to the MP EPG. It can group channels in the same categories as per the SKY menu i.e. "Entertainment","Lifestyle & Culture", "Movies" etc. It can also create an EPG menu to resemble the region variant so BBC1/2 NI will display if you select Northern Ireland as your location. Furthermore just like a SKY or Freesat box MP can now preform an automatic scan of SKY's current channel listing and update/remove obsolete channels so you never have to rescan when a channel changes transponder :cool:.

It's an alpha release with some small bugs but it working fine for me on my test rig They are looking to add the same functionality for SKY IT, SKY AUS, Nova, UPC, Digital Plus etc. Excellent stuff altogether !