Guy Fawkes: Hero or Villain?

OutlawPete

"Remember, Remember the 5th of november.."

Poor old Guy Fawkes .. across the uisce, they'll be burning effigies of the man all night long.

Sure was he that bad a lad at all really?

Okay, he was labeled a terrorist, buts sure aren't we all somebody's terriost at the end of the day. After-all, we are talking about King James here, not Florence fecking Nightingale. The very man responsible for the Ulster Plantation and clearly his goal was to convert all Catholic Irish into Protestants.

Okay, fair enough .. it was Elizibeth the bitch, that started the whole plantation malarkey, but she made a mess of it ffs. Sure didn't Mountjoy nearly bankrupt England as he went about murdering wimminz and childer in the process of the botched Munster job.

Some would say he defeated the lads, O'Neill and O'Donnell - up on the hill yonder, but I'll not have it :mad:

Then just like the Spanish students come today and crowd our footpaths and make a very nuisance of themselves, their ancestors came to the wrong end of the country altogether like, and our chiefs were trapped up the other end, in Ulster.

Yeah, Olé Olé there lads ..

So, for the craic - didn't the Ulster Chief boys head off see King Jimmy and take the titles of Earls in return for Mellifont, but the craic lasted not long as the English lords in Ulster were mad jealous that these Gaelic lads were swanning around with the titles of Earls and so the bastards only went and spread the rumour that they were planning another rebellion.

With the famine in Ulster and the boys stone broke, sure they were marked men and had to take flight .. and so then the door was wide open for the tyrannical feckers to confiscate all the land back and sure the Ulster Plantation was as easy then as getting Jim Corr to believe in shapeshifting.

They planted Protestant English and Scottish settlers all over Ulster and these new "landowners" weren't allowed to have Irish tenants of course

Despite the success of the plantation (cough cough .. theft theft, pure theft), King Jammy remained in fear of another uprising of course and sure we all know what happened next :cool:


So, Guy Fawkes .. a bad man .. or an unrecognized hero??

Yes, he failed - but should we measure our heros just on what results they get?

Is a Fireman not a hero if he dies trying to save a child?

Is a soldier not a hero if he pulls the pin from a grenade, but drops it before getting a chance to throw it?

Come on, what if King James had died in that Gunpowder Plot?

Maybe the Ulster Plantation would never have happened.

Think about it people ..

Guy Fawkes: Hero or Villain?

"..the only man ever to enter Parliament with honest intentions.."

Snowie

Villain

hero same things need to happen to the dail if you ask me :cool:

jmcc

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

hero same things need to happen to the dail if you ask me :cool:

Yes but it would require some serious planning to get all the useless tossers in the Dail and the Seanad at the same time.

Given that the history of Guy Fawkes' period was quite complex, I voted Wtf! as it is not a simple hero/villain question.

Regards...jmcc

Irish Guitarist

Guy Fawkes wasn't actually the mastermind of the gunpowder plot. He was just the one that was unlucky enough to have got caught. The real mastermind was Robert Catesby.

I was watching a documentary a couple of days ago that said if the gunpowder plot had have been a success it would have made things worse for Catholics. Just like 9/11 made Americans all patriotic, the gunpowder plot would have made Protestants even more staunch in their beliefs. I think they were probably right.

PanchoVilla

I couldn't vote as you left out "unwitting pawn of the Catholic Church". The Gunpowder Plot was little more than attempt by the Church to reclaim Britain as a Catholic country. It was all just games for power played by people who should never be given such power to begin with.

Black Swan

I thought Guy Fawkes was planted. Now we are digging him up?

koHd

This post starts off like a bit of fun...then as I read I realize you've snook in a history lesson disguised with such words as 'lads' and 'craic'. Shame on you. Shame on you.

domkk

Wtf!

We have made our guy. Cant wait to sit him on top of the fire tonight. Anyone for a piece of bonfire toffee?

OutlawPete

koHd wrote: »

This post starts off like a bit of fun...then as I read I realize you've snook in a history lesson disguised with such words as 'lads' and 'craic'. Shame on you. Shame on you.

:mad:

Dr. No

It's raining over here at the moment so I might have some trouble lighting my bonfire.

LordSutch

Wtf!

OutlawPete wrote: »

Guy Fawkes: Hero or Villain?

Villian > wasn't he trying to blow up the houses of Parliament?

OutlawPete

LordSutch wrote: »

Villian > wasn't he trying to blow up the houses of Parliament?

Tis true m'Lord .. but the King was not a man of peace and Catholics suffered greatly as they had done also under Elizabeth's reign.

Sure King Jimmy's mammy was even a Catholic .. had he no compassion in him at all like?

No, Guy was a noble gent Sir, a noble gent indeed.

Dunjohn

Wtf!

Villain. There was no option for "idiot," so villain it is. You don't need to be a history major to figure out what the consequences would have been. Probably extermination. Sure, it might have inspired some Catholics to rise but idiots like him always forget what these acts inspire the opposition to do, too.

bnt

Wtf!

Had the US authorities succeeded in preventing the 9/11 attacks, you can bet they'd be celebrating that day too.

After all these years - and with examples such as South Africa 1899-1902, Ireland 1916, India up to 1947, Spain under Franco, or the Falklands War - why do people still think you can achieve lasting political success through violent means? The British Empire in particular would not negotiate with terrorists at all - but were amenable to peaceful negotiations. South Africa was practically independent by 1910, and India's independence had more to do with Mahatma Gandhi and his non-violent protests than any number of "rebels". Guy Fawkes was a patsy, a fall guy, but had he succeeded, what do you think would have happened in Ireland? :eek:

Snakeblood

He didn't even get to bang Natalie Portman. :mad:

OutlawPete

bnt wrote: »

..what do you think would have happened in Ireland? :eek:

English Catholics would have suffered no question, those poor beggars would have been slaugtered without foreign support.

However, the Nine Year War had all but bankrupt the British and so they made Earls of the Ulster lads.

If the Gunpowder Plot had of been successful, they would have not taken flight ..