Is it time to make the SWP and company proscribed organisations?

Amhran Nua

On foot of the events at the recent mostly peaceful student protests, there seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence that the protest was hijacked and trouble started by the SWP and the usual far left rent a crowd types:

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The USI rep on the Last Word was not happy with how the protest was hijacked by the usual mob of socialists, republicans and others of that ilk.

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Exactly right too. I was outside the dept of finance earlier and it was all socialist and sinn fein flags in the doorway. they started the trouble, not the students.

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At least one good thing to come from twitter was the early flagging of who was starting the trouble and all media reports I have heard since have reported this and by and large absolve the students. Of course you will have a number of eejits getting sucked in.

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I couldn't believe it today when I saw a group of these "student protesters" carrying Palestinian flags That said, they probably weren't students but rather the usual far-left loonies that live to hi-jack legitimate protests.

Any of our resident apologists care to explain the connection between Palestine and the re-introduction of third level fees?

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It seems protest was hi-jacked alright, but the sight of gardaí on horseback cantering down O' Connell street towards protestors does not make for a good "sound bite."

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The Gardai caused the trouble? Must have been a different protest I was watching......."attack dogs"! what happened the rabid dogs from earlier - downgraded?

The peaceful protest (and the mojority were there to protest peacfully) was taken over by an element of thuggary (probably the same "rent-a-thug" you get at a lot of these gatherings) who only wanted to cause trouble, incite the rest of the group to cause trouble and as a result cause mayhem in the city centre.
If the guards did not nip it in the bud when they did then I've no idea what could have happened.
I've dealt with some right d1ckhead5 in my time and there were a few there I recognised. No harm to get a bit of rough treatment. They ruined what was a really good peacful protest and instead of talking about the issues and what was highlighted the media and indeed all on here are talking about some mild violence.
Idiots.

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Hmmm there were an awful lot of "mature students" with SWP banners eh.

As for Gardai moving people along, what did you expect them do let the protest disrupt all the other people trying to get along with their lives in the area.

I feel sorry for the students, there was a great turnout and on the whole it was a very well behaved protest about a very valid gripe. It was hijacked by the usual assortment of idiots who are doing this at any sort of protest these days.

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Hijacking legitimate anger is the SWP's Raison d'être. Get young idealistic students early in fresher week, and get them signed up, use them as glorified paper boys and girls, to sell their rag, Within a few weeks they get fed up with "politics" and give up. The SWP is the most harmful organisation for young left wing student politics in this country.

There are probably a lot more but those are the ones I picked up.

I have my phone number added to one of their text lists, to keep an eye on things, and regularly receive messages about meeting to "radicalise the unions" among other things. My own small organisation has already had to eject several entryists from the ranks, and this pattern has been repeated throughout every new political group I have had contact with, which comes to over a dozen. No matter how well meaning a group or a protest, there is a fanatical hard core of far left extremists attempting to radicalise it, recruit within it, and bring some sort of red dawn forward. This has also led to a lot of organisations (no to NAMA for example) falling apart, as disillusioned members fade away leaving them hollow.

It's impossible to hold a protest without them showing up. Is it time therefore that we recognised that the SWP and its sock puppets do not have the best interests of the people of Ireland at heart, but are instead a self perpetuating cult-like organisation willing to do almost anything to advance its interests, and add them to the list of proscribed organisations, as detrimental to the future of the nation, or would that be an overreaction?

Wolfe Tone

Huge overreaction.

Who else would you ban? Didn't know you were a fascist.

Biggins

Over-reaction and besides, it would push them underground and we know the consequences of that route!

Amhran Nua

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Huge overreaction.

Don't leave us hanging, tell us why.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Who else would you ban? Didn't know you were a fascist.

You may note the title and tone of the thread are phrased as questions, I'm not making any statements. Usually its the people who don't like questions being asked who better qualify for the fascist sobriquet, also a notable hallmark of cults. Genuine attempts to reform and address the problems in the country are being stymied by these groups, in my opinion, would you disagree with this?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Eliot Rosewater

The issue, basically, is whether or not the SWP is an inherently violent group. I'm using the word "violent" here very broadly: I would class what happened yesterday as violence.

I think one should be extremely careful here. Firstly, repressing a political group should be a very very last resort, if a resort at all. For such repression to be justified it would have to be shown that the group are violent; that the kind of nonsense perpetrated yesterday was intentionally organized by the party.

Secondly, there's the issue of them going underground, as Biggins mentions. Members of the SWP etal are currently throwing bricks and paint at people; what will they start throwing if they are banned? I've talked to these people and they do live in an alternative reality where abusing members of the Gardaí is seen as a legitimate form of protest. On one of their Facebook groups someone asked, in response to the riots yesterday, "Are ye proud of yourselves now?" One of them answered "Yes, I am."

They see absolutely nothing wrong with violence and law-breaking as a way to make a point. So if you force these people under the radar, what will they start doing?


A postscript regarding the entryism: it's annoying, I know, but I don't think it is justification for them being restricted.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Do students giving off about the protestors not realise their silent peaceful protest would simply have been ignored and sometimes civil disobedience is necessary.

Byron85

I was involved with the SWP for a while and was at one stage asked to head up a "youth wing". I haven't been involved with them for a few years now and not everyone involved is a violent lunatic in the same way that everyone on the right isn't a gun wielding anti-abortion lunatic. Most of what I did when in the group was of a peaceful nature.

Amhran Nua

Byron85 wrote: »

Most of what I did when in the group was of a peaceful nature.

Eh, if not its perfectly understandable, but if you could elaborate on that bit it would be enlightening.

Byron85

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Eh, if not its perfectly understandable, but if you could elaborate on that bit it would be enlightening.

Actually I just realised what I did there. Apologies. I say most of what I did because I went on a number of marches and some people might not construe that as not peaceful even though the marches themselves, my behaviour and the behaviour of my friends was peaceful.

southsiderosie

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This I agree with. Part of the problem is, outside of the far left and the anti-abortion people, I think a lot of protest "organizers" in Ireland are kind of inexperienced. Were there marshals on the marches? Were they trained before hand?

If some of these far-left groups really cared about the direction of the country, rather than their own political agenda, they would stop hijacking protests, in part because it makes everyone else reluctant to come out. Plus they show up to EVERYTHING, so it's not like they are even that effective.

That said, I don't think they should be banned outright, but they are an absolute ****ing headache for anyone trying to organize an even remotely progressive protest.

Amhran Nua

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

A bit of a tangent here, but if they refuse to vacate a peaceful protest, what would the students do, try to outpace them? I'm not saying one thing or another by that, just pondering possible outcomes.

Wolfe Tone

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Do students giving off about the protestors not realise their silent peaceful protest would simply have been ignored and sometimes civil disobedience is necessary.

Agreed.


The airwaves are clogged with discussions about the protests. If it was not for the violence etc, the protest would be forgotten. We certainly would not be talking about it as much. Instead we have USI heads coming on the radio with the opportunity to say why they were marching etc, and to discuss fees in general.

southsiderosie

Amhran Nua wrote: »

A bit of a tangent here, but if they refuse to vacate a peaceful protest, what would the students do, try to outpace them? I'm not saying one thing or another by that, just pondering possible outcomes.

Part of my old job involved organizing protests in Miami. No matter what the theme, there would inevitably be some right-wing anti-Castro lunatic with three sings and a Cuban flag cape who would try to jump to the front to get on camera. You can't really reason with some of these people - because they are the first to scream about free speech even as they try and shout everyone else down - so the best you can do is have march marshals keep an eye on them, and surround them with people carrying bigger signs and flags. Usually we would also assign a marshal a megaphone to lead chants right next to where they were, in order to drown out whatever nonsense they were trying to shout about.

We've also gotten around some of these issues via rules from the police themselves. For example, for a really contentious march, we weren't allowed to make picket signs with wood sticks - they had to be cardboard. Well, guess who didn't get the memo?

Amhran Nua

southsiderosie wrote: »

We've also gotten around some of these issues via rules from the police themselves. For example, for a really contentious march, we weren't allowed to make picket signs with wood sticks - they had to be cardboard. Well, guess who didn't get the memo?

Interesting. Were there any techniques for dealing with violent agitators from whatever source, people hiding bottles under their jackets and so on?

Sleepy

How about a far less over-bearing tactic: simply jail or deport anyone found guilty of violence at these events. The numbers that make up the violent idiots of these groups can't be more than a couple of hundred.

Take them off the streets and then if the peaceful members of these organisations show up to other groups protests they should be easily contained / marshalled...

DeVore

I've been complaining about these "groups" hijacking protests for ages. They have done far more harm then good. How many people are going to be put off protesting outside the dail on budget day now? I know I was going but now... I dont want to get caught between mounted cops and brick throwing idiots. I'll probably still go but if it heads that direction then I'm leaving and in the days coming up to the budget I'll be considering carefully the likelihood of it being hi-jacked.

DeV.

sponsoredwalk

Excuse me but when people, in a free society, choose to go to a protest
waiving pro-Palestinian flags that is hardly them taking over the f'ing
protest.

Furthermore, if the SWP members are getting violent don't you all think that
because you are all so active in politics you'd be smart enough to do
something I'm sure you've all heckled others about not doing, namely
writing letters in huge numbers to the SWP scolding them for
allowing their members to resort to thuggery and giving those who can't
think beyond the gut reaction some ammunition.

Before I go further I just have one simple request, any evidence it was
the SWP and not just randomers at this, or any other, rally???

If it is the SWP and you can provide evidence of them doing it at all of
these rallies then I'll help you out, I have an idea of how to affect this,
but if you're just looking for someone to blame and are just as quick to
scapegoat as the people you've quoted in your OP then I have no
sympathy.

Dozen Wicked Words

Sleepy wrote: »

How about a far less over-bearing tactic: simply jail or deport anyone found guilty of violence at these events. The numbers that make up the violent idiots of these groups can't be more than a couple of hundred.

Take them off the streets and then if the peaceful members of these organisations show up to other groups protests they should be easily contained / marshalled...

Internment?

HivemindXX

southsiderosie wrote: »

Were there marshals on the marches? Were they trained before hand?

There were marshals. I saw people with jackets identifying themselves as such shepherding the crowd as they spread out on to the path going around college green.

I think there's a limit to what actual peaceful protesters and their marshals can do to stop hijackers from doing their own thing.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Before I go further I just have one simple request, any evidence it was
the SWP and not just randomers at this, or any other, rally???

There is at least one eyewitness report in the quotes from the OP which indicates that they were responsible for at least part of the trouble. You may take it up with that poster if you wish.

Sleepy

No. Arrest or deportation for non-Irish citizens.

Public disorder and violence against members of AGS are crimes.

gandalf

DeVore wrote: »

I've been complaining about these "groups" hijacking protests for ages. They have done far more harm then good. How many people are going to be put off protesting outside the dail on budget day now? I know I was going but now... I dont want to get caught between mounted cops and brick throwing idiots. I'll probably still go but if it heads that direction then I'm leaving and in the days coming up to the budget I'll be considering carefully the likelihood of it being hi-jacked.

DeV.

That outlines my view as well. Considering I have lost my job recently I too was considering marching at that protest as well (probably with camera in hand!). But knowing that idiots like the SWP and the thugs from Eirigi will be there as well will probably dissuade me. The last thing I want is to be caught in trouble because some git wants to be a anarchist pin up hero.

I do think that prescribing the SWP would be a counter-productive move though and would play into their obvious victim politics even more.

I think Sleepy has hit the nail on the head here. We are too soft on those who have caused trouble at these protests. They should be charged and found guilty of violent crimes. Video evidence should be examined and anyone clearly identified from them throwing missiles should be charged.

I also believe that organisations like the USI who have a very valid reason for protesting should be very vocal in telling the SWP and their hangers on to keep away from any future protests and their marshals should work with the Gardai in excluding them from marches when they are identified as taking part.

Scrambled egg

Having attended the protest march yesterday and seen the violence and the types who initiated it, perhaps something must be done about the likes of the SWP and the other extreme left interests who were there.

Throughout the march I was mindful of the red banners and the leaflets that they were giving out , and how very little of what they distributed was actually about the fees. I received leaflets on the military industrial complex and seminars on the teachings of Marx. All of which is well and good, but totally irrelevant yesterday.

When I stood at a distance watching the protest outside the Dept of Finance, red flags were the most prominent at the very front of the building , in front of the Garda cordon. Needless to say , it was these flag bearers who started the trouble with the egg throwing and militant behavior. And then , after the peaceful sit-down protest outside the Dail , when the bloke organizing the thing , called it quits and told everyone to leave peacefully, we had one of the SWP on a microphone complaining telling us to go nowhere and how the Guards pushed him , he was quickly jeered and told to F*%k off.

The SWP and the likes are tiny organisations which don't have the support of anybody. If they organised a protest march nobody would turn up , which is why I think they feel the need to hijack other protests with their free Palestine rhetoric and hang the bankers lark. It seems unreasonable to even consider banning them as it comes across as undemocratic, but perhaps if the organizers made clear to the leaders of these organizations that they are not welcome on the march , then perhaps they won't interfere.

Just my two cents

southsiderosie

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Excuse me but when people, in a free society, choose to go to a protest
waiving pro-Palestinian flags that is hardly them taking over the f'ing
protest.

No, it is diluting the message. The only signs should be promoting the message, and the only flags should be national flags (or flags relating to the actual matter at hand).

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Furthermore, if the SWP members are getting violent don't you all think that
because you are all so active in politics you'd be smart enough to do
something I'm sure you've all heckled others about not doing, namely
writing letters in huge numbers to the SWP scolding them for
allowing their members to resort to thuggery and giving those who can't
think beyond the gut reaction some ammunition.

Many of these groups do not give a **** about what other groups think, and are only there to promote their own agenda. Hence leaflets and flags about issues that have nothing to do with the matter at hand. I do think that march coordinators need to talk to other groups, in part to demand a coherent consistent message, but I think some of this is just inexperience.

The broader issue, however, is that the behavior of the SWP and affiliated groups at pretty much every non-right wing protest in Ireland has put off a large number of people from participating in anything. They need to cop the **** on.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Before I go further I just have one simple request, any evidence it was
the SWP and not just randomers at this, or any other, rally???

SWP, eirigi, communists and anarcists come with flags and are easy to spot; there are videos all over youtube and photostreams all over twitter and flickr. My connection is running to slowly right now to hotlink.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

If it is the SWP and you can provide evidence of them doing it at all of
these rallies then I'll help you out, I have an idea of how to affect this,
but if you're just looking for someone to blame and are just as quick to
scapegoat as the people you've quoted in your OP then I have no
sympathy.

There is a great deal of material online; check it out.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There is at least one eyewitness report in the quotes from the OP which indicates that they were responsible for at least part of the trouble. You may take it up with that poster if you wish.

Oh jesus... I'm sorry, I have noticed your posts many times, I do respect your
posts & I do respect the fact that you take on difficult arguments in
with a logical perspective but here I think this is nothing but an witch-hunt
whereby you wish to scapegoat the easy target because plenty
of people disagree with the SWP.

Lets just be on the safe side though. Lets assume the SWP ARE the
cause of these protests. Please read this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68850931#post68850931
and spread the word to everyone to follow this line of approach. I think
your, and many people's, goal is to get protests to be peaceful and not to
give deniers any stupid reason to write off protests so if it is I think you'll
see this as a good idea. Please read the thread.

Di0genes

Back in my day at Shannon in the run up to the war, the problem was the SWPers unwillingness to engage in NVDA, that was seen as a problem.

Once again they find themselves tactically at odds with the groups they're supposedly protesting. with.

southsiderosie

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Interesting. Were there any techniques for dealing with violent agitators from whatever source, people hiding bottles under their jackets and so on?

These are the kinds of things that trained organizers can spot early on. Most of our events involved partnerships with a number of organizations, so if someone looked dodgy we'd try to figure out who they were with, and talk to their coordinator to "watch their guys". We did have issues with anarchists who, granted, would make really cool puppet effigies, but would come with scarves to cover their faces for when they were ready to start some mess. But most of them were pretty young, so when a bunch of big angry Puerto Ricans with megaphones told them to cut it out, they generally did. When it comes to older "Seasoned" troublemakers, a good working relationship with the police is invaluable, because we could point them out and they would keep an eye on things and not blame us (completely) if it got out of hand. But, again, I think a lot of organizers in Ireland are inexperienced, and unfortunately the Gardai don't have much experience with large peaceful protests and tend to overreact. This is a dangerous dynamic.

sponsoredwalk

southsiderosie wrote: »

No, it is diluting the message. The only signs should be promoting the message, and the only flags should be national flags (or flags relating to the actual matter at hand).

So you have a problem with people freely choosing to do what they
want in a public space, nice...

southsiderosie wrote: »

Many of these groups do not give a **** about what other groups think, and are only there to promote their own agenda. Hence leaflets and flags about issues that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Everybody promotes their own agenda, you do that with your opinion
every time you speak ffs,I hope you criticize your favourite author for
only talking about his/her book at a talk and not every single other book
in the world :rolleyes: This is merely the argument of someone who wants to
condemn those at the brunt of their argument.

As for handing out leaflets, I respect people freedom to do whatever the
hell they want within legal bounds. If you can't focus on more than one
issue at a time & if the leaflets actually distract your gaze from the
main reasons you're there then I think there are other issues you've got to
deal with first...

southsiderosie wrote: »

I do think that march coordinators need to talk to other groups, in part to demand a coherent consistent message, but I think some of this is just inexperience.

18 May there were many groups working together all speaking from one
stage, I think that one was pretty co-ordinated so they have experience
in working together. Also, I think yesterday had a consistent message,
it was about fees. Again if you get so sidetracked by people holding up
banners for Palestine and can't focus on more than one thing I really
don't know how to help you with that.

southsiderosie wrote: »

The broader issue, however, is that the behavior of the SWP and affiliated groups at pretty much every non-right wing protest in Ireland has put off a large number of people from participating in anything. They need to cop the **** on.

The behaviour of members of the protests have put off people from
attending more protests. I'm not going to instantly assume it's the SWP,
in fact if you read the link in my post above I've just contacted the SWP
demanding a response on their position. If you care as much as your
post indicates about this matter I think you should read that post and
send your own message to the SWP too, this way we can actually find out
who is behind this and try to curb it.

southsiderosie wrote: »

SWP, eirigi, communists and anarcists come with flags and are easy to spot; there are videos all over youtube and photostreams all over twitter and flickr. My connection is running to slowly right now to hotlink.

In a free society I respect a nazi's right to brandish the swastika, I don't
agree with it but if nazi's come to the protest I can distinguish between
their motive's and the motive's of the people in attendance.

southsiderosie wrote: »

There is a great deal of material online; check it out.

Yes but can you show me the material you've obviously found that
condemns the SWP for what they did yesterday.

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

here I think this is nothing but an witch-hunt whereby you wish to scapegoat the easy target because plenty of people disagree with the SWP.

On the contrary, I and others have identified the SWP and their many sock puppets as a real problem in enacting beneficial change in Ireland. And lest we forget, the problem isn't just at protest rallies - we had a regional group wiped out because the guy who volunteered to head it up scared off everyone by suddenly coming out with marxist propaganda. Any small group, and these groups always start small, will be almost certainly be targeted.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Please read the thread.

I have no intention of trying to engage with a group that acts as they do. If they aren't aware of the damage they are doing, there's not much more that can be said.

southsiderosie wrote: »

But, again, I think a lot of organizers in Ireland are inexperienced, and unfortunately the Gardai don't have much experience with large peaceful protests and tend to overreact. This is a dangerous dynamic.

Some good points and some invaluable ideas, thanks. I might post a link to this thread to the USI guys.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I have no intention of trying to engage with a group that acts as they do. If they aren't aware of the damage they are doing, there's not much more that can be said.

By this noble logic you'd think protesting was futile because trying to
communicate a message to Fianna Fail is stupid because look at the
damage they've done! If they aren't aware of the damage they're doing
then there's not much more that can be said, they wont heed the calls
of the protestors :rolleyes: It's funny that you'll try to engage Fianna Fail by
protesting but not the SWP because you've targeted them, without
any evidence other than the remarks of one poster in your OP, good stuff.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

we had a regional group wiped out because the guy who volunteered to head it up scared off everyone by suddenly coming out with marxist propaganda. Any small group, and these groups always start small, will be almost certainly be targeted.

So talking about Marx's idea's instantly aligns you with the SWP?

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

It's funny that you'll try to engage Fianna Fail by protesting

I've no particular desire to engage with FF either, if I thought that was a realistic option I wouldn't have the sig that I do; the only people who need to hear what is being said are the citizens of Ireland. If in the process FF takes notice of what's being said and acts on it, thats fine by me.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

So talking about Marx's idea's instantly aligns you with the SWP?

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... its pretty much the exact same tactic as is being used in the protests.

jackbenimble

Deploy 1 Para.

Wolfe Tone

jackbenimble wrote: »

Deploy 1 Para.

Oh the fcuking hilarity.

What a disgusting comment.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I've no particular desire to engage with FF either, if I thought that was a realistic option I wouldn't have the sig that I do; the only people who need to hear what is being said are the citizens of Ireland. If in the process FF takes notice of what's being said and acts on it, thats fine by me.

So in other words we have another political party that are willing to ignore
certain people, only this time it's FF and the SWP. I'm sorry but even
talking about protests is you interacting with FF, albeit in opposition.
Similarly by e-mail to the SWP is hardly me siding with them I've requested
a definite position on things like throwing eggs, bottles etc... i.e. all of
the stupid stuff that blacklists the possibility of successful protests.
Your response is extremely lacking, you're not interacting with the SWP
because a member of your organization spoke about Marx & because
you have second-hand evidence they are the root of all evil.
Sounds about the calber of a political party alright... :rolleyes: You'll fit
right in.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... its pretty much the exact same tactic as is being used in the protests.

If what talks like a ducks back? Your volunteer is in the SWP because he
spoke about Marx? :eek: Well then surely the SWP are baby-eating atheist
marxists!!! :eek:

What tactic btw???

If the SWP are marxists (which you'll find is something you'll actually have
to research to get an answer to) then how does that disqualify the fact
that we should request a response from them on their position in protests,
or more explicitly, their position with respect to violent actions in protests?
I've simply requested an official position but you've got the smoking gun
apparently that proves their guilt and that kind of logic is precisely
what the people want from a political party. Thanks for letting us know...

Amhran Nua

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

So in other words we have another political party that are willing to ignore certain people, only this time it's FF and the SWP.

A few dozen professional high profile economists tried to engage with FF by nationally publishing a letter pointing out the dangers of their economic policies, and were roundly ignored. What chance do you think a group of concerned citizens have?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

If the SWP are marxists (which you'll find is something you'll actually have to research to get an answer to) then how does that disqualify the fact that we should request a response from them on their position in protests, or more explicitly, their position with respect to violent actions in protests?

By all means, request a response, I will watch with interest. If something does change as a result of your initiative it is then possible that the SWP and co have joined the rest of us in the real world. I just don't see it happening, personally. The tactic is called entryism, there's a link to the definition in the OP.

sponsoredwalk

Amhran Nua wrote: »

By all means, request a response, I will watch with interest. If something does change as a result of your initiative it is then possible that the SWP and co have joined the rest of us in the real world. I just don't see it happening, personally. The tactic is called entryism, there's a link to the definition in the OP.

I'll just quickly say that unless a barrage of e-mails hit them requesting an
official response what point is there for them to respond to just me. I
can't do this by myself and it's definitely something everybody would like
clarification on, that's why I've posted it, so that everybody would do it
as well, i.e. the idea of active mass political participation.

Scofflaw

jackbenimble wrote: »

Deploy 1 Para.

And with that last unpleasant call for violence, we bid goodbye to jackbenimble until his near-inevitable re-reg.

Permabanned.

moderately,
Scofflaw

southsiderosie

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

So you have a problem with people freely choosing to do what they
want in a public space, nice...

All of your responses blithely skip past the fact that while people have a right to do what they want in public, those with a bit of cop-on will use discretion. Showing up at a protest organized by another group around a specific political agenda, and then carrying signs and flags and distributing material that have nothing to do with that agenda is disrespectful. Yes we have free speech, but a modicum of common sense is necessary.

Let me put this slightly differently:if eirigi were to organize a march commemorating the Easter Rising, and I showed up with a big Cuban flag shouting "Viva Fidel! Viva la revolucion!", I would be an asshole, and the organizers would have a right to be mad at me - even if I did it because I support armed rebellion to overthrow tyrannical regimes. And God help me if I decided to crash a commemoration event for the hunger strikers, like the one on the O'Connell street bridge a few weeks ago.

Technically people can do whatever they want - within limits - in public space. They even have the right to counter-protest (hence you tend to see both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian groups demonstrating when something big happens). And most groups that protest want as many warm bodies as possible and are happy to have supporters. But there are a band of usual suspects that protest EVERYTHING and embarrass themselves and groups that should ostensibly be political allies in the process.

PanchoVilla

Exactly right too. I was outside the dept of finance earlier and it was all socialist and sinn fein flags in the doorway. they started the trouble, not the students.

Are people seriously trying to say there are no students in the SWP or SF? Are they saying that student members of the SWP or SF have no right to join a student march? I'd like to know how the OP can explain the following pictures of numerous students wearing yellow t-shirts at the DoF. Were they all SWP or SF supporters or were they just students who decided to have their own little protest?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriatic22/sets/72157625183329457/with/5144780666/

Trying to blame the SWP or SF for what happened is absolutely ridiculous and this thread is nothing more than baseless slander and defamation. I'm not a member of either party but I agree with a lot of their policies and I'm sick of the mainstream parties (or people who just don't agree with them) trying to bash them when those parties have done nothing but harm to this country.

PanchoVilla

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I'll just quickly say that unless a barrage of e-mails hit them requesting an
official response what point is there for them to respond to just me. I
can't do this by myself and it's definitely something everybody would like
clarification on, that's why I've posted it, so that everybody would do it
as well, i.e. the idea of active mass political participation.

I guess we should also bombard the email of USI asking why so many of it's members were at the DoF.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriatic22/sets/72157625183329457/with/5144171881/

This was an action by a group of students, not an action by SF, the SWP, or the USI. Trying to blame anyone in this situation is pointless.

southsiderosie

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Trying to blame the SWP or SF for what happened is absolutely ridiculous and this thread is nothing more than baseless slander and defamation. I'm not a member of either party but I agree with a lot of their policies and I'm sick of the mainstream parties (or people who just don't agree with them) trying to bash them when those parties have done nothing but harm to this country.

The behavior of FF doesn't take away from the fact that most of the population thinks that the far-left parties and organizations are a bunch of muppets.

I documented a lot of protests in Ireland, and the same far left were pretty much guaranteed to show up at EVERYTHING carrying their own signs and leaflets, which used to drive organizers crazy. By all means come, but for God's sake, carry a banner or picket sign prepared by the organizers and act in a way that is in accordance with the wishes of the people who put the event together. When people show up ostensibly to support other protests, and then hand out their own propoganda and carry their own banners, what this says to event organizers is: "my agenda is more important than yours". And that is exactly why these groups have few political allies: they don't behave as partners, they behave as shameless self-promoters.

PanchoVilla

The following is a statement by Free Education for Everyone (FEE) regarding their action at the Department of Finance yesterday. In light of this, I think it would be wise for the OP to retract his baseless allegations that the SWP were responsible for the events outside the DoF.

Students from Free Education for Everyone (NUI Maynooth, NUI Galway) and the Students in Solidarity Network (University College Dublin, Trinity College Dublin) issued a call for a clearly visible left-wing presence on today’s demonstration against the re-introduction of third level fees, in the form of a registration fee increase or otherwise. This call was answered by student activists from a range of political organisations, including the Socialist Workers Party, Socialist Party, Workers Solidarity Movement, éirigí, the 32 CSM and others. For the most part however, the call was answered by independent students.

Up to 1,000 students joined our breakaway at Kildare Street, staging a short sit down protest outside the home of the corrupt and unaccountable political establishment of this state. Recognising the futility of marching from A to B and listening to the same speeches from aspiring politicians, many of these students joined us in marching to the Department of Finance where a sit in demonstration was held. It is the Department of Finance which is attacking ordinary working people with such vigour in recent times, and this occupation was symbolic of the anger of students and the Irish public.

http://free-education.info/press-release-a-statement-regarding-events-today-at-the-dept-of-finance/

Sticky_Fingers

Is that an anarchist flag I see? Isn't state intervention and big government such as student grants supposed to be anathema to their beliefs? Either the person bearing that flag has little or no concept of what anarchism really means implying that they really cannot afford time to protest when they should be studying or they have separate agenda to those who are there over fees.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriatic22/5144172025/in/set-72157625183329457/

muffy

As someone who was actually there at the Dept of Finance yesterday, I would like to say the SWP were urging the use of civil disobedience and were discouraging violence. No one stormed the building to gain entry. As I have mentioned, a rent-a-mob arrived and stirred up some pushing and shoving, which the gardai sat and watched from atop their horses. When the gardai used excessive force on the people sitting in the Dept of Finance, this begot the violent scenes. Again, the SWP encouraged people to remain sitting down (again, this is non violent protest/civil disobedience).
I will say I am not currently, or have I been, involved with any kind of political organisation. I went along yesterday to the Dept of Finance to engage in peaceful protesting, separate from USI (I'm not interested in their rhetoric). I have a new found respect for SWP, having previously considered them slightly ridiculous for their hi-jacking of Anti War marches, etc. The tactics they promoted yesterday were those of civil disobedience and non violence- if you are ideologically against this form of protest, then that is your view. I cannot say the same for other groups, who I will not name in the interest of, well, not pointing the finger.

Di0genes

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The following is a statement by Free Education for Everyone (FEE) regarding their action at the Department of Finance yesterday. In light of this, I think it would be wise for the OP to retract his baseless allegations that the SWP were responsible for the events outside the DoF.



http://free-education.info/press-release-a-statement-regarding-events-today-at-the-dept-of-finance/

Twenty quid for the SSF fund says that they're an SWP front.

PanchoVilla

Di0genes wrote: »

Twenty quid for the SSF fund says that they're an SWP front.

This isn't the conspiracy theories forum. If you have any evidence to support this claim, then you should probably provide it. Otherwise it's nothing but baseless allegations and contributes nothing to the discussion.

20Cent

Ban a political party over some scuffles. Crazy if Chavez did it ye'd all be calling him a dictator.

Amhran Nua

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I'd like to know how the OP can explain the following pictures of numerous students wearing yellow t-shirts at the DoF. Were they all SWP or SF supporters or were they just students who decided to have their own little protest?

I especially like this one
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriatic22/5144777990/in/set-72157625183329457/lightbox/
Where it shows all the red flags on the business end of the mounted guards and all the yellow t-shirts on the other side. It must have been some show if that's the best agitprop the cameras could manage.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Trying to blame the SWP or SF for what happened is absolutely ridiculous and this thread is nothing more than baseless slander and defamation.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

In light of this, I think it would be wise for the OP to retract his baseless allegations that the SWP were responsible for the events outside the DoF.

I've seven quotes in that OP upon which to base those allegations, note not solely aimed at the SWP, you can do what you like with that. I could probably find more, but what's the point.

muffy wrote: »

I have a new found respect for SWP, having previously considered them slightly ridiculous for their hi-jacking of Anti War marches, etc. The tactics they promoted yesterday were those of civil disobedience and non violence

USI reps are reported as having been quite disappointed at their ridiculous hijacking of this march as well. Over and over again its the same thing; its safe to say people are fed to their back teeth with it.

sponsoredwalk

muffy wrote: »

As someone who was actually there at the Dept of Finance yesterday, I would like to say the SWP were urging the use of civil disobedience and were discouraging violence. No one stormed the building to gain entry. As I have mentioned, a rent-a-mob arrived and stirred up some pushing and shoving, which the gardai sat and watched from atop their horses. When the gardai used excessive force on the people sitting in the Dept of Finance, this begot the violent scenes. Again, the SWP encouraged people to remain sitting down (again, this is non violent protest/civil disobedience).
I will say I am not currently, or have I been, involved with any kind of political organisation. I went along yesterday to the Dept of Finance to engage in peaceful protesting, separate from USI (I'm not interested in their rhetoric). I have a new found respect for SWP, having previously considered them slightly ridiculous for their hi-jacking of Anti War marches, etc. The tactics they promoted yesterday were those of civil disobedience and non violence- if you are ideologically against this form of protest, then that is your view. I cannot say the same for other groups, who I will not name in the interest of, well, not pointing the finger.

So to the OP, now that there is evidence that is just as good as
yours, i.e. a comment, that actually contradicts your perspective
what do you say? This is why I asked you for more than off-hand
comments because it gets us nowhere, but you're dead-set on
condemning the SWP because you perceive a marxist influence
and because "they aren't aware of the damage they are doing", but
here we have equal evidence (at your level) contradicting your
claims. This is hardly the caliber of the claims of a serious political
discussion and coming from someone in a new political organization that
obviously seeks to challenge them I thought we could expect more.
Here is a first-hand comment telling us they were actually
encouraging people to sit down when the guards got frisky. I mean,
who are we to believe? This is an example of why politics students
badly need a course in general science at university level, to seriously
understand the relevance of actual evidence...

All I meant in the thread requesting a response from the SWP was
to get an official clarification that they are in fact not doing the
crazy things you and SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE ON BOARDS like to
insinuate. May be it's the people in Eirigli or some other organization
whose members are doing these things but seriously, whoever is
doing things such as throwing objects, challenging guards etc... is
literally tarnishing the whole idea and if we don't work to stop these
****ers in any way possible, i.e. getting organizations to release
official condemnations of such things, there is just ample ammunition
for those wishing to tarnish the idea of protesting. It seems to be
working seeing as so many people post here talking about how they
"used to protest" etc...

I think it's a good idea to get all of these organizations to forward a
message of condemnation, I mean they are supposed to be representing
what we think, right? Are they?? If we want them to launch a
condemnation then you'd think it would be the logical thing to do?
I can hardly e-mail everyone of them in lone-ranger mode when the
whole point of an exercise like this is to show that it's the people, not
person, that feels this way. I wouldn't be posting this if I hadn't gotten
sick of reading other people's posts critical of protests because of
these violent hijacker organizations that may or may not even exist...